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View Full Version : Do the pilots have a say in this????


Basil-Fawlty
15th Apr 2008, 19:08
:confused:
Do the pilots/ATC and PAX have a say in this????

With the recent approval of the mobile phone usage on board aircraft, the airlines are now discussing the option of allowing the usage of such devices on board the aircraft. Do you think it is the aircrew's decision to allow this kind of facility on board or the airline markting department? After all it is the air crew that will be dealing with this at FL390 while the manager is sipping his coffee or wine at his comfortable apartment whatever his QNH level will be.
Also has there been sufficient research with regards to interferance from the mobile to the FMS or AFS systems?? I remember an incident when one of the first class pax on board an MH flight managed to disconnect the FMC during landing when he made a phone call from his mobile.

I understand that specific channels and certain MHZ frequencies will be allocated which are considered safe by the commision, but will it be certain that such channels will NOT interfer with navigational equipment on board the aircraft, not so much in cruise but during landing and takeoff?

Also will it be fair if you have someone sitting near you using their mobile phone who is waffling about all kinds of crap while you are trying to rest or enjoy a conversation with someone sitting next to you.

I would like to take this opportunity to ask for some feedback on this matter, especially from air crew and ATC guys who may have experienced such incidents (if any) Especially from the Middle East region.

I would also like to thank Qatar airways for taking the step to say NO to mobile phones.


Safety Concerns from previous reports

From March 1996 to December 2002, CAA recorded 35 aircraft safety-related incidents that were linked to cell phones, the authority said.

The reported interference incidents included interrupted communications due to noise in the flight crew's headphones, according to the study (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAPAP2003_03.PDF).


happy & Safe flying to all from Sybil, Polly and Manuel!:ok:

BF

anawanahuanana
15th Apr 2008, 19:39
Whilst I agree with you in the points you make, unfortunately there are very simple answers that counteract your argument, and as Devils advocate I shall put forward a couple.
Firstly, it would be very simple to make mobile phones the same as laptops etc, ie only allowed to be used after take off until, say, TOD and thereby reduce the risk of interference during the more critical stages of flight. Whether people will adhere to this request is another matter, but then I suggest those people probably leave their phones on now anyway.
Secondly, I can't see this being introduced on a wide scale without further research as the the effects. It has been studied for a long time now, and nobody is going to risk an aircraft (or in this business now more likely their reputation and pay check) without some degree of certainty it is safe.
Finally, on the point of having to listen to somebody else's conversation (something I personally hate), unfortunately flying by air is still (for most people) classed as public transport. If you want silence and privacy there are numerous jet charter operators willing to take your money. In fairness I really dont see much difference between listening the someone blathering ionto a mobile compared to 2 people having a loud discussion in my ear. Both are equally annoying.
Just putting these points out there in the interests of the debate.......

Mercenary Pilot
15th Apr 2008, 19:45
The system I saw recently had switch on the flight deck to disable the on-board network. I've had phone interference on an approach before now and I've got to say it was extremely distracting. :suspect:

outoftheblue
15th Apr 2008, 19:49
...but if anyone wakes me up on longhaul they will need a very experienced surgeon to remove the 'phone...:*

roljoe
15th Apr 2008, 19:55
Hi,

as pilot I hope to get a swich to disable the system...like Mercenary Pilot asseses...and as pax while crossing the atlantic for sim session in the US..I really hope the system will be desabled by the flight deck...

people are already so "poor respectfull" in a restaurant ;..imagine in a airplane..where you just plan to have some rest..considering the 3 days you have to spent for that purpose..;among this about 28 hours in an airline...hope this will never come alive..

