Any scope for earnings with a PPL(H)?

[KNIEVEL77]

Just out of interest, is there any scope at all for earning money with just a PPL(H)?

[Bravo73]

You could technically be employed as a 'corporate' pilot with just a PPL(H).

But any sensible owner is going to insist on so much experience that you might as well have a CPL or ATPL to go along with that TT.

So in essence, 'no'.

[Whirlygig]

For PPL holders, I believe there are exemptions for towing gliders and dropping parachutists. Er .....

That'd be a "no" then!!

Cheers

Whirls

[cyclic flare]

It wont be long before we are back to PPL's doing instructor ratings.

There are some very experienced PPL instructors out there

[flap flap flap]

Great, just what FIs who jumped through the CPL/ATPL hoops need to drive their meagre earnings/status even lower.

[Whirlygig]

A PPL can be an instructor now; just won't get paid for it! :}

Cheers

Whirls

[Bravo73]

A PPL can be an instructor now; just won't get paid for it!

And it looks like it might stay that way. The only upcoming change is dropping the requirement to pass CPL theory exams.

Anyway, to be a PPL instructor, you still need 250hrs before you can take the FIC course. Which, I'm guessing, defeats the purpose of knievel's original enquiry.

[206Fan]

Just out of interest, is there any scope at all for earning money with just a PPL(H)?If that was the case we would have an exceeding amount of youngsters flying around in R22s/44s... Probably including myself :E

[heli-mad]

I think i read somewhere that when EASA takes over they are looking to change to the old PPL/FI system. Correct me if i am wrong but you were taking some exams if you had ppl and 300h(?) to become an instructor.

Now days FI is a rating in your CPL not a license as it used to be. Older instructors might be able to clarify more.

To answer the original question....PPL earning money..NO, it took me a few year and a CPL to start earning so i think it would be unfair :(

[rotorspin]

yep.

you need to go online and buy a white shirt with 3 gold stripes.

walk around the airfield like you own it, wear dark shades and fly passengers in return for cash....

why not, every other PPL seems to do it? Why waste your money on that CPL thing? :}

[Jack Plug]

you need to go online and buy a white shirt with 3 gold stripes.

Heh,heh.


I was taught by a PPL(H) qfi who's still teaching, still making money. I would have done the same thing but I got one of the first JAR licenses so not possible. No way I was going to do a cpl just to teach. I wonder how may potential instructors have been put off by this?

[Whirlygig]

why not, every other PPL seems to do it?

Really? :suspect: Do you mean "every other" as in every PPL except the OP or "every other" as in alternate as in 50%? Either way, that's a tad harsh (as well as being incorrect) on all those who do play it by the rules.

Did you not have your full quota of tea this morning?! :}

Cheers

Whirls

[R.OCKAPE]

Go and do you CPL like the rest of us

[Camp Freddie]

helimad,

Now days FI is a rating in your CPL not a license as it used to be. Older instructors might be able to clarify more.


err no thats not right the FI was never a licence it was always a rating, under the national system up to 2000, you could get an instructor rating added to a PPL and earn money, if you had 200 hours P1 and did the instructor course.

since JAR this route is no longer available, but existing holders keep it and the right to be paid as grandfather rights.

whirlygig,

And it looks like it might stay that way. The only upcoming change is dropping the requirement to pass CPL theory exams.

out of interest can you give me a link to that information written down somewhere


regards

CF

[Bravo73]

whirlygig,

Out of interest can you give me a link to that information written down somewhere
regards

CF

CF,

I think it might've been me who said that. My only source, I'm afraid, is a thread from the instructors forum:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=321589

The opening post does reference FTN though.


HTH

[Camp Freddie]

Bravo73,

thanks found it FTN website

it does imply all PPL instructors but it may only be for aeroplanes until its a done deal you never know

regards

CF

[helimutt]

err no thats not right the FI was never a licence it was always a rating, under the national system up to 2000, you could get an instructor rating added to a PPL and earn money, if you had 200 hours P1 and did the instructor course.



At 200 hours you could do a pre entry flight test with an FIC and some written exams for FI course entry. If you didnt pass that I think you had to do more hours but seem to recall it was 250 hours before starting FI course under old system.


The blind leading the blind?

[PPrude1234]

Just out of interest, is there any scope at all for earning money with just a PPL(H)?

McDonalds???????

