Would the cancellation of FLynx be the end of the Army Air Corps?

[+SHRA]

The decision on Future Lynx has still not been announced. However if it were to be cancelled, with no replacement for current Lynx or Gazelle, do people think that the Army Air Corps is still a viable organization with just the Apaches, a few fixed wing and the odd other rotary assets here and there?

If not where would these aircraft and people best sit?

Ideas, comments and theories welcome!

[serf]

5 years tops then subsumed into the RAF.

[Reptile 1]

There is already talk that Apache may be shifted to the RAF meaning the end of the AAC in the not to distant future which may well mean FLynx has been scrapped its so over due its unreal if it was in now or in the next year it may well mean the AAC stays but with the Lynx retirement date between 2010-2011 and Gazelle earlier it may mean the end of the AAC.

[Scotch Bonnet]

Yes. You do not need a Corps to field 36 AH, and no I didn't mean 48 AH!

[ericferret]

All it means is that there will be an "upgrade" program for the existing Lynx/Gaz fleet and they will soldier on.

Helicopters do not have a finite life. Hence we still see Alouette 2 and 3 in military service around the world. The German army recently retired an Alouette with around 50 years service under it's belt. The Gaz are around 35 the Lynx less. Spares are an issue, small runs cost more, but this is a year on year maintenance budget, not an aircraft replacement program.

It would actually make more sence to combine the whole army support helicopter force into one unit under the control of the user. Hello army air corps, goodbye RAF SH fleet.

[Two's in]

There is already talk that Apache may be shifted to the RAF meaning the end of the AAC

I think this line dates back to the coachload of nurses/Flt attendants arriving imminently at the Unit Disco, LOA being increased, and Warsteiner being DM20 a crate. Mind you, if you repeat a rumour often enough it begins to develop a life of its own.

[diginagain]

Spot on, Two's in - similar talk of subsumation was bandied about around the same time as the Lynx was coming into AAC service.

[Reptile 1]

Well its not a Roumour its a suggestion that was put forward to Commander JHC. ''Bin the AAC and give the RAF the Apache'' were the words.

[jayteeto]

20 years on, same old arguments and rumours. The SH Force will be army because the RAF have given you up etc etc. The AAC can't support Apache etc etc. The question to ask is......... where do the AAC senior officers stand in JHC at the moment? Are there enough senior RN and RAF bods to make a move?? Just joking, there is a place for everyone in the UK armed forces. Each service offers a slightly different product that , believe it or not, makes sure that all bases are covered (only just at times). If you were all one hat, things would be sidelined if the commander of the day thought it unimportant. LSH to the AAC and MSH to the RN/RAF, Apache to.......... any of them ;)

[ericferret]

Its probably worth a look at what roughly equivalent army aviation units are operating in Europe.

The French still operate over 300 Gazelle and are looking forward to the NH90 to replace some of the 158 Puma variants. 67 Tigers

The Germans are operating 79 Bell UH1 (1962 design!!!) 185 BO 105, 108 CH 53(40 which are just being upgraded, another 1960's design), 78 Tigers, 75 NH 90 on order.

Italy has 130 Huey variants, 22 A109, 109 Bell 206, 39 Chinook, 60 129, 60 NH 90 on order.

Spain has 40 Huey variants, 13 206, 17 Chinooks, 47 Pumas, 24 Tiger, 58 BO105, NH 90 on order to replace the Hueys and Pumas.

UK 70 Gazelle, 100 Lynx, 67 Apache, 40 future Lynx on order.

The first thing that strikes is how small the AAC is given UK military commitments.

Secondly all the attack helicopters are operated by army aviation units around Europe..

Thirdly none of the other European nations seem to have a problem with the army operating up to Chinook size.

The European committment to the NH 90 has left the UK out in the cold. We should bite the bullet cancel future Lynx, order the NH90 and tell Westland to try and get on board with Boeing for a Chinook replacement. In any case Westlands is now part of the group building the NH 90. We can't continue to support Westland at the taxpayers and the militaries expense. I doubt that there will be much scope for overseas sales of future Lynx so the whole development burden will fall on the UK taxpayer.

If UK governments want to be a world player then they are going to have to stump up the money. I question their priorities, World player or Olympic games? £20billion buys a lot of helicopters. The AAC needs a firm commitment from the government as to it's future, I am not holding my breath!!!!!!!

[Door Slider]

I dont think there is any stomach amongst senior officers from either force to start a huge bunfight with regards to BH, SH and AH. It would only cause more harm than good and more than likey only result in losses.The NH90 would be great, chances of getting it, slim to none :*

[teeteringhead]

And anyhoo, post JHC/JPA/Jwhatevrnext, does it really matter who operates what ......??

..... if t'Army can run the infantry with about 30 something capbadges, surely we can fly rotary with three .......;)

[Evalu8ter]

Gents,
IMHO it would be a RW disaster if the RAF got hold of Apache (speaking as a Crab..) because the pervading sympathy in the RAF would be "why send AH to do a Harriers job and lose a couple of DSOs?" The pressure on RW procurement would get even worse; the trouble is that I don't think the AAC has many friends at the top table of the Army. It's not the right cap-badge, officers do not serve sucessful full careers and AH has taken a lot of LAND's budget that they would rather spend on Tanks, Artillery and mustard cords / ridiculous jumpers.

IMHO if we want to be serious about RW Avn, we need to seperate JHC out into its' own TLB to cut it away from the craven desires of the 3 services. While we're at it, lets put amphib ships and JFH into it as well and create a USMC style fourth service that is capability, not equipment, obsessed and trains for today's conflicts not some military-industrial complex satisfying "virtual" conflict against a peer enemy...

[Stratofreighter]

Re The Netherlands:

Apart from the Westland Lynx of the Dutch Navy ALL military helicopters in "Cloggyland" are operated by the Air Force. And that includes the Chinook.

Worse still: when all Lynx helos are replaced by NH90s in a couple of years time (first one about to be delivered!) the "Marine Luchtvaart Dienst MLD"/Dutch Naval Air Service will be merged into some sort of "Joint Helicopter Command" just like the Swedes and the Belgians have now.

[GPMG]

I hope the RAF don't get the Apache if the AAC go. After all it would be nice to be able to call on a gunship even if there is a hint of moisture in the air.

[Firefly noob]

:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[WE Branch Fanatic]

While we're at it, lets put amphib ships and JFH into it as well and create a USMC style fourth service that is capability, not equipment, obsessed and trains for today's conflicts not some military-industrial complex satisfying "virtual" conflict against a peer enemy...


Err, the US amphibious ships are part of the US Navy.

[High_lander]

I believe the USMC is infact part of the USN, and usually get the funding needed throught the USNs budget.

[Two's in]

But it is funny that given the amount of taxpayer's money we are currently investing in Typhoon and JSF - Platforms desperately searching for a threat to operate against, that the RAF seemingly have the hots for the AAC's Apaches. I do hope some speccy **** of an accountant gets around to doing a Return on Investment case for Typhoon and JSF against that for RAF Harrier and Support Heli's.

