Bmi seat assignment separating families

[AlexW1]

My family is regularly frustrated by the bmi booking system which seems to lack logic in assigning seats to families travelling together.
I have lost count of the number of times that the default seat assignment has put my young children (currently 7 and 4) in seats nowhere near myself or my husband. Since the system knows we are travelling together and knows the ages of the children it should be clever enough to assign the seats appropriately.
As we normally travel at the cheapest fare the online check-in does not let us change the seats. Invariably we are told at the airport ‘oh the crew will sort it out on board’. I have been on flights where several families were in the same situation. The crew must be fed up with being left to deal with this sort of problem. I don’t understand why it is allowed to happen. It has been going on for years. I did once write to bmi but just got a stock letter back saying that this was just how the system was. Just wondering whether anyone on here has got any background info or thoughts on this.

[apaddyinuk]

I know it is of no help what soever but that is just how the system works. A computer is not capable of making the difference between people traveling with children and those without. And the programming would lead to complexities. As far as I am aware there is no airline which is able to provide such a service via their computer systems. Thats just the way it is. It should be able, but it is not, no one has designed a system which can! I am sure you would find the same problem with most airlines.

Best bet if you really want seats together is to either pay a higher fare or turn up bright and early at the check-in desk to secure yourself seats together.

[Sark]

Surely from a safety point of view, in the event of a real emergency, it is essential that a child is seated next to the person responsible for them.

Flybe do this to me on a regular basis, I just believe that it is a ploy to get me to pay for seat reservation at the time of booking.

[groundbum]

ref apaddyinuk saying it's not at all possible for the computer to do this. Quite wrong!

A computer will do whatever it's told, and can do anything you want it to do. I could make a computer that poured nice cups of tea whilst dancing the can-can!

The reason computers do not do all that you want them to do is that nobody wants to pay for it, ie commercial reasons!

now obviously the BMI computer knows it has a reservation for 2 adults and 2 children aged 4 and 7. So somebody at BMI can sit there and write a rule for the computer that says they should try and sit this group together, or the rule that every children must be near an adult member of the group, ie 1 adult to 3 children or whatever, etc etc.

Why hasn't BMI spent the couple of thousand quid this would cost sorting this? Maybe because everytime you change something on a computer you run a good chance of breaking something else. Maybe they have so few bookings like this it's not cost effective. Maybe it's because they do want you to pay for more expensive seats where this is doable. Maybe they want to discourage young families cos they don't make money on them. etc etc.

but I bet somebody somewhere has done a cost/benefit analysis and decided it's not important enough to get done. Kinda like my DIY list! I know all the broken things at home, it's a matter of them getting to the top of the to-do list. Same with big computer programs.

[traymat]

Had the same issue when flying Virgin Gatwick-Orlando-Gatwick. Children at the time was 3 and 7. We where placed on four different seats throughout the airplane. I guess the neighbour to the 3 year old wouldnt been too impressed to look after a 3 year old for 9 odd hours. Only after demanding to speak to the station manager at Orlando (Swedish lady, very helpfull), did we get seats together in the middle row.

On KLM when you check in online, you can not check in seats for the children. Recently checked in a party of 9 including one infant and one child. When all adults checked in, the system tells you that you can not check the child. Great! It was sorted on the airport but it just adds on the stress when flying with a large party and especially children.

[frontcheck]

Reservations for children can regularly cause problems, there are a number of reasons, the most recent is caused by lower fares that do not offer a discount for children, in other words a family of 4 all pay the same price, adult or child, the system then just see's four seats and not necessarily that there are children involved.Staff at airport will normally do their best to change seat assignment , however if the request is made near to flight closure it is often easier to sort out onboard, as any last minute seat changes can cause confusion and duplication at the boarding stage, which is precisely the time you want things to go smoothly.

[apaddyinuk]

Well actually Groundbum....

Nine times out of ten the computer does not know the childrens ages. Can you remember the last time you booked a ticket and were asked your age??? I cant. I have been asked for my date of birth for my APIS entry but that is not associated with the booking process and therefore not linked.

Airlines in the past used to assign seats based on group bookings (if you booked as two or more passengers then generally if available the seats would automatically be assigned together) but this led to problems in that perfect strangers could be seated next to one another if they were booked as part of a large group etc etc.

Now with a general industry wide cut on costs this has changed and airlines now only provide seat assignments on a limited basis. Hence BA only allow you to select your seat 24hours in advance if you check in online (unless you are a FF) and obviously BMI are now doing something similar.

Facilities with most airlines do exist to allow you to get seats together so why not use them instead of coming online and complaining about it? I appreciate Alex's problem and I can imagine it is very stressful (is it obvious I am not a parent???) however she also admits that she pays for the cheapest ticket and therefore...the old saying "You get what you pay for" etc etc. Now if she had said she paid the highest fare I certainly would be saying something different.

Perhaps BMI should adopt a similar scheme as Aer Lingus have where you have to pay per seat for an assignment!

