First SAR AW139 On Line

[SARowl]

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/dorset/7331411.stm)

New helicopter's first sea rescue


The new coastguard helicopter can fly further and faster than its predecessor
Portland Coastguard's brand new search and rescue helicopter was put to work on its first day in the job.
The Augusta Westland 139 arrived in the morning and by 1510 BST it was on its way to its first sea rescue operation.
It was called to the Cutlass dive boat in Portland Harbour after a diver had suffered a rapid ascent.
The man was winched up into the helicopter, flown to Poole and transferred to the decompression chamber in the town.
During the rescue the coastguards arranged contact between the dive boat and a specialist dive doctor who recommended that the man be airlifted to the recompression chamber immediately.
Allan Norman, Portland Coastguard watch manager, said: "The new helicopter is a fantastic development in our ability to deliver a search and rescue service along the UK coastline.
"It has the ability to fly further and faster than its predecessor and we anticipate many more successful rescues which will prove its operational effectiveness and utilise the range of advanced technology it has on board."

[Role1a]

To quote someone else;

Don't do it Crabb

Don't

[Wiretensioner]

He will, He will!!:)

[leopold bloom]

He won't be able to resist. Nice aircraft though.:D

[Role1a]

Not that your biased LB. :E

[ninefromten]

Nice looking cab with all the latest technology but showing on the tote as restricted ops due to no auto hover!!

[Vie sans frontieres]

...and off-line again, because it's 9-o-clock and time to go home. Easy life for some! Living on borrowed time guys, living on borrowed time. Enjoy Portland while you can!

[3D CAM]

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff154/3DCAM/DSCF0646.jpg

The old and the new!

http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/ff154/3DCAM/DSCF0655.jpg

G-BDIJ, the last Bristow operated UK SAR S61, on the way to Den Helder.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff154/3DCAM/G-BDIJG-BBVA031.jpg

The last??? S61 out of Portland.:{:{


http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff154/3DCAM/G-BDIJG-BBVA038.jpg

G-BBVA, on the way to who knows what??

Not a dry eye in the house!!

Go on Crab, this is not the day!!!:ouch:

VSF

Don't hold your breath! On second thoughts, please do!!

[jhiles]

I feel extra special now knowing it was it's first day....saw it fly beneath me whilst flying along the south coast earlier, looking very impressive :)

[3D CAM]

Senior Pilot
Thanks for sorting it out. I was getting my thong in a right turmoil with the piccies!:O
It must be the emotion of the day.
3D

[Oldlae]

I'm sure that the 139 was over Exeter earlier today.

[maxvne]

There is an AW139 on the isle of man reg in the private cat that has auto hover installed surely the SAR heli should have it

[Lt.Fubar]

Nice looking cab with all the latest technology but showing on the tote as restricted ops due to no auto hover!!You do know some people out there still do it "the hard way" ;)

[heli1]

Sad to see the S61Ns go...have they gone into storage or being shipped to the US ?
I gather the Helicopter Museum was keen to save one for display but the new Bristow management turned them down...ruddy bean counters..got no respect for history !

[TomBola]

I was interested to see that the BBC website claims that the new aircraft has greater range than the old. Is that really the case? I'd be amazed if the AW139 has more range than the S61.:hmm:

[Blue Rotor Ronin]

Hey 3d cam, Jc still fuming?!!! put those pics up!:ok:

139 is a poodle in a pitbull's collar. The piffle that will follow the MCA's aeronautical self congratulations will sicken me as I know those "it's 9-o-clock and time to go home. Easy life for some!" fellas will be working hard to make the best of a blinged up donkey's arse. Oh and ps: Rather work a 24hr shift than a 12hr shift at Portland, they work more hours per month.:E

[[email protected]]

Actually, I waved at the other CG139 as it flew past Chivenor today, very shiny and fast:)

As for the Portland cab, why exactly is it limsar with no autohover? Seems awfully strange for a brand new all singing and dancing SAR aircraft.

[3D CAM]

Blue
Do I know you?:D
Crab.