[Floater AAC]

We're DOOMED, DOOMED I tell you. DAAvn havn't given a toss about the men/women or aircraft other than Apache for years and it will either bite them on the arse with the death of the Corps or it was intended from the beginning (although I don't think they are that bright).

[ericferret]

I pulled my figures from the latest issue of Helicopter International. I tried to include countries of a similar size to the UK.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

The AH64 is an airborne MBT/AFV and integral to the Land battle space. It should stay with the brown jobs firmly on their ORBAT. Theoretically, JHC could make the A/C available to Air tasks if it was needed; but what the hell would they task it with? Recce, interdiction? hardly likely.

If Land are having problems crewing it or maintaining it, though, that's another matter.

[Evalu8ter]

"Theoretically, JHC could make the A/C available to Air tasks if it was needed"

And this is exactly the problem from LAND's point of view. When deployed, the AH could well sit within the JFACC's tasking chain, not the JFLCC's. Therefore, LAND (who also pay for the running of the SH force) would be paying a large chunk of their budget to see the asset taken from them when deployed.

During GW1 and on numerous exercises / ops since, AH have been tasked with more and more AIR-centric roles such as SEAD, CAS, Escort and recce/FAC (the ac has a more than useful sensor suite..) and it needs to be tasked by the ATO. This is not the mass-killing of T-72s that the ac was originally procured for, and, arguably, it is too capable an asset to be at a battalion commanders beck and call "just in case..".

It is NOT a MBT or IFV; it brings the traditional AIR values of range / speed / ubiquity to the close battle, but does not have the permanance of armour / troops. To use it like a tank is to mis-employ a very expensive & capable asset.

If LAND have a problem with AH, it's affording to run it when FRES is in danger, and the distaste that the wider army has for offerring the AAC similar status and career prospects as Para, Guards and RA personnel in order to keep their expensively trained pilots.

[Squirrel 41]

Evalu8ter,

Quite right - Aapche is not a "tank with a fan" as a 'Brown Job' once described it to me. (Don't suppose he came up with this term - didn't seem bright enough, quite apart from anything else.... :yuk:)

Anyway, the point is that it should be properly tasked, as it can provide some very useful capability and may need deconfliction. But is the issue mindset or structure? Though a crab, I could understand the doctrinal case for passing SH to the Army - as the Aussies did 20 years ago.

And if the AAC decide that the Apaches need a half-way house, they can always give them to the rockapes..... :E

(Or perhaps not! :O )

S41

[chopper2004]

I recall rumors 20 years back when the AAC were considering the Apache and then the RAF wanted to jump in and take the Apache and get rid of the Harrier. Then in 96, in farnborough special in Flight International when they were talking about FOAS and the old proposed then stealthy A-12 from USA as a proposed platform for the RAF, then mentioned that the Apache could take the CAS role from the Harrier.

[PTC REMF]

Considering the rate at which AAC pilots are joining the RAF, then I think the merger has already begun.

[elf]

If AH has "ubiquity", perhaps the circle of inevitability should be forced (in the style of a frazzled parent trying to resolve an argument between two children) by giving it to the Royal Artillery.
Come to think of it, why not go back one more step and ask the Royal Engineers if they'd like it?

[Faithless]

Read an article ref the FLynx and the stupid amount of money for 70 FLynx for the Army and Navy and for less money the Americans are getting 500 plus upgraded Blackhawk/Seahawks and with 20 odd years support package.

Anybody from Lynx IPT care to answer why FLynx is on hold?:confused:

[althenick]

I don't know how much of eric's post is correct, but I do know that the Royal Netherlands Air Force operates the AH-64D Apache

I was talking to an ex-RNLAF bod a couple of months back and I asked this question. He said that although the KLU owned the aircraft, it was the Army that flew them, same with Chinnok and (When they had it) the Orions. It seems that they have more Idea about how to do jointery than the UKDF.

As for the AAC being part of the RAF...

Is it me? or has anyone else figured out that this would cause a serous increase in the wage bill

AAC - Mainly NCO Aircrew
RAF - All Officer Aircrew

could anyone give a ballpark figure for the wage bill increase?

Al

[richatom]

Considering the rate at which AAC pilots are joining the RAF, then I think the merger has already begun.


AAC - Mainly NCO Aircrew
RAF - All Officer Aircrew



Do AAC NCO joining RAF get commissioned then? Or is migration limited to Officers?

[chopper2004]

richatom,

I heard of AAC NCO pilots transferring to RAF AND gaining commissions in the 90s to gain more experience on Pumas and Chinooks in essence to gain experience in heavy multi engined helis so when they left the services it would get them in good steed for North Sea commercial ops and gained their CPL/ATPL(H)s.

[[email protected]]

Allthenick - that might have been the case with Lynx and Gazelle but nowadays the Apache crews seem to be predominantly officer types. Most of the SNCOs I worked with at Wallop for 7 years are commissioned and the number of true blue AAC officers graduating from Sandhurst increased massively once AH came on the scene.

I believe the AAC have also done away with Cpl pilots (the really cheap option) as well so the wage bill would not be that different - the main difference is that the RAF would be able to offer them a full career flying AH instead of jumping through promotion hoops to keep up with the green army.

Richatom - when we have taken SNCOs, they have been commissioned in the RAF after a short course (or not so short in some cases) at Cranwell.

[Mister-T]

Faithless

Whilst I am not in the Lynx IPT per se I am involved with this project and will try albeit briefly to answer your question.

F Lynx has been in the PR 08 planning round since last year and whilst a decision was due to have been made toward the back end of 2007 it was delayed until as it was explained to me March this year. In March I was informed the decision was again delayed until early April and I have since been informed a further delay has been enforced with a possible window in early summer.

One thing I can explain is that it isn't delayed because the project is not up to speed or indeed to the specification wanted by the MoD but simply because it may be reconsidered/reduced/delayed as part of the savings needed to be made over the coming years.

Only the Defence Board and I imagine the cabinet have the answers and believe me there has been absolutely no leakage there, and hence you will have to join the long queue of people wanting to know what is going on.

[Always a Sapper]

Come to think of it, why not go back one more step and ask the Royal Engineers if they'd like it?


mmm, now there's a thought elf! def' a well guchy bit of kit and would look good on the bar roof...... but it would depend on how much beer you can get in it? not to mention the dems ladders, rolls of 14 gauge, 'hi-bike' kit, shovels etc... oh and the chippy's tool kit? :}


Ok.. we thought about it, yeah, we'll take em, please deliver to Brompton Bks and leave on the square next to the cannons..... :E

[TheWizard]

GPMG
I hope the RAF don't get the Apache if the AAC go. After all it would be nice to be able to call on a gunship even if there is a hint of moisture in the air.

A bit like being able to call on a Lynx or Sea King when there is the slightest hint in a rise in air temperature then:ouch:

btw how's the RAF transfer paperwork going? :E

[Faithless]

Thanks Mister-T :ok:

But is the future bright :cool: or is it Dull :(?

[rogerk]

Army pilots flies Army helicopters 'cos they all speak "Army"
"Crab Air" don't do claggy mornings, muddy fields, and as for bullets !!:ok:

[TheWizard]

Army pilots flies Army helicopters 'cos they all speak "Army"
"Crab Air" don't do claggy mornings, muddy fields, and as for bullets !!