FHA
15th Apr 2008, 20:54
The electronic safety aspect is (supposedly) covered by the onboard station which will facilitate reduced power transmission by the phone itself. Without the picocell then the cell phone will hunt at maximum power. Is that what you heard Merc pilot? Pretty annoying I'll bet. On approach as well? Ouch.
The physical safety aspect (as described by outoftheblue) involves not waking exhausted travellers up with "I'm on the 'plane..." etc. :ugh:

talent
15th Apr 2008, 21:46
Big problem I forecast is that when the onboard Pico cell is switched off, pax will have their mobiles turned on anyhow in the belief that, once MOL says it's OK, you can use them any time. Below 10,000 feet is when the problem starts.

There has been so much publicity on this issue recently that I am curious to know if cockpit crew are noticing greater breaches of the mobile rules?

Mercenary Pilot
15th Apr 2008, 22:01
Is that what you heard Merc pilot? Pretty annoying I'll bet. On approach as well? Ouch.Most likely that's what it was. I had to ask the cabin crew to check that their phones were switched off and if they could check to see if any pax were visibly using one. I even made a PA to remind pax that its an offence to use their phones in flight but it didn't stop until we were pulling onto the gate.

It was very distracting especially as we were on approach to an extremely busy international airport and the Wx was appalling! :* In hindsight I maybe should have filed a report or possibly even an ASR.

I'd always thought that the aircraft intercoms would be protected against it (but in fairness I wasn't flying the latest in 2 winged technology that night!) :}

Mark in CA
15th Apr 2008, 22:04
As a passenger, I would love to see the airlines ban voice calls, but allow texting and email and other non-verbal communicatons, much the way the Japanese handle it on their trains, from subways to the shinkansen. Lufthansa has also stated it will not participate in on-board mobile phone service.

ZOOKER
15th Apr 2008, 22:25
On a slightly different note.
If it's OK (and I Hope it never is!), for pax to use mobiles when airborne, then if necessary, (and, let's say only in unusual circumstances), the flight deck crew could as well.
We may have the starting point for the development of new procedures in the event of RTF failure.
Any thoughts folks?

sleeper
15th Apr 2008, 22:50
1. Actual total radio failures (aircraft equipment) are rare, I never had one over the last 30 years.
2. On our long haul fleet we already have the satcom system and that is used extensively for company comms and, sometimes, for atc ops when no datalink is available and hf is unusable due to atmosferic conditions.
3. Yes, when all of the above is not applicable then your mobile is the last resort.

non iron
15th Apr 2008, 23:49
You bought the ticket, why do you need to stay in touch ?
Personally l would shoot the half wits who insist on making a pain of themselves on board an aircraft.
Wearing shorts is worse.

TroyEade
16th Apr 2008, 01:09
As a SLF who travels on a regular basis, i do not agree with allowing any form of mobile phones on planes, especially medium to long haul. Even allowing sms'ing would be annoying. Nothing worse then hearing someone shouting down the phone "Yes, i arrive in ten hours time as i'm on a plane", or those annoying sms tones, dot dot dot dash dash dash dot dot dot (think that's the standard Nokia one), and the such like, whilst trying to get some shut eye.

Cheers

Solar
16th Apr 2008, 01:28
Will there be an increase in air rage incidents? Maybe this question should be on the predictions thread.
I would assume it has to be controlled by the flight deck as to which level it operates at, you can just imagine the pandemonium during the descent "alright dear I'll be on the ground in 5,10,15 minutes".
Are we going to get a large neon sign advising passengers that the phone won't work to prevent those that ignore the PA from wandering around the cabin looking for signals.
What about those phones that don't appear to work unless you walk with them.
Limited texting I could just about put up with but the last thing you want on a long haul is some halfwit jabbering in your ears.
I can appreciate having as they have for years the credit card phones at certain locations on the plane for really urgent calls and I wouldn't mind mobiles if used discreetly but that is a somewhat forlorn hope methinks.

mikelieman
16th Apr 2008, 02:06
You're thinking of the other thing:

SMS: ( std nokia tone ) is: dot-dot-dot-DIT-DIT-dot-dot-dot

411A
16th Apr 2008, 02:19
There has been so much publicity on this issue recently that I am curious to know if cockpit crew are noticing greater breaches of the mobile rules?
Happens all the time where I fly.
In fact, when one pax asked to use his mobile during descent to DFFD not long ago, I told the cabin chief to make an announcement that everyone was so authorized, and three hundred plus folks then tried.
Any problem?
None, even with an autoland.
Lockheed built a superb aeroplane.:E

flynerd
16th Apr 2008, 02:37
On a recent flt from LAX to SAT there were several SLFs with cell phones on. But of more concern was the sevarl who were running their laptops with their BlueTooth and Wireless networks alive within those laptops.
I was thinking, I hope the AC manufacturer (B737) has made allowances for all that electronic traffic.

:8

4potflyer
16th Apr 2008, 03:14
Actually if we are going to split hairs the standard Nokia tone for SMS is 'bleep bleep {pause} bleep bleep'.

The Morse code SMS was brainchild of the Swedes of Ericsson.

All highly annoying and I'd agree with others the policy should be silent mode only and no voice calls.

DoNotFeed
16th Apr 2008, 03:55
The main reason for this c*ap is the virtual idle situation of a very expensive satellite link supposed to be airborne internet.
Maybe some remember connex..... by big company. It simply failed for two reasons: loss of connection and pricing.

The back door is now used to activate this stranded investment. Maybe it is just another try. Airlines will end up with heavy investment in additional weight and troubles.
Marketing guys did so much harm to the industry and keep on doing.
At the end we have a customer with unexpected costs and an airline with another stranded investment - maybe:ouch:

Dysag
16th Apr 2008, 03:57
I volunteer to be the first to ram my neighbour's mobile phone down his/her throat. If other pax follow the principle of zero tolerance, the poor crew will be on the receiving end of a lot of complaints. After all, it is the airline's decision to facilitate, or not, the use of phones.

Forget about users' about rights and freedoms: PHONE CONVERSATION IN A CONFINED SPACE IS POLLUTION,
and should be treated as such.

The precedent exists: smoking on aircraft. Mobile use should be dealt with in the same way.

ankh
16th Apr 2008, 04:10
When I went looking for noise suppressing headphones --- to use just purely for noise suppression, not to amplify any music or other audio source -- I found that all of them meant for aircraft use specify they allow the human voice range to be heard despite the noise suppression. Even the professional pilot units that I happened on, though I didn't look too long.

This is supposed to be a safety feature so you don't miss the peanut cart or evacuation announcement.

And I suppose it is.

I found the answer was to double up thick compressable foam earplugs and over those a big hefty set of shooter/construction noise blocking earmuffs.

Of course if they'd announced an evacuation I wouldn't have heard a word.

makintw
16th Apr 2008, 05:01
I usually fly SQ and for years their IFE handset has had a built in phone. Swipe your CC and off you go.... natter, natter, natter.

To date never seen anyone use this feature - costs a fortune per min, so guess if the airlines price the mobile phone per minute rate similarly then, me thinks, you're not going to see many people use it.

Personally I'd say ban 'em as I usually need the rest.

Flynerd - As for the 737 and wifi/bluetooth. It first flew 04/09/67, so hope Mr Boeing have upgraded the wiring design since then ;)

v6g
16th Apr 2008, 05:33
Well I'll just have to take my cell jammer with me when I fly.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.4355 - the best $50 I ever spent

crewmeal
16th Apr 2008, 06:31
And what about phones with internal GPS systems that pax put against the window and watch the flight on their screen.

The Nokia N95 has an 'offline' setting in the profiles section which enables you to listen to the music player and use the GPS without using it as a phone.

llondel
16th Apr 2008, 06:45
Just charge £5/minute for using the on-board link. That'll discourage people, at least after they've done it once and get the bill. Then it'll only be the suits in business class who don't have to pay for it anyway, but at least cattle class at the back will be OK.

