BA Management (Split From T5 Thread)

[frangatang]

It also looks suspiciously like there is a spot of sabotage from our dear loaders taking place at T5. I am talking about the number of times loading equipment has been left dumped behind a parked aircraft such that it cant push back until someone moves it and the its not my job guv is still alive and kicking!

[Two-Tone-Blue]

It also looks suspiciously like there is a spot of sabotage from our dear loaders taking place at T5. I am talking about the number of times loading equipment has been left dumped behind a parked aircraft such that it cant push back until someone moves it and the its not my job guv is still alive and kicking! Today 13:22

Oh, God, please spare us such stupidity.

And people wonder why other people emigrate to get away from Glorious Britain.

[BAengineering]

I agree, Frangatang, what on earth are you talking about? As if the loaders would sabotage the operation. That is a very perilous accusation to make.

Hey why don't you post it on the internal 'intranet' chat rooms and see what IR problems you cause.

You should retract your unfounded statement:=

[schoolkid]

why don't you post it on the internal 'intranet' chat rooms and see what IR problems you cause.

BAeng, perhaps some frank and open discussion amongst BA staff is exactly what is needed right now, instead of threatening those who are willing to speak out. To call a spade a spade, any reasonable man can see that part of the problem in getting T5 up to speed is the rediculous demarcation situation that exists.
Instead of berating management for the past week, perhaps BAeng, you should direct some of your fire to some, not all, of your colleagues over at T5.:ok:

[vanHorck]

i ve posted here before. BAeng must either be retired or has an office of his own...

Anyone going to Heathrow can see that the problems are not only managerial but that there is still an "us and them" attitude. Rantings about MBA's?

How about agreeing it seems BA has a fundamental cultural problem, which starts off with incapable management, apparantly a lack of middle management, BA suffers more than most from the 'ole British disease where the capitalistic management exploits the socialistic workers....? Time for all to grow up and all levels to look at where THEY themseves failed.

I m sure there were those BA employees who went to T5 early the first day, fully intent to help make the opening a success. I applaude you!
Then there were those who went there with the customary wait and see attitude and who revelled in the initial chaos, thinking they found themselves some bargaining power for an additional break or two. Well done to you to, i hope you loose your jobs
Finally there was the incompetent management which failed on all counts including planning and PR. I hope you loose your jobs too

So it s a mess all around which is sad for those with honest intentions and it s not just a management issue or an MBA issue

[vanHorck]

poor man...... Hope the pension fund won t suffer when BA collapses.....

[BAengineering]

Wife of a colleague travelled out of T5 on Monday and all went well.


Basil - your mates wife must be one of the lucky ones, did she write into Willie to let him know of her Terminal satisfaction? He'd love another letter..

Schoolkid - the name pretty much sums it up, whilst not wishing to be goaded, how on earth is a threat to suggest a BA staff member puts a serious accusation up internally within BA? That way those he has levelled such serious accusations will have a right of reply. That my dear child is called a level playing field. My main concern with the Frangatang's accusation is it comes from a 'troll' management poster. The concern is obvious, left with little to explain their continued performance issues, they are looking to start blaming a section of the staff community. I repeat, he should retract his posting or make an official complaint to the respective persons, union etc. Now be a goodlad and run off and finish your homework.

[BAengineering]

Petley - Didn't see the paper, would love to see the article about deadwood if you can post it. Don't know about him being public enemy No1, I know he ain't too popular amongst BA. Just goes to show, when you keep someone on who may well be extridited to the US as part of the price fixing scandal, you get all that you deserve.

I will emphasise, Mr Gareth Kirkwood is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. There is a vast chance that he may face charges in the coming months for his part in the price fixing scandal that hit BA and cost scrillions of shareholder monies!! In that case BA won't have to sack his arse for the VAST Terminal chaos that is ongoing at T5. If he does end up doing time, for heavens sake, don't put the bloke in charge of the mail bags... He has form with bag mountains you know.

Link to article here.... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=477624&in_page_id=1770)

[BAengineering]

Vanhorck - are you smoking weed in Rotterdamn? Is that the sort of flying experiance you bring to these hallowed forums? Please concern yourself with your own financial arrangements, like how your going to pay for your next bag of scragg! But please enjoy your current trip, bet your pleased you never carry bags.

As far as the BA pension is concerned, we are in good hands. As of January 2007 we have become the proud 'landlords' of Tesco stores. :sad:

LINK to article (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investing-and-markets/article.html?in_article_id=416124&in_page_id=3)

Another fiasco of BA's, (though another thread) buying into property just as the property market is on the way south. Nice one trustees. So as you see, after successfully screwing 2.1 billion out of the pension members in Spring 2007 they have also squandered another chunk of the fund. I am very much unconcerned with the BA APS or NAPS pension fund, I am long past that point.

[schoolkid]

BAeng,
You missed the crux of my post. Demarcation issues amongst elements of the workforce at T5 form at the very least , part of the diffilculties encountered since 27/3.

As for the pic of the baggage truck,accompanying a Alitalia machine on the previous page, I feel it's misleading. Chances are, being T2, its heading for a venerable 757 or the like....containerisation hasent taken over all of LHR yet you know!


Now be a goodlad and run off and finish your homework

As for my name on here,all I'll say is appearances can be deceptive...:E
I wont reduce to slander on these boards.

[Hot Wings]

Sadly, Frangatang speaks the truth and this is known about at the highest levels of the company. Sorry if the truth hurts.:sad:

[BAengineering]

I wont be reduceing to slander on these boards


Ah but if your not a schoolkid, why do you spell and write like one? It's either that or you are an MBA holding superwhizz BA manager. Or maybe your Willie himself, West Coast of Ireland, schoolkid refering to his pint sized stature?

Schoolkid with your deceptive ways please write 100 times;

'I won't be reducing to slander on these boards'

And I won't be replying to you anymore, as with all exposed BA trolls, they go on my ignore list. :ok:

[Basil]

frangatang,
cant push back until someone moves it and the its not my job guv is still alive and kicking!
Recollect in the 70s as BA FO, manager asked me to move a luggage tractor intentionally left behind our aircraft. I declined but politely suggested that he remove the offending machine.
The vehicle remained and the flight was cancelled. I was astonished that our manager did not just jump in and move it. In his position I would have done so.

[BAengineering]

Frangatang, Hot Wings et al, the truth is a rather deceptive beast at BA. If what you are saying that the baggage/ground handling staff are deliberately sabotaging Terminal 5 than I suggest as before this is raised at the highest levels, formally.

If it turns out to be true and not more BA PR spin, then those responsible should be brought to book. But seriously I do not think that is the case as most, including myself, wanted to see T5 a success. That way after the serial basket case BA is becomming, our futures may have been saved. As it stands the unmitigated disaster that T5 has become, I am sad to say I think this is no longer the case.

If what Frangatang is saying is fabrication then of course this is an irresponsible statement to make and disparaging to a hard working group at BA.

Oh, the truth is far from painful. Its why a full and independant investigation into what happened should be commissioned.

[schoolkid]

But BAeng, you gotta remember , an awful lot changes in 7 years!:D

Getting rid of Willie right now would be a complete knee-jerk reaction....do we really want somebody like Kirkwood stepping into his shoes in the short term at least.:E

[ElectroVlasic]

ElectroVlasic, It's not the MBA it's self the people are slagging off, it's the fact that, in most cases, they are given management positions immediately after they get it and have no experience of how that industry functions.
In the old gays even the bosses son started as "tea boy" and worked his way up through all the departments so that he knew exactly who did what, how and why.Yes, this is how "Roger the Cabin Boy" worked his way up, right? :}

While I've seen your point being made, I've also seen various people's biographies posted, and when they've listed having an MBA, the resulting comments are that the person must be an incompetent idiot, etc.

I agree that one must gain the prerequsite experience before being put into positions of authority. If they are putting newbies into positions of authority, then they get what they deserve.

Luckily, in my company, most people I know who have an MBA only decided to get it after a few years or more in the trenches, and usually end up getting it by taking classes after work, so their experience builds as they are gaining the MBA.