Time warp alert!!:p
How is the land of the cheese eating surrender monkeys these days? http://forums.airshows.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smilieclown.gif

[Stitchbitch]

We already look after their ATC and SE, we may as well get the cabs too:E

(Just kidding, some of the best blokes (and girls) I've worked with are AAC and REME, although some of thier 'methods' seem pretty 'Melchet' like. Bwaaaaah.:ok:)

I don't think loosing Super Lynx/Future Lynx is an option for them at this late stage, would JHC consider a reduction in order numbers and possibly closing down a 'Old school' Lynx Regt to maintain project funding as this might make more sense?

[The Helpful Stacker]

I like Teeny Weenie Airways. Although the Army idea of how to run an air-minded organisation can be baffling at times the majority of them seem nice enough chaps and generally they can be trusted not to forget little people who make their ability to let loose their Earthly bonds and soar with eagles possible.
Many RAF aircrew on the otherhand (outside of JHC) still in my ever-so-humble opinion seem to think their kites look after themselves and that the other ranks are there purely to throw salutes their way.

[humpndump]

Getting rid of the AAC would be shear folly. The 'Afghan Job' will be with us for 20+ years and right now we need an AAC with a Lynx thats up to the task. Blackhawk - cheaper, tried and tested, just buy it of the shelf. Stuff Wastelands:E The lads are threaders with flying the 'Vauxhall Nova'.

[RotaryWingB2]

Couldn't agree more, I asked this of a 'VIP' on a visit out in Afghan.

'Why the **** are we buying wanky ****ty FLYNX, and not just Blackhawks and fitting RTM322's?'

I wasn't quite so polite about it though.

He said (ad libbing a little here) 'We must stick with a British Manufacturer, to help secure British jobs, blah blah blah'

'Oh, how does that explain WAH1 then?'

'Cough splutter, next question..'

Wankers.:D

[Faithless]

Humpndump needs to posting to Lynx IPT:ok:

[Evalu8ter]

Stitchbitch,
Unfortunately the money is nowhere near JHC, they have no means to influence a Centre decision. The whole issue over the future of Flynx is not about the capability (or lack of) of the platform but about the savings to Defence as a whole if it were sacrificed (along with other major programmes). Bottom line, we have a yawning gap in Equipment funding over the next few years, the single Services each have sacred cows to protect (CVF, Typhoon T3, FRES) and therefore some projects have to go or a lot of projects will need "salami slicing" so the Politicos can say that no capabilities are being cut.

If Flynx goes there will not be a penny for Blackhaw/NH90 etc - expect it to be spun as part of FML (which conveniently takes a decision out after the next Election..).

[MightyGem]

Today's Daily Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1906393/UK-helicopter-industry-%27will-die-in-MoD-cuts%27.html

[WE Branch Fanatic]

'Why the **** are we buying wanky ****ty FLYNX, and not just Blackhawks and fitting RTM322's?'

Didn't Westland once build Blackhawk under licence?

[Squirrel 41]

WEBF -

It certainly had a licence to do so, and it may have built a demonstrator. However, I'm pretty sure that it was a 1980s air-show one off. Pity, if we have to keep Wastelands in business (why?) then it's probably the best option, especially with RTM322.

But what the hell do I know?

S41

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

if we have to keep Wastelands in business (why?)

..... because, otherwise, this Country will never again build a significant helicopter. It's not sensible to send trained and skilled blokes away to stack shelves/flip hambugers and then expect them back in 10 years time to build the next Type.

Is that a catastrophe? For a Third World nation, no it isn't. It also isn't catastrophic for G8 nation so long as it doesn't fall out with the advanced nations that still build mechanical palm trees.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Question is are we likely to 'fall out' with other countries that produce helicopters (often better quality and cheaper)?

Most helicopter manufacturers which we are likely court in the near and distant future are either based in mainland Europe or the US. One is a part of the world that we are tied to in far more than just purchasing military equipment and the other is a country with which we have had (and no doubt will for many years to come) have a 'special relationship' with.

Of course if we fall out with those two (very unlikely) then there is always the Russians. They will sell weapons to anyone.

The 2nd question is whether the risk of falling out with one of these other helicopter producing nations/states is great enough for us to need to continue to subsidise our own single (seemingly preferred choice no matter how crap the product) helicopter producer.

Yes its unfortunate that 800 people could loose their jobs but I didn't hear many people bemoaning the loss of jobs at many other military equipment suppliers, such as ammunition and small arms manufacturers, many of which closed with far greater job losses.

[requiem1973]

May I be as bold to ask why so many people on this forum slate Westlands aircraft . Having worked for 20 years on the aircraft build I find it offensive that so many comments are made about the quality of what our boys and girls produce . Are our products really that poorly thought of and would something off the shelf from the manufacturer really be that cheap once the MOD start adding their own wish list to it and chopping and changing things ?

[The Helpful Stacker]

I don't think the view is that they are poor products per-se, just poor for the price paid.

[Fortyodd2]

" I don't think the view is that they are poor products per-se, just poor for the price paid."

Helpful Stacker ~ Nail, Head, Hit!!

I loved flying the Lynx but, apart from being the best anti tank version of an anti submarine helicopter ever made, the fleet is old and tired, the design is old, it's expensive and, in case no one else has noticed, it just can't do what's being asked of it any more - for the same reasons the Wessex isn't being deployed to Afghanistan!!!!!

[Guzlin Adnams]

AB149 or Blackhawk............or will Brooooon rob the defence budget again and not fund anything....:confused:

[Archimedes]

If Sikorsky or AW open a factory to build the airframes in Dunfermline East (or in a marginal Labour constituency), then he may fund them. If not, guess which part of your guess will be accurate....

[HEDP]

I guess you could ask about the manufacturing errors that have caused previous Lynx fatalaties!

[ericferret]

I wouldn't think that the loss of a helicopter manufacturer is that important to this government. A few years back the last UK ship propeller manufacturer was allowed to close. So we can't build a ship of any type without the cooperation of one of our european allies. Although we could go back to paddle wheels!!!!!!!!!

[requiem1973]

I am a bit confused . Having attended some briefings I was lead to believe the Army Future Lynx would be used in an ISTAR role instead of a troop carrying or anti tank role . So how could an off the shelf blackhawk carry out this task ?

[Gnd]

You can add ISTAR equipment to any airframe - I would like it to be on a cost effective one that can do the job 24/7.

145
Blackhawk
Dofan
etc.....etc

Note; not the Lynx at the moment

AAC - click! :confused:

Requiem1973 - we have no faith in your company and the product is fun but no use nowerdays; AH has proved the regard wastelands hold us in!!!!! I am alive so you must make an expensive option safe - thanks for that at least.

[requiem1973]

Wouldnt the AW149 not also be built at Westlands , thats once it has been developed as it doesnt even exist yet,well only in he civilian AW139 variant . Thanks for the honest answers thou chaps , we on the shop floor dont ever get to hear feedback from the end user

[WillDAQ]

Something i've never understood...

Westlands has always had this status as the UK's generally preferred supplier of helicopters for the sake of keeping a UK manufacturer etc. etc. This has generally resulted in the impression that they don't pull their weight or deliver products that are as good as the competition.