Actually, I waved at the other CG139 as it flew past Chivenor today, very shiny and fast:)

Just how many fingers did you wave?:)
Probably seeing how long between Portland and Chiv. ready for the summer when you are off line.:D:D South Wales here we come?:)
I can't tell you why no auto hover, Crabette will ream me out again, so will just get on with it until it is sorted. (That is why Portland were first with the machine. No night flying, and don't fly in c:mad:p weather.:hmm::hmm:)
3D

[[email protected]]

3D - I waved all 6 fingers - I have been in Devon too long perhaps:)

I guess they were just checking how long it would take us to get down to the Portland patch when it's dark or the weather is bad:) I think it ran out of fuel before it got to South Wales!!!

Checkout the Sun Page 4 if you want to see what real SARboys get up to!

[Tractor_Driver]

I thought that they usually put the t1ts on page 3:D

[Helipilot1982]

Good One!!!:D:D:D

[[email protected]]

Oh dear, I'm mortally wounded by that piercing wit;) But it's not a very nice way to talk about your future king!!

Double oh dear - I see the 139 at Portland is actually off state for the rest of the day, it's all going terribly well:ok:

[Inverted81]

Did i hear all AW139's have been grounded today? Not just the MCA ones. North denes was operating only one serviceable S76, all the 139's were tucked away....

[Phone Wind]

There's still been no answer as to the range of this machine compared with the S61. It's obviously got good performance and is a good looker, but if it's like any of the other Agusta twins, it's also probably got lousy range. Is it really an improvement over what it's replaced? Newer is not always better.

[bolkow]

I assumed that was what he was intimating?

[4candals]

Range/Endurance and cabin space is less than S61
Wheel loading higher and groundclearance is much reduced.

External Lighting poor. Nightsun does not help as on left hand side with aircraft structure in way.

Pilot references difficult due to nose up, aircraft structure and Pilot seat set quite away inboard of side window.

Power good, Autohover is fitted and is very good.(However awaiting Full SAR modes)

No flying in cloud/rain at 0 degrees and below

After Portland goes home, one very small corporate seriously blinged up nice looking 139 covering all busy Portland/Lee patch:confused:

Should the S..T hit the fan, if more than 3 people need lifting(no joke!) lets just hope the Military from the East and West are in a position to assist.

If a spare 139 is available then it will be of no use as CG do not pay for and are unlikely to get a second crew. (Queue Crab)

[Northernstar]

A certain G-BBVA was spotted in a hangar at Sumburgh, Shetland yesterday....
Wonder what's next for it?
Has TJ got his eye on anymore derelict or out of use airframes????
:E:E:E

[3D CAM]

Crab.
All,rpt, all 139's grounded.
The Portland duty machine is actually the Lee aircraft G-CGIJ. Lee is still covered by the 61 until the 139 auto hover SAR modes are sorted out and Portland crews and engineers return from their respective courses and G-CGWB arrives. Confused?? I definitely am!
The one you saw yesterday is G-SARD, the Lee standby machine training the other Lee crews. (It wouldn't have run out of fuel to South Wales, it's the one with the overload tank!:hmm:)
Got to agree though, not a good start! Things can only get better!:rolleyes: Dust off your Wey Bay maps, I can reccomend the Jet A1 at Portland if you need it.
3D

[Vie sans frontieres]

Should the S..T hit the fan, if more than 3 people need lifting(no joke!) lets just hope the Military from the East and West are in a position to assist.

The nearest ones to the east being, er, Wattisham. Shouldn't take long for them to get there! Not to worry, it'll all be resolved with the new basing structure we're all anticipating. Rumour has it that the Portland cab is moving to Manston and going H24. (Can I exhale yet 3D Cam?!):)

[Sandy Toad]

3D CAM Where did that come from? Or do you mean the new UK SAR ships, we've heard nothing about a grounding of 139 fleet worldwide:confused:.

[3D CAM]

Sandy
Just relaying what we have been told.:hmm: See also "Inverted"s post!(Maybe just UK.) I dunno.:)
VSF
Yes, don't hold your breath.:D:D
3D

[FiveSevenAlpha]

Off topic, I know, but if the Lee cab is scheduled to venture up to South Wales again and would like a realistic landing site set up, do drop me a PM. It's been ages since we exercised with a SAR aircraft (no "training need" to work with a Coastguard rescue team, apparently, only lifeboats).

