Making thing better for the passenger - the aircraft

[Xeque]

The airlines should abandon First, Business and Economy separation on aircraft just as the shipping companies abandoned that outmoded concept on passenger liners 35 years ago.

The bread and butter for all airlines is Economy Class and not First or Business Class as they would have you believe.

How many First or Business Class only airlines are there and how successful are they? The answer is very few.

How many times have you travelled on an aircraft where First Class has been empty and Business Class only partially occupied?

How many times have you seen passengers upgraded to empty First and Business Class seats at no extra charge so that the airline can fill a few more Economy Class seats with standby passengers?

Let the charter companies provide for passengers who can afford (or whose employers/clients can afford) the cost of premium air travel as well as the cost of VIP facilities at airports around the world. Flights for these people then need not be scheduled but provided on an ‘as required’ basis. The fares they pay can also truly reflect the cost and not be subsidized out of Economy Class revenues as is the case now.

Long haul aircraft should be all one-class with interiors laid out in a 2-4-2 or 2-3-2 seat/row configuration and 40 inch seat pitch. This means that no passenger is more than one adjacent seat away from an aisle and the increased seat pitch will allow a passenger ample room to stretch and move about.

It will also allow a complete re-design of passenger seats allowing them to morph into a much more comfortable elongated N shape offering a real chance of cramp free sleep. More importantly it will not take away any space from the passenger in the seat behind.

This cabin lay-out works best with aircraft like the Airbus A330/340 or the Boeing B767 and upcoming B787.

The B747 does not fit the bill with its 3-5-3 arrangement but it is a 45 year old design that isn’t going to be around for much longer anyway. The last B757 was delivered in 2005.

Both the B777 (which will be around for a while) and the lower deck of the new A380 need a radical re-think. The B777’s configuration is bad and offers little improvement over ‘stoneage’ B747 design. The A380’s top deck is fine but a radical re-design of the space available on the lower deck is required otherwise it, too, will be no better than the old 747’s.

Some new ideas are emerging for a major re-design of aircraft toilets. This includes separate Male and Female rooms and the introduction of urinals for men. An excellent idea and long overdue.

[M.Mouse]

I am not sure where you derive your numbers in your initial statement of 'The bread and butter for all airlines is Economy Class and not First or Business Class as they would have you believe.' but you are quite wrong.

Full fare 'Economy' does have a high yield but in reality few pay 'full fare'.

Believe me if airlines thought that by doing away with First and Business class they could make more money would have done so years ago.

Your post is wishful thinking on behalf of the long suffering economy passenger. You get the space and 'comfort' you pay for.

[ZFT]

Try and book an F or B seat from Asia to Europe. They are all full. Some E though.

[jetset lady]

Xeque,

There are already long haul aircraft laid out with the seating pitch and configuration you are requesting. They are those same Business Class only airlines you think are pointless!

JSL

[apaddyinuk]

What are you smoking Xeque????

[UniFoxOs]

Believe me if airlines thought that by doing away with First and Business class they could make more money would have done so years ago.

Quite right, in fact it seems to me that more and more airlines are offerring "Premium economy" and more people are looking for it as an option. (Of course maybe if you take this to the extreme all flights will end up as PE - perhaps this is what Xeque is imagining??)

UFO

[Xeque]

So how is it that the LCC business model is so successful then?

[Xeque]

Long haul aircraft should be all one-class with interiors laid out in a 2-4-2 or 2-3-2 seat/row configuration and 40 inch seat pitch. This means that no passenger is more than one adjacent seat away from an aisle and the increased seat pitch will allow a passenger ample room to stretch and move about.

We already have that Economy Class configuration in the A330/340. What needs to change is the seat pitch.

[nebpor]

So how is it that the LCC business model is so successful then?

Maybe it's because they fly flights of only a few hours length (at most), thus have little need for lie-flat beds, in-flight entertainment or lavish catering, demanded by many business (or simply wealthy) people.

