How Can I Convince My Family That Helicopter Flying is No More Dangerous Than FW?

[Garfs]

My family (who will be helping a lot with funding in one way or another) are keen for me to go fixed wing route, and try my very best to get a job with the Airlines eventually.

I however, have no desire to go fixed wing. I've heard all the pros and cons of both many times, and still feel rotary is the one for me. In fact, I find fixed wing boring after going up with mates etc etc.

I've tried to google some facts and the first thing I saw was this

rotorcraft had an accident rate of 9.47 per 100,000 aircraft hours flown, vs. 8.38 for fixed wing aircraft, and a fatal accident rate of 2.14 vs. 1.70 for fixed wing planes

So not a good start lol. Can anyone think of any way I can convince them? I've tried explaining all I can, but everytime they see a heli crash on the news or anywhere they automatically think the worst.

Need to convince them firstly for help with finding/loans, being guarantoor etc, and also would be good to have them on my side of course

ETA: At the end of the day, they may well be more RW accidents than FW, but I need them to understand that its not as dangerous as they think and its not a deathtrap flying RW, and am just getting nowhere

Cheers
Garfs

[Shawn Coyle]

There are more helicopter accidents statistically because most helicopters operate in areas without a supporting infrastructure, where there are not as many written rules and procedures to cover the operation, and by pilots who are operating on their own without direct supervision or the benefit of a copilot. The variety of tasks they are capable of and called on to perform are larger in number than the fixed wing world, and they operate closer to the margin of design than fixed wing aircraft. Flights are shorter in duration, and concentration more intense for longer periods.
If you look at accident rate per takeoff and landing, historically the most dangerous part of any flight, helicopters are significantly safer than nearly any fixed wing operation.
The US Navy has a higher accident rate than the US Air Force, but has good reasons for it. Same with helicopters in comparison to fixed wing.

[topendtorque]

Follow your heart
Demonstrate your conviction
They will support your decision
and, they will still love you.

Meantime, I operate in a fairly rough environment, and my stats are way better than your numbers. Most good muster operators are running at better than less than one reasonably serious accident every 13,000 hours.

I know one dude who has in excess of 20K hours, all mustering, all in R22's, in fact he is not even endorsed on anything else except an R44. As far as I am aware he is still to scratch a machine and has only had a couple of real emergencies.

besides F/W's cannot fly backwards. get into it.
tet

[KNIEVEL77]

Garfs,

I started a thread re Helicopter accidents and why they happen, do a search and check out the findings............most seemed to be down to pilot error of some sort so providing you are a competent pilot.

If you are in the UK, go to one of the organised safety evenings, there you will get the EXACT figures relating to accidents.

Good luck.

[alouette3]

Garfs:

It will be tough convincing them. Especially since Hollywood also gives helicopters a bad name. Just watched "Broken Arrow" a few weeks ago on the tube. Every helicopter that shows up crashes five minutes into the scene!!:eek: Does not inspire confidence in the machine for a lay person.
Good Luck in your endeavours .
Alt3.

[parabellum]

Every thing that Shawn Coyle said plus pick a period of excellent weather with good viz. and book them a site seeing trip with a reliable operator.

[Garfs]

Thanks for all the replies :)

KNIEVEL77 I shall have a look for the thread right after this. Unfortunately, I am not in the UK anymore so wont be able to attend anything of the sort over there.

I left the UK and my job as a police officer there as I realised it wasnt the career for me, and have just thought, sod it, if I dont go for my CPH now I will never do it (after toying with the idea for the past 3-4 years).

Cheers
Garfs

[photex]

You may want to compare stats on transport by car, bus, bicycle, motorbike et al. They make intersting comparisons. Even walking somewhere is more 'dangerous' than flying.

If they (your family) are willing, I suggest a trial flight for them, and if possible get the instructor to demo an 'engine failure'. You'd be suprised the number of people that don't know about autorotation and think helos just drop out of the sky when the engine stops!

[SASless]

Helicopter flying can kill you....being in a job you do not care for will do the same thing but takes longer.

If you really want to take up flying...fixed wing or helicopter, what your family thinks (assuming you are single without children) doesn't matter. If you have a family (wife and children)....your first obligation is to be the best provider for them you can be. The road to a paying job flying helicopters is a long expensive way.

Weigh your obligations against your dream....and make your decision.

[VeeAny]

SASless

Thats another one of those posts that should go down in history, wish I'd written it myself.

:D

GS

[Garfs]

Helicopter flying can kill you....being in a job you do not care for will do the same thing but takes longer.

If you really want to take up flying...fixed wing or helicopter, what your family thinks (assuming you are single without children) doesn't matter. If you have a family (wife and children)....your first obligation is to be the best provider for them you can be. The road to a paying job flying helicopters is a long expensive way.

Weigh your obligations against your dream....and make your decision.

Well the reason it matters is largely due to funding, partly in form of a loan, as well as being guarantor for my loan should I go ahead.

I dont have a wife or children yet, but about being a provider, if all goes to plan I have been told by the family that at the moment I am very fortunate as I stand to inherit the family business, which will be able to provide me and my future family with more than enough assuming nothing goes terribly wrong(another reason why I am not attracted by the possible financial rewards of a FW pilot)

At the moment family say they will fund an Integrated FW course, but not a CPL(H)

[remote hook]

How old are you?


If this is what you want to do, go do it. On this topic alone I bet there's about 100,000hrs worth of experience, we're all still here.

Either get the funding independently, or start standing up to your bloody parents. Did they tell you who to date, or how many beers to drink at the pub?