57A

[Blue Rotor Ronin]

Yes 3D you do, just left you lot.:{

[3D CAM]

Blue
Check your pm's.
3D

[[email protected]]

57A - but they probably won't do flypasts for you:)

3D - this partial grounding of the 139s is odd and the information flow about the aircraft's capabilities is sketchy - you say one 139 has the overload tank, did the CG press release not say that all the 139s would have the same range capability? The SAR autohover according to one poster is very good but not actually available yet - glad to see this aircraft hasn't been rushed to the front line too quickly;)

And no icing clearance!!!!!!!!What sort of SAR helicopter is that??

Vie - just shut Portland and move Wattisham to Manston - hang on haven't we been there before???

[Bertie Thruster]

........moving to Manston and going H24

That would be quite good for covering the busy Dover straits.
Why hasn't that been thought of before?

:)

[Bertie Thruster]

When we left Manston for Wattisham in '94, during the final beach bimble around the area, thousands of wellwishers, encouraged by the local radio station, lined the Kent coast to wave goodbye.

Many were waving bras or knickers!

Possibly something to do with the calibre of the crews?

[Vie sans frontieres]

Aircraft being rushed into service with no icing clearance?

See 'Chinook : Still hitting back' thread for further details.

[[email protected]]

And I thought civilianisation was supposed to prevent such expensive mistakes being made - cheaper and more efficient?? I don't think so;)

[3D CAM]

Crab.

you say one 139 has the overload tank, did the CG press release not say that all the 139s would have the same range capability? The SAR autohover according to one poster is very good but not actually available yet - glad to see this aircraft hasn't been rushed to the front line too quickly

What the MCA say and what it, the aircraft, can actually do are two entirely differant things! Believe the posters on this forum, they are more in tune than the MCA press office will ever be. All they are interested in is Seaside Rescue! Of the 2 aircraft so far delivered, SARD is the only one with an overload tank!! We shall just have to see what the third one arrives with. When it arrives!
Bertie.

Many were waving bras or knickers

I didnt' realise you had female aircrew then!:DON second thoughts, it was the RAF.:D:D
If any of the contractors, whoever wins, tries to close any current unit, then the local population will go bananas. When the beloved MCA tried to close Portland five or six years ago, you would not believe the amount of public feeling that evoked! Petitions in the local rag, shops pubs etc. Even a public protest march through Weymouth! As a very interested onlooker, I had nothing to do with the protests, it was very moving to see the amount of support we had. The local MP was even elected on the strength of the unit staying! I think that would happen again and it would take a very brave, or stupid, company to try any closure after what will be a very contentious contract award anyway.
(My money is still on Culdrose and Chivenor to St. Mawgan and one of those flights moving to Manston.:D:D)
3D

[Aser]

UK SAR 139 Gallery
https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/press/album210

https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/press/albums/album210/CGAerIJ026.sized.jpg

Regards
Aser

[MyTarget]

Many were waving bras or knickers!

Possibly something to do with the calibre of the crews?


Or maybe they new that you were cross -dresser's!:E:p

[Blue Rotor Ronin]

Well said 3d:D
The 139 is I'm sure a lovely machine to fly from airport to platform/airport, but it's not a SAR aircraft. I'm sure the guys 'n' gals will do the best they can but in this day and age of extraordinary technology why are aircraft manufacturers and governing authorities allowing such a poor attitude to safety and mission accomplishment to be rushed through just to please bean counters , PR machines and the MCA/DTI?... Oh.. Er..:E

[ASV]

WooooooooooW 139 what a nice machine :ok::ok::ok::ok:

[SARREMF]

Perhaps a few facts might go down well at this point? OK OK why let facts get in the way of a good moan!

Range - depending on conditions - 200nms [ even more if you have the aux tank fitted]

Autohover, fitted. Not certified yet.

Not heard a thing about a grounding? Oh, when you were all banging on about the S92 and its issues did we not all say thats what happens when you bring in ANY new aircraft! Of course Crabb, you weren't there when the Sea King Mk 3a came in, and out, and back in again. lets face it, new aircraft take time to bed in. Engineers take time to really know how to maintain the aircraft. Pilots and crew take time to settle in to the aircraft. Irrespective of manufacturer or operator.