[ElectroVlasic]

Basil,Re allocation of blame which features large in this thread. Since we mention lifts and escalators and lounges; who would be responsible for delivering those in working order While such blame matters to some degree to those of us on this forum, to the general public, all they see on the front of the building is "British Airways". It's their cock-up, plain and simple. If the place wasn't ready for prime time, they should have delayed the launch till it was.

[Wodrick]

Yes, this is how "Roger the Cabin Boy" worked his way up, right?

I thought this was a contact sport

[vanHorck]

No longer ATC and BAeng

If this is true..... only a few rats can make the dyke unsteady......
Time for some cameras airside....

(from a stoned Dutchman)

[BAengineering]

Vanhorck - very good response 'touchette', very funny. On the serious note, I do not believe this to be the case, and of course your correct, Heathrow is probably the most covered by CCTV area in the UK.

Hence the loaders would be crazy to be playing such defective games. If the rumour proves to be true, I promise I will resign my membership and refrain from posting. that'll give the BA mangers watching something to get on with.

I think our loader colleagues are more honest than that.

[BAengineering]

Herald Tribune - "We want to get bags quicker to customers and if it's quicker to send them to Milan or by Fed Ex we will use it," a British Airways spokeswoman said on condition of anonymity in keeping with company policy.

Are BA press office suddenly becomming shy? Company policy to maintain anonymity? That'd be why so many of them are on here!

Have you ever heard such immature nonsense in all your time at BA?

[Shaka Zulu]

BAengineering, well please resign your membership status and stop posting because it IS happening.

no-one is best pleased with our performance and indeed I feel mightily ashamed whenever I get a question about T5. You've done more than enough on this forum by your incessant postings (as shown by others).

However don't blame the loaders either way, they have had to do with major cost cutting in the manpower department and I'm sure the way our 'managers' have communicated it hasn't really empowered them. Knowing that they talk to us like children.

Hopefully there will be a big mop up in 'middle management' who have to communicate to up above that their departments were ready for the big move.
It's a great new home for us though and I'm sure it can work properly.

[luoto]

Re the BA spokesman comment stuff.. Many firms don't as a matter of rule have their spokespersons quoted by name "just a BA spokesman, " "BT spokesman etc" but the IHT and some U.S. papers have a style that they must quote a name OR say why they don't.

ditto for government.

I have no insight into BA's press team, but I guess it is that.

[BAengineering]

Shaka Zulu - what on earth are you saying? confirming the loaders are sabotaging the Terminal 5 operation (i'd like to know your source/proof as I've not seen it) yet state 'don't blame them'.

Now that really is a VASTLY ridiculous proposition to make.

If they are sabotaging the operation then it needs to be properly exposed and the persons responsible brought to task. As I have repeatedly stated these allegations and supporting evidence (which you must have) needs to brought immediately to the attention of senior management. I still don;t believe its true and stand by my promise to resign my membership on demonstration of your allegations. I am still waiting.

As for incessant posting, there are a number of PPrune members who enjoy my musings. Additionally with a thread that is running at nearly 1000 posts of which only some 70 are mine, the VAST MAJORITY are other peoples postings. Indeed many of my postings are in direct reply to BA managers who wish to spin their PR on this thread.

[BAengineering]

Throughout, the Company (BA) has behaved like a 19th century mill owner.


Now that is taken directly from the respected BALPA website on the openskies issue. Personally I think it's a misquote as 19th century Mill owners wouldn't have cocked it up so bad!

[racasan]

BA Eng,
Congrats, 100 posts.
BA.... been there, done that, won't make same mistake again.....

[BAengineering]

My word Racasan ol bean, I'm mighty chuffed you noticed, 100 posts, it's gone so quickly, almost effortlessly. I still stand by my statement that the VAST MAJORITY of posts have been made by BA managers!:}

Still i have made 10% of the postings, so by BA standards, when 90% of flights are classed as being the VAST MAJORITY of the operation. Though when you think that the longhaul Op hasn;t moved over from T4 the portion of flights cancelled just from T5 is shocking.

Oh and you definately must be an x engineer with a name like Racasan, beautiful stuff, covered in it many times from my classic days!!:yuk:

[Sallyann1234]

@BAengineering

Ah but if your not a schoolkid, why do you spell and write like one? It's either that or you are an MBA holding superwhizz BA manager. Or maybe your Willie himself, West Coast of Ireland, schoolkid refering to his pint sized stature?

Perhaps you should correct your own spelling before criticising others' efforts.

[BAengineering]

Sorry SallyAnne,

I was being funny, I don;t really expect everyone to proof read all their posts or to expect such precision in ones posts.

I will endeavour to provide accurate and precisely spelt posts from here in. Thanks for correcting me, as I said I am just human and in my walk of life, spelling is not a prerequisite, just a nice to have.

BAA - a building provider that like BA serves its shareholders to maximise profit. LHR is a mess but some of the regional airports they own are just fine, such as stansted.

don't have much of an opinion about them, as an earlier poster said, BA is on the door, when it cocks up it's BA customers look toward.

SallyAnne, can you proof my post for me? PM me any changes, save me the embaressment. Cheers.

[haughtney1]

1. BAA person unknown managed to delete a cell from an excel spreadsheet and all values in that column went up one so that userids and paswords were mismatched . Nothing to do with BA but added to the problems getting into the building resulted in 10000 bags not being loaded during the first few hours of operation and BA unable to get hold of the operation on the day again.

2. Another company forgot to turn the inter terminal transfer baggage system from test where you dont want bags transferred to live. again f*** all to do with BA staff or managers (with MBAs or not)

3. BAA failed to load correct BA schedule into the baggage system. Again nothing to do with BA

BA staff at all levels have in general have been working like hell to get the show back on the road. It is little wonder BAA have said nothing and I am surprised no one has passed the above info to a BA friendly journalist (if there are any).

Care to offer any proof to your comments 5Bells? or are you merely expressing a "company" opinion?

[L337]

Care to offer any proof to your comments 5Bells? or are you merely expressing a "company" opinion?

Honestly, how can u "prove" that or any other post on pprune?

And for all you know, it just might be the truth. As inconvenient as that may be to the massed ranks of anti BA posters.

[BAengineering]

Viewfrom5bells - you changed your post. I will reanswer. If that is correct then I am shocked. I think BAA should pay BA lots of competition and I take back all I have said about BA mismanagement of the situation.

Meantime, back in reality, what utter tosh. I love the way BA managers, looking to save their thickened hide get on here with their fanciful 'plots'. Trotskiite baggage teams sabotaging the operation, mistery BAA persons unknown deleting 1 cell on an xcell spreadsheet which throws the building into chaos.

Indeed how can BAA fail to load BA's schedule? No one knows BA's schedule, is that the Plan A, B C or D schedule?

The 'weak links' should have been identified and contingency planned for, what happened to turning up before the show a little early, make sure everything is running as expected. BA should of offered an incentive to get staff on the first day at their posts well in advanced.

[SLF3b]

Like a previous poster, I have just had mail from BA telling me how they are about to move into T5 and how wonderful it will be - received after the event.

Also have an email asking me to complete a survey on why I am flying less often with the worlds favourite airline.....

I am flying with them less often because I am tired of being treated with total contempt whilst paying premium prices for a sub-standard product. There was no way to communicate the good news on the survey form.

I guess they will have to work it out for themselves.....

[BAengineering]

L337 - yes of course things can be proved, the call from parliament for an independant investigation should be welcomed.

Personally I am concerned about the allegations related to the baggage staff. Maybe if there are any viewing they may want to jump in and provide a comment.

When I'm next in work I will make my own investigation into the matter, tip off a couple of senior managers who might have some influence and have the balls to do something about it.

If it;s going on, which I very much doubt, it has to be stopped.

[L337]

He is asking for proof to be displayed on this forum. Clearly that cannot happen.

When I'm next in work I will make my own investigation into the matter, tip off a couple of senior managers who might have some influence and have the balls to do something about it.

ROFLMO

[BAengineering]

SLF3b - That is exactly why I am so angry about what is going on at BA. Good people like yourself are leaving in droves.

those people who post the 'good news' on here have been reading and believing the BA news or are BA PR dept. Stop sticking your head in the sand, wake up and smell the coffee.

BA is a spent force, something big will have to occur before it turns around, but like the proverbial super tanker it'll take sometime. Sorry to have let you down SLF3b, and in response BA is too arrogant to work it out for themselves. If you can be arsed you may wish to let them know directly, let us know the response or lack of that you get back.