But look at it another way, Westlands has been exposed to decades of the UK MoD's neurotic purchasing methods. Specifying products so tightly that they have to be heavily engineered to fit (Merlin, an ASW heli in a Type 23 hanger?) and then buying hardly any of them when they have managed to meet the spec.

And then future lynx, rumbling along for years with the MoD adding all the toys they want to the list (ISTAR, really?) and Westlands designing it to fit.. then suddenly 'Oh sorry guys, no cash'. It would have been better to tell them that in the first place so that they could have designed an aircraft with mass market appeal that, who knows, might even fit the MoD's requirements.

Which brings me to the AW149, I get the feeling this is very much a behind closed doors sort of design. No doubt at some point the MoD will need some new helicopters and it may be pitched but if you have a generic heli you can bolt bits too it's gonna do better.

[owe ver chute]

WillDAQ.

Why shouldn't the MoD specify what design features they would like in a product. I mean, what would be the point of buying a helicopter to fly to and from ships, if that helicopter couldn't fit inside the hanger?
Is it too much to ask that a battlefield helicopter has some built in protection for the aircrew that fly it on the battlefield?
Is it too much to ask, that if a helicopter is going to be sent in harms-way, then it has its vital systems protected by some sort of armour, and have built in redundancy where ever possible? I mean, the US Army demanded all these things when they ordered UH60 and AH64.

In my opinion Westland helicopters are a cottage industry, kept alive by successive governments, they have never had to compete on the world market, and haven’t. Consequently the Army have had to make do with a Navy helicopter, great design for small ships at sea level, no good for moving troops in the mountains of Bosnia in the summer, (I hear the same is true in Afghanistan). Development costs are reduced by the services sharing a common airframe. Think about it, the only reason the Royal Air Force is now flying Merlin, is because the Canadians cancelled their order, if the twenty airframes weren't sold on, then the development costs would have been lumped onto the Royal Navy, making the fleet so expensive. The answer was to sell the Canadian airframes to the Royal Air Force, who needed a Wessex replacement. It doesn't matter which service it is, you all make sacrifices in capability. I do accept the Merlin is doing a great job in Iraq and the lads and lasses flying it think it is a great airframe.

Will this be the end of the Army Air Corps? I doubt it. But then again, I don’t think that it will be the end of the world if the Army Air Corps did fold; the ground troops will still get what they want, when they want it, the infantry will get Close in Fire Support when they require it, and who knows, they might get more of it!

[Sloppy Link]

Nothing new here, Short Stirling performance was not as it could of been because the War Department/Air Ministry specified that the wing span must fit through a standard set of hangar doors. The Sea Lynx/Army Lynx precedent has been set before also, Wasp/Scout. Why, as a community of professional cynics, are any of us surprised? Lions, Donkeys and Dinosaurs.


SL

[WillDAQ]

Why shouldn't the MoD specify what design features they would like in a product. I mean, what would be the point of buying a helicopter to fly to and from ships, if that helicopter couldn't fit inside the hanger?

The process is simple:
1) MoD puts out a specification for x helicopters with y features costing £z.
2) AW design a helicopter that meets the spec and cost assuming that a certain number are to be made. If it's got to be cheap they pitch a simple helicopter with bolt on features, if the MoD want to splash some cash they get something more custom.
3) Helicopters built and delivered, everyone is happy.

What actually happens:
1) MoD puts out a specification for x helicopters with y features costing £z.
2) AW design a helicopter that meets the spec and cost assuming that a certain number are made. In Lynx's case a nice design update because the MoD have set z quite high.
3) MoD run out of cash/change the spec/change number bought
4) AW to adapt to these changes on the fly and costs sky rocket.
5) MoD decides its all too expensive, drops the project.
6) AW get the blame because step 2 wasn't a competitive tender.

Is it too much to ask that a battlefield helicopter has some built in protection for the aircrew that fly it on the battlefield? Is it too much to ask, that if a helicopter is going to be sent in harms-way, then it has its vital systems protected by some sort of armour, and have built in redundancy where ever possible? I mean, the US Army demanded all these things when they ordered UH60 and AH64.
It's not like the MoD are asking for these features and AW is saying no, MoD lay down the spec. If they don't ask for armour that's their own dumb fault.

If they did ask for armour then there are two possible reasons it's not there:

1) AW have messed up badly
2) MoD have messed up badly

Were it 1) I have no doubt there would be elements of the armed services/MoD who would be rubbing it in AW's face in it (so to speak). Instead it's been all quiet, so i'm guessing 2).

In my opinion Westland helicopters are a cottage industry, kept alive by successive governments, they have never had to compete on the world market, and haven’t. Consequently the Army have had to make do with a Navy helicopter, great design for small ships at sea level, no good for moving troops in the mountains of Bosnia in the summer, (I hear the same is true in Afghanistan). Development costs are reduced by the services sharing a common airframe. Think about it, the only reason the Royal Air Force is now flying Merlin, is because the Canadians cancelled their order, if the twenty airframes weren't sold on, then the development costs would have been lumped onto the Royal Navy, making the fleet so expensive. The answer was to sell the Canadian airframes to the Royal Air Force, who needed a Wessex replacement. It doesn't matter which service it is, you all make sacrifices in capability. I do accept the Merlin is doing a great job in Iraq and the lads and lasses flying it think it is a great airframe.

My opinion is that while historically the protectionist strategy has helped Westlands, now they're AgustaWestlands they don't need hand holding or deals for the boys, they need customers who play with a straight bat and don't have eyes for things they can't afford.

The merlin is an interesting example as in spite of being specified for quite a specific role it can do a bit of everything. It's probably because that specific weight point and the engines available forced the 3 engine configuration. That in turn has a very useful effect on the performance envelope both hot and high and in the OEI case. Plus of course having a little too much load/space capacity is never as bad as not having enough.

[Something witty]

The decision on Future Lynx has still not been announced. However if it were to be cancelled, with no replacement for current Lynx or Gazelle...


The question supposes the cabs are not replaced, thus suggesting the AAC is vulnerable to the empire building Crabs... I appreciate the point, yes I can see it weakening the AAC. Personaly (and I'm not AAC) I think the AAC, irrespective of how good/bad DAAvn is and how well it is run, should remain extant. Tri-service RW flying surely has it's drawbacks, however history has shown that a given service will always resource their core activity ahead of another's. Would the AAC have much interest in strategic tanking and airlift? No. (...er ok, so the RAF don't appear to either, my bad ;))

Just as worrying is the idea of not having a replacement! Capability gap anyone?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Capability gap? Now you are talking a language recently thrust upon the RAF by the Scots mafia in ernest.

[Bismark]

What is wrong with FLynx? The Navy love it and as far as I have seen reading through the posts the Army don't really know what they want....except that they want lots of them. As the Army are stuck with fighting today's war rather than worrying about the future perhaps they should lease Kiowas etc from the US whilst they make up their mind. Look on Google Earth at the Mojave desert, there are hundreds of them....but of course it would cost £xM to convert them for Brit use!

