Integrated vs Modular

[Prophead]

No not the usual question.

I really cannot understand the reasoning for some airlines prefering young integrated students. If someone is willing to throw £60-70,000 at a course with no prospect of a job and no other means of earning then surely this is not showing good judgement.

If i am ever involved in pilot recruitment ill be looking for the modular student who has worked his a*@e off in some other job to pay his way through training.

Some people really want to fly for a living and will be more than happy flying a battered old twin around, others just want to pose in a pilots uniform and nothing but a jet is good enough.

It takes hard work, determination, good time/financial management skills and a very strong desire to fly to go the modular route.

The integrated route takes rich/mortgaged up parents or a an individual gullable enough to massively over pay for their training and borrow huge amounts of money to do it, thus paying a load of interest as well.

I suspect its the young and gullable qualities that some airlines are looking for rather than the intergrated training.

I appologise now to all those people (and i know there are many) who have worked hard to save for integrated training. Although i cannot see why you overpay so much this is not aimed at you.


Im off to hide now as i suspect a barrage of abuse to come my way:eek:

[99jolegg]

There are two sides to every coin.

If someone is willing to throw £60-70,000 at a course with no prospect of a job

There is prospect of a job, after all, CTC and OAA candidates leave the course with supposedly, a 100% and 80% chance of getting a job....variable of course. You can argue that this is a significantly higher prospect than that of a modular student. Arguable is the operative word there. Besides that, could you not argue that spending £60-70,000 shows sheer determination and motivation in itself?

If i am ever involved in pilot recruitment ill be looking for the modular student who has worked his a*@e off in some other job to pay his way through training.

Just because a candidate has opted for another route (the more expensive route) it does not mean that he / she has worked any less hard. Why ignore the fact that a candidate could well have worked hard and saved to afford integrated training?

Some people really want to fly for a living and will be more than happy flying a battered old twin around, others just want to pose in a pilots uniform and nothing but a jet is good enough

Again, whilst maybe true in some cases, it's no more than nonsense for the majority.

It takes hard work, determination, good time/financial management skills and a very strong desire to fly to go the modular route

As it does for integrated training too. It's looking like you're "attacking" the integrated option for the sake of it now. Hard work? Is it not possible that an integrated school whose reputation with the airlines is constantly on the line, has higher standards than one of the schools teaching modular students? I know this is true of experience I've had at JAA schools in the US. Financial management skills? £60-70,000 will soon put your management skills tothe test. And a very strong desire? Well you wouldn't spend that amount of money for the sheer fun of it, would you?

Whilst I think it's a good thing to have the positives and negatives of each option displayed clearly, each options' positives and negatives should be balanced and not largely unsubstantiated and bordering envious blurb.

If you have a sustainable argument, go for it! But if the argument is just plain untrue in the majority of circumstances or is applicable to both options then it negates the need for writing it in the first place, don't you think?

Truth be told, you'll find advantages and disadvantages in both options. The choice is down to the individual and their individual circumstances as well as extraneous circumstances.

[Sweet Potatos]

Well said jolegg.

:D

[Prophead]

You are right in some of what you say and i am mainly just having a rant;)

I did say my comments wern't aimed at those people who have saved hard to go the integrated route.

There just seems to be more and more posts on here from people who think the world owes them a jet job because they have gone integrated, even though they have only just finished training.

As for envious blurb well it may be blurb as far as your concerned but it is certainly not envious. There is no way on earth I would go the integrated route unless i could afford to write off the whole cost of the course. I certainly wouldnt lumber my parents with it and as for borrowing it in the current financial climate.:uhoh:

I am not against integrated training at all, i just dont understand why some companies seem to prefer it.

[whiskey1]

It is all about risk to the Airline/ Employer.

The intensive nature of the Integrated course means that a successful graduate is very likely to have the knowledge, ability and skills to successfully undertake Type Rating Training and be quickly cleared to the line as a useful First Officer. If not the Integrated provider is very likely to have detected this and discontinued this students training (or at least directed them to their Modular course).

While a Modular Student may have a similar ability, the lower intensity of Modular training regime leave this as an unknown in the mind of the recruiting and training departments. This does not mean that Modular Training or Students are bad (I personally know some excellent Modular Students) just an unknown and therefore unacceptable risk to some larger flight departments.

[ford cortina]

You must understand that most airlines now have a Human Resources Department. The age of having a friendly chat with the Chief Pilot are almost gone.

The intergrated providers have very good marketing skills and one of the things they do is to train everyone to be the same.

HR people could not care less of commitment, indeed you could argue that a Modular student, who might not have, or be able to get £60K and scrimped and saved his/her way through is more committed, but that is not why I am here.

These people have to justify their salary's and as such they love to put you through hoops, psyc etc. The intergrated schools know this, they are sending a large quantity of pilots out there, so it is in their interests to make sure the CV is acceptable, the clothes you wear for interview etc are addressed.

The modular route cannot address this as people are free to do it anyway they like.

Getting a Job has got nothing to do with ability, a Type Rating on a Boeing 737-300/900 is no harder than a IR rating, in fact its easier and a lot more fun.
The main factor governing most jobs these days, and it's a big factor in our world, is will this person fit in with our way and can he/she sit next to a captain for 8 hours without the capt wanting to kill him.
You learn to fly once you get a job.

[99jolegg]

I am not against integrated training at all, i just dont understand why some companies seem to prefer it

Whiskey1 answers that for you. To me, a lot of the aviation industry is based on risk and reducing risk. Choosing an integrated cadet is one way in which you can reduce risk. Why? Because all of their training is accounted for, so the chance of them achieving well in the RHS is increased or at worst, standard. Doing different licenses and ratings at different schools around the world to cut costs increases the risk and there is no guarantee you weren't subject to sub-standard training. On top of that, integrated candidates have passed selection criterion to get on to the course in the first place. These selection criterion are fairly similar to an airline's selection criterion in most circumstances.

Having said that, airlines know that integrated isn't the be all and end all, and if a modular student passes the airline's recruitment tests then they are at no disadvantage to an integrated student who also passed the selection tests.

The whole thing is swings and roundabouts with a little luck thrown in.

[WISH2FLY]

No not the usual question.

Sounds very much like the usual question / debate / rant! :ugh:

This whole debate is surely down to personal preference in terms of how, when and where people want to train.

Each to their own i say!

[shaun ryder]

Listen. If you dont get that job straight away, immediately the day you walk out of 'Mirimar' or whatever you like to think of it. Then expect your intensive skills and core training to wither away as quickly as your finances did.

Unless you can keep current i.e ideally flying professionally in between or pay some shabby outfit to employ you, then a couple of months down the line you will be just the same as any other Tom Dick or Harry. Integrated or not. The problem lies with the fact that too many wannabees are not content unless they fly airline immediately, as if it were their birth right.

Integrated people, might I suggest that you try and think of a back up plan to keep current, hell you could even consider an instructor rating as many of your modular subjects do. Paying for the speculative type rating instead will most probably just land you in even more debt and with the glut of more experienced pilots out there, definately in the shadows.