[KNIEVEL77]

In 2005 there were 2525 registered PPL(H) Holders, so now in 2008 let's say there are maybe 2800+, does that mean that they are ALL just flying for pleasure?

[KNIEVEL77]

Vital Actions,

So perhaps most of them do it as an accomplishment then let their PPL(H) lapse?

Thats an expensive way to satisfy your ambition!

K77.

[ChippyChop]

From what I can gather from all the begging I do to get some repositioning work or in fact anything as a low hour CPL there are heaps of PPLs doing this sort of thing for no charge, so in fact they are earning about £400 an hour in free flying. No wonder low hour CPL's have to also fly for no payment as they try to build hours. Oh and I am sure the PPLs sling the odd dinner or case of wine to the Chief Pilot in return for their efforts. Meanwhile the operators charge the owners for the repositioning and make a healthy profit!!

[Camp Freddie]

helimutt,

At 200 hours you could do a pre entry flight test with an FIC and some written exams for FI course entry. If you didnt pass that I think you had to do more hours but seem to recall it was 250 hours before starting FI course under old system.

I got my instructor rating through the national system,I believe it was in the old CAP 53 it said 300 P1 to do the course, but the CAA allowed through concession to do the course at 200 P1 + the PPL (miminum possible to get instructor rating would be)

40 hours PPL (including 10 P1)
190 hour building (200 P1 total)
25 instructor course
----
255 minimum, most people were around 265-270 total.

altogether I spent 50 f*****g grand getting professional licences and ratings (and that was years ago), and I dont see why people now should get it on the cheap !

CF

[the beater]

Just found my old logbook. Commenced the AFI course with 201 hrs P1 and 49.6 hrs dual which included a 206 conversion. Completed AFI course at 210 P1, 71 dual. Upgraded to FI at 427.9 P1 and 71 dual. Wasn't informed of a pre-course exam until the first day of the course, but was told that no-one failed it;) Three days after passing the AFI test I conducted my first instructional flight. To Camp Freddy's hours you also need to add the pre AFI course test flight, and the AFI qualifying flight. And I agree that it would seem very unfair to those that have gained commercial knowledge to have this requirement removed. In fact I do feel the old system was too easy; although I probably wouldn't be flying now if that hadn't been the case.
As regards licence holders not exercising their privileges, there does seem to be a lot of instances where that is the case. I think that the PPL is mis-sold. They're told "get a PPL and the sky's you're limit. Take off and land almost anywhere and get from A to B in a third of the time". It only dawns on them that it isn't as simple as that when they've completed most of the course and feel that they need to complete in order to not feel that they've wasted money.
In fact just a few days ago I met an ex student of mine that hadn't flown for many years, and I know of one chap who succesfully completed his AFI course and never flew again.

[LZCUTTER]

Was that you I saw in the new EC120 yesterday? near Shobdo:Dn?

[KNIEVEL77]

VA,

Some good points there, I wonder what the drop out rate is once the PPL(H) is passed and how many actual active licences there currently is?

K77.

[snowrider]

Hi

I totally agree with VA above. I am a PPL, got my license a couple of years ago but still only have about 85 hours or so. The fact that I don't know the exact number shows that I haven't flown in a while...

I love flying when I do it, but as VA says, once you finish your training you kind of lose the structure and the progression. I am current, but only just. I seem to end up doing more hours dual because of big gaps between when I do fly.

I have seen on FW that people try and buddy up with other PPLs to push each other, and to have someone to fly with and keep an eye on each other.
Sorry to go off topic, but do you think that something like this would work?

[leemind]

I have to say (as a PPL(H) holder) that vital_actions has it 100% spot on.

The only thing missing is that some PPL(H)s paid lots of money in advance to an operator who then never had any aircraft availability and then went bust :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Pandalet]

I can say that buddying up with someone else definately helps. It's great to have someone else along to discuss things with, and you learn a lot by watching another pilot, even an inexperienced one. Certainly, since I started flying with another pilot, my flying has become more structured, although it's early days yet.

I will say that I'm probably not a good example, as I'm hour building towards commercial, so I have plenty of pressure and incentive to get out and fly as often as I can afford. My limitation on flying is finance, not time!

[meadway]

I am a PPL(H) and unfortunately do not fly enough. I thoroughly enjoy it when I do and wish I could every day. Unfortunately I can't, and I like to think that I know my limitations. I actually prefer to have an FI along with me whenever I do fly (although I am quite happy without one!). To my mind, the added bonus is that everytime I fly with an FI I learn something new. Also very fortunate as they are all good company (the one's I fly with anyway!) OK, have to pay for their time, but as we all know, they are cheap!!!!, so lunch is neither here or there for what I get in return.