If you're trying to justify one career over the other by statistics you're finished. Statistically I should be dead many times over in cars, motorbikes, helicopters, airplanes, pubs, boats, Dorm Rooms... and just about everywhere else I've been...

Sorry to sound a bit harsh, but good god man, if you DO start flying helicopters for a living, it takes initiative, dedication and solid DECISION MAKING skills... And that's just to get your first job. When you're out in the bush(should you go that route) your on your own...

If this is your passion, make it happen. Mom and Dad are just that, they don't factor into this decision.

RH

[helimutt]

The stats at work say flying helicopters in the offshore role is 18 times safer than riding a motorbike. !!:ok:

[FH1100 Pilot]

Garfs, to answer your question: You can't. People assess risk differently. And usually it is on an emotional scale. Sure, we know that driving can be dangerous, but we still do it because we've determined that it's one of life's "acceptable" risks. To non-aviators, flying helicopters seems like one of life's "unacceptable" risks. Hence, their reluctance to fund your CPL-H but their willingness to fund your F/W training.

And let's face facts, flying helicopters *is* dangerous...if you equate danger with high-risk (as some do) because flying helicopters is certainly highly risky. We pilots minimize the danger and the risks, both to ourselves and to others. We try to convince ourselves that what we do isn't *really* all that risky/dangerous...no, not really. But deep down inside we know that it is. We see it all the time - highly experienced pilots who bite the dust due to one simple lapse of judgment. Too much of what we do depends on us doing our job...not just "well" but perfectly. And that's a lot on our shoulders, to be honest, don't you think? How many other professions can you think of in which the participants need to do their job perfectly - no room for error - or they die?

You'll probably never convince your family that helicopter flying is as "safe" as fixed-wing flying. Heh- it's amazing that they now consider fixed-wing flying safe. For compared to the airlines, general aviation flying surely is not. Best of luck to you, though. You'll probably have to go it alone if you want to pursue helicopters. Me, I'd let them fund my f/w stuff, get going in that direction and transfer to helicopters later.

[helimutt]

or should I do a CPL(A) and convert to fixed wing? Not a good idea with not many jobs around at the minute!

[Kerosine]

Can anyone think of any way I can convince them? I've tried explaining all I can, but everytime they see a heli crash on the news or anywhere they automatically think the worst.

Sounds like your family are being overdramatic... You should make a decision based on what you want to do and stick to it. There is room to discuss that, yes, everyone reacts on a different emotional scale etc, however they should make the effort not to offload that onto you. They should support you, not discourage it because of some 'perception' that it's the route to an early death.

[nigelh]

My family thought it was VERY dangerous flying helicopters ..........so they packed me off to Texas to get my CPL (H) :eek:

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi Garf

Have you read GASIL (Safety, incident & accident mag from the UK CAA) on a yearly basis they print accident stats, its available on line.

[nigelh]

...but at least i didnt have to learn on a Robbo :eek: oops :oh:

[Devil 49]

First, you can't really take numbers like those in your first post as being more than a very, very general set, perhaps analogous to average life expectancy in a state. There's huge variations by sector. Prime example, the airline industry's safety stats are pretty dern good, but they're still part of the fixed wing universe's "8.38 per 100,000 hours flown" that you quote. "If you play in the street, you should expect to be hit by the bus"- the airlines don't play in the street, but some fixed-wingers do. Even though flying an aluminum tube for thousands of hours may be a lot of exposure to that fixed wing accident rate, it's not all that dangerous (or exciting) no matter how demanding it may be.

If 'the scheds' do well at safety numbers, it's because of three things: Well trained, current pilots operating in a system adapted to the job; Suitable equipment for the job being done; Risk adverse management. That's the long way of saying that in the end somewhere between 75% and 90% of all accidents are pilot error, so if you eliminate the opportunity for an error in the pointy end, your numbers have to improve. Even in the realm of helicopters, that works. I worked at PHI from '84 to '97. During one of those years, PHI's accident rate, per departure, approximated the scheds (or so I recall).
That was a HUGE change. They did this by analyzing their accident history and then making changes in training, operations, and safety culture. While the management that made that happen was in place, a line puke, er- pilot; mechanic; dispatcher; anybody at all, had a formal way to take exception to a proposed operation knowing that whatever the outcome, they'd receive an impartial hearing. And, their issue, if supported, would be THE BOOK, immediately. The take-home is this- no matter how "hazardous" your phase of operation may be, pilot error is still going to be the biggie. No matter what: fixed or rotary wing; sched or on-demand; day or night; IFR or VFR, I, thge pilot in command, decide how hazardous what I do will be.
Rotary wing has the potential to be as safe, or SAFER, than fixed wing. Other than catastrophic structural failures and inherently more critical operations such as those Mr Coyle alluded to, I'd much rather have an emergency in a helicopter than an airplane- if all else fails I'm going to crash moving much more slowly in a helo, and I'll need a much smaller area of favorable terrain to make that a survivable event. It's a fact that some parts of the helo world will never be as safe as 'the scheds', but they can do a lot better by minimizing pilot error.

[rtrnewboy]

Garfs I would not be too worried about them but rather worried that they are worried about you. Sometimes your loved ones know more about your misgivings in life than yourself - so if you feel up for it and you have great co-ord, vision, ability to concentrate and above all a sense of humour - Helo is for you. As for safety agree with other posters that once you are trained and you have decent equipment in a normal operating environment you will have a better chance of saving yourself in a RW aircraft than a FW in the event of most failures besides the tail boom snapping off and the MR blades detaching. There are a few other quite serious issues you could face up to but most have exact equivalents in the FW mode. In fact the only member of my family I would let a FW instructor take up in the beat up c150 at my school would be my mother in law - especially if she was paying.