[Bronx]

BAengineering

Do you think maybe you're becoming just a little bit obsessive about this?

Seems kinda strange to me if you work for BA that you keep knocking the company on this public forum. I guess their PR folks are doing their best in difficult circumstances, but you're doing your darndest to persuade potential customers on this high profile website not to believe them.
Wouldn't you like to see BA get over this problem as soon as possible and keep its customer base and win back any who got put off by this chaos? :confused:

B.

[BAengineering]

L337 - what on earth is so amusing about that? If it's going on I'll have a look, no problemo. (as BAA would say)

I know enough people in baggage that'll give an honest answer to prove or disprove the allegation. That's a positive step, what do you propose to establish the facts being submitted on this board?

[L337]

Bronx:

BAengineering is the classic rogue employee that works for BA. The majority of the thousands that work for BA are dedicated hard working and committed people. Yes poorly managed, but 98% are out there day in and day out trying to make a cr@p system work. Some do nothing but complain, and see bad in everything. You work with them, and all they do is bitch and moan about everything. They see no good in anything. Some even spend there free time complaining in public, to the largest audience they can find. If, and that is an if, BAengineering works for BA then I am deeply embarrassed to be in the same company as him.

He is here on PPruNe trying to do as much damage as he can to BA. Irrespective of any truth, he has his agenda. He hates BA. It shows, and it is sad, but it shows.

[L337]

L337 - what on earth is so amusing about that?

That you have such a high opinion of yourself.

[BAengineering]

Bronx - sorry, most of the replies are now in response to people like you!!!! How can that be obsessive, you may think it would be rude not to respond.

I think the VAST MAJORITY of BA staff are feeling like me, very dissapointed that a once great company has come to this desperate point. It is not just the T5 problems, look deeper into the organisation, look at the possible pilot strike and the strength of feeling from BALPA their Union. It is without doubt going pearshaped.

Look further, price fixing, record competition commission fine, 777 crash at LHR (though of course yet to understand the reports from AAIB), these are all in the last year. BA is busting at the seams, the pressure from within is immense, what you are seeing is the results of an organisation in trouble.

Of course like all others it would be good to see it turned around, just I'm lost for ideas on that front. Maybe other posters can state their top 5 decisions if they were CEO.

I'll provide mine in due course, it will be my last post.:ugh:

[L337]

I think the VAST MAJORITY of BA staff are feeling like me, very dissapointed that a once great company has come to this desperate point

Indeed, but the vast majority of BA staff are trying to put it right, not bitching and moaning on PPruNe.

[rondun]

Hmmm, I wonder......

Has Michael O'Leary ever been seen in public when BAengineering is online?:E

[BAengineering]

L337 - there is nothing in that post with any hint of high opinion. All I was stating in response to your statement that you can never find 'proof' was that of course you can, that I'd go have a look myself. How you percieved this to be a reflection on my own self opinion speaks volumes about your own intent and purpose of your posts.

You then go on to suggest that BA is full of moaners and good people like yourself just struggle on with your cando attitude. That BAEng is one of the moaners and idlers. THis despite the fact that I said i would do something positive about the allegations of what is going on at BA.

I personally find the allegations to be divisive and dangerous, they could blow into a full scale industrial issue, especially if it is BA managers spreading the rumours for their own end. Saving bacon springs to mind.

L337 - please contibute something positive instead of becomming fixated with my own postings. If you don;t like what I'm saying then please by all means, hit ignore.

[BAengineering]

L337 - have you actully been into the crewrooms around LHR, they blokes on the floor, who make up the VAST MAJORITY are highly humiliated but laughing their heads of at the major balls up WW and Co presented to the world.

THey did contribute as best they could, they did their bit, it was the big bosses that let them down so badly

[BAengineering]

THE BALLS UP WAS ABOUT THIS BIG IN IMHO!!!!!!
http://images.businessweek.com/story/08/600/0402_willie_walsh.jpg

Business week has a great report into the fiasco at LHR

British Airways Hit by Heathrow Fiasco (http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/apr2008/gb2008042_811276.htm?chan=globalbiz_europe+index+page_top+st ories)

[Yellow Shark]

A few comments about this thread: where it started, where it has been and where it seems to be going.

Firstly, the unfortunate situation that has arisen at Heathrow, be it the fault of the BAA, BA or their sub-contractors, is certainly “thread worthy”. Many of the comments that have been provided are interesting; as ever much of the conjecture is far more interesting.

However, the thread has now seemingly disintegrated in to a playground spat with abuse and accusations being thrown around like confetti. Certain members seem to be either on a crusade to either attack the companies they purportedly work for or individuals within those companies. It has degraded far enough for qualifications of others to be denigrated and mocked, the spelling of individuals to be ridiculed and abuse seems to have become very much the order of today.

I really don’t see PPRUNE, or indeed this thread, as an appropriate forum for such maltreatment of individuals. Nor do I see such repartee as anyway constructive.

My recommendation, made somewhat sadly, would be to close this thread as it has, at the very least, drifted way off the original intent of the thread, and more probably is doing more harm than good. Little, if anything, will be learned from its continuation.

The Yellow Shark

[L337]

You then go on to suggest that BA is full of moaners

Nope did not say that at all. I said. but 98% are out there day in and day out trying to make a cr@p system work.

L337 - have you actully been into the crewrooms around LHR, they blokes on the floor, who make up the VAST MAJORITY are highly humiliated but laughing their heads of at the major balls up WW and Co presented to the world.

Of course I have. I am a pilot with BA. As I said. Yes poorly managed, but 98% are out there day in and day out trying to make a cr@p system work.

THey did contribute as best they could, they did their bit, it was the big bosses that let them down so badly

That is an assumption. Yet proven.

[BAengineering]

L337 - In all my years at BA i have never, i repeat never seen a pilot in a crewroom. I very much doubt you are a pilot at BA, I have a great deal of respect for our pilots.

Yellow shark - even if you are not working for BA PR dept, your suggestion to shut down the thread would be fully in synch with their intent on censorship.

If this thread has disintegrated is because a swath of BA managers are on here knocking anyone with a real insight into what is going on, to challenge the spurious accusations about colleagues.

Funny, just saw on the box, advert for ZOOM, low cost, full service, friendly staff. That's main stream TV advert, that is the face of the competition.

[L337]

L337 - please contibute something positive instead of becomming fixated with my own postings. If you don;t like what I'm saying then please by all means, hit ignore.

No. Sorry will not hit ignore. I find your posts so repulsive that I cannot and will not ignore them.

[L337]

I very much doubt you are a pilot at BA

are you a betting man?

If this thread has disintegrated is because a swath of BA managers are on here knocking anyone with a real insight into what is going on, to challenge the spurious accusations about colleagues.


can you prove that? ... no need to answer. Of course you cannot.

[BAengineering]

L337 - Getting a little strong with your postings, indeed I had decided to finish, but you finding the postings to be 'repulsive', it would be ashame not to keep you entertained.

I do find it strange you enjoy repulsive postings, hey each to their own.

[BAengineering]

L337 - your getting a little tedious now, your on my ignore list. See you. One thing I will bet you, bet you I never reply to another one of your posts. Your on your own mate, till you pick another alias from the BA created profiles.

Bye and enjoy the deskjob.:ok:

[L337]

it would be ashame not to keep you entertained.


Not entertained. Just disappointed that you (apparently) work for BA

[Yellow Shark]

I think my point has just proven with the last post (#1006). Whilst one makes a polite attempt to try and diffuse the situation, and either allow a regression to a sensible discussion or closure on the whole matter; again we very quickly fall back in to the playground spat.

As for the comments made directly to me, they are really not worthy of reply.

Again, I think time has unfortunately come for this “off thread” thread.

The Yellow Shark

[Shaka Zulu]

If (and this is a big IF) you had read my posts properly then you would have seen that I have a great deal of respect for most of the loaders. There have been massive cuts, they work with poor equipment and as always BA doesn't treat them with much respect.
Massive overtime has been required long before T5 to keep the show on the road (BY ALL DEPARTMENTS, even if some of us do not even get paid for it on the day).
I spoke to one loader and he was properly exhausted 3 weeks ago, I can only imagine how he must feel today.
And yes of course I can not PROOF what I say, however where there is smoke......
Been in BA a reasonable while to understand the inner workings...