[Prophead]

My initial rant was caused by a conversation i heard last night by a freshly qualified integrated graduate who's exact words were

'Even though im integrated all i have been offered is an ATR job, i think im going to pay for Type rating to get a real job'

It is an attitude ive seen before both on here and around the airfield.

Integrated training lets the airline know that you are able to pass the TR.

However it is still cheaper to go Modular and get a TR than it is to go integrated. I just dont know how or why people do it.

[CABUS]

Well said wish2fly!

Its a personal choice, I was a modular student with upmost respect for the integrated guys (not at the time I might add, the usual joke was do they wear epauelettes to bed). Were all going to be flying together at some point, no doubt on a shiney jet if thats what you want, and I can almost guarantee when it happens the last thing we will be talking is the training providers and the differences between integrated and modular. HOWEVER, if that subject does come up over a cold one down route at some point and there is no sign of the subject changing to something funny like the previous landing, I am sure the other person (s) will be retiring to their mini-bar.

Were all going to get there one day and I would like to think of this industry as supportive not bitter.

On the bright side it does supply some comedy reading at 1020 in the morning:ok: and its got me in the mood for the Daily Mail.

[CY333]

I dont know whats the deal in the UK but down here it reallt does not matter.
I know guys and girls that went both ways and got jobs.
At the end of the day the paper you get is of the same value.
Now, there use to be an attidute that for you to be a good pilot you had to take eveything at Oxford.
Especially with airlines like BA.
In my opinion it does not matter and I am sure many of you believe the same.
So why should it be different if you go modular?
We are all training under the same criteria so I trully believe one way or the other you will be fine.
As for the comment that someone wrote that spending 60-70 000 shows determination it does not.
It only shows you got more money than others.
Actually if you look at a guy that works and does the modular way then is clear who can stand the pressure,in my opinion.

[Alex Whittingham]

I think Whiskey1 has hit the nail on the head. It's all about risk to the employer. Integrated schools offer initial selection, training records and a relatively homogenous product. That doesn't mean that integrated students are better than modular students, though. Only that an average integrated student represents less risk than an average modular student in the first job.

There is a flip side to the coin, modular students are likely to be older, more mature, probably more motivated and are likely to stay with the employer for longer. All ex-military pilots and license conversions are modular.

Once you are established in employment (typically 500 hours of commercial time) no-one cares where you trained because you will have already proved the most important thing to the prospective employer, that you can pass a type rating and line training.

It is also a mistake to assume that all integrated schools produce the same quality output. The airlines are very aware of this. Supply and demand also features in the equation as do external commercial decisions and group alliances.

So, integrated or modular? Essentially it's a bet. If you decide to go integrated you are betting the extra cost of an integrated course, the inflexibility and the need to give up work against the speed of training and an increased chance of a first job.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

As I've said many times. The real advantage that Integrated over Modular gives you is that - in a boom time - airlines call Integrated schools and ask them to send a list of names to interview who are due to complete training anytime between week X and week Y.


If you happen to be in that window at that school and you have excellent grades and your instructor thinks you are good and writes that in your course notes THEN you get a shot at a big airline job straight out of training. Happens all the time when airlines are expanding and get their number wrong. Just reach for the email address at OATS/FTE/CABAR and you'll have your interview list done by lunchtime.


When times are good I think the price premium is worth paying.

When time are bad I think priority is in not bankrupting yourself with training debt and sabotaging your current career and families happiness.


As you may have noticed - I think times are bad and about get horrid.


WWW


ps The Integrated vs Modular debate has a <cough> couple of threads already on here so go do a Search for more views.

pps Read all that and still want more? Try searching CAP509 vs Self Improver!

[Nathan.Hunter]

I'm not the most geared up on training etc, i'm midway through a 5 year aerospace uni course and thinking about doing some pilot training when i finnish over a 6-7 year period then change careers.

Prophead as got a good point with the attitude of alot of people on intergrated! and this airlines prefere intergrated students nonsense is very 'private school' (sorry if you are from private school)

At the end of the day you all pass the same exams and so it's going to be you as a person that counts and showing that you've been successfull in your life, started from nothing and paid your way through has got to count for somthing?

Having said this you've got the luckier rich people with just the same drive and skill that can go through the intergrated!.

Although i think most of the fun is getting there, like with everything i'd much prefere instructing, flying bits of junk, props, and finnaly land a seat in a jet! than going straight into 1 for the remaining 40 years of employment!

[Rugbyears]

Does current age restriction exist for entry to an integrated programme, or is it merely a question of viability? I am what you younger chaps may consider a mature student, at the ripe old age of 31. I try to refrain from the debate associating both approaches, however, one must confess to finding it rather difficult to appreciate the whole carefully structured framework of the integrated approach. Time is rather limited and carefully allocated to predetermined activities. There are so many potential pitfalls which should be carefully considered prior to proceeding, for example, what is the procedure if you fall behind as a result of illness and so on. Nevertheless, is the grass greener on the other side, well quite possibly not, there are equally as many associated negative aspects associated with the modular approach. When all is said and done, one must assess ones own circumstances and make a careful and diligent decision as to which approach suites their individual requirements best.

My approach is to incorporate the ‘Structured Modular Approach’ offered by BGS. Why do I champion this route, well one appears to reduce risks associated with both of the afore mentioned approaches. For example, this approach provides a degree of consistency which appears desirable to airlines, despite this, one remains in control of the overall study – certainly financially viable. I am staged, how few posts refer to the structured modular approach as an option out right.

[MIKECR]

Rugbyears,

You mention the 'structured' modular route. It took me 7 years in total to go from ppl to frzen atpl down the modular route. I still put in my cv's and applications that i had completed a 'structured modular course of flying' even though it was all stops and starts(due finance) and trained at various different FTO's. It all depends on what you class as 'structured'. Hasnt done me any harm either - finished everything 12 months ago and now sitting in 2 hold pools for regional TP jobs and also had offer of 737 interview. And 'yes', im a low hours chap(less than 500) and also in my 30's. God i feel old now!!!

[Rugbyears]

Mikecr - You see, an excellent example how ones own situation predicts their method of chosen training - Well done!!!

[MIKECR]

Thanks. I'll reserve giving myself a pat on the back though until one of them actually gives me a start date!!:} My phone doesnt leave my side at the moment!

Its all horses for courses though. You have to make your own luck in the job hunt game. If you have the money(and lots of it) then the integrated route is probably the best way to go. You HAVE to do well though with your FTO to get the reccomendations to the airlines. If you dont, they'll wash their hands of you once your finished and you'll be left to your own devices to find a job. You'll join the bun fight along with everyone else.

Theres jobs out there though, but you have to be proactive.

[London legend]

Nathan Hunter -

this airlines prefere intergrated students nonsense is very 'private school' (sorry if you are from private school)

There have been many extremely clear and concise answers on here already dealing with this, i.e it's all about how well a particular school markets its product to the airlines - they perceive a lower risk if they take new integrated grads, and in many cases the colleges take a lot of the strain of the recruitment process from them, which I imagine saves them a great deal of money.

At the end of the day you all pass the same exams and so it's going to be you as a person that counts and showing that you've been successfull in your life, started from nothing and paid your way through has got to count for somthing? Having said this you've got the luckier rich people with just the same drive and skill that can go through the intergrated!.