Compare apples with apples, not oranges :E

[UniFoxOs]

Pretty sure you are right there - I often find self and Mrs UFO saying "We can put up with xxxx - it's only a couple of hours", when booking a loco - the sweetness of the low basic fare mitigates the cramping, queueing, crowding etc. However when booking long-haul it's more likely "Do they have PE? We don't want to be cramped up for 9 hours, we'll pay the £xxx extra"

UFO

[Xeque]

Read all my posts properly. That's one of the things I'm advocating - letting the charter companies handle First and Business needs so that the airlines can upgrade Economy to Premium Economy.

[Final 3 Greens]

So how is it that the LCC business model is so successful then?

You mean like Oasis?

[TFlyguy]

Whilst shipping companies may no longer advertise "First Class", the more you pay, the better the cabin and on some ships the better the restaurant.

[Xeque]

Absolutely correct and if you read my thread subtitled 'What we pay' you will see that I've covered that as well.

[VAFFPAX]

Seat pitch would just about be the only thing that would need to change in A343/5/6 - They already use a 2-4-2 or 2-3-2 config, which leaves you with a maximum of one seat away from the aisle.

The 744 config of 3-5-3 is ancient... which airlines still use that config?

S.

[chornedsnorkack]

No, actually not.

The All-business airline pitches are:

Privatair - 56 inches (narrowbody)
Silverjet - 60 inches (narrowbody)
L´Avion - 48 inches (narrowbody)

As for 40 inch pitch... well the SQ 340-500 has 37 inches 7 abreast Executive Economy, but they are getting rid of it.


The B747 does not fit the bill with its 3-5-3 arrangement

747 has never had 3-5-3. And no other plane has had it.

747 is usually 3-4-3.

Once upon a time, standard 747 Economy was 3-4-2, 9 abreast.

For most airlines that do have premium economy, it is a small section at the very front of economy. Not so on EVA Air. They have a huge 8 abreast, 38 inch or so pitch premium economy on 747, and a small economy minus at standard 10 abreast and 32 inches pitch at the rear. Do they do well with this business model? And does any other airline follow suit?

[Xeque]

In 1983 I travelled Paris to Bangkok on a Thai 747 where I occupied the centre seat of 5 across. I accept that it probably was something that even the bean counters couldn't justify because Thai don't do it any more and I admit that I haven't noticed it recently on any other airline. It still leaves ABC and HJK on the sides though.

I do remember seeing a 3-5-3 seating plan published during the early days of the A380 development so that is still a possibility. God forbid that an airline actually tries it.

The problem that I have with Premium Economy is that for the extra comfort you get it is monstrously over priced.

You mention EVA Air. EVA is my airline of choice when I fly to Europe 2-3 times a year on business. I now know my way around their cabin layouts (B777 and B747) and when I allocate myself my seat on line I know which ones give you the best space in Economy. I have also amassed a lot of air-miles with them and look forward to some upgrade perks soon. :)

[chornedsnorkack]

In 1983 I travelled Paris to Bangkok on a Thai 747 where I occupied the centre seat of 5 across. I accept that it probably was something that even the bean counters couldn't justify because Thai don't do it any more and I admit that I haven't noticed it recently on any other airline. It still leaves ABC and HJK on the sides though.

11 abreast is still too narrow. Martinair, however, is known to have had 10 abreast DC-10s in 3-5-2 layout.

[Xeque]

Maybe the Thai 747 was laid out in 2-5-2 and I just didn't notice how the window seats were arranged. Definitely 5 across in the middle though. I just came across a photo of a L1011 layout that is the same 2-5-2. Its a Hajj aircraft so they'd certainly pack 'em in there.

[VAFFPAX]

The only layout where 3-5-3 was ever a possibility was a single-class layout by certain Japanese airlines who wanted to cram 880 pax into a A380 in a single-class layout. From experience I know that Japanese seating arrangements can be narrower than what we are used to in Europe (Shinkansen being one example), so it is possible there.

But it's an outdated seating arrangement. All airlines I've flown with have done a 3-4-3 at the most in a B747.

S.

[chornedsnorkack]

The only layout where 3-5-3 was ever a possibility was a single-class layout by certain Japanese airlines who wanted to cram 880 pax into a A380 in a single-class layout.

The difference in width between A380 and B747 is not enough for one extra seat, but the difference in width between A380 and B777 is about the width of one seat. 10 abreast, 3-4-3 seating on 777 is cramped, but 11 abreast, 3-5-3 on A380 is no worse.