[colonel cluster]

Ah, Stacker, me ol' shipwreck, you are showing your age! The latest spin/jargon to come from the 'centre' is a 'capability holiday'. It amazes me how much the self licking lollypops big up themselves with such phrases. In my mind, the 'centre' is Jack, Percy or Crabbo, doing the business on our behalf on the front line, and anyone who thinks they are more important than them should have a short, sharp reminder dished out to them! Wa&%*rs!

Apologies for the rant, I do try so hard not to drift off thread!

[Modern Elmo]

... perhaps they should lease Kiowas etc from the US whilst they make up their mind. Look on Google Earth at the Mojave desert, there are hundreds of themperhaps they should lease Kiowas etc from the US whilst they make up their mind. ...

Lots of Kiowas available 'cuz the US Army is retiring 'em 'cuz they be gettin' obsolete ... Therefore mebbe appropriate for sale or lease to our British cousins, but how many soldiers do you plan to transport with H-58's?

http://www.c00lstuff.com/370/OH_58D_Kiowa_helicopter_hot_surveillance_tape/ (http://www.c00lstuff.com/370/OH_58D_Kiowa_helicopter_hot_surveillance_tape/)

[penny pincher]

I'm sure that everyone that is involved with Lynx realises that it has a significant capability gap that has come about through bad timing and investment, if I take a Lynx to an open day it seems to be more of an occurance that the playstation generation regard it as a novel relic with the layout of dials "like a Spitfire or somfing".
As to what the Army wants, the Directorate has to take it's share of the blame as one Brig after another has failed to provide foresight and direction at any level, even now the passage of information is similar to that of a company on the verge of Bankruptcy, i wonder what is was like at Rover just before the inevitable happened. If I was the current incumbent, a man i have a lot of time for by the way, i would be writing to my predecessers and say F*** you very much for the S*** fest you have left me to deal with!
IMHO bin Lynx, there is no requirement for it, give the funding to those that need it...SH/AH, why not accept that we are where we are.

[owe ver chute]

After all the effort that went into keeping Netheravon open. :ok:

Is there no gratitude? :rolleyes:

[stokie_crewman]

in an ideal world the AAC would stay, complete with FLynx but i can't see it. thing is, what would the RAF do with apache?

[The Helpful Stacker]

The RAF would probably do pretty much the same as what the AAC does with it, although there may be a few less parked up at Shawbury being cherry picked for spares as the RAF may actually be able to use some the the knowledge within the organisation from working with other types that are slightly more complex than a toaster to get a grip of the maintenance issues.;)

[HEDP]

Helpful,

Or should I say 'less than'!

Think you might find there ain't non at Shawbs anymore. Does this indicate the standard of RAF int gathering, hope not!

You might find that Time Sensitive Targetting would benefit from faster , more accurate int than that:rolleyes:

HEDP

[The Helpful Stacker]

"Think you may find...."? Call me old fashioned but assumptions have never been accurate int either!
At least I can excuse my lack of firm int on having last been at Shawbury over a year ago.
Anyway, regardless of the current location there are many of them with few hours on the clock but missing a few parts for a number of reasons and not all of them procurement related.

[mutleyfour]

The situation as a whole is a complete farce. A few years ago we had Future Lynx and SABR rolling along and both were chopped. Future Lynx was ressurected with the Army variant being Recce rather than Light Utility and now they face the chop. SABR seems to have vanished without trace along with any notional replacement for Puma. The Navy continue to fly the Sea King/Commando which must be nearing the end of its life be now.

And what have we to replace all of these assets and at a time where their use is probably at a level greater than when we were at our busiest in NI? Thats right, nothing.

I am not sure whats going to happen to the AAC but I think that if it is to become part of the RAF then the FAA will surely follow along at a pace or two behind and then we will all become one.

I know there will be some that will be horrified at my saying this but to be honest, if that meant we had more and better aircraft to operate I would welcome the change. As for Future MoD spending I cannot see this present Government applying any substance to its promises and hence we will continue spiralling into the abyss until we can no longer make do.

[Evalu8ter]

Mutley Four,
I respect and in many ways agree with your capability v cap badge debate but I'm less optimistic about a successful outcome. Why?

1. SABR was killed off the moment that Buff Hoon trumpeted the £3Bn on helicopters bit (ie, £1.5Bn less than previously promised) and then rolled the Merlin & AH CSPs into the pot. With the then £1.5Bn ish allocated to Flynx it killed off SABR as a viable project.

2. There is a notional replacement for the Puma, it's called the Puma HC.2 and will, finally, feature most of the stuff that the Puma boys have been crying out for since the 1980s (eg Makila engines). The SK4 community is getting a similar "replacement" as the capital funds to re-capitalise SH have been blown propping up sacred cows and two unpopular wars.

3. The "final solution" to Puma/SK4 is the re-christened "Future Medium Lift" project, which is a gilt edged opportunity for Abbey Wood Apparatchiks to fritter away millions in (another) meaningless Assessment phase before somebody realises that the "bow wave" of today is going to be a hell of a lot worse in 2014-17 (when FML is due to start production for an IOC of 2017) and cancel it. When you consider the fitting out of 2 carriers, full-rate production of JSF/A400 etc and FRES is around the same time you see the reason for my pessimism. My belief is that RW will suffer, again, as the Single Services strive to maintain their "core" equipment programmes. They all hope that these inconvenient RW-centric wars will be over by then so they can focus on buying the flash toys they really want.

Despite being a crab, the answer is not to give the RAF all RW platforms. I don't trust the Senior hands not to f**k-over rotary (esp AH) to give the FW boys what they want. I think that RW needs to have a its own TLB with no cap-badge/uniform issues. Nirvana I know, but if we don't, to paraphrase Pete Townsend, we'll just get fooled again...

[Jackonicko]

Why not an Omani style Super Lynx 300 for the RN, and a mix of Super Lynx 300 and AW149 for the AAC (BRH/BLUH)? OK Super Lynx is not as capable as a Future Lynx but is still a very respectable piece of kit, already developed and available off the shelf - presumably at a much lower price, and fulfilling the political needs of keeping Westland in business.

And just buy a few dozen fully folding Merlins to replace Puma/Sea King, with a handful of NHI NH90s if you absolutely have to have a smaller helicopter as well. (Or more AW149s?)

You buy proven kit, off the shelf, and are also buying British.

[penny pincher]

"Why not an Omani style Super Lynx 300 for the RN, and a mix of Super Lynx 300 and AW149 for the AAC (BRH/BLUH)? OK Super Lynx is not as capable as a Future Lynx but is still a very respectable piece of kit, already developed and available off the shelf - presumably at a much lower price, and fulfilling the political needs of keeping Westland in business"

Problem is Jacko, it's still Lynx, and I for one Struggle to justify the platform. I make this statement genuinely, I don't see the direction or the overall end game for an airframe that can't justifiably sell itself to the field army. It can't lift the smallest combat unit at any altitude/temp and, as the shopping list reduces the combat effectivness in "real terms", then ISTAR falls short of that provided by AH, which is in rotary terms, world class, and getting better. AH + SH > Lynx (no Money!). you can all do the math better than I........:ugh:

PP

[parabellum]

I think before anything significant happens on the new equipment front you have to get rid of the present government who have never made any commitment to the armed forces and have, frequently, carried out not so subtle campaigns against re-equipment of the armed forces. There are many in the Labour party who would happily see the armed forces disappear altogether and to achieve this they will delay, hinder or block anything that looks like an improvement.