What you're infering here (and also seem to be saying when you refer to the "private school" attitude) is that only rich people can afford an integrated course; that it's elitist. This is not my experience at all. Many of the integrated students I know have taken out heavy loans and are still paying them off years on. They simply believed that doing an integrated course gave them their best chance of a job immediately after they'd qualified (which has indeed proved to be case!)

[Prophead]

'They simply believed that doing an integrated course gave them their best chance of a job immediately after they'd qualified (which has indeed proved to be case!)'

Surely thats a bit of a sweeping statement.

For all the extra cost involved it had better give them something.

I would suggest the only fair comparison is between two routes that have cost somewhere near the same amount of money. I'd be seriously interested to know what makes you more employable between Integrated and modular with SSTR.

(This then takes us to another well argued subject:ok:)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

But when there is a job famine the Modular guy and the Integrated guy are in the same boat but one of them owe's £40k to the bank and the other one £70k. They're both flippin burgers.

My advice would be to train cheaply then pay for a SSTR. It seems to have been the most dead cert way of getting quickly into the airlines. Sad but true.

A Modular course followed by a £20k SSTR has worked in 9 out of 10 cases in my exerience of the last couple of years.

WWW

[London legend]

'They simply believed that doing an integrated course gave them their best chance of a job immediately after they'd qualified (which has indeed proved to be case!)'

Surely thats a bit of a sweeping statement.

No - I wasn't suggesting that it was a rule that applied everywhere - I was just stating a fact that, in their case, it has proved to be the case - all of them are now working for airlines.

[Prophead]

I would even say you could get 500h on type as well for the cost of integrated:suspect:

[clanger32]

I don't really want to comment on the actual integrated Vs Mod discussion, it's too deeply polarised. The only thing I would say on this (actually by way of example of the polarisation than anything else) is that Ryanair, long the bastion of the Modular route declared recently that Oxford grads were "training at the best school in the world". Assuming the recruitment gentlemen who said this wasn't just playing some spin - which we have no reason to believe - then who will they go for in a dry climate? The surfeit of Oxford students who can't get jobs elsewhere, or continue hiring modular? I have plenty of experience recruiting people (tho' not in aviation) and the truth is you alwayshire the person you believe will be best for the job, whether they are or not.

I would look at this and say that in a bad climate, integrated offers you some slight advantage for the few jobs that are on offer, WWW [who, btw I would suggest people listen to more than me - he's doing the job I'm training for...] would say train more cheaply, your chances are even....and therein lies the polarisation...no-one who believes one route will ever change their perception of the other route.

Anyway, I digress, what I really wanted to bring up is the subject of finances. I fail to understand why people are so incapable of saving for their training. A couple of people on this thread have implied or directly stated that integrated students are from Rich backgrounds, or mummy and daddy have paid. This is pure ignorance of the truth...many are from very poor backgrounds and this is WHY they've taken such huge risks. To say "I'm happy just flying a putt putt aeroplane around" is [generally] naievity (how the hell do you spell that!) personified. It's great on a "perfect world" level, but it isn't a perfect world and money is a big factor. THAT is why a LOT of people want to go straight to the jets, because that's where the big pay is. It may not be the "pure" route, but it is, unfortunately necessary as people need to live and most don't want to live in a shoebox whilst they're getting their hours of FI work in.

[Rugbyears]

WWW - Fully concur, I have regurgitated the same rhetoric over the last month or so, on most occasions I have quickly been criticised and categorised as the reason why airlines put undue expectations on individual to pay for their own TR, ‘People like me, create problems for newbie’s’ – Unfortunately, that’s life, and life is not always fair. One does as one sees fit in order to attain their final objective, and if that requires fulfilling the criteria of self financing the SSTR, then surely that’s what one must do.

[Philpaz]

then who will they go for in a dry climate? The surfeit of Oxford students who can't get jobs elsewhere, or continue hiring modular?


Purely using what i have read on Pprune as a reference. I would say Ryanair will go for the pilots that still have the funds left to pay for the TR. I think with the economic climate the way it is at the moment, people that financed their training with loans will be ruled out of the SSTR route as they will find it difficult to extend their debt. Which in turn leaves only the "hard working" element (as they were referred to earlier) that saved for training and have no debt, left in the running.

I'd rather not pay for a TR (but then who would??) but the sad reality is that if i felt it was the only way in then i'd do it, as i'm sure would many others given the means.

[MIKECR]

The following - http://www.oxfordaviation.net/employment_stats.htm would suggest that the vast majority of integrated peope this year are off to Ryanair. Thats 70 - 80k for fatpl and 25k for sstr, followed by nil pay for 3 months, half pay for 6 months and finally full pay for FO after 9 months. It would be interesting to know how many modular guys as opposed to integrated Ryanair have taken this year. You might find that the majority are modular, at a third of the price of their integrated colleague.

[Adios]

MIKECR,

Apparently it's not as Ryanair heavy as that due to a change in accounting [sic] procedures: http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewtopic.php?t=4353

[clanger32]

Sorry, early mornings don't agree...my previous post on re-reading not making for the clearest reading of anything I've ever written.

It is definitely fair to say that if Ryanair continue to recruit as many mod students as they ever did but add some int students, then those who have completed the int route will likely have paid more for the same job.

However, if there are fewer jobs around, it becomes an employers market. If the employer perceives that an int grad offers a lower risk and "better [more structured] product, (I believe the Ryanair chaps said that the average OAA grad completes line training something like 7 sectors sooner than mod) then the jobs they do have will go where they perceive the lower risk to be.

What I am therefore saying is that the logic only holds true that mod students are better off when the playing field remains level. If that playing field becomes massively in favour of the recruiters, as it will in a down turn, then the advantage is swiftly eroded if - IF - those recruiting perceive that the integrated grads offer a better solution.

It's a tough call when it's a tough market....less debt vs slightly better odds....

For what it's worth tho, I'd appreciate it if we can stop calling the OAA/FTE/Cabair integrated course fees £70-£80k....they're not. It's only that much if you include living costs....so unless you're planning on being dead for the duration of your mod course, those additional costs equally well apply there also...it's too often used as a lever that isn't applicable in actuality.

[MIKECR]

The current OAT basic integrated cost is 63k. The additional test/licence fee's are 4.5k. Thats pushing the best part of 70k, and thats assuming minimum hours and first time passes. The average student will require more than that, certainly pushing over 70k. Then the Ryanair sstr at 25k pushes you to nearly 100k!

I did the whole lot modular for lass than 30k. I was still offered the same interview with ryanair as the integrated boys and girls. You do the maths!

And most modular people are holding down full time jobs at the same time so the 'living costs' dont really count.

[Prophead]

So people are paying £100,000 ($197,961 US) of their own money to work for Ryanair!