It's a sad fact that proper management would have sorted this situation before it had arisen. We have a leadership team in place that falls on the 1st hurdle: LEAD.
2nd hurdle: they properly do manage very well, but they manage costs and not people.
So what might look good on paper, might not generate the cost savings they envisioned in their ivory towers...


T5 IS and will be a beautiful home I hope for us in BA. I for one am mightily proud to work for this company.
I have VERY big bones to pick with this 'management' but as it goes for the brand and loyalty towards my company I will always go the extra mile.
We'll see what comes from it, but it's clear some 'managers' have spun the truth they heard from the front line. This information has watered down through the upper echelons to an 'all seems okay' message, hence the current problems.
And there is the nub: COMMUNICATION and RESPECT for eachothers jobs. Empowerment and a feeling of trust that your complains are carried to the right people.
I can only blame poor management for it as recent surveys have shown.

I feel sorry for all that is going on. I hope we can make it up. I shall try

[747-436]

L337 - In all my years at BA i have never, i repeat never seen a pilot in a crewroom. I very much doubt you are a pilot at BA, I have a great deal of respect for our pilots.

There were a couple of pilots in a shared rest room in T5 earlier today.

[Hand Solo]

We used to have rather sociable crew rooms at BHX, MAN and GLA where flight and cabin crew mingled. Perhaps I missed the bit where engineers and loaders were awarded the monopoly on crew rooms.

[Rightbase]

Is that rest room as in American english?

[BAengineering]

Shaku Zulu - Nice post, if I mistakenly suggested you were knocking the loaders then I retract that comment. Clearly from your latest post my poor assumption was wide of the mark.


I have a great deal of respect for most of the loaders


Further I am very much aligned to your observations


COMMUNICATION and RESPECT for each others jobs. Empowerment and a feeling of trust that your complains are carried to the right people.
I can only blame poor management for it as recent surveys have shown.

[747-436]

Is that rest room as in American english?

No rest room as in crewroom as in a lounge where staff can go and sit while on break.

[BAengineering]

Rightbase - very droll, 747-436 was sharing the 'toilet' with other staff at T5. Toilet as in standard Queens English. No I'm sure he mean't the new way of working and shared crewrooms in T5.

Traditionally crewrooms have been segregated affairs around the airport. My appologies to Handsolo, who I know is a pilot, never been to those stations so don't know the setup.

Going back to skahu Zulu's statement about each group of staff respecting each other will be assisted by the 'New way'. I guess that will be something that needs to bed down.

AS for L337 - he can pop over to our crewroom anyday, evening or night, he will be eternally welcome as he has given us all a 'right good laugh'.

BAEng

[BAengineering]

He said: "BA spends a lot of time familiarising people with the new environment. Our whole philosophy is [T5] has to be a great place to fly from and to work in.

Coby explained that members of staff were closely consulted to define processes to be simple and more efficient, while also ramping up customer service.


What utter tosh, interview was 1 week before the opening. Looks like staff weren't familiar nor the processes simple or efficient. Thats the true face of BA PR 'sex it up'. Shame about what happened that it all came back to bite on the arse.

[overstress]

I get it, BAengineering, you're a committee, not just a person. You're all logged on in your crewroom (which we pilots never go in, must be true because you've never seen it) and taking it in turns to post! That's how you can post round the clock...

PS L337 is definately a pilot, he/she has been contributing to debate on this pilots' forum for several years....

[BAengineering]

Overstress - thanks for wrapping that one up, glad to know L337 is a pilot.

Is a committee opinion any less or more valid. Indeed I think the posting by many simply reinforces the truth behind the 'real opinion' of staff.

Why is the pilots italicised? Are you suggesting a forum not for others, such as engineers. A little eliteist........

The invite stands, Overstress and L337 your very welcome to our crewroom

Anyway we really do have to go right now.

[Rightbase]

Thought so (Hoped so!)

My job makes me a pedant, I'm afraid, but I have witnessed a few unnecessary misunderstandings caused by our common languages with eraser-using americans and thong-wearing aussies.

[infrequentflyer789]

BAeng,
You missed the crux of my post. Demarcation issues amongst elements of the workforce at T5 form at the very least , part of the diffilculties encountered since 27/3.


Are you suggesting that employees introduced additional demarcations when they moved terminals ?

If not, then this is purely a management problem / fault.

If you know that you need 1 A, 2 B and 2 C for a job and you allocate 5 A, then it's your fault if the job doesn't get done, not the fault of the As not being B/Cs. That applies if you are a manager scheduling people or an engineer picking components, or tools or whatever.

The fact that the A/B/C employees could perhaps do all the different jobs is irrelevant - you should be scheduling within the known restrictions.

[schoolkid]

Are you suggesting that employees introduced additional demarcations when they moved terminals ?

Not exactly. My feelings were that with such a large transition to a new operation taking place ,this element of BA industrial relations may have further compounded the problems of the first week.

[al446]

I originally thought I'd stay out of this but BAeng has brought me into it. On another thread I seem to remember his bona fides being challenged and response being lacking, could be wrong, in which case apologies.
Seems to me this has turned into a "Isn't WW a ****?" thread. Fair enough.
If you guys want to carve each other up, up to you but I think you are losing sight of the fact that all the time you are having a go at each other the true culprits are running away with performance bonuses. Keep it on track, I am only an aspiring PPL and frequent flyer but it is OUR money that keeps you flying, OUR perception of relative merits of airlines and OUR willingness to part with aforesaid cash to who we perceive to be the best deal. If you want to have foghts amongst yourselves I would suggest that it is best carried out in your own airline's forum out of the glare of public or press, if you do not do so I would be minded to think you hold no position in that company or may be a management stooge.
Those of us lurking outside of the PP community, there are more than a few, try to keep as quite as poss, we see some things of which we have little understanding but gives us food for thought, highly value the skills and professionalism of you guys but then read some of this crap and realise that you are no longer demi-gods but the same as the drunken bozo in the boozer we have spent half the night trying to avoid.
Now, can we get back on topic and discuss the problems of T5?:)

[BAengineering]

L337 - 07.34 posting, you may be getting a little obsessive about this, maybe you ought to give it a rest? Just a polite comment.

But while your here, and this is not intended to be flammatory, please can you give me your valued opinion with respect to certain elements of the BA staff survey. You have generally criticised my contributions for the reason that they are anti BA, that this is not compatible with being an employee.

As has already been stated in this forum, the VAST MAJORITY (to catch a well used phrase) of BA staff responded by stating, if asked they would not speak highly of thier employer. That my dear Pilot Colleague (has been confirmed) is the real crux of the matter. I unfortunately am not alone.

Reading your posts, we clearly have much in common, i too believe the managerial contribution in this fiasco is the real causal factor. I too believe an 'independent' investigation should be conducted, expediantly, and acted on with respect to the findings.

I am sure what will really happen is BA LT team will use it as another opportunity to slash working conditions further. These BA trolls that appear on here knocking the loading department. Infrequentflyer is absolutely correct, if management does not schedule correctly, right man right job. A little like having an A320 pilot being asked to captain a B777. Its obvious really and cheers for pointing out this simple principle.

Nice post from luoto, yes I can't wait for this weeks BA NEWs, should produce further contribution on here! As for the link you attached, i thought I'd post the front page for others to view, Dawn of a New ERA, maybe it should of read 'End of an ERA', well that's how I feel about what has happened.

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/Pictures/web/m/y/c/P01_BA_NEWS_T5_COVER_1302.jpg

[Right Engine]

BA Engineering,

Hi there. By admitting that you are a 'computer permanently logged into PPrune in the engineering section' and you therefore are the comments of whoever happens to be sat on his break at this particular PC, explains a lot!

I was of the opinion before learning this, that you were a someone who definitely needed to get out more (as you have managed to post every 10 minutes for nearly a week). Your variable grammatical powers and wavering opinion also caused me some confusion.

Now we know that you are not a schizophrenic, could I make a suggestion to you at the Engineering crew room?

Could you all get your own log-ins? It would make more sense to the rest of us.....

[L337]

BAEngineering: To quote you.