[Heliringer]

You could go and work on a cattle station that has it's own helicopters for mustering etc. If you learned a bit on the ground they would probably put you in the air doing bore/fence/gate runs, then you could start mustering on the property you work for. That would be legal on a PPL H.
Cheers

[Whirlygig]

Would that be legal in Australia? Aside from the fact that there isn't a great call for cattle mustering in the UK (actually, none as far as I know!), it would not be legal for a PPL to be employed by a cattle station.

The work may well be private (i.e. not public transport and outside the requirement to operate an AOC) but any earnings would classified as remuneration on a PPL.

The only way round that would be to be employed as say, an accountant and do the occassional flight as flying is not the primary reason for your recruitment. Being employed as a pilot means you are working commercially.

Cheers

Whirls

[iainms]

anyone looking to `BUDDY UP` ? around west of London? Im a ppl fed up with flying on my own or trying to arrange with friends, so if your looking to fly with some one just let me know!

[Whirlybird]

You could write about it.....not that I need the competition!!!!!

[ChippyChop]

Hey LZCUTTER, how did you spot me? Was that you in the 109?

[float test]

The only way round that would be to be employed as say, an accountant and do the occassional flight as flying is not the primary reason for your recruitment. Being employed as a pilot means you are working commercially.

Whirls

I think you might be wrong here. If you are employed by the company to fly the company helicopter with company staff on board you are not operating commercially. You paid a wage and thats it. you are not flying Joe Public.

Roland Bardsley of Bardsley Construction did this with one of his employees for years

[Whirlygig]

In your scenario, you are flying for remuneration as a pilot. A private pilot cannot fly for remuneration. Therefore, a commercial licence is required - that is what I meany by flying commercially; I conceded that I didn't word it too well but I was trying to make the distinction between public transport flights.

Cheers

Whirls

[Helinut]

I think Whirlygig's view of the JAA/UK requirements is correct. The flying should be "incidental" to your employment. If not, you are being paid for flying and therefore need a CPL or ATPL.

Not sure if it is the same in other parts.

This does not mean that PPLs don't do what you say. Just that they haven't yet been caught.

With the CAA's track record for (non-) enforcement a PPL could proibably make a career of it unitl something went wrong

[Heliringer]

Whirls,

You could be right you would be employed as a Stationhand probably not a pilot (not that the name of the job matters) and the Chopper is just one of your tools, Like a motorbike,horse,ute.
Cheers
ringer

[Squeaks]

Heliringer,

CAR 5.88, privileges of a PPL:

5.88 What does a private pilot (helicopter) licence authorise a person to do?
(1) A private pilot (helicopter) licence authorises the holder of the licence:
(a) to fly a helicopter as pilot in command, or as co-pilot, while the helicopter is engaged in a private operation; and
(b) to fly a helicopter as pilot in command while the helicopter is engaged in flying training operations for the purpose of increasing the holder’s flying skill.

Last time I looked, mustering was classed as Aerial Work, not Private ;)

It has to be Aerial Work to gain exemption for low level, etc, before that argument gets oxygen.

[LZCUTTER]

The accent was the give away ! Did you have a good flight ? Vis was Mis !

[Heliringer]

Squeaks
Have a look at CAO29.10 3.2 and you will see my info is good:ok:

[Squeaks]

Heliringer,

Nice one :ok:

But how does that stand up in court, when CAR (1988) Subsection 2 (7A) says:

(7A) An aircraft that carries persons on a flight, otherwise than in accordance with a fixed schedule between terminals, is employed in a private operation if:

(a) public notice of the flight has not been given by any form of public advertisement or announcement; and
(b) the number of persons on the flight, including the operating crew, does not exceed 6; and
(c) no payment is made for the services of the operating crew; and
(d) the persons on the flight, including the operating crew, share equally in the costs of the flight; and
(e) no payment is required for a person on the flight other than a payment under paragraph (d).

If the pilot is paid as operating crew (even if he/she is a stationhand), it cannot be a Private Op: CAR's take precedence over CAO's IIRC.

This is why I hate trying to make sense of CAR/CAO's ;)

[zigsta]

Hi,
I'm in the final throws of my PPL(H) and would welcome the opportunity to 'Buddy up'. I live in West London. Get in touch.