[JTobias]

Hiya

Flying heli's can be dangerous, but so can crossing the road. Personally I would rather have an engine failure in a heli than in a FW. (I fly both at PPL level so my my comments need to be considered with my experience in mind).

I accept there are many other types of incident, but people that don't fly heli's dont usually understand them. I guess if your time is up, it's up but if I thought I was going to pop my cloggs every time i raised the collective I might as well become a recluse and stay at home wrapped in cotton wool.

Maybe you should tell your folks that the reason they think that heli's are dangerous is because incidents are so rare statistically, when there is an incident the press report it and it brings it home to roost.

Good luck and don't give up.:ok:

[Ken Wells]

...but at least i didnt have to learn on a Robbo oops


Tosh! nothing wrong with a Robo, My father in Law is 89 hated flying in fixed-wing always felt claustaphobic in the back of a Cherrytree, was cold in the Nangchang CJ6 and found the Beach 18 he cadged a lift back to Waltham in from Biggin one year noisy.

But in a R44 he is happy as larry, loads of space, great visbaility warm and cosy as toast.

Hired one in Majorca from Sloane toured the Island.

Best holiday he ever had!!!!!http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg224/kenwells_photo/Chickens-SuffolkSpainAug05028.jpg
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg224/kenwells_photo/Chickens-SuffolkSpainAug05249.jpg
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg224/kenwells_photo/Landingatthevilla.jpg
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg224/kenwells_photo/Chickens-SuffolkSpainAug05219.jpg
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg224/kenwells_photo/IMG_9467.jpg
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg224/kenwells_photo/Anotherdayout.jpg
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg224/kenwells_photo/Whataview.jpg
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg224/kenwells_photo/Chickens-SuffolkSpainAug05153.jpg
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg224/kenwells_photo/Lastlanding.jpg

[lelebebbel]

First off I was astonished to learn that there wasn’t a bigger difference in statistics.. I sort of thought it was in the range of 2:1 – 4:1 more dangerous flying RW than FW. I must have been living in a cave..

95% of all statistics lie. 80% of all people know that...

rotorcraft had an accident rate of 9.47 per 100,000 aircraft hours flown, vs. 8.38 for fixed wing aircraft, and a fatal accident rate of 2.14 vs. 1.70 for fixed wing planes

Those numbers are nearly worthless if you are trying to compare R/W to F/W safety from a pilots perspective.
When a single commercial airliner falls out of the sky, hundreds of people die. Two of them are pilots. When a helicopter crashes, there will be a lot less fatalities, but still one (or two) dead pilots.
As an example: To get a fatality rate of around 2 deaths per 100,000hrs, one commercial airliner with 200 people on board has to crash every 10 million flight hours.
To get the same fatality rate of 2 deaths per 100,000hrs, one hundred helicopters with 2 people on board have to crash every 10 million hours.

Of course, there are a million other factors in the real world that need to be looked at when comparing statistics like that. For example, I assume that a commercial F/W airline pilot spends more hours per year in the air than the average R/W pilot.

If you want to find out how safe a heli pilots job _statistically_ is, look at a "crew member" or "pilot" fatality per years on the job statistic.

[Bladecrack]

Nice pics Ken :ok:

[Lord Mount]

Garfs,
Listen to your heart and let it convince your family.

Don't make the same mistake I did.

I am still a plod. I am now 2 yrs away from being able to retire with a full pension and therefore I would now be stupid to quit the job. I had always wanted to learn to fly heicopters but I waited far too long to get off my backside and do it. I now have a PPL(H) and am currently working towards my CPL which I hope to have by the time I retire. (Better late than never I suppose).

My biggest regret is not listening to the nagging little voice in my head telling me to act far earlier than I did.

When I finally went for it, my family supported me wholeheartedly because they saw how much I wanted it.

Don't look for figures to convince them that flying helicopters is safe. Simply ask them to trust you to make sensible decisions and minimise risks.

Lord Mount

[Canuck Guy]

Talking of statistics, throw this little known nugget of truth at your family...

The Bell 206 series of helicopter is safest single-engine aircraft in history (fixed-wing or heli) based on accidents per cycle.

I had the same problem convincing my wife & family I wasn't getting into a reckless industry that would soon see me dead. So I took the time to educate them about the machines and their pros and cons to airplanes, and that you can't really compare them as they are built to do 2 different jobs. It's like comparing a bus to a Jeep.

[topendtorque]

My family thought it was VERY dangerous flying helicopters ..........so they packed me off to Texas to get my CPL (H)


Now we know that you came from a normal family, nigel, you should have learnt from that, I.E. give enough cheeck and you'll always cop a biff under the ear.

[Elan Head]

Although my family didn't fund my helicopter training, my dad did his best to talk me out of it: he works in the Forest Service, flies in helicopters all the time, and has known a number of people who have been killed in helicopter accidents. (In fact, my little brother is named after a helicopter pilot who was killed in a high-DA crash in the Gila Wilderness.)

Once I had my PPL, though, he couldn't have been prouder. He saw how important it was to me and from that point on was 100 percent supportive. He even let me take my little brother up as my first passenger...

If this is truly something you want to do, you might just have to suck it up and make it happen on your own. Once your family sees your commitment, hopefully they'll come on board, literally and figuratively. As you progress through your training, you'll also pick up some knowledge and experience that will be helpful in pleading your case (for example, my dad was really relieved when I explained to him how helicopters are able to autorotate).

There are ways to mitigate the risk of flying helicopters, and attitude and good training are two of them. If you're personally committed to operating safely, your family should pick up on that, and that will ultimately be more convincing than any statistics.

Good luck!