L337 - your getting a little tedious now, your on my ignore list. See you. One thing I will bet you, bet you I never reply to another one of your posts. Your on your own mate, till you pick another alias from the BA created profiles.

Bye and enjoy the deskjob.

Along with you edited, deleted, and inflammatory posts, you are wrong again.

[BAengineering]

L337 - please see if you can rein back in from the lunatic fringe and actually contribute in a professional manner as one would expect from postion as a BA pilot.

Please actually read my post and respond, the question levelled to you about the views of BA Staff, in an independant anonymous survey.

Oh, BBC ramping up again, stating the BBC have recieved so many letters about BA and their indifference to the plight of our customers. That BA are continuing to let down those affected by the luggage issues. Indeed one lady, expecting to get married, you guessed it, the wedding dress is in the luggage!! It's stories like that which clearly illustrate the personal tradgedy behind the chaos.

[BAengineering]

Right Engine - now your definately a pilot, (or pilots) considering your own posting;

Would anyone care to share their experiences?

Yours sincerely,

The BA pilot community.

From the BALPA BA dispute thread, you clearly speak for the whole pilot community, or maybe you are the whole pilot community? All 3000 of you.

AS for posting every 10 mins, that is laughable. Did you take all the times and out them into an xcell spreadsheet? Make sure that mystery man from BAA doesn't delete a cell, you know what could happen then, innaccurate information and Terminal disaster. :ugh:

[BAengineering]

Is BA operating a 'one step forward to steps back' or a Dr Doolittle 'Push me Pull me' management philosophy?

Judging by the post on the Guardian ONLINE (http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2008/apr/03/heathrow.theairlineindustry) I think either one would suit. How on earth can BA still be reporting 17,000 bags are still at Heathrow. Despite all the huffing an puffing, the 400 management volunteers, they have still only reduced the 'baggage mountain' (sounds distinctly EU) by just 2000 bags. (using BA's own figures)

Using my rudimentary mathematic skills, over a 7 day period using 400 Management volunteers per day, that works out at 22,400 manhours over the last week. (400 * 8hr day * 7 days)

Taking this further, it looks like it takes some 11.2 hrs (1.5 days) to move each bag. Now that is an prime example of BA efficiency. But then we have to remember these are untrained, undirected personnel, so what can you expect?

Judging by current performance, assuming the same level of 'volunteering' can be afforded by BA (Paying overtime rates) then I expect the bag situation to be resolved in 60 days (17,000 bags * 11.2 * 3200 manhours per day)

Judging by the DR Doolittle approach taken by BA management, it is no wonder we have decided to ship the baggage to Milan for sorting. Especially for an airport which has had a recent history for organised baggage theft, LINK. (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CWU/is_2004_March_1/ai_113769681) Why did we contract it out? Because our current performance mean't there was clearly no way to reunite bags anytime within the next 2 months! If it wasn't so serious you may laugh....

[BAengineering]

From the same Guardian article above this little gem!

BA pilots are expected today to blame the T5 fiasco on the airline's management.

Come on guys and girls at the front end, this is what we've been telling you since Terminal Thursday. Glad you've finally got on board!!! And that includes you L337.

[BAengineering]

Luoto - your posting has made the British tabloids, just goes to show the press actually read this site to pick up on interesting themes.

read the article here, well done Luoto on picking up on something newsworthy.

Daily Mirror - A FLYING SHAME (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/04/03/a-flying-shame-89520-20371254/)

[Joetom]

One way to ease the pressure at T5 could be to coach the passengers to Milan and fly outer there.

Rumour about switch 2 will change into 2.1/2.2/2.3/2.4, these will be split by 14 Daze. 2.2/2.3/2.4 will be reconfirmed at T5 minus 7 Daze to allow for any unplanned problems.

Has anybody seen the PR team yet ???

[Right Engine]

BAEngineering,

An individual asking for the opinions of others on behalf of their community is a bit different to a community acting under the guise of one 'individual'.

Apart from that important fact, I hope you realise that I am in agreement with most of your postings whoever happened to be sat at the computer......
:eek:

[BAengineering]

Further update on earlier post, Pilot position detailed further in
TIMES ARTICLE LINK (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3670961.ece)


The British Air Line Pilots' Association (Balpa) is preparing a statement condemning Mr Walsh and calling for better leadership of BA as it faces the twin challenges of moving to a new terminal and greater competition on its lucrative transatlantic routes


What has been pointed out on PPRUNE right from the start is that WW's position is untenable. That as this fiasco continues, 1 week has passed, the calls for his resignation will get louder and more forceful. But the culpability, which Willie has accepted, does not stop there.

Again, sorry to repeat, an independant investigation needs to be undertaken into the 'long road to T5' (T5 being synonomous with disaster) I am sure that long road will throw up slackers and shirkers from the management community, those that went through the motions, ticked the yes boxes and thought, 'it'll be alright on the night'.

It needs to be conducted soner rather than later to ensure staff confidence is restored. An independant investigation is necessary as staff sadly exhibit a VAST mistrust of their management.

[racasan]

BAeng
Not X eng mate, still up to me eyes in it, but with a real airline.....

[vanHorck]

just so you know....

WW as an abbreviation stands for "Werkeloosheids Wet" or Unemployment Law. Guess WW needs to apply for WW

[infrequentflyer789]

BA Engineering,

[...]
Could you all get your own log-ins? It would make more sense to the rest of us.....

Assuming they're in T5 - they probably do all have their own logins but only one of them works :)

[BAengineering]

Right Engine -

Apart from that important fact, I hope you realise that I am in agreement with most of your postings whoever happened to be sat at the computer......

I think that these threads demonstrates a very important point, this thread has wavered and degenerated into a school playground slanging match. At times of sheer frustration this is inevitable, the important point is that we keep talking, a slowly, slowly we start to see a converrgence of reasonable moderate opinion.

The importance of talking and maintaining REAL negotiations should not be overlooked in the way BA management have sought to deal with our pilots. They have tried to maintain REAL engagement, the company refuses and spins. That is the true face of BA management, that i why we as staff are so frustrated, of course we want this company to be successful, it holds our future.

THough with the current 'shower' in power we are in a Terminal decline. I personally very much applaud the BALPA leadership for their responsible and professional aproach to the current dispute. I think the corporation has reached the TIPPING point, it will get better, but once we've shed the current unwanted balast holding us down.

BAEng

[flatfour]

Is there not a senior person in baggage handling at T5 on this forum who can tell us honestly what really happened from planning, through testing, to launch day ? I have been involved with the management of very large projects in a heavily unionised business and whilst some teething problems could be expected this outcome appears to be baggage handling chaos. I should like to know what really happened at each stage.

[ironbutt57]

Sounds a bit like the baggage system fiasco when the new airport opened in Denver....

[Sunfish]

Flatfour:

Is there not a senior person in baggage handling at T5 on this forum who can tell us honestly what really happened from planning, through testing, to launch day ? I have been involved with the management of very large projects in a heavily unionised business and whilst some teething problems could be expected this outcome appears to be baggage handling chaos. I should like to know what really happened at each stage.

"They could tell you....but then they would have to kill you".

You will undoubtedly know about "cognitive dissonance". Otherwise known as "Talk to the hand", or "Lala lala lala I can't hear you!"
"

[BAengineering]

Sunfish - very well put, in support of what you state, (how do you know are you an x-staff member?) this is a recent post from elsewhere on PPRUNE. Looks like BA management are very popular.

Arrogance is the byword of BA management. The results are perfectly plain for all to see in the T5 debacle - what price the Company Slogan "Fit for Five" now?

If any peasant dares to offer a thought to the Lords of BA then they had better be saying how good the new clothes look on the emporer, or its a disciplinary hearing all round.

To mix a metaphor and quote the sage of Omaha:

"Its only when the tide goes out that you can see who'se been swimming naked".

What a bloated, arrogant, bullying, short-sighted little collection of robbers they are.


by shortfinalfred

[M.Mouse]

BAengineering

I too am a BA employee. I am embarrassed by the T5 issue and see much wrong in BA in many areas.

I am tied into BA by virtue of the pilot's seniority system. What is your excuse for staying in a company, the running of which you hold in contempt and which you are continually running down on a thread viewed by thousands of people on a worldwide website? Are you hoping to undermine and destroy what little credibility we have left?