As for final approach, the solution is possibly not to turn off the pico cell but turn off the satellite link. That'll keep all the phones at minimum power and locked to the picocell instead of trying to contact something outside at full power. It'll also keep the interference to short bursts rather than a continuous signal.

green granite
16th Apr 2008, 06:49
If the person next to you starts jabbering on a phone, take out a notebook and start writing down his conversation should produce an interesting reaction. :E

Personally I find people that can't live without jabbering on their mobiles all the time very very sad.

cwatters
16th Apr 2008, 06:54
The guidelines specify a minimium height at which phones will be allowed. I assume this it to prevent problems with the cell network on the ground not to stop use during take off and landing?

With security being so high these days slightly surprised there aren't jammers on planes to stop phones being used to trigger bombs.

cwatters
16th Apr 2008, 07:05
Please tell me that cabin crew will be able to switch it off at night or at least be able to switch it to text only mode?

FlightDetent
16th Apr 2008, 07:34
Just charge £5/minute for using the on-board link. That'll discourage people, at least after they've done it once and get the bill.

That is an excellent idea!!! :D

Yes, the exact solution - Do not charge for the text/data/voice service, but start with a fee for even connecting to phone to the aircell.

"Ladies and gentlemen, in order to help you save cell battery energy for your busy schedule later today, this aeroplane have been fitted with an on-board mobile base station. The system is fully automatic, just turn your mobile phone the normal way you do in hospitals, churches and at funerals. To maintain fair price for customers not wishing to use such feature, the cost of this latest technology of convenience is offset by a small 10€ fee, charged for every single pairing between your device and the micro-cell"

As the aircraft doors are being closed, it is my pleasure to activate the system for you this very instant. Our expected arrival to destination is 15 minutes ahead of schedule, I am sure your most belowed will be happy to hear the good news. So why not call them? We're happy to help!" :}

GANNET FAN
16th Apr 2008, 08:00
Unless I have missed one, is anyone here actually for the usage of mobile phones?

I think the "air rage" possibility is very real. Imagine you are next to "I know my rights" type of smartass.

GF

terrylaw
16th Apr 2008, 08:45
Not that I can remember seeing....

No doubt some planker will say there's a demand for the "service".... as long as said planker also realises there's a demand *NOT* to have the service as well. And judging by anything I've read the against lobby far outweighs the for lobby.

Doesn't common sense say it it's a bad idea?

Of course negative demand isn't a revenue stream - it all comes down to money and s0d the ordinary passenger-ooops customer-

The jammer would give a lovely sense of satisfaction but probably not good for the electronics. It's always the good things that are bad for me, like red wine & spicey food

Basil-Fawlty
16th Apr 2008, 09:07
CWATTERS

“The guidelines specify a minimum height at which phones will be allowed. I assume this it to prevent problems with the cell network on the ground not to stop use during take off and landing?”
:ugh:
To be perfectly honest that will not do in most regions such us the Middle East. I was flying in to one of the middle eastern region on Al—Arabia airline, and just after TOD the plonkers started to dial their mobiles phones telling their relatives that we are going to be 5 minutes and so on, I was absolutely astonished at the Al-Arabia procedures, they couldn’t even control the children in the cabin let alone stopping the pax from dialling and making phone calls on their mobiles, I ended up raising an ASR on my return to Dubai. By the way this very common between DOH-AUH or any of the Gulf state sector.

Happy & Safe flying to all from Sybil, Polly and Manuel!

BF:ok:

Kerosine
16th Apr 2008, 10:59
I think investing in a cellphone blocker would be a wise move for any regular flyer. Does anyone know if this would affect any aircraft systems in an *apparently* similar way to mobile phones?

poss
16th Apr 2008, 13:31
Doesn't common sense say it it's a bad idea?