Elan

[jolly girl]

You may want to get on the web site for the International Association of Oil and Gas Producers - I recently sat in on a presentation by a gentleman from their aviation safety office and when they compared the records of the offshore helicopter flights they contracted with commercial fixed wing operations they were on par will commuter operations and if I remember correctly better than air tour operators (I can't seem to find the presentation or I would PM it to you), either of which you would probably have to perform on your way up to the majors. A lot of the helo statistics come from training; an apt comparison might be the rates between Robis and Cessna 172s and then offshore ops to the commuters. EMS pilot is the most hazardous job in the US but you don't have to be an EMS pilot... that eliminates a lot of risk right there. I think if you can find the stats and present them effectively you should have a shot. (I always find pulling up the monthly lists on the NTSB web site to be an effective training tool... FW, FW, FW, FW, RW, FW, FW, FW, FW, FW, FW...)
Also I'm not sure where this rumor fixed wing boys (and ladies) are rolling in cash comes from... that may have been the case in the past but doesn't seem to be the case for my classmates. So far the only time my best freind from school (pilot) has made more than his wife (nurse) was when she was looking for work after a relocation... and he doesn't expect that to change for years. I went the safety side (flying the mighty desk) rather than flight ops and it will be a decade or so before he catches up with me as well. You may want to work out a future earnings curve for both sling wing and starch and see if there really is a monetary benefit in the end...

[bolkow]

Do what I did, become such a niusance to them that when they see the accident statisitics for heli's they will insist you do rotary?:ok:

[mini]

Sod it.

Mate, grow balls and wear them. You're only here once. Do your own thing independently, life's too short.

Good luck.

[Whirlygig]

Shortly before my father died, he told me that I was to continue with my flying and do my darndest to fly professionally. Unfortunately, he was too ill for me take him for another flight.

And my mother keeps nagging me to get on with my training so I can take her flying again.

The point of this, is that my parents both came/come from an aeronautical background and therefore have some understanding of what's going on up there in the sky (and the rotorhead!!).

Garfs, I suspect that your parents reluctance is just lack of information and knowledge. If you take them for a trip, explain how it works and what happens when various emergencies arise, their fears may be allayed.

The statistics quoted are so small that to apply a % difference between fixed and helicopter is a nonsense; one more fixed wing accident per 100,000 and the stats are on par!!

Cheers

Whirls

[Garfs]

Thanks again EVERYONE for the replies, I have read and taken all on board.

Mini, as for doing it myself here, the difficult thing is I am out in Malaysia, where the average wage is peanuts, and training is going to cost me roughly £278 per hour.

To give you an idea, someone working at Mcdonalds here would be on around £0.50 an hour. If I worked in IT (what I did at uni) I'd probably be lucky to get much more than £4,000 a year at my level :{

Thats not saying if my parents wont loan me the cash I am going to give up tho. I am going to either arrange a flight for them, or at the very least get one of the instructors to speak with them to answer any questions.

I may have gotten somewhere today, when I promised that if I did go down the RW route and was fortunate enough to ever have the choice of what type of jobs I did one day, that I would stay away from what they deemed as most dangerous, ie EMS, Coastguard, Mountain Rescue etc.

Hope they start to see things a little differently soon :)

[choppertop]

Out of curiosity, if we take out cattle mustering crashes, mountain flying mishaps, slingload snarl-ups -- in fact anything that isn't sedate onshore VFR air taxi work in ISA conditions (yep, it's a stretch but try), are we saying heli flying is actually fairly safe? You could make two fretful old aged pensioners in Midhurst rest more easily here...

[HOGE]

I've never yet got into a helicopter thinking "This might be dangerous". Mind you I've sometimes thought that, halfway into the flight! However, this has never stopped me going to work!

Life, as they say, is not a dress rehearsal. Enjoy the ride, not the destination.

[patatas]

The best way to convince them is to show them how much you love flying helicopters. Now, if you don´t have it clear yet, better not cheat yourself thinking that you are entering a glamorous career. Until you get into the cool part of the job, there is a laaaarge and haaard road.

Remember that if you are having problems convincing them at the beginning, imagine when you are loaded with the exams, stressed by not having hours enought to get your first job, probably having to move to another country to get hours..., spend more money...

Well, be prepared because it looks like you are getting into a very hard convincing work. But most importantly, do not lie to them. There are accidents, that´s right, however, if you were a truck driver, what would be the accident rate? At least, we have fun up there....:ok:

[HeliRoute]

Sounds to me bud you have it bad. Good luck. Remember, on land, helos can autorotate with engine failure into a small area. FW have to find a long enough strip to land safely.
Ergo; At least we have a good chance of survival without chewing ourselves and the aircraft up... tell your folks that.
Also, remember that most accidents are redcorded as pilot error, not the a/c, so with proper training and experience, risks are seriously reduced.
Nothing wrong with Robbos... If you can fly a twitchy Robbo, you can fly anything.
I'd certainly advise taking your folks out on a test-ride to see what they think. I bet they'll love it. I wont take my father up, he's 65, if he went up, he'd get a taste for it and start having lessons!
All the best

[Devil 49]

Out of curiosity, if we take out cattle mustering crashes, mountain flying mishaps, slingload snarl-ups -- in fact anything that isn't sedate onshore VFR air taxi work in ISA conditions (yep, it's a stretch but try), are we saying heli flying is actually fairly safe? You could make two fretful old aged pensioners in Midhurst rest more easily here...