But as for a computer being designed to work around this kind of thing? Well computers are not "intelligent" yet, they are unable to make those kind of assumptions. Indeed all it takes is for someone to design one that does but this has not happened yet!!! And this is exactly what I said in my previous post which Groundbum had difficulty understanding despite restating exactly what I said about complexities only in a different way!!!!

[lexxity]

Our wonderful system at bmi is not actually a bmi system. It is actually German and guess what, it's LH's, so all changes have to go through Frankfurt, I would guess that they are aware of this problem though. Up at MAN we will always try and accommodate families together and sort any problems brought to our attention.

[AlexW1]

It's interesting to come back and read the replies!
I'm actually a computer programmer myself and I know that the coding logic should not in theory be difficult. With bmi booking you do in fact state the exact ages of children so the system (or some part of it) does have the information regarding the people in the booking and their ages.
I appreciate that 'you get what you pay for' - but if you turn it the other way and consider that if I were more than happy to stick with travelling seated away from the children, the inconvenience would be on some complete stranger - who would be 'enjoying' the delightful company of a strange child because I had chosen to save some money. Sounds a good deal to me, put perhaps the stranger would not feel he/she had 'got what they paid for'!

Seriously, though, I would assume that an airline would prefer to avoid the hassle of having to sort this sort of thing out with the musical chairs seat-swapping that is involved. I have occasionally had this happen on other airlines too, but bmi seems to be particularly prone to it. Note also that the online check-in systems for some other airlines do let you change your seat when you have the cheap fares - KLM initially sat us apart on a transatlantic flight last month, but luckily their online check-in allowed us to reassign the seats in advance.

As for turning up early at check-in to get it corrected, I've tried that on occasion and just been told that they can't do anything so to sort it on the plane. I've also tried telephoning in advance when I can see the default seat allocation but prior to completing online check-in through online and been told the same thing. It seems as if whatever the system comes up with is unchangeable by anyone other than the people on the plane.

I'm happy enough to just keep getting it sorted out on board but as an IT person I'm genuinely surprised that what seems to me should be a trivial fix is considered unsurmountable or something that should only be available to people travelling in higher fare classes.

Thanks for the thoughts.

p.s. dare I even ask why the bmi system *always* addresses me as 'Mr' on the online boarding card printouts when my booking confirmation refers to me correctly as 'Mrs'?!! Or would that be a question too far? Not that anyone at security or the gate ever seems bothered that I don't match the gender label on my boarding card....

[AlexW1]

Just re-read Traymat's reference to KLM not permitting online check-in with children - that's interesting as that's what they told us on the telephone when we flew AMS-YUL last month (I'd called with a different query and they went out of their way to say 'by the way, you can't do online check-in with children'). So we took that as read and checked in in person. But on the way back we managed to do it online without any problem. And in fact we also flew KLM this weekend just gone and checked the children in online both ways no problem at all. Weird.

[michamen]

As crew I come across this situation many times,however(as an example) 50% of the time a family of 4-2 adults, 2 children will of been allocated 2 lots of 2 seats(wether being by the online booking system or due to the time that they have checked in at the airport on a full flight)on boarding the two parents will insist that they havebeen seperated from their "3 and 6 year old children"!As a parent myself of course I would ask if anything could be done for my family to sit together -however I would not leave my 2 youngsters sat on there own next to a stranger-I would sit myself next to one child and my husband next to the other!-Common sense?Caring parent?Call it what you want but unfortunatly it does not happen most of the time.

[deltayankee]

Just re-read Traymat's reference to KLM not permitting online check-in with children


I think that this restriction applies only to under-twos with a lap belt and no assigned seat. A candid employee once told me that this is just because of a software bug that they can't or won't fix. Computers can do anything but someone has to want to pay for it.

But to answer the original question, be early at the check in and if that doesn't work change airline.

[jimworcs]

Paddyintheuk says A computer is not capable of making the difference between people traveling with children and those without. And the programming would lead to complexities. As far as I am aware there is no airline which is able to provide such a service via their computer systems. Thats just the way it is. It should be able, but it is not, no one has designed a system which can! I am sure you would find the same problem with most airlines.


and then says Best bet if you really want seats together is to either pay a higher fare

Am I being stupid, or do these statements contradict each other? If the computer is incapable of the task, how would paying a higher fare make any difference.

The truth is, airlines are constantly looking for ways to increase revenues and some of the methods now adopted are bordering on the sinister. I am not necessarily saying BMI are up to this, but for example, Ryanair will not guarantee a seat for even a very young child next to their parent, unless the parent pays for the priviledge. This is a form of taxing parental anxiety. Low income people must potentially put their child at risk, or find the flight unaffordable, whilst higher income people are nicely taken care of. Sooner or later this will backfire. A child will be sexually assulted by a stranger sat next to them, and who will be responsible in this case? The child was forcibly separated from the parent by the airline... the airline had better hope I was not on a jury hearing that case.