Blue rotor Ronin. What on earth are you talking about! If the Sea King or S61 had to go through todays certification - like the 139 and 92 have - they would not be allowed off the ground.

4candals - have you actually flown the aircraft? When I did, it did not have poor references at all, the door pillar for decks was out of the way. It has a nose up attitude [about 4 to 5 degrees] but it never gave any of the pilots I was with a problem. Why does it for you?

Agree with you entirely over night sun and I think it generally needs more lights - hover floods etc. I noticed the zero degree thing in the RFM but the ice protection kit later on will make all the difference for SAR_H.

Overall chaps, are you missing the point? This is the Interim contract. Pre SAR-H. Its not the SAR-H blueprint because the requirement changes with SAR-H. Interestingly, you can easily spot who hasn't had access to the requirement by the talk of which bases can move! A lot of you are barking up the wrong tree me thinks! I believe the SAR-H IPT have been much more conservative than you all think!

Stands back. Pause. Listen, yep I can hear Crabb's computer firing up in the background!

[MyTarget]

Well said........:D:D

[HAL9000]

SARREMF,

Did you really mean a range of 200nm (ie a RoA, still air, of 100nm)? Hardly impressive. Does anyone know the true RoA that has been declared so we can see just how much further the 139 can fly than its predecessors? The MCA are an unashamed bunch of liars when it comes to press releases, they should be called to account.

[Thomas coupling]

The UAE airforce 139's can fly for about 4+hrs it seems. That would be a range of around 300miles would it not? I presume this is with aux tanks fitted.

[Aser]

if of any help this is my personal data:
AW139 with 4500kg EW
With aux. tank, max fuel is around 1600kg but limited by max take off weight to 1450kg fuel
cruise 5000' 6ºC Tas 152 (no wind)
back to base at 1000' 16ºC Tas 138 (no wind)
RoA with 30 minutes on station and 30' reserve = +-203Nm

SARREMF
Autohover, fitted. Not certified yet.
Do you mean SAR flight director modes(MOT,TD)?, because 4-axis autohover is certified and in use...

Regards
Aser

[SARCO]

HAL9000

I don't see much of an issue with the range because the majority of jobs that the SAR Flights on the South Coast will cover are well within the published range of the aircraft. In the event that the job requires the aircraft to travel further ie inland flooding then you can bet your bottom dollar that the ARCC/MRCC will have arranged refuelling well in advance which is what happened during the Gloucester floods last year.

[SARREMF]

Sorrrrrry! thats an ROA of 200nms with 30 mins on scene i.e. out 200nms, saty for 30 and back 200nms! Which agrees with Aser.

Sorry again. I believe the autohover works and the let downs etc just not search patterns! But I can be corrected!

[4candals]

SARREMF,

Please take note of the following. ASER also uses figures which includes restricting the use of the AUX Tank.

Standard Tank Fit

Fuel Flow 420-430kg/hr
Standard Tank 1588ltrs/1254 kg
70% Torque 138-140kts
20 mins on scene plus 30 mins reserve on RTN

At 140kts thats a range of 140nm exactly

Aux tank Fit
Due to weight of aircraft with limited SAR equip plus crew only 150kg is usable.
That bumps the range up to 165nm.

With this aircraft it is possible to increase the range by climbing to altitude however it isn't always appropriate or possible.

An increase in the Max all up weight of the aircraft would change this but unfortunately the Aux tank still displaces much needed cabin and storage space.

As mentioned by a previous poster range is a not a significant issue at all but I feel one can't quote erroneous figures.

The SAR crews can obviously work around but not escape the following
And this doesnt mean a harp back to the 61. They are just facts plain and simple.

Less range, less payload, much less volume,
less external illumination, reduced ground clearance, small narrow tyres mean the a/c sinks in on even resonably firm surfaces.
High vibration between 18-30kts. No flying in cloud at 0 or below
And no AVAD

I noticed the zero degree thing in the RFM but the ice protection kit later on will make all the difference for SAR_H.

Surely you dont just happen to notice this when selecting a SAR Aircraft. If its needed for the big contract then why not now.

Overall chaps, are you missing the point? This is the Interim contract.
Experiment??