That it does but then look at the implication of 24hour drinking. I don't think people that are higher up have a brain to be fair. Keep it to specified mobile areas where they have to stand and not near passengers that don't feel a need to chat on their mobiles or just say no to the mobile phone on airlines and keep the card phones in place.

llondel
16th Apr 2008, 17:22
and just after TOD the plonkers started to dial their mobiles phones telling their relatives that we are going to be 5 minutes and so on,

That might explain why the chap in the seat in front of me started using his mobile as we were taxiing out at SFO a couple of months ago. Telling the relatives he was about to take off. The woman across the aisle from him managed to get him to stop about the time I realised what he was doing and before I could signal the cabin crew. If it's normal practice where he lives then he obviously ignored the "please turn your mobile phones off" annoucement that had taken place a short time previously.

twb3
16th Apr 2008, 17:41
From a newspaper story I saw today, there is apparently a move in the US Congress to ban airborne cellphone use. The industry (ATA) opposes, as it might deprive them of a source of revenue.

Don't know if it will go anywhere, and I wonder about the differences in regulations...say I'm flying BA ORD-LHR return...would I need to worry about cellphone noise on the return leg but not the outbound? Or both? Or neither?

TWB

SLFJan
16th Apr 2008, 18:26
Any airline that declares 'no mobiles' will be first in the queue for my business. And visa versa.
Nuff said.

SXB
17th Apr 2008, 19:57
Well, mobile phone use onboard aircraft has now arrived.

I boarded AF2653 from Kyiv to Paris today and noticed an extra symbol next to the 'fasten seatbelts' and 'no smoking' signs, it's a picture of a mobile phone with a line through. As we rotate the CC announce that Air France are trialing mobile phone use on this aircraft and once the 'no mobile phone use' sign has been switched off by the Captain we are free to use our phones. A leaflet in the seat back explains the trial and goes on to say that "the rates charged are comparable with international roaming rates but we should contact our own providers for exact costs"

The provider that AF are using is called OnAir. According to the CC it's only fitted to one aircraft, an A318, and will run until June when AF will make a decision about future use.

Sadly, the guy behind me really did pick up his phone and say "I'm calling you from the plane !" Whoever he was speaking to clearly didn't believe him.

I used my phone to send a few texts and also used my Blackberry to send email and surf the net. The Blackberry didn't really work very well, I did surf the net a little but it was painfully slow and only worked about 20% of the time, the purser said to me that bandwidth was very limited, only enough for about ten users to make a call at the same time.

There was a very detailed questionnaire we were asked to fill out about our usage and whether we felt the service was intrusive. I have to say that if they were to improve the data service I would use it but I just do not like the idea of mobile phone use on an aircraft, it's too intrusive. That said, it has now arrived and I don't think it's going away.....

Xeque
18th Apr 2008, 03:36
Step 1: Press the Flight Attendant Call Button
Step 2: When the F/A answers, ask for a glass of water
Step 3: When the F/A returns take the offending cell phone from the moron using it and drop it into the glass of water
Step 4: Hand the glass back to the F/A for disposal

It is essential that you smile pleasantly and do not raise your voice during this process otherwise you will be accused of air rage.

Job done. :ok:

Dysag
18th Apr 2008, 04:16
Re your:
"I just do not like the idea of mobile phone use on an aircraft, it's too intrusive.
That said, it has now arrived and I don't think it's going away..."

Like smoking, you mean?

Final 3 Greens
18th Apr 2008, 15:20
Step 5: Don't resist arrest

Step 6: Go to jail

jetset lady
20th Apr 2008, 15:20
Step 7: Or as an alternative, persuade the person next to you to do it instead! :E

11Fan
20th Apr 2008, 17:56
I like GG's thought "take out a notebook and start writing down his conversation...".

Then while writing, keep looking over at them, raise your eybrows now and then and every once in a while, an audible Hmmm.

Then, if you have a camera, ask if you can take their picture for your collection.

I suspect they will start looking for another seat.