[ZH844]

In three days time AW start to build the first FLynx - which is the aircraft the MoD have spec'd and order BTW.

The MoD have spent so much money during the different phases to cover up their indecision and lack of bo***cks that to cancel the order now would be a huge insult not only to the british public who'sm money they have wasted but also to the people we are expecting to fight and die for our country.

Those from the AAC say that they don't want it, well what the hell do you want? Do you really think that buying from EC or Sikorsky will be any cheaper?

We have been discussing the URD for almost 10 years and you guys still haven't got what you want or so you say! If you cannot influence decision in 10 years then accept that you have to take what you get..

I am absolutley sick and tired of reading threads where people constantly slag off those who dare to take a risk or make a decision - FLynx was never going to keep everyone happy but what is done is doen so buy into it!

I suspect that FLynx will go, but what then? Still a gap in the AAC and RN's capability, 100s of millions wasted and we are still no better off!:ugh:

[owe ver chute]

A little bit of thread creep here.
Simple questions that need to be answered.
Why have MoD got a helicopter that they need to find a role for?
Why don't the MoD state the requirement, and invite industry to submit thier products.

I recall for the AH program, 9 keys user requirements were stipulated, only one aircraft fulfilled all 9, Apache. There were four or five aircraft in the race, from the Mangusta to the Cobra, but Apache won the competition.

Now if Lynx has fulfilled all of the key user requirements, then it the aircraft for the job, but it seems the MoD don't know what the job is.

[HEDP]

The FLynx requirement became laughable when the endorsed requirement was to carry a fully equipped standard infantry section.

When pointed out to those presenting to a Wattisham Lynx audience that this would not be possible with the current contender the requirement appeared to be re-written on the spot with the quote "well thats okay, it can do that, just send two aircraft"!

I think many Lynx pilots enjoy flying the beast but those whom have been around for a few years know many a widow who the machine hath made.

Concern was expressed about the low speed handling qualities when the AUM was originally increased with inferences made in accident reports that this was a factor in some accidents. Sufficient concern existed that guidance be given to pilots regarding the adverse handling effects.

It is my understanding that a further increase in AUM has been made and just wonder whether this has cured the adverse handling effects or indeed exascerbated them?

Has the design incorporated any meaningful surviveability enhancements or would we get a civilian design adapted for the battlefield? I know which i would prefer.

[penny pincher]

Hug

There's your hug my friend, with a word of caution if I may, you may represent industries' views, and that this is a public forum, it is your prerogative, but I hope you do not, like and lump it I will not, especially when i go to fight in an airframe that could be better (and I expect better), and as a professional aviator/soldier expect those in industry to support me, not tell me shut up and crack on, it may make you sick and tired, i am sorry for that, but there are a good many channels that have been used to express this opinion, PPrune is but one. AND DON'T try to make industry out to be blameless mate we know how many of the old boys work there.....:=

[NURSE]

Maybe this would have been all sorted if the Civil service had not been bullied into accepting 5 year planning of the politicians had was thinking on a longer time scale.
AAC should remain taking in helecoptor recce/attack/laison and tactical lift. Its capabilities should be expanded to be able to lift most light role brigade kit like light gun. Heavier stuff could still be the realm of RAF.
To that end some more capable aircraft should be employed like AW139 or 149. Wasn't 149 beeing proposed as Puma replacement? and is Puma HC2 happening as last i heard from mates who work in helecopter buissness was it had been dropped as there was no funds available?
As to "Joint" helecopter command it should be that but with an Army/Marine lead ethos and an airforce lead air policy.
I agree that the Army needs to look at devloping pilots careers and not see tours with the AAC as a "Career Break" and maybe the NCO aircrew role could be opened up to the other services as well on the same terms that Army NCO's can apply.
I can see "increasing the AAC capabilities" will be a blue touch paper issue however when on ops has having extra capicity/capability been a bad thing?

[Modern Elmo]

Those from the AAC say that they don't want it, well what the hell do you want? Do you really think that buying from EC or Sikorsky will be any cheaper?

Sikorsky would be a lot cheaper at current dollar/pound exchange rates.

( The money exchange rate issue is bigger than just Lynx versus H-60. If present trends continue, American aerospace venders will be able to drastically underprice anything built where they pay the lads or arbeiters in pounds or Euros. In the bigger picture, Westlands can't survive without more protectionism. No, I'm not delighted because the dollar has gotten so weak. A weak dollar has cons as well as pros.)

The FLynx requirement became laughable when the endorsed requirement was to carry a fully equipped standard infantry section.

When pointed out to those presenting to a Wattisham Lynx audience that this would not be possible with the current contender the requirement appeared to be re-written on the spot with the quote "well thats okay, it can do that, just send two aircraft"!

That’s it. The British Army – assuming there will be a significant one in future – needs a properly sized rotary winged assault transport, not just any old hand-me-down whose size is set by some whim of industrial history. The H-60 Blackhawk is intended to fit an eleven man US Army squad. Yes, it’s getting stressed to do that because combat-loaded light infantrymen often weigh 300 pounds or more. But how many heavily burdened troops could this Super Lynx accommodate?

I do see the Royal Navy having a legitimate objection to the Blackhawk/Seahawk. Even with main rotor and tail boom folded, a Seahawk probably has a bigger parking footprint than a Lynx.

By the way, didn’t Westlands build a RR-engined Blackhawk demonstrator a good many years ago? Surely someone here knows more about that.

[NURSE]

Yes Westlands did produce 1 WS-70L which i think was sold to one of the Gulf states. I think there were touting to replace the wessex's of 72 sqn with them in the 90's. She had the miliary registration ZG468 I don't think it was fitted with RTM's however a Blackhawk was one of the trials platforms for the RTM

[NURSE]

Lynx was never the greatest lift helecopter and the AAC was well aware of this from Northern Ireland experience on. I wonder did those writing the specification really think it through or was the specification written to suit the product?
For the Navy lynx is an excellent platform compact and having a good spectrum of roles. However for the Army its to big for recce/laison and to small for transport.

[chopper2004]

I know personally one of the original engineers on the Lynx project back in the early 70s and one of the main problems was the Gem engines. Now with LHT engines, should be ok.

Recalling a visit to McAlpines / Eurocopter UK back in 03, was given a mini poster depicted Future British Military Helicopters,where they had artists impression of EC-635/EC-145/AS-355N/EC-155/AS365-N3 in FAA/AAC/RAF colours as well as the existing COMR FOST AS-365N, DHFS AS-350, the old 32 Sqn AS-355.

Its a wild shot but maybe the EC-135/635 could do as a reccie/possibly light attack role and something like in the class of the AW-149 or S-70 could do the LBH role?

[[email protected]]

Why does the AAC need an SH capability? Now they have AH, let them keep that specialised role and leave SH to the RAF/RN.

There is no need for a light obs/recce helicopter - it would never have as good capability as the AH -D model and UAVs fill the role much cheaper than a Kiowa or similar variant.

Maybe the 3-5 Bn that the MoD will have to pay for SAR H would be better spent sorting out medium lift helis for SH and SAR.

Lynx should be buried for ever - it is not the engines that are no good, it is simply a factor of the cabin being too small for the job.

[tonker]

Blackhawk, NH90 and Chinook byeeeeeeeee

ps plus a few Ospeys

pps plus a few of those cool little fellas Magnum PI flew(now the scouts gone)

[Faithless]

Doomed...I tell ya ..we're all doomed....AAAArrrrggggghhhhh
:confused: :\ :eek: :uhoh: :uhoh: :mad: :ooh: :{ :oh: :yuk: :sad: := :} :* :bored:

[NURSE]

The AAC should have SH capability not the RAF who should stick to fixed wing. SH needs to be more integrated with AH and the Land operation therefore it should be an army function.

[Talk Split]

Utter rubish...

If that were the case then we would give GR7's to the Army also.

At the end of the day SH pilots (of which I am one) are well paid, well trained taxi drivers who get shot at every now and then.

Yes we need to have an understanding of the ground picture, and the 'commanders intent', but leave the Find/Fix/Strike function of AH to the Army, and the humping/dumping to SH and CHF. We have many years of experience and both do it bloody well...

[Occasional Aviator]

I agree. NURSE's comment seems to be based on the common misunderstanding of the difference between the Army and the LAND component - and I suspect a fair bit of anti-RAF bias. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter which service provides the capability as long as it is provided - and at the moment the RAF and RN are providing it admirably.

What we have to ask about FLynx is what capability it will bring - for the Land component, we can't justfy buying it for ISTAR alone, it won't make much of a dent in the tactical lift requirement and we certainly shouldn't buy it just to keep a particular arm going. Actually it might be quite good for the AAC to become an 'all teeth' FIND/FIX/STRIKE type of force.

[lynx-effect]

Too much ISTAR and not enough other tasks. How many aircraft do ya need for ISTAR. People still need to get about. An ISTAR Lynx would be brilliant in Iraq and Afghanistan, oh no it wouldn't.

It is the only aircraft serving in 2 theatres simultaneously so don't tell me we don't need it.

Oh and by the way, I think a merger into the RAF would be good as I'm fed up with getting continually screwed over.

Terms and conditions apply.

[wg13_dummy]

And we wonder why the whole FLynx/SH/Helicopters in general is such a cockup?

This thread is a microcosm of what happens in reality when the different colours fight for their own corner with scant regard for the bigger picture. :rolleyes:

All as guilty as each other. Obviously the Army less so. :E

[Faithless]

Is Lynx due for replacement ? :ouch:

[NURSE]

Agree totally WG13. I always am amazed when the subject of giving the AAC some decent lift capability how defensive the crabs get. What is the problem with Teeny weeny airways being able to supplement the lift capability of the RAF/RN SH fleet? Lynx can just about manage a fire team but really should be able to lift a section complete with kit.
On ops would it not make sense if an AAC airframe could be used to lift an 8 man patrol into the field rather than use a Chinook that could be better employed moving a platoon or heavy stores?
the helecopter that replaces Lynx should have the capability to lift most of the light weapons up to and including the Light Gun. Not as a routine task but as a capability in reserve. I am well aware how well chinook does it with the whole lot going as a package however as everyone keeps saying chinooks are valuable assets and their aren't enough to go round.
Yes the funding of the armed forces is tight but robbing assets of peter to give paul a bigger budget is unfortunatley the way this govt is running the defence budget for as long as the service chiefs are fighting petty battles over kit they won't have the energy to raise the issues that need sorting.

[Stitchbitch]

Thread creep maybe, but...Cabin room in the Lynx seems to be a big problem, if you've ever flown in the back of the mighty widdow maker, you'd know what I was on about. For those that haven't, imagine squeezing into the rotary winged equivalent of the trusty 'Robbin Reliant'. Future Lynx looks to be about the same size as the original (crazy thought but are Westlands actually going to build new frames or are these going to be remanufactures ala 'Nimrod MR.4' ?) How the hell are you're going to get 8 fully equipped squaddies in the back? :ugh:

Why not give the AAC 230 Sqns' Pumas? :E

[penny pincher]

In regards to the room question, sadly the beloved ISTAR requirement reduced that to 4 people in the back. Yes thats right, there is NO real lift capacity, forgetting Section level movement, remembering that 12 is more the requirement these days, they didn't even push for Stretcher capacity, LET ALONE MORE THAN ONE. Well done all involved.

PS. And before any policy making industry types start bitching about looking to the future, then maybe you would like to read a few books on past conflicts, we ignore history at our peril. Obvious as it may be......:rolleyes:

We have moved AH to Wattisham, a sound move IMHO. Maybe the next step would be to centralise ALL lift, like the Brize Norton idea.

[[email protected]]

Nurse - the only reason for givving the AAC any medium lift capability would be so you could support your own front line ie AH logistically instead of relying on SH to do it. Your viewpoint is typical of one who has no idea what SH do or how well trained they are for it - the Lynx Sqns have been searching for a role since the demise of TOW but it isn't a battlefield helicopter.
The training burden for bringing the Lynx force up to SH standards on any medium lift platform would be immense and the AAC are struggling to keep the AH fully manned and supported - how on earth do you think you would manage it?

[Talk Split]

Agreed, although I think the inference that Lynx crews are not up to scratch is a bit harsh. If however you meant that the crews are not up to scratch as SH crews well of course they aren't because thay don't have the a/c.

Perhaps as importantly, the AAC doesn't have the infrastructure to support a larger fleet. Having a grass-only airfield is living in a dreamworld that belongs to the 1940's, and the Army clearly are not prepared to keep Wattisham in a fully serviceable condition, despite it's obvious potential is a logistics APOD in support of AH ops...

Not to mention the lack of Ops support...

[wg13_dummy]

And the bitch fight continues. :D

The training burden for bringing the Lynx force up to SH standards on any medium lift platform would be immense

You may wish to aim that towards the Puma force before you fire from the hip towards the pongos mate.

[Occasional Aviator]

wg13 has it right as far as I'm concerned. For me, it really doesn't matter who has which aircraft types and what they can lift - and anyone who starts saying "The AAC should have..." or "The AAC couldn't cope with..." is standing in the way of sorting out what the real requirement for rotary wing lift is for defence.

As for standards of the Lynx force v the Puma force, I have first-hand experience of both and all I will say is they are all dedicated, good people struggling to cope with ridiculous workloads and knackered fleets. I will not throw stones in any direction.

[wg13_dummy]

I too am not deriding the Puma chaps as I am fully aware of the pressures they are under but crab@SAAvns perception of the Lynx is based on what he remembers from years gone by and not what they are currently up to. He appears to be suggesting that they have no concept of SH ops and have just been ferrying the odd General around since TOW came off.

I appreciate he has considerable experience working with the AAC but that was quite a while ago. It appeared to be a classic divisive comment aimed at belittling the AAC whenever the suggestion of giving SH to the AAC comes along. Classic JHC squabbling.

What does SH stand for? It’s not ‘battlefield helicopter’ is it?