Yes, I think there are some specialties that are much more hazardous than air taxi, but even within that realm some operators do well. Excluding non-professional, non-commercial flying improves the numbers, too. Not to steal Bell Helicopter's thunder, the Jet Ranger and it's derivatives are true works of genius- but part of the reason that the 206 series had a claim as the safest single engine aircraft was the fact that it was the air taxi tool of choice. Operators safety records vary one from another, and most importantly to a pilot, maximize safety by supporting options for the individual. It's one thing to have safety and maintenance procedures in place, quite another to support the SAFE decision when the customer's screaming and it's costing everybody money.
To generalize, pilots WANT to fly, and will do so unless there's a really good reason not to. Encouraging a pilot to make the most conservative and safe decision is hard but goes a long, long way in keeping aircraft out of smoking holes.

[helicfii]

Statistically speaking, helicopters are more dangerous to their pilots than FW's. To tell your family otherwise would be a lie. Good luck to you.

[Garfs]

Remember that if you are having problems convincing them at the beginning, imagine when you are loaded with the exams, stressed by not having hours enought to get your first job, probably having to move to another country to get hours..., spend more money...


This makes me more determined to do it, as I have told my mum how hard it is to find a job as a low hour pilot, and she keeps saying that I will never get a job. Makes me more determined to find a job by hook or crook, mainly for myself, but also partly to show her its possible.

And I do know that statistically helis are more dangerous than FW, but I just dont think its as dangerous as my family think, which is what I am trying to get them to see :ugh: :)

[Whirlybird]

And I do know that statistically helis are more dangerous than FW, but I just dont think its as dangerous as my family think, which is what I am trying to get them to see

Precisely. And that's what the stats you quoted first show. If your family don't want to see that, then it's because they don't want to.

Maybe there's another way of going about this. Perhaps you should tell your family what is probably the truth - that you know it's somewhat risky, that it may be difficult to get a job, that an airline job would be safer and more secure. However, your dream is to be a helicopter pilot; nothing else will ever do, for you. You only have one life, and it's short, and you feel you have to give it a go. If it doesn't work, so be it, but you don't want to end up when you're 70 feeling unfulfilled, and saying, "If only...." That because of all that, you'll do it anyway, even without their help if you have to. But that would make it far, far harder, and you trust they'll understand where you're coming from and give you all their support, if they really, really care about you.

Use your words and thoughts, not mine, but if that's the gist of what you actually feel, then go for it! :ok: And if it still doesn't work...well, you can't make other people believe or do what you want.

[Bath]

Statistically speaking, helicopters are more dangerous to their pilots than FW's. To tell your family otherwise would be a lie. Good luck to you.



Fixed wing what?


If you add all AIB for microlights, gliders, Light GA, ultra lights , home builts, paragliders and handgliders, Helicopters seem a hell of alot safer!

[Ken Wells]

I find this "what's safer" rubbish such a waste of time!

For example here is a list of train accidents in 2008 alone. and this doesn't include the 6 people killed this year using Railway Crossings in the UK alone.( which is higher than Heli fatalities)
Is your family going to sugguest that you never travel on a bloody train ever again!!

2008
January 23, 2008 – When passenger train numbered D59 high-speed train Beijing-Qingdao plunged into a state owned construction zone where 16th Group workers started safety maintenance of a stretch track at Fangzi, Weifang, Shandong, China, killing 18 workers, injuring another nine.
January 25, 2008 – Sunset Limited Train 1 collided with a semi truck in north-east Harris County, Texas. The driver of the truck was taken to the hospital with minor injuries.
January 27, 2008 – A Pamukkale Express bound for Denizli, with 436 passengers on board derailed after two cars rolled over at Kutahya due to ice on the tracks in western Turkey, killing nine, and injuring another 50.
February 4, 2008 – According to Chinese press report, A 17 car freight train derailed, crushing several houses at Qujing, Kunming-Guizhou Line, Yunnan, China, killing at least six.
February 5, 2008. – Two people died and 1 was injured in a so-called 'fatal chain reaction accident' at a fog-obscured rail crossing in Boswell, about 30 miles west of Lafayette, Indiana. The crash involved 6 vehicles and a 50 car train. The rural crossing has seen 5 other crashes, 2 of which were fatal, since 1984. A major FRA safety review is now planned for this accident hot-spot. The 2 other fatalities were on- October 10, 1984 and February 7, 1986 between a train and a truck, in which both truck drivers and the truck's passenger in the 1984 crash died.[115][116]
February 29, 2008. – Nine people became victims of fire in Bulgarian State Railways' train No.2637. The night train was travelling from Sofia to the north-eastern town of Kardam in Dobrich region. The fire started in a couchette carriage, which had 35 people in it at the time, and then spread to a sleeping coach with 27 people. It broke out as the train was entering the town of Cherven bryag, around midnight, and took more than three hours to extinguish. Among the victims of the fire was the Rasho Rashev, the director of Bulgaria's National Archaeological Institute. Bulgarian government declared March 5 a day of mourning in memory of the victims of the deadly fire.[117][118]
March 9, 2008 – A Mar de Ajo-Buenos Aires regular route bus disregards the National Highway Route 2's crossing signal, where Buenos Aires-Mar del Plata nightly express train with 250 passenger onboard, where hit the bus at El Rapido Argentine line, outskirt of Dolores, state of Buenos Aires, Argentina, killing 26, another 60 injured.[119]
April 16, 2008 – According to ATN Bangla television report, a Dinajpur-Dhaka Ekoto Express train slanmed into a local bus on a level crossing at outskirt of Kalihati, Tangail, Bangladesh, killing 18, another 30 are injured

[Garfs]

For example here is a list of train accidents in 2008 alone. and this doesn't include the 6 people killed this year using Railway Crossings in the UK alone.( which is higher than Heli fatalities)
Is your family going to sugguest that you never travel on a bloody train ever again!!