Your postings are tedious and destructive. I am not alone in wishing you would spend a little more time reading and a little less pontificating.

[BAengineering]

M.Mouse- no your not contraversial, rude yes, contraversial no.

I will set the same question for you that I asked of L337, which has not recieved a reply. As you seem to wish to castigate me for being the one that speaks out, when the truth is many others feel exactly the same.

The answer is not to ignore the issues, as BA PR dept would wish to happen, just brush it all under the carpet, typical arrogant attitude. No the way forward is for 'open' and if that means under the gaze of the world so be it. (BA have removed the ability for employees to discuss these issues internally by making you have to 'logon' before you post!) There is no facility within BA for anonymity to forward such views.

I do not see the postings made on here as regressive, they are indeed progressive and have recieved support from other readers.

The question for you M.Mouse is that in the internal staff survey the VAST MAJORITY, if asked stated they would speak badly of BA. That is demonstration of the strength of feeling within BA.

Please feel free to respond to the question, I would very much appreciate your contribution.

(p.s - has anyone on here ever admitted to being a BA manager? If any of you are on, maybe you'd like to COME OUT?)

(in response to your question - much like you the longer one has spent in an organisation the more difficult it is to find the same conditions elsewhere. Much like you I have committed much time and effort. Of course BA can be good again, the need for dramatic change is necessary)

[BAengineering]

Has anyone given the thought that the T5 chaos may have been deliberate? Let me throw you a few thoughts.....

Last year I believe the 'engineered' cabin crew dispute which suddenly dissolved without any ground given anywhere, after the pension changes had been 'managed' through the organisation.

Look at it this way the cabin crew threatened dispute cost BA an estimated £40 million. The £2.1 billion pension swindle was exercised during the smoke screen and fuss over the cabin crew distraction. Typical standard IR technique. The pain was certainly worth the gain...

Hence, could it just be possible the fiasco at T5 was brought about as a distraction/smoke screen pulling the wool over employees eyes? Use it as a way of pushing through radical changes to the terms and conditions of employees? Or is there something we are missing, something we can't see yet?

Are the BA management that stupid they could get it so badly wrong? Is the pain worth the gain, a calculated risk?

Discuss...........

[Hot Wings]

If you've observed the look of panic and fear in the eyes of Walsh and Kirkwood you'd know that it is not deliberate. Unless of course the whole thing has been engineered by Martin Broughton - but does he even exist?!

[BAengineering]

Check out the following video;

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/BUSINESS/04/03/heathrow.hassle/

Great video in which they state it was a 'monumental cock up', and question Mr Walshes future, hinting that Mr Walshes series of appologies are now falling on deaf ears as the hassle continues! It even refererences the www.weewilliewalsh.co.uk (http://www.weewilliewalsh.co.uk) game, saying once you've had a spoof video made about you in this way, your credibility is shot.

So, it appears my views are very much in kilter with current opinion.

[BAengineering]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3195/2384274415_ddc4008010.jpg?v=0

[gatbusdriver]

A lot less to trawl through now that I get this message an awful lot........

This message is hidden because BAengineering is on your ignore list.

[Seat62K]

I would guess that if BALPA comes out against Willie Walsh that his position might actually be strengthened, since significant shareholders are, as I stated earlier, generally only interested in profit and share price and, certainly in relation to the former, Walsh is probably seen as having done well (so far).
On another matter, terminal capacity/crowding, I wonder whether Terminal 5 might not end up being one of the most crowded at LHR. I haven't looked closely at the numbers, but I understand that T5 is built for 30 million pax per annum, with BA already carrying around 22 million (not sure whether this includes the Spanish and Australian routes to be consolidated at T3). This doesn't leave much capacity for future growth. Will the new incumbents at T1 and T4, for example, be able to offer passengers less crowded terminals?

[luoto]

BAeng.. no big deal. BA's share price has been up and down like a whore's drawers anyway.

One month:
http://finance.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=0&chdet=1207236600000&chddm=10731&q=LON:BAY&

Compared to the FTSE it has generally tracked but the last few days show a 2% change. The one year is better.
http://finance.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=0&chdet=1207236600000&chddm=511&cmpto=INDEXFTSE:.FTSE&q=LON:BAY&

One year (compared in red to FTSE)

http://finance.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=0&chdet=1207236600000&chddm=62853&cmpto=INDEXFTSE:.FTSE&q=LON:BAY&

[BAengineering]

For all those posters saying 'BAeng' shut up you'll spoil it for the rest of us, grow up and look at the figures. WW & Co delivering shareholder value? What? Look at the value of BA shares over the last 12mths, can one of you more financially astute members comment.

There are serious problems at BA and the T5 fiasco, like ShortFinalFred has said, the tide has gone out and there he is, short as the baggage delays are long, standing stark :mad: naked.

WW get your clothes on and 'rack off' as Rod Eddington would probably IMHO say! (well it is Australian)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2216/2384287895_cd5e347fd7.jpg?v=0

[BAengineering]

Luoto - nice post but think your wrong about longterm trend, your own posts shows a 10% decline in the FTSE over the 1yr period, whereas BA has taken a 40% decline. That my dear Finnish, vodka swilling colleague, is not following, it is divergence!

It look like BA and the FTSE parted company in about OCT last year, by the graphs you kindly provided.

Oh the vodka drinking thing, is an affable comment, as I just love Finlandia, beautiful smooth crisp spirit. Great for drowning your sorrows at times like this.

As for the bloke who has BAEng on 'ignore' whats the point, he'll never be able to follow the thread without viewing my comments. Anyway one less BA Manager to 'manage' with.

Has anyone noticed how the desenters refuse to answer our very relevant questions? Me is starting to think the answer contains rather uncomfortable truths. Or the managers are off researching a suitable response. If judging by their efficiency relocating the bags for BA customers, I guess we will be sometime waiting......and waiting.....and waiting.......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Skipness One Echo]

BA Engineering I'm not sure with your obsessive anger at BA I'd want you working on anything I was going to be flying on anytime soon. BA have announced that a full T5 program will be flown on Saturday. We're a week in, it's all gone badly wrong, people are working hard to fix it.
Willie Walsh's reputation lies in tatters, as does BA but the brand, given time will bounce back and T5 will in the end work well. However if the pilots strike does go ahead, and given the current set up with Open Lies I think you're finished if you don't kill this stone dead, then there finally exists the possibiliity the BA brand will be broken. And with something that special, that took a major effort.

This thread has just drifted into waffle and personal attacks, might be an idea to start afresh when there's something new to report? Mods?

[luoto]

All I said was that BA is not performing particularly badly (following T5 decline) compared to the FTSE and that the markets are so far not as bothered about it as others maybe.

BA probably does have its problems, I have no position on them.

Over the longer term BA shares might have lost value (or has it corrected itself to a more reasonable value... that is something that financial analysts can argue over as share price is normally something someone is willing to pay).

Things go up and down, just look at Ryanair's share price vs BA's vs ftse for example on a % basis.

http://finance.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=logarithmic&chdeh=0&chdet=1207236600000&chddm=10731&cmpto=LON:RYA;INDEXFTSE:.FTSE;LON:AIRF&q=LON:BAY&

But I don't care :) And I don't work for BA either. Or any of the companies mentioned in this post.

Maybe BA hopes the Yanks will come and save it (from last night's news wire)


NEW YORK, April 2, 2008 (PRIME NEWSWIRE) -- A great opportunity to visit Europe this summer, with an added $50 bonus offer on land arrangements, is being launched today by British Airways.

Roundtrip airfares begin at $378 between New York (JFK or Newark) and London, with comparable sale fares available to other cities including Brussels, Paris, Amsterdam and Prague.

Travelers also have the option to upgrade to World Traveller Plus, the airline's premium economy cabin, starting from $125 each way from select U.S. gateway cities to London.

Travelers purchasing roundtrip tickets within this period will also receive a $50 discount per person on land arrangements throughout Europe, including hotel, car rental, airport/hotel transfer and sightseeing, such as London Sightseeing Pass, Paris Express City Tour, Amsterdam City Sightseeing Tour, and the Prague Vltava River Lunch Cruise.

Fares are available for sale through Thursday midnight (EDT), Apr. 10, 2008. Travel is valid from Apr. 8, 2008, through May 25, 2008. Sale fares are also available for travel May 26, 2008, through Sep. 3, 2008.

Further information on this promotion and other British Airways offers are available by visiting the airline's website, www.ba.com/april.

Comparable airfares are available from all 18 British Airways' U.S. cities to destinations across the U.K. and Europe. Sample roundtrip fares include Boston/Brussels starting at $495, Miami/Zurich beginning at $723, Dallas, Ft. Worth/Frankfurt starting at $623 and Denver/Istanbul starting at $879.

World Traveller roundtrip fares must be booked and purchased seven days in advance and are nonrefundable. World Traveller Plus roundtrip fares must be booked and purchased 21 days in advance. Fares may be higher for other travel dates, from other U.S. departure gateways and to other destinations. Weekend (Thursday-Sunday) surcharge applies at $30 each way. Fares are subject to government approval and do not include government fees and taxes from approximately $165 to $250 and a $2.50 September 11 Security Fee. Minimum stay of Saturday night is required and maximum stay is 11 months. $50 savings must be purchased with British Airways roundtrip published airfare originating in the U.S. Other significant restrictions apply.

[luoto]

Finlandia huh...

Real stuff is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koskenkorva_Viina

[pasoundman]

Seat62K
I would guess that if BALPA comes out against Willie Walsh that his position might actually be strengthened, since significant shareholders are, as I stated earlier, generally only interested in profit and share price and, certainly in relation to the former, Walsh is probably seen as having done well (so far).

Yabut ......

You need some customers to have any turnover never mind PROFIT.

By scaring the pax (and especially the profitable pax) away Wee Willie has cut his own throat.

[BAengineering]

Skipness - with respect, I wouldn't dare interfere with your professional status as I assume a pilot, I have uptmost respect for that communities integrity and professionalism. I would have no hesitation of flying with you or any of your very highly trained and industry respected colleagues at BA.

If you are stating you have confidence issues with BA engineering in general you should raise that through your safety review board. Just because and employee or group of employees are angry does not mean in any way shape or form that they would compromise safety. I would therefore respectively request that you retract your statement as it is very damaging in itself.

To suggest the thread is disintegrating into waffle and personal attacks immediately following your personal attack on my own professional integrity is rich!

Please get back to the subject in hand, yes I am very sure there are people at BA who would love for this thread to be shut down and bannished from history. As stated earlier, a well known technique of Joseph Gorbels.

One thing, i fail to understand this from your post;


However if the pilots strike does go ahead, and given the current set up with Open Lies I think you're finished if you don't kill this stone dead


That really does not mke sense, so it's ok for the Pilots to kill BA stone dead with a strike (which incidently I fully support them) but wrong for me to voice an opinion about the current problems at BA? Come on, I'm not saying very much different than what's out there in the media, clearly BA as usual is leking like a sieve. You may well know of other forums which the media and others glean information from, including BA staff approaching the media directly with information.

What IMHO is going to kill the brand stone dead, as you say, is an arrogant and disconnected management team, check out the following article from Travel Weekly, on an HR point it states; LINK (http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/blogs/2008/03/its-the-people-stupid-hr-is-ce-1.html)


If anything should worry us in the long term, it's BA's apparent failure to get the 'people stuff' right.


And great some positive news, T5 going to full service on Saturday.... we wait and see.

[The Controlller]

All
Just a reminder who has to mop up the crap and try to keep the show on the road........OPS.......please please please remember that we are only the piggy in the middle. The abuse we have taken over the past week is unbelieveable ...this situ is NOT our doing so bear in mind we are humans too with family/school fees/mortages etc etc.
Maybe I need some TLC ? or a lagre GNT

[Skipness One Echo]

Sadly I'm not a pilot I'm SLF that's been on one or way too many VERY LATE BA flights of late. Coming back to every point made you disagree with adds little to the debate I'm afraid ! Let me clarify, if BA Open Skies takes off as is proposed, you will have the Jetstar scenario writ large. PLEASE use the search facility if you want to learn more on that but essentially it is a backdoor strategy to lower overall group Ts & Cs.

[pasoundman]

Llademos
BA have announced that a full T5 program will be flown on Saturday.

And you BELIEVE them ????? Do you think they can ever DELIVER ???

What does that say about the management that thought it was going to offer a better 'experience' from DAY ONE at T5 ?

Are they complete LOONIES or what ?

I actually agree with 'BAengineering' mostly. It's the responsibility of people who CARE not just to 'put up with it' but to press for CHANGE !

This style of management HAS TO GO ! That's all there is to it. It's killing the company. Platitudes mean nothing. This is SERIOUS ! The LOONIES *have to go * !

[pasoundman]

Skipness One Echo
... if BA Open Skies takes off as is proposed, you will have the Jetstar scenario writ large. PLEASE use the search facility if you want to learn more on that but essentially it is a backdoor strategy to lower overall group Ts & Cs.

Did anyone ever doubt that ?

It's entirely typical of the 'MBA culture' of reducing the conditions and pay of the people who actually do the work in order to reduce costs. Just how long do they think they can wring some more out of it ?

[pasoundman]

luoto
All I said was that BA is not performing particularly badly (following T5 decline) compared to the FTSE

But how is it performing as an AIRLINE ?

Even heard of the 'Golden Goose' ?

[BAengineering]

Yep PASoundman, nice postings. :D

And Skipness, I of course fully understand the problems with Openskies. I came to this site after I felt internal BA messages were aiming to alienate the Pilots group from within BA. That again is a technique used to very good effect during the nazi campaigns of Gorbels. I came to the site to express 'our' support for the pilot community. Since the T5 fiasco blewup I have decided to stay and provide an opinion to what has happened and what needs to be done to restore BA to it's former position.

I fully agree with you, whilst not understanding the sentence, that a Pilot strike will be the final nail in the coffin of BA. That I agree would be a very sad day. Yet, as detailed in my earlier post, I'm getting an uneasy feeling of 'purpose' to all this. First a Terminal disaster, WW then maintains his defiant stance toward pilots, this can only be an intentional effort to break BA up, IMHO.

[pasoundman]

BAengineering
I fully agree with you ..... that a Pilot strike will be the final nail in the coffin of BA.

Well actually.... right now a strike from ANY section of BA staff would kill the company. Stone Dead I reckon.

Seems to me like a remarkable opportunity to rid yourselves of the worthless WW and friends.

Basically you can put the company up as hostage until someone comes along and removes the LOONIES. Dare I be that bold ?

Yes, I'd expect WW and his cronies to put up a fight but frankly they've screwed up T5 so badly, who would want them any more ? They're dead men walking quite frankly.

[pacamack]

Why don't people try and answer the following questions to help them understand why BA's share price might be depressed before they start screaming about miss-management:

What is one of BA's biggest single costs?
What has been happening to this?

Which market segment provides most of BA's revenues?
What has been going on in the world that is likely to impact on this segment?
Is demand from this segment likely to increase or decrease in the near future?

What implications is the Open Skies agreement likely to have on BA's market position?

Are investors likely to know the answers to these questions?
Are investors likely to understand the implications of these answers?

[Tagron]

As an ex-BA employee of 30 years service I have to say I never expected for one moment that the transfer to T5 would be the triumph that BA proclaimed it would be, though I was unprepared for and shocked by the sheer magnitude of the operational and PR disaster that unfolded.

To reach this assessment one only has to look back over BA's operational performance over the last few years or even decades. Look at its ongoing LHR departure punctuality and baggage performance and how badly it compares with competitor airlines. How many flights get cancelled as soon as there is a whiff of difficulties ? And then there is the apparently unmeasurable and erratic nature of the LHR arrival experience.

From time to time it would appear some of these problems were on the way to resolution, only for the situation to deteriorate again. What conclusion does one draw from BA's long term operational performance ? I suggest it is that the integrity of the operational programme is not high enough in BA management's mindset. They have scant regard for passengers' reasonable expectations.

My experience is that the vast majority of the workforce do their utmost to keep the show on the road even when problems are plainly the result of poor planning and inadequate resources. And the customer contact staff have to bear the brunt of passengers' dissatisfaction. Small wonder that hatred of management is so ingrained in the workforce.