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

MIKECR

How does it feel to know people have paid £70k more than you for the same licence and still regard themselves as 'The better solution' :ok:

'I believe the Ryanair chaps said that the average OAA grad completes line training something like 7 sectors sooner than mod'

How many hours + TR could £70k buy? (Thats $138,573 for any Americans who think they are hallucinating)

[clanger32]

Gah. Well, I have to congratulate you for managing to complete the whole lot in under £30k, that's genuinely commendable. However, if you or anyone else can be bothered to trawl through the previous 90340987409809809834 pages of Int Vs Mod then it would seem that a more realistic cost for mod is in excess of £40k. Indeed I found several posts the other day from WWW [here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-7271.html] stating that back in 2002 he figured it would cost at least £37000. Further, if you believe the figures included in that post, we can see that Cabairs integrated offering has gone up by 27% - if we assume the same factor rise in cost of modular, then it's likely to cost (based on WWW figures) more like £47k these days.

If we stop the obsession with comparing the most expensive (or one of - depending on how the exchange rate makes FTEs offering look) integrated with the cheapest mod, then you can do integrated at Cabair for a touch under £60k. So, comparing that with the seemingly more normal £40-£45k mod costs, £15k or more saving is definitely not to be sniffed at, but it is a different picture than the commonly posted view that it's hugely (C.£40k) cheaper.

Indeed, when you say (and not trying to start an argument) that you completed the mod route for >£30k...almost everyone I've ever seen that claims this conveniently forgets to include the cost of their PPL or hour building in that. So one does have to ask, does that actually include the full cost of 0-fATPL?

Propheads comments about having paid more than £70k more for the privilege of working for Ryanair, again shows why this is so polarised....the answer is that the int chap or chapess HASN'T paid £70k more....again the fact that the mod guy has to pay the SSTR also has been missed off. Add that to the nominal but likely £47k and suddenly you've got our Cabair integrated guy who's paid £85k to work there, versus your mod student who's paid £72k to work there....suddenly it's not so very different...

One final thing to add into the mix....MikeCRs post indicates that he is qualified and working....which in turn implies that he DIDN'T try and get a job in the employers market to which my earlier post relates.

Overall, I'm not trying to defend integrated, or slate modular. It's just the whole thing is SO deeply polarised that it's impossible to get unbiased views. Modular is a great route that offers many benefits, but then...so is integrated.

[shaun ryder]

Phew...! Im glad that's over with. Whatever it was you are saying clanger. Reality now, you will never be able to change the fact, that no matter how much you try and explain. The Ryans wont give a toss whether you have integrated or modular written all over you. I seem to remember stating this to you a few months back. Plenty a good pilot ended up there and they did not need the help nor the extra sectors (bollox in my opinion) that you may need by going integrated.

Save your cash, go on holiday, buy a new car. :)

[Colomiers]

As usual the same old arguments come up time and time again anytime anyone mentions 'integrated' and modular' in the same sentence.

And why not? it's just about the biggest decision to be made by anyone considering taking the plunge into the murky world of flight training. I think it's good to have a fresh discussion about the relative merits of each in the current climate instead of sending newbies to the 'search' function to look at threads from years ago.

However, one thing really does pi$$ me off.
Where do people get off thinking the can make comments like 'mommy and daddy paid for their integrated training so they're not really dedicated and only want to fly big shiney jets'.
The arrogance it must take to come out witha statement like that is bloody astounding!! Who the hell do these people think they are.
The most hard working, dedicated person, who has dreamed of flying all their lives may well have millionaire parents. Are they somehow less dedicated, less mature, less willing to fly a light twin to keep their hand in if recruitment drys up??
I went integrated - paid for with a loan in my name but secured by my parents. I spent about three years looking at the merits of both integrated and modular, trawling through this forum and other sources of information. I didn't sleep a wink the night before loading up the car and heading off to oxford to hand them £60k. When i got there i worked my balls off for 15 months. And in the end through hard work, stress like i've never known, dedication and a sh1t load of luck - i got a job flying a not so shiney jet.
Had I not had parents wealthy enough/willing to secure my loan would I have gone integrated? I'm not sure. Perhaps I would have worked for longer to build my savings or maybe i would have gone modular and worked during my training. I was in the privledged position that they were options I didn't have to take. Either way, I'm not going to have some arrogant ittle pi$$ ant tell me I (or any of my many friends from oxford) aren't as dedicated or hardworking as modular students.
For 99% of the punters in oxford flight training is a MAJOR risk. no one takes it lightly. we were all willing to flight instruct in Timbuktu if that's what it took to stay current.

Quote Prophead:
'If i am ever involved in pilot recruitment ill be looking for the modular student who has worked his a*@e off in some other job to pay his way through training.

Some people really want to fly for a living and will be more than happy flying a battered old twin around, others just want to pose in a pilots uniform and nothing but a jet is good enough.

It takes hard work, determination, good time/financial management skills and a very strong desire to fly to go the modular route.

The integrated route takes rich/mortgaged up parents or a an individual gullable enough to massively over pay for their training and borrow huge amounts of money to do it, thus paying a load of interest as well.'

This is exactly the kind of crap i'm talking about. What is your issue Prophead? where does your incessant need to insult 'gullable' integrated students come from??
I was about to type out a list of arguments pro-integrated - but that's really not rellevant. the point is don't make stupid inslulting comments about integrated students just because one way or another they can raise the funds to take that route. You don't have a clue how much risk/dedication is involved for any given individual.


Quote Alex Whittingham:
'There is a flip side to the coin, modular students are likely to be older, more mature, probably more motivated and are likely to stay with the employer for longer.'

Alex, by and large i respect your reasoned arguments but this is complete crap. It's possible (maybe probable) that statistics would prove that the average mod student is older (i don't know). As for maturity and motivation - what evidence do you have that modular students are more motivated than integrated? People talk about how they 'held down 2 jobs and supported a family' while doing their modular training. All credit to these people - a bloody hard slog i'm sure - but don't dare assume that 'joe integrated student' wouldn't have done the same if different circumstances had forced them to take that route.
In terms of maturity, there were a bunch of 18 year olds on my course. Having gone through uni the stark difference between these guys and your average uni student is unbeleivable. They took there enormous debt very seriously worked just as hard as the thirty-somethings on the course.

Regarding staying with your employer for longer - you really would have to be quite old starting your first flying job to not consider leaving for ba/virgin/easy at the first available opportunity (presuming that is what you wanted).

In summary, debate about integrated v modular is important and should be encouraged, but all to often that debate descends into a people slating integrated students as a bunch of spoilt little brats. Trust me, nothing could be further from the truth.

Some people consider training and decide on integrated. they believe that although more expensive, the opportunities are likely to be better at the end and time to the rhs of a jet (what many people are looking for) will be less.
Some airlines -e.g. BA, only take integrates low hour pilots, FACT. If you think thats unfair and that many modular students are more than capable of passing a BA selection and fulfilling that role thats fair enough. I'd probably agree with you. However, there's nothin you or i can do about it. The FACT remains that if you want a shot a BA mainline straight out of flight school you have to do integrated. If, for what ever reason, integrated isn't an option for you and this type of thinking from airlines pisses you off, again fair enough.
But don't come on to pprune and bitch about integrated students who may be trying to take advantage of the situation laid out in fron of them.