Two early A380 customers are notorious for having 10 abreast on 777. Emirates also has 7 abreast "business class" on A330 planes. Air France flies 777-300ER with a total of 472 seats: just 14 business class at 7 abreast, then they call 9 abreast in 777 "premium economy" (at 36 inches pitch or so in Alize class, 4 rows with 36 seat total), the rest is 422 cattle class seats.

So, we can well imagine an Air France A380 having 11 seats abreast cattle class on lower deck, 8 abreast "premium" Alize class seats over most of upper deck and a few rows of 6 abreast business class at the very front of upper deck.

[Xeque]

From todays Daily Telegraph on-line

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/04/28/cneos128.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/04/28/cneos128.xml)

As I said when I opened this thread:-
How many First or Business Class only airlines are there and how successful are they? The answer is very few.


The mistake IMHO is to try and run scheduled flights. Let the charter companies do it on an 'as required' basis.

[PAXboy]

XequeThat's one of the things I'm advocating - letting the charter companies handle First and Business needs so that the airlines can upgrade Economy to Premium Economy.The whole Charter/Scheduled airline thing has gone by the board. The LCCs have annexed the cheaper 'charter' territory and the Charters now run scheduled too. The regulars have specialised with some Biz only (notably Privat Air) and others are doing Y-only with short seat pitch. VS have expanded their PE product due to demand, others provide Y-only.

The concept of short/medium/long haul is also getting turned around. Some will consider six hours as medium and some see it as long. Some folks will take a 3-hour LCC and spend a week there, then another short flight for the second week and then a triangular 4/5 hour flight home again - all with LCC. Or, again, with a mixture. The market still has a long way to settle down into a stable pattern. The driver of the past decade was the LCCs and the driver of this decade will be the recession and price of oil (inextricably linked)

I do remember seeing a 3-5-3 seating plan published during the early days of the A380 development so that is still a possibility.That which is shown as marketing and that which emerges rarely meet.

[WHBM]

In 1983 I travelled Paris to Bangkok on a Thai 747 where I occupied the centre seat of 5 across. I accept that it probably was something that even the bean counters couldn't justify because Thai don't do it any more and I admit that I haven't noticed it recently on any other airline.
My guess is you were in a DC-10, which Thai used to Europe in 1983. The usual configuration of a DC-10 was 2-5-2 which gave the 5-across in the centre sectionand 9-across overall. A number of MD-11 oerators went for the same, others went for 3-3-3.

11 abreast is still too narrow. Martinair, however, is known to have had 10 abreast DC-10s in 3-5-2 layout.Martinair had an extraordinary 3-4.5-2 arrangement in their DC-10s when they first came, with a narrow central seat between two standard seats each side of it in the centre section. The idea was that this seat would be assigned to children, given that much of their Martinair operation was on holiday routes. A whole raft of practical difficulties (which in all honesty ought to have been foreseen) led to its abandonment.

[spiney]

This is all getting a bit 'Geeky'... Asinine discussions about seat configuration.. To be honest, I'm more worried about planes falling out of the sky... Airlines don't arrive at seat configurations by accident, they believe they will achieve the best return on their investment with the configuration they have - and if they don't, they will change it, accept lower profits or go out of business.

If you don't like the seating, fly another airline, or pay more for the seat you'd really like. And if that can't or doesn't work, you still have the option not to travel by air at all - and if that's not an option - tough.... and guess what? The airline will know that too.

Competition, choice and the mechanisms of the marketplace - great stuff.

[PAXboy]

spiney is correct. A few years ago, AA made a big publicity splash about increasing the seat pitch of the Y cabin. The TV adverts showed the seats being bodily pulled out of the airframe to make more space.

They reckoned that the increased number of pax would offset the fewer number of seats. Guess what? It didn't and, as I understood it, they started to reverse the decision.

Money. That's all.

[chornedsnorkack]

There are limits to seat size, though. Like the 9 abreast and 10 abreast B777. Emirates has 10 abreast. Air France has some planes with 9 abreast and some with 10 abreast. British Airways had 10 abreast and had to drop this.