Can I respectfully point out that, I believe in this case many SAR crews are actually more than pleased to have a new toy and really rather like the change after all this time. (about time)

Its only when its claimed by some to be an aircraft able to do so much more because of all this modern technology and a giant step forward for the rescue services (and they fall for it) that a few folk are reluctantly prompted to set the record straight with a few comments as above. Thankyou

[Lt.Fubar]

So just a quick question, if not the AW139, than what other helicopter of that class would work ? I don't see many competition - If MCA or CHC want two types of helicopters - big and small, than only the EC155 and Bell 412 are in the '139 class.

[budget1]

LT Fulbar

I would love to give an answer to your question as I personally feel if a medium size aircraft is required it should at minimum have the cabin space of a the old Wessex. The AW 139’s cabin space is a challenge at best and if the auxiliary tank has to be in fitted, in my view completely unsuitable for UK SAR.

It would appear the MCA have been blinged by the shiny new aircraft and they are being put into service without adequate evaluation. The S92 may well prove a good choice; it is unlikely that the AW139 will.

Yes, this is an interim contract and it would have made more sense to have continued with upgraded S61’s, even if that was to be with a different operator, I believe both the main contenders offered that choice. This would have given the SAR H team and future bidders longer to source and evaluate the best aircraft to see us safely into the future.

[[email protected]]

Oh dear SARREMF - you do seem to have firmly embraced the AW ethic of promising a good aircraft for the job but actually delivering a non-role specific machine with some bits added on which still don't quite cut the mustard.

The ice protection pack will improve the situation for SARH???? classic AW speak for not providing the right capability in the first place. Let me see....will the contractor have to pay AW more for the ice protection kit???Oh yes, loads I expect.

4candles seems to have cut through the bull proffered by the MCA and others - you don't have a better RoA than the S61 and less cabin space.

If it was only the search patterns not working, why would it be limsar for no poor vis/night ops?

I know the 3A had problems, but that was 13 years ago and I keep being told by you and others that buying off the shelf from civilian sources prevents expensive cockups and delays - not so it seems. This is the 21st century but aircraft manufacturers are still happy to operate to the same shoddy standards of old.

[Geoffersincornwall]

I was once asked to give a short presentation to a bunch of makey-learny Test Pilots on the subject of how they can help develop a machine fit-for-purpose. I disappointed them by pointing out that in real life they get what they are given and try to get the best out of it then they give it to us drivers who have to find a way of delivering the goods in the real world despite all the RFM limitations. I make no claims to be an authority but having operated a dozen or so helicopters in a dozen or so roles I can say that without the flexibility and adaptability of the flight crews there are many tasks that would have been left undone.

Remember the most prolific EMS light twin was the Bo105 - built like a brick ****-house but shook your fillings out during the landing and single engine ops were so marginal that when MBB went back and checked the numbers they reduced the Cat A numbers by 170Kg. But we set up the UK's first EMS operation with it and it did a damn good job.

The dear old S61. I've probably got more time in that than anything else but you have to face up to the fact that it could not deliver the CG contract as written without (illegally?? at the time anyway) overloading beyond the certified MTOW. The C of G of at least one machine was so marginal that we dare not weigh the aircraft accurately.

The Sea King - great workhorse and as long as you have a bus-load of Ginger Beers, a truck-load of spares and a couple of spare machines in the hangar it will do the job brilliantly, despite having a hoist so far back that transfers to some vessels and subs relied on a bit more than skill.

I could go on but I wont bore you. Suffice it to say that given a rotor and a couple of engines you can almost do any job anywhere if the drivers and crews are good enough but the closest I have come to feeling that "At last a good basic platform with joined up design" was when I got out of the 139 after my first trip. And, ladies and gentlemen, it can only get better. Watch this space.

G

:ok:

[Vie sans frontieres]

The Sea King - ................... despite having a hoist so far back that transfers to some vessels and subs relied on a bit more than skill.


Should've tried using the boat's axis then! :)(Sorry, different thread.)

[Winch-control]

Apart from the negativity of pilots that believe the only way to hover is boats axis (how the hell do the Senior service ever cope?) and the lack of auto hover, (isn't that the pilots job vmc day). :ugh:
Fear change or accept it and work with it, its going to happen!:cool:
ROA? Sufficent to cover the Channel and surrounds.
Ilumination? Day cab.:ugh:
Freezing (0 deg minus) capability still being studied in 2001 at Chivenor on the Has MK3a! Your argument is? got there evetually after 35 yearstho still limited?:cool:
However, maybe the cabin is too small...:D

Runs back to post office.....