To quote Will Smith; 'Don't hate the player, hate the game'

[Colomiers]

It really didn't seem that long when i was typing it. ah well, nothing better to do on a dull thursday morning :)

[MIKECR]

clanger,

to answer your question, 'yes', under 30k all in, including ppl and hour building. Did my ppl in the states for less than 3k, then towed gliders for over 150 hours(all free flying). Joined a local cessna syndicate as well, and flew for just over 50 quid an hour. The whole lot, including test/licence fee's, atpl exam fee's...etc etc came to 28k, give or take a pound. If id trained for the cpl/ir/mcc abroad I could have probably saved more. I opted for UK training however. The 2 jobs I am sitting in hold pool's for will be bonded TR's as well. No self funding.

If id had the money, i would have probably taken the integrated route. but ONLY if i'd had the money. I certainly wasnt going to borrow 70 odd grand. The modular route has worked fine for me though, got the ticks in the boxes, first time passes in cpl and ir and all my groundschool, all in min time. I even averaged 94% with my exams. I dont really care if Ryanair see me as a training risk(the extra sectors you refer to)as i wouldnt contemplate working for that shower of s**t.

Im not poo pooing any route that people go down. As i said earlier, its all horses for courses. People should do whats best for THEM, and do what they can afford. The integrated route at this moment in time looks dodgy to me though, with the recession upon us and jobs drying up. Given the employment stats for OAT this year, its obvious that the likely result of your cash will end you up at Ryanair. Thats a serious amount of cash that people could save and go modular. They'll get the same interview at the end.

[Prophead]

Clanger32

You are not taking into account the fact that whilst doing integrated you also need money to live on as well as the extra you will pay in interest on the loan.

Modular when done alongside a job and paid for as you go will not bring these extra costs.

I added the TR+Hours to the modular to show what you could get for the same/less money

Colomiers

I am not trying to take away anything from the integrated guys, any CPL/IR takes hard work and motivation. I do however believe that IN GENERAL people who do it whilst working full time to pay for it all, will in alot of cases had to work harder out of necessity and as has been said before tend to be more mature. If you dont believe me on the last point then read the posts on the 'Question Re: CTC' thread. This is my opinion based on the integrated guys ive met so far and you are entitled to yours.

I was saying the qualities i would be looking for were i involved in recruitment for and airline, but im not. I DO NOT think integrated pilots are inferior at all but i also do not think it creates a superior pilot as the schools would have you believe. Certainly not enough to justify the differnece in cost. As for the schools statements that it proves you will be able to pass the line training and be more employable, would not your existing employment history tell them more?

I agree that the majority of integrated graduates are no different to the modular guys, however if you have never come across the kind of people i was referring to then you have been lucky.

Im sure integrated made sense a few years ago but in the current financial climate borrowing £70-100k for a CPL/IR just doesn't make sense to me. And if people are attending shows put on by the training providers and being told by Ryaniar that they should spend £100,000 of their own money for the privelidge of working for them then yes i do believe they are being gullable. This doesn't apply to all integrated students though and i know that.

Your comment:
Some people consider training and decide on integrated. they believe that although more expensive, the opportunities are likely to be better at the end and time to the rhs of a jet (what many people are looking for) will be less.
Some airlines -e.g. BA, only take integrates low hour pilots, FACT. If you think thats unfair and that many modular students are more than capable of passing a BA selection and fulfilling that role thats fair enough. I'd probably agree with you. However, there's nothin you or i can do about it. The FACT remains that if you want a shot a BA mainline straight out of flight school you have to do integrated. If, for what ever reason, integrated isn't an option for you and this type of thinking from airlines pisses you off, again fair enough.
But don't come on to pprune and bitch about integrated students who may be trying to take advantage of the situation laid out in fron of them.

shows kind of what i was getting at. :rolleyes:

This is a way of thinking that is being exploited by the airlines and training providers to take more of their cash from them. A situation will may get worse. IMO

[Colomiers]

Prophead,
as i see it there are three separate issues;

1. - Is it fair/reasonable that some airlines prefer integrated students to modular students?
No it's not fair. There are bound to be many many mod students who are just as capable as any integrated students these airlines take. However due to circumstances they cannot train integrated and miss out on some opportunities. I think we agree on this.
I can see where airlines are coming from though - you have an under resourced recruitment department that find an overnight need for pilots. In an ideal world they would interview every potential applicant, choosing the best. However, as has been mentioned before, one quick call to oxford/jerez and you have a number applicants with a proven training record at your door in as little as a couple of hours if necessary.
This is not fair but it's life so there's not point whinging about it.

2. - Are integrated students any less dedicated, more spoilt or generally more 'a$$hole like'?
Absolutely not!! I don't know what dealings with integrated students you have had but i couldn't disagree more with this. I know plenty of integrated students from both oxford and jerez and quite a few modular students as well. Each group has its fair share of twats. The only real discernable difference between mod and int students is their background before training.

3. - Should I do modular or integrated?
There is no right answer to this - it comes down to personal circumstances. People seem to debate whether int students are 'superior pilots' - this is pointless as it doesn't matter one iota. Once you've passed the exams all that matters is how easy you can get a job. Unless you get accurate statistics on this (which you won't) it's impossible to come to any real conclusion. The one thing that I would say when comparing costs it's important to consider the length of time in training and the potential job at the end. If you spend 5 years doing mod v 1.5 years doing int then the mod guy is loosing 3.5 years of seniority and salary inrcrements. when comparing £30k for mod and £70k for int this aspect is frequently left out.

p.s. - i know you can do mod as quick as integrated but generally the cost then increases coniderably.

[Prophead]

1. I agree with what you say, however i also think this point is used too much by the integrated schools in order to justify the increased price of the integrated course and attract students. Some are lucky enough to have access to the funds and good luck to them, but many are getting in massive debt because they believe integrated will get them something that modular will not. They may then find out they need to pay for a type rating as well just to be on an even keel with those same modular guys.

When these airlines call the integrated schools the reason they want people with a proven training record is because they are going to put them through the TR. How many airlines when requiring crews would pick up the phone and just call the TRTO's for their latest graduates, would they then care if they were integrated or modular if they had done well on their TR course? I suspect not.

2. I conceed here:ouch: I had been wound up by a certain individual and was having a rant. I certainly didnt mean to say Integrated students were any different to modular. I was struggling to understand why the schools could say integrated were better.

3. I would say, if the job market is good and the airlines (If thats what you want) are recruiting without a TR and you have the cash then it may be a good idea to go integrated so you dont miss the boat. This doesn't seem to be the case at the moment though and whilst i have nothing against that route, i wouldnt advise anyone to get a £70-100k loan to do it at this time. That kind of cash would be much better spent on modular training with a TR in my opinion.

As to the salary/seniority wasted whilst modular, it depends what type of flying you wish to do. I and many other modular students i know will probably take a substantial salary decrease when we get that first job and are already on the property ladder etc so that can work both ways.

Either way, its crazy were all going through this for the privelidge of getting a job, if were not all careful it will get alot worse.



Imagine PPrune in 2015

Is it better to pay for CPL/IR + 747 TR =10,000 hours or just set up my own airline? :ok:

[clanger32]

MikeCR, I think I remember talking to you and being impressed before...once more....congrats, that's an awesome feat. For what it's worth, I went integrated for the simple reason I could afford to without taking the debt and I figured being a bit older at the start, finishing as quickly as possible was the best thing for me.