Believe me I have tried explaining this to them and in so many different ways. I said when I used to ride my motorbike (a high powered sports bike - Suzuki GSX-R) I was probably more likely to crash. They are still not buying into it.

My dad has said tho that if I really want to do it, he will not stand in my way, even tho he will be unhappy, but my mom, well she can think of a million and 1 reasons why I shouldnt, and to be honest, I think even if there is NEVER another heli crash/accident in the world, I still dont think she will be convinced. Something I may just have to accept :(

[Bladecrack]

Ken makes a good point. Why don't you suggest to them that you could move into a log cabin in the wilderness with no electric, gas, running water, or modern appliances, become a recluse and never set foot in any sort of motorised vehicle again. That should ensure your continued safety!:rolleyes:

[Overdrive]

Tell her you'll drop the helicopter idea if she never travels on another road again... 'cause guess which is more dangerous...

[Garfs]

I threw the train statistic at them (ie what Ken Said) and they said
"Well more people travel on trains that in helicopters, hence the higher amount of casualties"

Guess they do have a point there, but my point remains, heli flying isnt as dangerous as THEY think, yes it is, but not what they think.

Maybe I should just drive round in a challenger 2

[Garfs]

God I have just had a HUGE argument with my mom over this.

She says if I be a heli pilot, I will get bored of it, then it will be a waste of money, also that I am ungrateful, she says I should get a job in IT etc etc. (So a job in IT wouldnt be boring?)

God mothers can be the most irritating thing in the world

[nathan_m]

I think if you want to do something you do it!

If you are really passionate about it then your family should see this and support your action. You only live once and for all you know you could pass in a car crash or have a serious throat infection (just an example)..who knows....

Helicopters are dangerous and do crash but alot can be done to stop that.
Such as a well maintained machine, correct training and a positive safe attitude (e.g not being a cowboy). I don't think you should rely on statistics too much but choose a school with an excellant safety record and feel confident when you fly. If you worry all the time flying dosn't become fun.

follow your dream and do what you want to do even thou itis being selfish.

My family knows itis dangerous but they support me and I am very greatful for that.

Cheers,

nath

[Garfs]

Nathan

I just wish I had a family as supportive as yours. My dad seems to be ok but my mother is just downright unreasonable.

Yes there are dangers involved, yes its expensive, yes its not at all easy to find a job as a low hour pilot, but if every potential pilot (bar those sponsored/military etc) thought like my mum then there would be NO pilots out there today apart from the type mentioned above

[jolly girl]

Speaking for myself, I don't think any of my time flying was wasted. Yes, I went out and got my ratings and then my life took an unexpected turn and I'm doing something else, but I still use the skills I developed flying (decision making, assertiveness, rational thinking) every day, and I think these skills would especially benefit any business venture (you did mention a family business) you would become involved in. Perhaps it would help your mom if she had a chance to discuss her concerns with someone in the industry? Feel free to PM.
Jolly

[Garfs]

Thanks Jolly :)

At the moment tho (as of this morning) my mother and I are not on speaking terms. The conversation started with me wanting to fly helicopters, one thing led to another and ended up having a massive argument.

The stress I am having, and I havent even started yet lol

Once (or if) we are speaking again, I may take you up on that offer.

Thanks again :ok:

[nathan_m]

lol..

wait till you tell her about autos!

[Whirlybird]

Garfs,

I'm going to be blunt about this. Falling out with your mum to that extent over this is ridiculous and childish. She ought to accept that you're an adult and it's your life to do with as you see fit. On the other hand, YOU ought to accept her point of view, even if it seems illogical. You've explained to her, and she won't accept your arguments - well, she has that right. She won't help you financially - well, there's no law that says a parent has to help a child in the career they want. It's your parents' money, not yours. Maybe you'll have to fund it yourself, as and when you can, even if it means waiting years and years. Some of the rest of us had to do that, and it didn't kill us.

Your mum is refusing to see your point of view, but equally, you're refusing to see hers. Wanting to be a helicopter pilot is as illogical as refusing to accept that helicopters aren't all that dangerous.

I know how you feel, and I sympathise. But maybe you need to grow up and realise that the universe doesn't revolve around you and your desires, if you're ever to have the maturity to be a helicopter pilot.

Also, you only have one mum, and I'm sure she loves you and you love her. She's much more important than any bit of machinery. Don't fall out with her over this. :{

[Garfs]

But maybe you need to grow up and realise that the universe doesn't revolve around you and your desires, if you're ever to have the maturity to be a helicopter pilot.



Funding has become somewhat irrelevant to me at this point. What I want is that If I ever land that first job, I would rather see a smile on her face as opposed to an angry one, ie I just want her to be happy for me on my endeavours

I dont want the world to revolve around my desires, just want her to be happy for me on my chosen career path whether I make it or not.

This morning she asked me if I still wanted to be a helicopter pilot, I said yes, she got angry, shouted, and is not speaking to me. I didnt look or want to fall out with her. I have decied to stop speaking to her about it.

Yes I can wait years and fund it myself which I am probably going to do. I have been told the Local Aviation AUthority (Our CAA Equivalent) specifies the following

"Course must run (60) weeks to meet the continuity requirement of effective academic learning for 24 weeks and 36 weeks of flight program to achieve 150.0 flying hours. "

ie no Modular route available like in the UK, which would make it easier for me.

[Kerosine]

Falling out with your mum to that extent over this is ridiculous and childish

But maybe you need to grow up and realise that the universe doesn't revolve around you and your desires, if you're ever to have the maturity to be a helicopter pilot.