[3D CAM]

WC

(isn't that the pilots job vmc day). :ugh:


Day cab.:ugh:

Er, just a small point. Lee on Solent is 24hr. all weather and Portland is 0900-2100ish. all weather! Or had you missed that bit?
3D

[[email protected]]

Winch control - you know that some pilots can cope with aircraft axis AND boat axis decks;)

I'm not sure what you mean re icing clearance on the Sea King - there are limitations on DA and AUM but the fact is it is cleared down to minus 7 degrees without any fancy icing protection kit unlike the shiny new AW139 which has NO icing clearance.

Say hello to Mrs Goggins and Jess the cat:)

[tophelios]

Just my point of view as a SAR capt (flying a 4 axis as365n3):
- 3 axis is enough for 90 % (95%..) of the sar missions,
- SAR version of ec 225 (japanese coast guartd for exemple) is for me the top of the SAR chopper,
- 4 axis on a chopper is an option that cost at least 1 million euro more...
- 1 SAr ec 225 = 2,5 as 365 n3 (in term of price)
- 1 SAr ec 225 = 1,8 a 139...
- don't know about the s92...
Then , a lot of things being considered... not just our pilots point of view....

[HAL9000]

It is easy to lose sight of the real issues once the bickering starts.

Why is the MCA allowed to get away with headlining grabbing statements about the new aircraft being more capable than the old when they patently are not?

It is not just a matter of opinion about subjective aircraft handling characteristics but performance figures from the relevant documents.

[SARCO]

HAL9000

I don't know what your beef is with the MCA but it is getting tiring, if you have a complaint why not make it to them instead of banging on about it here, you stand more of a chance getting a reply from the MCA or DfT than you will here.

[ASV]

I have a question ..

Who control the flir camera on the 139 the front crew or they have observer on the back ?

[Rescue1]

Winchop/man in the back;)

[Vie sans frontieres]

If there's enough space for him!;) Word is the Sproule Net may be making a comeback to free up a bit of cabin space.

[Lost at Sea]

Why is the MCA allowed to get away with headlining grabbing statements about the new aircraft being more capable than the old when they patently are not?

Because they're learning very quickly from the RAF! :E

And let's face it the MOD were the expert advice/consultants on the interim SAR contract! :eek:

Now my question, why does the RAF have headlining grabbing statements every 10 years about being 80 or 90 years old when the Navy and Army who must be over 1000 years old don't bother. Is it because the senior service and the army don't have an inferiority complex? ;)

[ASV]

is it possible to control the camera form the front or not ??????????:sad:

[MyTarget]

In the 92 you can't control the camera from the front, but you can view the picture from the flir thou.....So i think 139 is the same!:)

[SARowl]

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll24/SARowl/P1010016.jpg

The crew for the first shift.


http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll24/SARowl/P1010014.jpg

A new IJ and an old IJ.


http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll24/SARowl/IJWB1.jpg

The last time the South Coast S61's were together

[Pofman]

VSF If you ever used a Sproule Net you would not want it back. It takes up a lot of room, was awkward to handle and in anything apart from calm seas needed skill and lots of practice. Good for bloated dead bodies though but you still have to bring it in for transit.

[ASV]

Thanks MyTarget for reply, so i can't control it from the front :ugh::ugh::ugh:

any 139 pilot can give more info :{

[ShyTorque]

The crew for the first shift.


Look, it's so small they've even had to get smaller crew members! :E

[Aser]

ASV there is a console in the back, but you can see the flir in the screen in the front, so you just need to grab the joystick from the back to play.

[ExSAR]

Doing some research on FLIR systems for a fleet of new AW139s to be operated in the SAR role in the Gulf. Grateful for any information on which FLIR system is fitted to the HM Coastguard AW139s? Thanks

[leopold bloom]

I believe the FLIR fit is the Wescam MX - 15i.:ok:

[ExSAR]

LB - many thanks for the info.

[C4]

How is A.D. Bill?:ugh: