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nouseforaname
16th Apr 2008, 17:38
Hi,

I fly IFR around Europe and have been looking at the 'paperless cockpit' alternative to my Jep Airway Manual.

I've been looking at the options and found a number of suitable (or what appear suitable) tablet PC's ...one here http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140224569407&_trksid=p3907.m32&_trkparms=tab%3DSelling

Do any of you have any views/experience on this kind of thing?

Thanks.
TD

mm_flynn
16th Apr 2008, 17:54
You will find a few challenges

1 - The display quality will be a bit of a challenge in the sunlight/glare
2 - 15 in is pretty big to fit in the same kind of area as your approach plate (also if you have a PAX in the other front seat, a 15 in tablet will be awkward
3 - Poking around with the special pen is a pain.
4 - I found Windows and Jep to conspire together to not be altogether reliable.

On the other hand, team up a small printer so you can print the expected plates and have the tablet as your atlas of potential diversion plates works well.

If you are turbocharged and not pressurised, the hard disk will give up somewhere above 10,000 feet and probably below 15,000 feet.

Finally, remember these are NOT laptops - the heat generated while sitting in your lap for an hour can damage important bits ;)

SNS3Guppy
16th Apr 2008, 18:36
Some of the early units had pressure issues, but that shouldn't be a problem for current examples. I'd be leery of buying from someone else, used, however.

I've used paperless systems before, but to be honest, even with two of them on board, I've had both fail at less than ideal times. The most notable was approaching Miami during a busy time, IMC with convective weather, and getting assigned to an arrival about the time the units failed. One locked up and couldn't be reset, and less than a minute later, the other failed.

We're getting them in our aircraft again; I flew the first one to have them hard-mounted in place a few days ago. While they're handy, I still prefer paper. I've never had a paper chart lock up on me or fail. Paper's a pain to update, and pages can tear, but batteries don't go out on paper, they can be read in all kinds of lighting, they easily clip to a kneeboard or a control yoke, and I like paper.

If you decide to try paperless, I'd strongly encourage you to at least print out the charts you intend to use, before you fly, as a backup, and for the first year or so continue to carry your paper along.

nouseforaname
16th Apr 2008, 18:44
Sounds good advice thanks. Think I might try this ebay one the guy selling it says he's used it for this purpose before so i'll give it a whirl try and get a deal.

thanks anyway

IO540
16th Apr 2008, 20:01
Hard drives crash around FL140 - I put in a solid state 32GB drive into my LS800 tablet.

IFR, one is usually in strong sunshine, and a sunlight readable screen is a must.

I will send you a PM.

Mark 1
16th Apr 2008, 20:39
The new AFS 3500 Deck EFIS on show at Sun'n'Fun recently:
http://www.advanced-flight-systems.com/Products/AF-4500/Chart.gif

I expect others will be offering similar before long.

IO540
16th Apr 2008, 21:35
That MFD can't display a Jepp plate whole.

To display a Jepp plate whole you need 1024x768 in portrait, or (at a stretch) 800x600.

One product worth a look is the Iliad by Irex. I've got one right here. The PDF reader on it is crap but there is a replacement, and it works for Jepp plates a treat. You just need to print them to PDFs........... and Jepp have ensured that there is no way to get JV3 to print a large selection of plates all in one go, into separate PDFs.

SNS3Guppy
16th Apr 2008, 23:33
The solid state drive should take care of any altitude questions. All the EFB's I've seen have been quite readable in sunlight. The model with which I recently flew had day and night modes, though I found the day mode with the lighting turned down to be better than the night mode. I like any displays very dim at night.

IO540
17th Apr 2008, 06:07
I can't find the URL right now but this issue has been addressed well for the bizjet & above world, using a dedicated product which is basically just an LCD in a thin enclosure, with just one knob (a brightness control) and that's it.

It's cable-attached to a box in the plane (which is obviously some sort of PC running Jeppview) and the certified installation has two of these, one for each pilot.

Tablet computers (which is how GA pilots try to do it, not having any other choice) get close but not quite. The sunlight readable ones all use a special type of polariser over the LCD and most tablets on the market are not available with this. The Motion LS800 and the Xplore IX104 (a big brick - too big for this use) are, as are most ruggedised/milspec tablets (most of the latter are like the IX104 - too big and heavy; I used to fly with an IX104 for a year and it wore a hole in my shorts).

One could make a tablet computer say 10mm thick, weight 0.3kg, battery life 10hrs, sunlight readable, but it would not have a 3GHz processor which is what today's punters want...

Another problem I found is that at say FL180 (500mb) the cooling air is only half as thick so the thing overheats. Especially in sunlight, which is a feature of most airways flights. One has to fit a fan or do some other mods...

That said, I have used the LS800 entirely successfully to display plates which I needed in a hurry. Normally I print off dep, dest and alt but on a multi leg trip, perhaps changed around due to PPR or lack of avgas, one sometimes has to replan on the fly. A friend has a Fujitsu convertible tablet which is about 1280x900 and is wonderful; almost like paper, but not sunlight readable.

vanHorck
17th Apr 2008, 06:53
Jeppesen Germany are now affiliated with a pc store for tablets.
Their website is http://www.thetabletstore.de/

The website is also in English

7AC
17th Apr 2008, 07:22
I have an Iliad and quite like it for carrying approach charts but it has two shortcomings.
The display as you say is not wonderful though adequate so perhaps you'd tell
us about the display improvements and the second problem is you cannot index the charts to allow one to quickly access the desired airport quickly.
The black and white only display is fine though in the sunshine.

beerdrinker
17th Apr 2008, 07:56
I contacted the makers of eFLYBOOK (http://www.eflybook.com/) and they told me that they are negotiating with a supplier for European charts and are optimistic of an early release on this side of the pond. In the States they use the Government charts - not Jepps.

SNS3Guppy
17th Apr 2008, 09:23
We used Fujitsu dedicated EFB's. Cabin altitude seldom increased above 6,500', but I saw perhaps 50 or so of them fail. More often than not, in fact most of the failures, involved the unit locking up. The only way to do anything at all with it was remove the power cord and the battery, and reboot.

They were all sunlight readable, though.

mm_flynn
17th Apr 2008, 09:52
We used Fujitsu dedicated EFB's. Cabin altitude seldom increased above 6,500', but I saw perhaps 50 or so of them fail. More often than not, in fact most of the failures, involved the unit locking up. The only way to do anything at all with it was remove the power cord and the battery, and reboot.

They were all sunlight readable, though.

Remember Nouse was asking about using a pretty bog standard tablet PC (£100) not a certified EFB solution (£lots).

IO540
17th Apr 2008, 12:23
The Iliad has a user forum (Irex technology)

http://forum.irexnet.com

and on there you will find some notes on a replacement PDF reader which does away with the buttons on the bottom, thus enabling a Jepp plate to display over the entire screen height. I have not installed this yet - don't know how to (it's a weird unix device).

The American packaging of the Iliad uses some fairly crap software and actually the standard Iliad browser is quicker to use. You need to create a directory structure (country/airport/files-list) and then the built in browser works well.

IMHO the Iliad has the greatest potential of all products right now, for a straight Jepp plate display device. With the latest firmware it has a ~9hr battery life and due to negligible power consumption it doesn't get hot. But it will never work as a moving map GPS etc.

SNS3Guppy
17th Apr 2008, 12:34
Remember Nouse was asking about using a pretty bog standard tablet PC (£100) not a certified EFB solution (£lots).


I wouldn't at all consider trying to jerry rig a non-certified EFB into that role, especially if one were to intend relying upon it. Especially not a used one with an unknown history.

We have one set of jepps on board, and we have a computer and printer available (a luxury, I know, that isn't available in most GA aircraft). We're a three-crew airplane on a standard day. The First Officer generally gets the paper Jepps, and part of his duties are to print out an additional set for the Captain for the departure airport, the destination, and the alternate. That works off Jeppview in a laptop, but it's nothing one would want to rely upon while flying an approach...which is why the paper is there too.

The EFB's that are coming aboard are another matter. I've used them before, but based on my own experiences have a certain distrust. From what I can tell, most of the others to whom I've talked share that distrust. It's only a matter of time until the paper volumes eventually disappear, but I doubt we'll see a time when crews don't print off at least the departure, destination, and alternate before they go fly, as a precaution. Again, based on my own experiences, I'd say it's a prudentone.

IO540
17th Apr 2008, 14:32
I wouldn't at all consider trying to jerry rig a non-certified EFB into that role

So, you would prefer to

a) print out the plates for every possible diversion airfield along the route (say, 10kg of paper)

b) go flying with just the dep dest and alt and hope nothing unexpected crops up?

c) subscribe to, and carry, and regularly insert the updates into, the printed Jepp subscription?

Which?

I would always print out the expected stuff (like I've said) but a source of approach plates for the whole relevant area means the flight is MUCH safer than it would be otherwise.

The Jepp UK paper binder alone is huge. A European flight of say 800nm would involve carrying some 20kg of Jepp binders.

"Certified" means very little. Anybody can get a TSO for a piece of junk - just takes a lot of time and costs a bit of money. I've seen plenty of defective design avionics which is TSOd.

SNS3Guppy
17th Apr 2008, 14:56
So, you would prefer to

a) print out the plates for every possible diversion airfield along the route (say, 10kg of paper)

b) go flying with just the dep dest and alt and hope nothing unexpected crops up?

c) subscribe to, and carry, and regularly insert the updates into, the printed Jepp subscription?



Certainly, seeing as I've answered the question in detail twice now, you ask rhetorically. You can read.

The Jepp UK paper binder alone is huge. A European flight of say 800nm would involve carrying some 20kg of Jepp binders.



I'm familiar. I maintain a world set, plus military.

"Certified" means very little. Anybody can get a TSO for a piece of junk - just takes a lot of time and costs a bit of money. I've seen plenty of defective design avionics which is TSOd.


A TSO is a Technical Standard order which prescribes a level of function from a given device or appliance. It's nothing more than a standard. One does not "get a TSO" for one's equipment. One builds it to conform to the TSO. You may be thinking of a STC, a supplemental type certificate, which has nothing to do with TSO conformity.

Various classes exist for EFB's, each with their own relevant technical standards. Someone who elects to pick up a used tablet on ebay and roll their own, and then use that equipment as their sole nav source, would be asking for trouble. Clearly.

They also wouldn't be legal.

Printing at a minimum one' departure, destination, and alternate, and carrying a paper set along, is a simple task, and should be the minimum standard.

I wouldn't get too worked up over having to maintain just Great Britain in one's charts...it's just not that much area or that many approaches to maintain.

IO540
17th Apr 2008, 15:31
They also wouldn't be legal.

Reference please.