FFS Whirly, what is it with the heartfelt need to come and throw your weight around? There's always one in the thread who is obviously 'all-wise' and had many thousand posts/flying hours experience to their name who has to demean the person who isn't doing things in the exact same way they would.
I'm sure you're a nice person Whirly, just like Garf is, but he's looking for support his mother obviously isn't giving him.

You start with the 'GO FOR IT' message... Touching.

However, your dream is to be a helicopter pilot; nothing else will ever do, for you. You only have one life, and it's short, and you feel you have to give it a go. If it doesn't work, so be it, but you don't want to end up when you're 70 feeling unfulfilled, and saying, "If only...." That because of all that, you'll do it anyway, even without their help if you have to. But that would make it far, far harder, and you trust they'll understand where you're coming from and give you all their support, if they really, really care about you.

Use your words and thoughts, not mine, but if that's the gist of what you actually feel, then go for it! :ok: And if it still doesn't work...well, you can't make other people believe or do what you want.

Then, perhaps when in a different mood, go for the 'Flying isn't THAT important' approach.

Also, you only have one mum, and I'm sure she loves you and you love her. She's much more important than any bit of machinery. Don't fall out with her over this. :{


Slightly contradictory for someone with such opinionated views.

[gr8shandini]

I know what you're going through. I've spent 10 years now as an engineer listening to what other folks tell me the "smart play" is. Even now at 32, my parents are convinced that flying is some sort of phase that I'll grow out of, and that I'd be much better off doubling my hours at a job that I hate in the hopes that I can retire "early" 25 years from now instead of 30.

So I'm afraid I don't hold out much hope for your being able to change your mom's mind. Just do whatever it is you need to do to be happy. Luckily, I don't have a family of my own yet so I can still change my career, but it's easy to become trapped in a profession you despise if you're not careful. If the thought of mom disapproving of your career choice hurts that much, just imagine how unhappy your future wife would be when you tell her you want to risk your family's financial security to go chase your dream.

On the other hand, if your folks are willing to cut a check for fixed wing training, why not take them up on it and transition to helos when you can do it on your own terms? While the hours won't translate 1:1 to a helo employer, they're never completely discounted.

[Whirlybird]

No, Kerosine, not contradictory, but different advice for different conversations and times. Nothing is set in stone and right for ever and ever.

I first suggested that Garfs make it clear to his parents just how important this was to him. But as I said at the end of that post you quoted, if that doesn't work... you can't make other people believe or do what you want.

I then got the impression that Garfs had thrown his toys out of his pram because his mum wouldn't agree with him or do what he wanted, ie support him. If that was the case, he would be better off not arguing with her, and definitely not falling out with her over this. He could and should still follow his dream, but in his own time, at his own expense. At no time did I say that flying isn't that important, to someone for whom it obviously is.

Garfs' last post suggests that I got it wrong about the argument, despite the fact he had stated...one thing led to another and ended up having a massive argument. If that's the case, his decision to stop speaking to his mum about it and fund his own course is absolutely spot on, IMHO. I would have said so, if I'd had time to read his post before you posted.

I can't for the life of me see why you think I'm throwing my weight around or demeaning someone any more than anyone else on here. I was trying to help, that's all. "Support" didn't seem to me to be what was needed at the point I posted, and it could have been quite patronising in fact. I could have been wrong, but since when has that been a hanging offence? I certainly don't think I'm "all-wise" and neither do I have thousands of flying hours - barely over the thousand mark, in fact. I can't see what I've done to cause your outburst...do you have a problem with me, based on earlier posts of mine? If so, it's allowed, but let's not waste bandwidth on this thread arguing about it.

[Kerosine]

There's not a single problem with you Whirly, I know you're a good'un, I just worded that in a rather blunt way.

I posted because a wanabee in an already precarious point in his life deciding between keeping his mother happy and his career was getting a dressing down in a forum where he is looking for advice.

When you say you felt like he threw hiw toys out of the pram, did you mean his last post?

Thanks Jolly :)
At the moment tho (as of this morning) my mother and I are not on speaking terms. The conversation started with me wanting to fly helicopters, one thing led to another and ended up having a massive argument.
The stress I am having, and I havent even started yet lol
Once (or if) we are speaking again, I may take you up on that offer.
Thanks again :ok:

Or the one before?:confused:
Nathan
I just wish I had a family as supportive as yours. My dad seems to be ok but my mother is just downright unreasonable.
Yes there are dangers involved, yes its expensive, yes its not at all easy to find a job as a low hour pilot, but if every potential pilot (bar those sponsored/military etc) thought like my mum then there would be NO pilots out there today apart from the type mentioned above
I can't see how you thought he needed to 'grow up', all of his posts prior seem to display a calm/mature approach to the situation.
Also, who has never had a massive argument with one of their parents?

Regardless, thread back on track..

If your mum is the really stubborn type, will she ever change? It's a shame that she doesn't realise you're aspiring to something higher than an average deskjob (no offence intended, I am one of those for now!). Bear in mind that one day your mother won't be around any more, is that the time when you should do what you want? 20/30/40 years down the line? Make the move now, try to spare yourself the midlife crisis. This isn't a dress rehersal :ok:

[Whirlybird]

OK Kerosine, point take. Perhaps I was a little too blunt at the wrong time, but I felt that what I said needed saying.

I meant the first of Garfs' posts which you quote (or the second which he wrote, depending on how you look at it). It sounded like he was more or less demanding that his mum agree and help to fund his flying, and getting annoyed when she wouldn't. I gather from his later post that perhaps I was wrong about that. But I in no way tried to suggest he needed to choose between keeping his mother happy and his career; what I actually said was.....there's no law that says a parent has to help a child in the career they want. It's your parents' money, not yours. Maybe you'll have to fund it yourself, as and when you can, even if it means waiting years and years. Some of the rest of us had to do that, and it didn't kill us.