Colomiers has posted pretty much exactly what I wanted to say, very succinctly. In any walk of life, in any job, you will find your fair share of monkeys....but you'll also find some great mates for life if you look for them.

Prophead...the problem being, whilst your point about int students needing to live whilst on course is valid to some degree, even if you are still working, those living costs don't go away. The quid pro quo of offsetting your living costs (by working whilst training), is that you can't dedicate all of your money or time to flight training, so it normally takes longer, unless you go full time mod...in which case it's equally valid to apply these costs to both routes. Finally, whilst you save initially, for the sake of validity you should also consider the final amount you LOSE by taking longer to get "the same licence", in terms of overall career earnings and seniority - the point colomier latterly raised. It really is horses for courses...unfortunately some can't even see there IS a second side to the argument, let alone comprehend it and then make an informed choice....which leads me to ....

Shaun. Ahhh, Shaun. You place me in a dilemma. I really can't be arsed to respond to someone who frankly clearly can't see that there is any other possiblility than the choice they personally made. I'll just wish you well and hope that at some point in the future you begin to understand that if the airlines that typically take the int guys stop hiring, then the fact those int guys AREN'T being picked up by the traditional airlines, means there's more competition for every other job....and that's definitely not good for anyone.

[Alex Whittingham]

Hello Colomiers,

You may be taking this too personally, I'm not talking about you or denigrating your motivation. We train both modular and integrated students so I think I can comment on the generalities. There are very gifted students taking both routes and also some less so. Some of the younger integrated students we have had through have not been particularly easy. I have even had instructors, on occasions, complain they are talking amongst themselves at the back of the class, which to me is an indication of both immaturity and overconfidence, this would be unheard of with modular students, it has only ever occured when training integrated cadets.

Most of our modular students are in the 25 to 40 age range, changing careers, most of the integrated students are 20 to 25-ish. In general it is the single pilots that jump ship early on in their employment, the married ones, usually older, go more for stability and a quiet life and tend to be more satisfied with turboprop/regional jobs. Anyone can go to BA, if they want, you only need 500 hours+ of commercial experience and they'll consider you as a DEP. Not everyone wants to, BA ain't what it used to be. A case in point, BA poached some ex CTC cadets from Easyjet last year, modular trained. None of the 'we only take integrated' rubbish, well, not if they are line trained and we are short staffed. Another case in point, a friend of mine, single, modular trained, started with BAC Express flying sheds, then joined CityFlyer, and after BA took them over he now flies the 777. No-one said 'excuse me, did you go to an integrated school?'

[Prophead]

So i wasnt imagining it then.;)

Clanger32

Im not sure i understand what your getting at.

Yes modular takes longer but you are earning as well in that time and not borrowing/paying back with interest money for rent/food etc. Your argument about the potential salary lost is not really a valid one IMO because you are not paying back a huge loan for years. You may also get a type rating for the extra cost of integrated and therefore not be paying that back from your salary.

These kind of points though really do vary from person to person and we are getting a bit to in depth.

The bottom line is for the price of an integrated course you could get the same licence + TR and maybe even some hours on type. It is possible to get all this whilst working a full time job and many people do. If you have the money there is nothing wrong at all with integrated but dont think you are any better than anyone else no matter what the schools tell you. And think very carefully about borrowing a huge amount of money or taking your parents equity based on the schools marketing blurb.

[WISH2FLY]

Colomiers quote:

Where do people get off thinking the can make comments like 'mommy and daddy' paid for their integrated training so they're not really dedicated and only want to fly big shiney jets'.
The arrogance it must take to come out witha statement like that is bloody astounding!! Who the hell do these people think they are.

Well said! :D This is a common opinion shared by many on PPRuNe!

Surely its not where you have come from...its where you are heading!!! :ok:

[MasterD]

Colomiers quote:

Where do people get off thinking the can make comments like 'mommy and daddy' paid for their integrated training so they're not really dedicated and only want to fly big shiney jets'.
The arrogance it must take to come out witha statement like that is bloody astounding!! Who the hell do these people think they are.

I second that well said:D:D
I have worked for 8 years in a crappy supermarket so save the money to fly and i finally got it and start Cabair integrated in May

[Prophead]

MasterD

Working a crappy job and saving up that kind of cash is a hell of an achievement and shows a huge amount of determination. Well done, i hope you enjoy Cabair and im sure it will work out for you.

Out of interest though what was it that made you decide to save the full amount for 8 years instead of doing it modular as you were working? Im not trying to hint at anything and tell me to mind my own business if you like, but im geuinely interested to know.

[clanger32]

Prophead, I think we're actually on more or less the same page. I am integrated, but certainly don't think I'm any better (or worse) than anyone else just because of that fact.... FWIW, I also worked bloody hard for ten years to build up a successful enough career that I could afford to go int without taking debt, which is why it pinches when some clown comes on and claims that it's just mummy and daddy all the time for all integrated...

In terms of what I was trying to say previously....it's just that living cost is a constant...it is there whether you are full time integrated, full time modular or just full time working. The argument often used that it should be included in the overall cost of integrated is that you have to find that money whilst having no income. All I'm saying is that yes, if you're working you don't have to find that additional income, but it instead eats at your disposable income, which slows down the pace at which you can get qualified. As the aviation industry is tail weighted, salary wise, then qualifying earlier means that you hit bigger bucks sooner....and that is the trade off.

FWIW, if I didn't have the cash in the bank to do int, would I have taken the loan? I don't know. There are so many factors to consider. For example, I very much doubt anyone could LEARN the theory syllabus in anything less than the 6 months the int schools teach it in, so you either take year(s?) passing the theory, or learn the answers....neither of which was attractive to me. As you say though...the balancing act between these points varies from person to person...I just wish more people would understand that....

[SinBin]

This always makes me laugh. This overpriced method of training that some schools sex up is genius. It must be one of the cleverest marketing scams in history, it's brilliant. Less hours than modular, mostly in the US and double the price. Oh but they MAY get you an interview!!

Come on guys don't get sucked in, especially with the credit crunch, no career is worth that. I work with guys who went integrated and have £100k+ worth of debt around their necks like everlasting millstones and for what, a job? Me I have none; modular evenings and weekends, whilst working a desk all the way, paid as I went took less than 2 years start to finish. Got A320 job with big LHR airline with less than 300 hours TT, and I didn't pay for a rating. Don't get conned!!

And BTW I think all flight training is overpriced, before the bastions of integrated come defending their perches!!

[Rugbyears]

No, I’m afraid that is not the case, somewhat possible generalisation I’m afraid. Integrated Students may on average complete their programme in a relative shorter period of time, then those who choose a modular approach, nevertheless, it is possible to complete the modular direction in a much shorter timeframe if personal circumstances permit one to. In fact, I believe there are less restriction, one can progress at their desired pace through the duration of training. Indeed, a very close friend of mine successfully accomplished their full training within 14months, [Hour Building, CPL and IR]. This also included initial PPL training, albeit, the PPL activity was undertaken in the states. Family commitments encouraged his decision in choosing the modular approach.

However….

We really must move away the argument which is better; rather, one should identify what best suits their personal needs.

[clanger32]

"We really must move away the argument which is better; rather, one should identify what best suits their personal needs."

Amen to that.

And yes, it is a generalisation, in that I do believe you could do modular in a shorter time frame, indeed I know one guy who is just about done having spent about a year total on it. But the point is, that's full time, which kinda negates some of the benefits of doing mod. Anyway, where you can really make up time with mod is the flying, which can be slow paced at times integrated....I specifically mentioned ground school tho...and I stand by the comment I don't think you could learn the syllabus in less than six months..

[Rugbyears]

Clanger32 – As has been noted on several posts, the argument “what is best”, effectively comes down to personal circumstances. Regardless of which side of the fence one resides, there will always be another throwing stones from the opposite side…..

What would you choose…?

If one is hungry with a limited budget of 65p and only has two options – [a] Purchase a well known brand of baked beans priced @ 65p. Alternatively, [b] purchase a no-frills self-branded tin of baked beans priced at @ 35p, with the remaining change of 30p, purchase a loaf of bread to accompany the meal – Both will satisfy the hunger..! :confused::ugh:

[bajadj]

Charlie?? what have you been smoking?? heinz beans??? If you're really on a budget, you could save the end of product of said beans and sell it as biofuel!!

for what it's worth, I'm at the "heinz" of FTO's for groundschool and there's no way on gods earth that i'll be doing my flight training with them. I'll be doing my training for half the price in one of those "glass tins"!!

[MasterD]

Prophead
I did my degree and went traveling for 6 months wanted to have fun and enjoy myself before i started flying

[Rugbyears]

@bajadj - The 35p tin would be a luxury to me mate – bread and water for the next 12 months I would think…

How’s Modular 2 going..?

[Colomiers]

Alex,
i'm not going to argue with you regarding students at bristol, a school i know little about. what i can comment on are the integrated students at oxford, and to a lesser extent, jerez. less than 1% of the people i met were there because they kind of thought flying might be a bit of a laugh. the other 99%+ were by far the most dedicated, hardworking bunch of people i've ever known. without exception. my point - in my experience integrated/modular has no bearing on determination.

MasterD,
well done! busting your ass for 8 years has PROVEN without any doubt that you are as dedicated as they come. You've saved up and made the decision to go integrated - best of luck with that! Incedently, had you been born to oil baron parents and had everything handed to you on a silver platter your entire life would you be any less dedicated. i'm sure not. the fact that you haven't had to save hard for training doesn't mean your not as dedicated as the next guy. This is the crux of point.

Getting back to the debate, i went integrated and it worked out for me. why? primarily luck. I got straight into the airline i wanted to spend my career in and didn't have to pay for a typerating. i knew starting out that the chances of this were small but luckily it worked out. i could not have done this had i gone modular.
However, the majority of oxford grads did have to pay for typeratings - £20k ontop of an already serious debt.

Some points to consider though -

Although in debt to the tune of £60k, most people had little trouble extending their loan to fund a typerating, as long as they have a letter of intent from an employer.

With modular you could potentially save the cost of a typerating.
This is absolutley true. However, that type rating MUST be conducted with an airline and after selection with that airline. NEVER pay for a 'white-tail' typerating. This is worse than useless. I've heard it straight from the mouths of a number of recruitment managers that under no circumstances will they take someone who comes to them with a typerating they've done off their own bat. paying for hours on type is worse again.

So basically you could have an int guy and a mod guy sitting beside each other in ryanair type rating course. the mod guy could have potentially saved £30k (?). in this case obviously things have worked out for the mod guy.
What it comes down to is whether int training is more likely to get you onto that type course and if so is it worth the extra cash?. I don't know the answer to that and i'm pretty certain NO ONE does. all u can do is make an educated guess and hope for the best.

[ford cortina]

Colomiers, you seem to contradic yourself there. On the one hand if you are already £60,000plus in debt its quite easy to get anither £20K or so? Well if you go to Ryanair, they might give you a letter. However, you might drop out of their course, line training and if you do get dropped you lose all your money. SO maybe the bank might be a touch cautious.
If your Modular and you have spent, saym £40,000 you too might be able to get a loan for £20k for said type rating and if needs be pay £10k for the dreaded 500 hours.

Incidentally, I have also heard from the mouths of Chief Pilots and Recuitment Managers that by Self funding type ratings is one hell of a way to show commitment and they would and do employ people going down this route. And you know what, if you go to a american company and get sone hours with them then you are even more likley to get a job, the facts speak for themselves.

[Colomiers]

Hello ford

Quote ford cortina:
"Colomiers, you seem to contradic yourself there. On the one hand if you are already £60,000plus in debt its quite easy to get anither £20K or so? "

Of the people i trained with, many had a £60k loan from hsbc. upon finishing their course they then did sim checks and interviews with an airline/training provired. They were offered a place on a type rating (which they have to pay for) and given a letter which basically says "if you pass this typerating to our standards and we still needs pilots in 3 months we'll give you a job".
This letter is taken to the bank manager and the student tells them how they've already succeeded at oxford and they now have an airline interested in them. with £20k they can get on this course and barring some pretty bad luck, get a job at the end of it.
lets call this scenario case A.

now look at case B. you come out of oxford and can't get an interview. you go to the bank manager and say "i've suceeded at oxford but can't get a job. i want to borrow another £20k to pay for a typerating which will hopefully increase my chances of getting a job"

for a bank manager Case A is far, far less risky than case B. Even if case B was modular and had less debt to begin with they are a much higher risk. what the bank manager is interested in is your ability to pay back your borrowings. the amount of borrowings is less important.
I know quite a few 'Case As'. they all managed to secure the extra funding without too much bother.

Quote ford cortina:
"I have also heard from the mouths of Chief Pilots and Recuitment Managers that by Self funding type ratings is one hell of a way to show commitment and they would and do employ people going down this route."

I don't know if we're talking about the same thing here. you can 'self fund' a typerating after interviewing with an airline, upon completion of which they will (almost certainly) give you a job.
You can also pick a type yourself (e.g. a320) and go and do a typerating on it, after which you start looking for a320 jobs.

If chef pilots are advocating the latter then i would do everything in my power to avoid them like the plague. An fATPL is highly transportable. An a320 type rating with generic SOPs is useless to any airline as it stands. they have to undertake serious retraining to convert you to their SOPs.

regarding going to an American company an getting some hours, i don't know what you're talking about. i would be interested to know if you'd care to expand.

I stand by my original advice though, DO NOT PAY FOR A TYPE RATING UNLESS THERE IS A JOB AT THE END OF IT. paying for hours is equally out of the question.
People say Ryanair is a sh1tty outfit - and they are!! They certainly wouldn't be anyones first choice BUT, they do offer a good stepping stone if other more desirable options are not available. you pay (less than many other airlines) for your typerating and that is it. granted the pay is crap for the first 6 months but at least you're getting paid as opposed to paying for the privilege of flying passengers around. and after six months they pay is actually GOOD. get 1500hrs and get out!
Compare this to the likes of Astraeus (pure evil in my eyes). pay for a type rating and then pay more to fly our paying passengers around for 40 hrs. where do you go from there. i'm pretty sure any of the uk 75/73 operators won't be too interested in you with 4o hrs on type.