[AlexW1]

michamen said
50% of the time a family of 4-2 adults, 2 children will of been allocated 2 lots of 2 seats

I certainly wouldn't consider that a problem as some people obviously do, from what you say. Likewise if we get a 3 together but an odd one somewhere else, that's fine too. And if on paper we get assigned the two children together somewhere and us together somewhere else then of course we just switch among ourselves.

In the original situation of real concern (i.e. both children separate from each other and their parents) it's not just the inconvenience to us as much as the knock-on inconvenience to other passengers and the crew whatever we do (i.e. shifting people around causes disruption but not shifting and leaving lone children with strangers doesn't go down well with the strangers).

[apaddyinuk]

JIMWORCS

Yes you are missing something. Or perhaps I just did not explain myself correctly. Some airlines will charge you more for the ability to make a seat assignment!

[apaddyinuk]

"the inconvenience would be on some complete stranger - who would be 'enjoying' the delightful company of a strange child because I had chosen to save some money. Sounds a good deal to me, put perhaps the stranger would not feel he/she had 'got what they paid for'!"

Hehehe, Touche!!!

You got me on that one! I like your sense of humour!

[frontcheck]

"p.s. dare I even ask why the bmi system *always* addresses me as 'Mr' on the online boarding card printouts when my booking confirmation refers to me correctly as 'Mrs'?!! Or would that be a question too far? Not that anyone at security or the gate ever seems bothered that I don't match the gender label on my boarding card...."

There is limited character space on boarding pass, so if you have a long surname, it is possible that the system just simply runs out of space and always finishes at the same point ie the "r" of Mr. There again maybe bmi know something you do not :p

[G-TTIC]

Nine times out of ten the computer does not know the childrens ages.No, but the computer knows that they are children.

There is absolutely nothing, from a programming point of view, to stop this sort of thing being introduced, apart from airlines not being willing to pay for it. It's not hard - children on booking, seat next/near to adults on booking.

[Final 3 Greens]

the old saying "You get what you pay for" etc etc

Paddy, you seem to be saying that cheap fares do not qualify for the CAA's safety recommendation that younger children should be seated next to their parents.

Do you really mean this?

[G-BPED]

the old saying "You get what you pay for" etc etc

Paddy, you seem to be saying that cheap fares do not qualify for the CAA's safety recommendation that younger children should be seated next to their parents.

Do you really mean this?

I think that what Paddy means is, if you buy full fare tickets than you can choose your seats at the time of booking.

Then you avoid the stress of trying to get seated together at check-in or playing musical chairs once you board.

Either way, my personal feeling is that all airlines should allocate seating for children with their parents/guardians irrespective of the price paid for the seats.

Regards,

G-BPED

[apaddyinuk]

F3G,

I am not so sure that there is a CAA recommendation such as that which exists, the CAA are not in the habit of making recommendations based on assumptons such as all children are travelling with their parents or guardians. However if such a recommendation does exist then it is simply that, a "recommendation"! Airlines would not be obliged to accommodate it. They will certainly do their best and I dont know a single crew member who would refuse to try and resit a separated family but when you buy a seat you do not buy a specific one, you literally just buy any old seat and it is up to you to get ahead of the game and try to get the particular one you want! Sad but true!

[Final 3 Greens]

Paddy

Quote from CAA website....

CAA guidelines ask airlines to develop procedures for the seat allocation of family groups, particularly when a group includes children. It is probable that family group members would seek each other out should an emergency evacuation be required, an action that could adversely affect the rapid evacuation of the aircraft. Children should be seated where they can be adequately supervised by an accompanying adult in the event of turbulence or a decompression in the cabin.

Children, accompanied by adults, should ideally be seated in the same seat row as the adult.

In wide-bodied aircraft, children and accompanying adults should not be separated by more than one aisle. Where this is not possible, children should be separated by no more than one seat row from accompanying adults.

Comment please?

[frontcheck]

There are an awful lot of "should's" in the above statement !:hmm:

[Final 3 Greens]

There are an awful lot of "should's" in the above statement

Agreed. Should implies a guideline, shall implies a legal requirement.

Even so, there is an intention by the CAA to promote good practice and I am a little surprised that Apaddyintheuk, who is generally on the ball, was apparently not aware, since I would have expected the airlines to promulgate these guidelines in line with the CAA recommendation.

[frontcheck]

I have been in the airline business for over 30 years and never seen anything from CAA regarding this. However as stated previously, if a family are seperated I will do everything possible to get them together , but if they turn up at -5 minutes to closure, := there is very little can be done given the time constraints.

[6chimes]

At bmi we are trained that young children must be seated next to their parent or guardian for decompressions etc. We don't go anywhere until they are. We were also trained that it was a CAA directive and F3G has posted it here. Not only that though; we all know that we do live in a less than satisfactory society these days which has led us to consider the imlications of placing a minor next to a person tavelling alone (obviously the implication is a male but could be female). Yes it is very sad that we have to consider this but we cant ignore it anymore.

6