Anyway, shall we stop wasting bandwidth and let Garfs get back to sorting out his career.;):ok:

[choppertop]

My parents begged me to become a lawyer or engineer. I became a radio newsreader. They were mighily, sometimes embarrassingly proud.

When I left broadcasting, I became a painter and decorator and then a shopkeeper. My parents begged me to return to broadcasting.

I am now re-training to be a helicopter pilot. My parents have implored me to remain a shopkeeper.

I think the point is... parents adapt. They just want you to be happy, safe and financially secure.

Follow your dreams. I have and it's worth the journey.

[Ken Wells]

Not sure how old you are Garth or where you live but if you would like to bring your mum down to Denham, just off the M40, M25 ; I'll take both of you flying.


Once she sees the potential in a great career she might change her views


Just PM me if you need to!!

[Whirlybird]

Ken,

Garfs wrote, on page 2 of this thread.... I am out in Malaysia, where the average wage is peanuts, and training is going to cost me roughly £278 per hour.


Bit of a long way from Denham.:{

[Ken Wells]

Thanks Whirlybird, just broke one my own rules of not reading the damn thread properly.:=

Still it is late and I should go to bed, off flying around the Western isles tomorrow.:zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz:

[Garfs]

Just got back to the thread :)

Well mum and I are ok now, and yes I agree with Whirlybird that theres no point in falling out over this. Sorry if it sounded like I Was being unreasonable.

When I said my mother was being unreasonable, it was because in a conversation, she was comparing helicopter flying to when I was in the British army. I had to leave due to an injury in the end, and said the same thing would happen if I flew helicopters, ie that I would have to stop doing it before I could get a job. I felt this was unreasonable and she has since also since admitted that this was an unfair comment, but thats a separate issue

Thanks for the offer Ken, but as Whirly Bird pointed out, it would be rather far to travel :). I have already asked my parents if they fancied a ride in a helicopter, but they are both afraid of heights

I just dont want my parents (mum esp) to be unhappy for years and years to come if flying helicopters is what I am doing. At least if she understand more about it, then maybe she would sleep easier at night and not be so unhappy. If they are happy, it would just make me sleep much easier at night

[Whirlygig]

If an actual helicopter ride is out of the question, you could take your Mum and Dad to a local school and ask an instructor to have an impartial chat and try to allay any fears they have. They could be shown round a helicopter (although if it was an R22, they might not be too relieved!!! :eek: :}) and ask whatever questions necessary.

Or you could show her this thread!

Cheers

Whirls

[Whirlybird]

Garfs,

Just to explain further, I think you should fly helicopters if that's what you want to do, no matter what anyone else thinks. It's your life, not theirs. However, I (mistakenly) thought you were determined to get someone else to pay for it, and were falling out over that. And while the dosh would be nice, you can't expect or assume that will work. That was my point. Right, that's over, phew!

I agree with Whirlygig. It would be good to take your parents to a flying school, where they could see that perfectly normal people fly helicopters (sort of normal anyway; someone will pick me up for that!!!). And being scared of heights is not an issue; I am too, and so are lots of pilots. Being in a helicopter doesn't affect me; I think because there's no clear connection with the ground so no perception of height. But I don't like climbing ladders, and cliff edges are horrible!

Drop along with your parents to an airfield for a cup of tea, and take it from there.:ok:

[Garfs]

I havent really spoken to my family in the past day or so about helicopters :oh:

Thing is, where I live, theres no local helicopter school. The only option for them if they want to ride in a helicopter is if we charter a Jet Ranger for an hour for about £400, and I doubt they will do an autorotation for us which is fair enough as they(the local heli op) are not a school after all.

Other option is to fly out to where the school is (2.5 hours away in a Commercial liner), but my dad hates travelling and flying :\, so theres that one gone :)

I do think the next step tho is to get a pilot or instructor to speak with them, give them an honest opinion from someone whos been in the industry.

Whirly Bird, I would be lying if I said that funding from them in form of a loan didnt matter at all to me, but its not that important to me as their happiness. As you rightly say, its their money to loan me, and their right, and to demand would be wrong, and also something I would never do :ok:

I feel I am well, errrr young (ish) at 27 so even if it takes me a good few years, hopefully I will be up and ready and starting to job hunt by the time I am in my mid to late 30's

[Manuel de Vol]

You could try telling lies.;)

If you fly rotary, how far will you have to drive to get to work? How does that compare with the distance you will have to drive to fly fixed wing?

Driving to work (if your job involves flying anything) is far more dangerous than work itself - and that's true for both civil and military aircrew.

When I was in the Air Force, they paid the 'aircrew excess' (the amount the Insurance companies loaded my insurance policy) for 7 years (the Insurance companies removed the loading after 7 years.)

Nobody paid the 'aircrew excess' on my car/bike policies and nobody really gave a damn about 'extra risk'.

Young drivers/riders tend to have more accidents in their cars/on their bikes than do older, more experienced motorists.

It may well be that young pilots have more accidents than old pilots (the 'old, bold' pilot argument) but I doubt it.

Flying is a bloody sight safer than many other jobs and it's also safer than driving to work.

You might indeed get killed in a heclopeter. You could be run over by a bus.

When I told my dad I was going to fly for a living, he was (slightly, for a few seconds) concerned. I reminded him that "What goes up, has to come down. What goes down, doesn't have to come up." Then I asked him what his dad had said when he told him he was going to sea.

If you want to fly rotary, go for it. You're alive, you get one life, this is not a practice run.