I can't imagine how sh1tty it must be to be sitting around qualified for a year and no sign of a job. but surely the likes of astraeus must be the very last resort. with china and india expanding like they are are there any opportunities down there? spend a year and a half, get 1500hrs and move back to europe. i have no idea how viable this option is but it's something i'd look long and hard at before paying to fly passenger jets.

[ford cortina]

Okay some common sense here then, Astraeus, no longer offer an hour buliding program.

Eagle Jet do offer line training programs, funny that, as the 737 course has a 100% job sucess rate, ask the pilots themselves. They are said American Company. Right or wrong does not come in to it, people will do what is right for them.

By doing a Type Rating, you are learning how to fly a jet, thats all, there is nothing else.

Generic, ie Boeing, SOP's are not that much different than any other airline SOP's. Also how hard is it to learn new SOP's, I mean on Engine Fire, Severe damage and seperation, the Boeing and Airline SOP's are going to be very similar, if not the same. I have converted my SOP's (B737) more than three times now for different companies, god that was not too hard, in the space of a few years. So that argument does not stand up, period.

The Ryanair offer is, on paper at least, very good. However assuming you pass the interview etc, if you fail anything on the type rating, they can ask and do, i know somone who just got binned very recently, to leave. They keep all your money, so bye bye. He is now £20K worse off, no type rating and no job.
Wow thats a great idea, if he had paid for his own type rating, he would at least have it, which has to be better than being £20K out of pocket with nothing to show for it.

[Colomiers]

ford,
i'm obviously out of date with my astraeus info - that was the case when i graduated, which wasn't a million years ago.

regarding ryanair, i know a couple of guys who struggled through their rating - extra circuits at base among other things. ryanair didn't make ay extra charge for this. things may have changed since then but that was only about a year ago.
regarding your aquaintance who didn't get through the ryanair type rating; what makes you so sure he would have passed if he'd being doing it by himself. I obviously don't know they guy and his personal circumstances, but in general, if enough people undertake a type course, some will fail. this is an unfortunate fact of life. everyone knows when singing up for a self-funded type course (whether it be with ryanair or some of the more respected airlines) there is a chance of failure.
similarly, if you undertake a typerating off your own back then there MUST be a chance of failure - otherwise it is worthless. you don't buy a type rating - you buy the training and then take a test.

I've googled eaglejet and come up with the following : www.eaglejet.net/index.htm

I had never heard of this. from the website i gather you can get 100 hrs on type for $12900US not including typerating. this company actually offers up to 500hrs on type!!
I freely admit i know nothing about this outfit, but on first inspection it almost makes me sick. I really feel bad for someone who is forced down this route - the fact that our industry has come to this is dismal. But that's an entirely different thread altogether.
Getting back to the point, do you know what (jaa) airlines this company places you with? do they actually offer (guaruntee?) any paid employment after you've paid for a rating and then 100 (200/500)hrs?
I can't say for certain but i would imagine that most major uk/european airlines would have very low regard for this kind of experience if you decided to move on. it may even have a detrimental effect to your cv. but that is just speculation on my part. perhaps some current oxford students could ask the various recruitment guys who come in to speak to them.

p.s. - i am assuming that you are uk/europe based and are discussing jaa flying/careers.

[ford cortina]

Col,

Yes I could not agree more, that the world is a bad old place if people are forced down this route.
To be fair there are people with large UK and European companies after finishing with the program. It did not hinder them, they got jobs.

Whether it is morally right or wrong, well I am not going to get into that.
Yes I am disscussing JAA.

[Prophead]

Im struggling to see how the airlines forcing people to pay extra for a TR by asking for this as a requirement, is any different to them forcing people to pay more to go integrated rather than modular, by saying they will only accept/prefer integrated students.

[Philpaz]

Im struggling to see how the airlines forcing people to pay extra for a TR by asking for this as a requirement, is any different to them forcing people to pay more to go integrated rather than modular, by saying they will only accept/prefer integrated students.
I dont think the airlines are forcing anyone to do anything. They are simply taking advantage of peoples desire to get in the RHS of a jet. Thats the whole point of these discussions, you have those that would and those that wouldn't pay. I agree that in principle, paying for Integrated is no different to paying for a TR though. You are using your own financial clout to get a step up on the ladder, the principles are the same.
The simple fact of the matter is that aslong as people are willing to throw money at training then companys hold all the cards, not just the airlines, the FTO's too. I mean seriously, does it cost 65k plus for a (f)ATPL?
If I had 100k burning a hole in my pocket i'd be Integrated now and then if no joy after a few months with the licence i'd be knocking on the door of any airline that would let me SSTR (with a job at the end of course).
IMHO everybody on here disagree's with the system as it is, but the main reason for all the bitching is jealousy. The green eyed monster staring at anyone that makes it to the RHS before they do and picking up on anything that they can to justify to themselves why this is so. If you had the means ofcourse you'd do anything possible to get the job and if you disagree i would suggest your in denial.
A few months ago i was hoping to go to Africa on completion and fly some Seneca/aztec (or similar) to get some experience and have some fun, after a reality check (and a few harsh words from the Mrs) i've realised that at my age i'm best off going straight for the airlines and hoping for the best, i'm modular because i dont have the means to keep my house going and my daughter fed for 18 months without saving for another year and time isn't on my side.
I think the bottom line here is that people choose the training that suits the pocket first and the personality second, this is true in all walks of life otherwise we'd all have DB9's parked outside our palaces.

Dont hate the players, especially the ones that have worked there tits off to have the money to keep there options open.

Also, heres another analogy (just thought of this while listening to my local friendly owl and having a smoke);

Why buy a Ferrari when a fiesta gets you to the same place?
Why get the seacat when the ferry gets you to the same place?
Why take the private jet etc...All these are both ends of the spectrum with the only difference being price and time taken, the answer being because you can.

Just realised how long my post is and cant be bothered reading it back so feel free to give me a broadside,
my wings are like a shield of steel-----BEEP-----.

[Prophead]

I agrre but i dont think its jealousy, yes of course people would like to be able to afford not just £60k+ for the course but also to be able to take all that time off work. However The reason many people cant do this is because they have family, mortgage, their own business etc. Just because they cannot commit to a full time course doesnt mean they are jealous. Alot of modular guys are on the property ladder, how many integrated guys will be able to save a deposit once they get a job and are paying back the huge loan. Some have businesses that will continue to run alongside the flying job once they qualify. As for family im sure no-one regrets that. The idea that alot of integrated guys have, that all modular students are jealous could not be further from the truth. As for being jealous of someone who has got themselves in £70k of debt.:rolleyes:

We are not talking here though about the guys who are lucky enough to afford it or who have saved up the money to pay for it. We are talking about the people willing to get huge loans to finance their training when they could get the same licence for less than half the price. (Yes less than half when you factor in the interest they will pay on their loan)

I also think that if someone has gone integrated and paid more money, on the basis that an airline has told them they prefer integrated students. They should then not complain about someone paying for a type rating on the basis that an airline has said they prefer this. There is no difference. Pay more if you think that gives you a better chance of a job, but dont then put down anyone else for doing exactly the same thing.