[Floater AAC]

People seem to forget that the aircraft would suit the Navy well. This was mentioned last year in a different thread. That the Army had little say in what the aircraft could do because the update was run by the Navy, for the Navy, and the poor cousins in the Army got an aircraft that they would have to make do with. SCMR camera above nose with radar below, would be great. For the Army it would be as much use as a snooze button on a smoke alarm when giving top cover over a built up area.
The whole project was damned from the start because it was biased and the Army had already identified years ago that there wasn't enough space in the back. I love flying this aircraft but we are flogging a dead horse. Good riddance to future Lynx and the tax payers should be celebrating.

[Gnd]

So, Talk split, where exactly is the grass field only that the AAC has?

Been to all of them and they all seem to have runways or HALS. Are you refering to the RFC/TA field? Not a mainstream base as far as I know?:confused:

[+SHRA]

Thank you all for your input, when I first asked this question I hoped that I would generate some interesting debate. For those of you who have seen past the normal inter-service banter and dick swinging and had a crack at the question I thank you.

Many people seem to have got stuck debating the merit of FLynx compared to other types and in different roles. I personally have been told many fantastic things about FLynx however the question I find normally stifles the flow is "What is it for?" This is normally followed by lots of tosh about the 'Find function' and then a long silence.

Other people have gone down the road of debating who is best suited to operate larger or smaller types largely based, it would seem to me, on some stereotypical outlooks, Crab and Nurse representing either end. In these arguments it always seems that somebody else’s gain should be seen as your own loss and therefore is to be fought against as a matter of principal.

I wonder if to move the discussion on if people might like to speculate how we could change the whole way we approach rotary business.

So come on people throw off your petty uni service attitudes think purple, think best practice, think big and think not reinventing the wheel!!!

[wg13_dummy]

I wonder if to move the discussion on if people might like to speculate how we could change the whole way we approach rotary business.

Make the 'C' in JHC stand for Command instead of Circus which it currently is. :rolleyes:

Its a start.

[penny pincher]

How about following the suggestion that we go joint, go for it with both hands around the throat, lump all the rotary into one big airbase(or bases), it works to some degree at Shawbury, actually, come to think of it, it weren't that bad at Aldergrove either, or the COB.
As for FLYNX, nobody, but nobody seems to have an answer to where it is headed (if at all!), considering the importance of rotary in the two theatres, it really is a poor show from the upper echelons of MOD.
We are where we are.....sadly. Chinook is kicking arse, as is AH, where Flynx sits as ISTAR God only knows. It would mean we could beam the contact to every HQ that was interested, but not pick up the casualties, provide fire support, lift supplies etc etc....:(

[AHQHI656SQN]

+SHRA, a very eloquent post. I like the idea of thinking purple, however it will always been seen through green or (light or dark) blue tinted glasses. It is human nature.
To be fair, if the tax payer is to get value for money, then the axe must first fall on all the desk’s which are duplicating effort over the three services and JHC, be it RN, AAC or RAF. If there is to be a natural heir for the rotary aviation I don’t think there is the stomach to fight for the formation of a new Helicopter Force, the vision and fortitude that Lord Hugh Montague Trenchard had in 1918 simply isn’t there today and neither are the numbers. The new Commander at JHC is a good man (I’m not saying that old one wasn’t), lets see how the dust settles once the new brush has swept through!

[Father Jack Hackett]

It's all pretty simple - Lynx is too small. In this Brave New(ish) World of JHC I think it has been well proven that it is a good thing to have blue and brown flying together on the front line (and I've flown with both mobs). I do rile against anyone who wishes to suggest either is in some way inadequate. What is inadequate is the equipment provided. Lynx and Puma are both heading for stage left and nothing is in the pipeline to replace them. We need a helicopter that can give decent lift for SH and double up in the ISTAR role and any other battlefield support roles envisaged for the future. We don't need the one-trick-pony that FLynx was going to be. By all means procure something like NH90 or Blackhawk and get Westlands to assemble it but stop flogging a dead horse.

[Si Clik]

Isn't the current mantra all about about capability and effects.

If we want to provide a battlefield FIND effect then we should procure a system that can do it - FW, rotary or UAV. That is all that should matter.

If we want to be able to carry a section of troops then that does not fit in the FIND category. That would be LIFT, but scale would need to be defined.

If we want a battlefield taxi (which I suspect is the true BLUH requirement) then there is no clear effect based proword. We know we need it but how do we descibe it. Perhaps that is the real crux here.

From an RN persective the use of FLYNX in the FIND and STRIKE roles is accepted although if we are looking at effects what, given current technology, is the requirement - again FLYNX, UAV or other platform?

The issue here is probably political and industrial. Do AWHL really rely upon the FLYNX programme or is Agusta desire for an additional AW139 line more pressing? How important are Yeovil based AWHL jobs ? What is AWHL long term strategy on future platforms? Does DIS provide an answer or ask more questions?

Whilst EP affordability drives the options there are many more issues outside of the normal SH/AAC banter than has been prevalent here. We should be addressing the capability need not the parochial service issues or airframe banter!

God, I've clearly been on staff course too long!!!!

Si

[Occasional Aviator]

I agree. What many people don't appreciate is that defining a wooly requirement in one part of the battlefield mobility capability area impinges on what requirements you can write elsewhere - so, in old money, SABR was always going to struggle to justify the 'meduim' aircraft we all knew we needed when BLUH is pursuing the fiction that a lynx-type aircraft could achieve a section lift. BLUH provides section lift, therefore all we need are platoon lifts and above for 3 and 16 bdes.... although actually not.

What is needed is for someone independent (yes, maybe even a firm of consultants) to take a hard look at what battlefield lift capabilities the UK needs in the round, and then procure a suitable force mix with the money combined out of all the different pots. Who ends up flying them is pretty irrelevant - our rules, standards of training and SOPs are all pretty much the same now, the AAC/REME's engineering organisation is coming into line with the RAF/RN, and aircraft type is a much, much more significant cost driver than the rank of the pilot, so any argument about which service could do it cheaper/better is a bit thin nowadays.

[AHQHI656SQN]

B-Battlefield, the place at which a battle is fought.:(
L-Light, weighing little; easy to lift or carry.:ok:
U-Utility, usefulness; practicality, something that is useful.:=
H-Helicopter, an aircraft that is lifted and propelled by rotary blades above its body.:ok:

Does Lynx or Flynx fit the bill?

[Mister-T]

Maybe I am missing the point here but BLUH was deemed as not a necessity for the Army and so it was scrapped back in 2003 or so and replaced with BRH which assumes the Find role. It has therefore been designed with that role in mind and not the LUH role.

Whether or not you feel that its usefullness is wrong given the use of UAV and the incredibly good Find systems fitted to AH require its introduction is another argument.

As for the end of the AAC, I dont mind what I would be asked to fly and whom for as long as it doesnt involve bobbing up n down on an old tin can for 6 months at a time.

[Occasional Aviator]

Fair do's

I did say "in old money" as my example was merely to illustrate the point that carving up the requirement by service, even if this had a veil of 'capability', can screw things up for you. BLUH and SABR are of course long since redefined and renamed.