There were already plenty of former customers out there with horror stories to tell of BA reliability and who said "never again". Now as a result of the T5 debacle such sentiment is not just the view of individuals but part of the conventional wisdom of the nation. Even when T5 is sorted out - and I hope it happens swiftly - BA's performance will remain under scrutiny. Operational difficulties will be perceived as part of an ongoing disregard for the needs of its customers and highlighted, whether or not the fault of the airline. BA will be looked on as an an aerial British Rail. It will be the pre-privatisation days all over again.

So what is to be done ? Restoring confidence in operational integrity at LHR must be a top priority. LHR is a difficult airport because of its general congestion and its over-allocation of slots, but operations programmes must take LHR problems more fully into account and not rely on wishful thinking that everything will go as hoped. This will require more resources both of staff and equipment and more realistic scheduling of aircraft.

All this will have a cost of course and one can say goodbye to 10% margins - but these are almost certainly dead in the water now in any case.

If BA can change its ways then it has good prospects for the future. It needs to convince the travelling public that it is reliable, that passengers can travel as booked and that they and their baggage will arrive on time. It will only do that now on the back of demonstrated achieved performance. But if it does, it can use its PR machine not just as a mouthpiece for mindless froth and nauseating glossovers of failure, but to announce its real success with pride. Then you have a solid base for recovery of public confidence and, eventually, financial performance.

And the chances are....? The airline should be run by people who understand the customer service ethic and who understand aviation. I am far from convinced that BA top management fall into this category. Resolve this issue and maybe the other pieces will fall into place.

[Human Factor]

All very valid comments, Pacamack.

The interesting thing will be to see how comparable airlines (think Delta, AA, AF-KLM not EZ, RYR) have performed relative to their own markets over the same time. This will give an indication as to how the City views BA's internal troubles.

IMHO though, it's a wonder BA have any investors left and WW certainly isn't helping. In his favour though, I think he's now finally coming to understand that there is a whole wedge of people between him as CEO and your standard line manager who only got there by virtue of their inability to say "No" to anyone above them. Irrespective of whether WW stays or not, only when that tranche of management depart will BA start to improve and not until.:ugh:

[sidtheesexist]

Tagron - excellent post sir/madam - I commend it to the house! :ok:

You highlight the real issue - the fragility of the operation, mainly due to unrealistic scheduling and an under-resourcing in key areas. This operational fragility leads to numerous breakdowns with the end result of late AC and misdirected baggage etc. QED - unhappy CUSTOMERS.

Management need to be reminded of the whole raison d'etre of an airline and start prioritising accordingly. In fact, better still, let's have a clear out of the top mgmt echelons - they've proved their incompetence!

[luoto]

Recently popped up on my screen.

03/04/2008 02:23 PM UK British Airways sees T5 impact of 16 mln stg

BA noted also that "...the impact was borne by the shorthaul schedule, where there were 300 cancelled flights, equating to 0.2 percentage points of capacity," it said in a statement.

[groundhand]

Tagron,

A good post but you do have the air of someone who has worked within as you say and not the understanding of where avaition has moved to in the last 10-15 years.

You are 100% right in terms of customer experience.
The BA brand is damaged, severely damaged to the point of being the laughing stock of global aviation - easpecially in Europe.

You are right in terms of the gulf between the CEO and how services are delivered to the paying customer.

I disagree with you in your view that sort the customer experience out and everything else will fall into place.

One of BA's main problems is one of cost. Costs from:
Too many staff - YES, still too many for the size of airline - just look at Waterside!; the number of levels of staff in every facet of the operation etc.
Ancient work practices - just look at the crew/groundstaff/customer service staff T&C's against any well run and progressive aviation company. People say Alitalia is bad but get into the detail of BA and it is horrific, probably worse than both Alitalia and Air France.

BA employees, from the Chairman, CEO down to the front line men and women have to realise that they are not 'the world's favorite' any more; that no-one owes them a living and that unless they collectively move forward their prospects are very dicey.

Moving forward will take a lot of balls because every BA employee will have to look inwardly and ask themselves 'Am I delivering a better service more cost effectively than the competition?' The current answer is obvious.

Have the collective staff got the honesty, integrity and the will to ask the question and take responsibility for the changes needed?

I VERY much doubt it, certainly not from the recent history of employee relations.

Will WW survive? Not really relevant to the big picture.
Will BA survive long term? Now there is the $64,000 question.

GH

[BAengineering]

Tagron - Mighty fine post, whilst not normally wishing to be associated with someone by the title 'sidthesexist' I fully agree it was a fine piece of literature.

And that's the point, a well balanced and calm individual, who worked for BA for neigh 30 yrs (I beat you there matey i've hung in longer!) knows that;


hatred of management is so ingrained in the workforce.


They are forceful words from a reasonable man. Maybe something can be rescued from the current situation..... A clear out of management, senior and Middle, a cultural change allround, and lose the YES men and fear for persons speaking out. An open and transparent efficient culture.

Sh1t I glazed over then, went into my Utopian world when really I work for an employer who holds totalitarian persuasions. I will eat my hat if things change, and that is a tall order, have you seen those bumpcaps they expect us engineers to wear?

[Storminnorm]

I love to try to keep track of WTHIH? at BA at present.
I'm OLD and find it difficult to keep pace with the present
situation as it develops.
My fuddled brain has come up with the idea that SOME
of the people that subscribe to this present bun-fight
over the T5 shambles seem to think that the situation
vis a vis the cock-up is a manufactured situation to get
the Pilots concerned about what COULD happen to the
Company if they take action over the "Openlies" matter.
Could someone kindly reassure me that this is NOT so?:ooh:

[groundhand]

BA Eng

Or maybe it's a clearout of about 75%-85% of the 'core' workers as well as the management that's needed?

A phased role over, including out sourcing.

New people, new attitudes, new work practices...... utopia

And before you claim that I am a closet BA manager I can state that I have never been employed directly by BA; I have over 34 years in the business and have worked with BA on many occasions (and many other legacy and loco operators) on service delivery in various locations over the last 12 years or so.

GH

[BAengineering]

Groundhand - I'm all up for a clear out, nothing like a good fire in the undergrowth to encourgage new shoots!

But there is that little thing known as our contracts to sort out, oh at any rate much of what you say has already happened at BA. Outsourcing much of non essential services, developing 2 tiered contracts for the workforce. I.e. new recruits on far worse terms and conditions than existing staff. (a terrible inequality)

Just read a great article on the BA BRAND - LINK (http://www.utalkmarketing.com/pages/Article.aspx?ArticleID=4915&Title=BA_needs_to_take_action_to_save_brand%2c_say_experts) Some bloke called Kevin Murray a x - head of communications at BA (think brother of Ruby Murray). Article states how they think the BA brand could be damaged beyond repair.

But there may be enough 'goodwill in the tank' to see us through. So as some other posters have said, a strike by any unit at BA could see the end, we are gentlemen on the brink....... and with 2 sections of staff, the pilots and cabin crew rumbling away it looks ominous.

Doors to automatic!!!!!!!:ok:

[BAengineering]

StorminNormin - you are right, always.... What are you going on about or have I missed something in the excitement about the autobot plane?

Stormin - you changed your post, you naughty chap. No it's not dementure, I understand now, you are right that there is a thread going that suggests, along the lines of it could be a deliberate attempt to scupper BA, whilst they whistle through someother devious dealing. Usual smoke and mirrors cheap magician trick. Anyway the thread if nothing else keeps the conspirators happy..

[ornithopter]

Groundhand...

BA employees, from the Chairman, CEO down to the front line men and women have to realise that they are not 'the world's favorite' any more; that no-one owes them a living and that unless they collectively move forward their prospects are very dicey.

We do - that's why we are so upset that things are going so badly. Our punctuality has been awful in the past two years, our service well below what it should be. Despite some strengths, most people are upset with the state of the operation and its beyond their control. As a pilot, I can influence punctuality, but only in a negative sense. I can't make tugs appear or an aeroplane arrive on stand sooner if I am stuck waiting for one to arrive. Given that I'm always ready unless something gets in my way I feel that I am delivering a service that is worth the money. Unfortunately the airline as a whole is not. All of us play a part in that, but by doing my job well, along with almost all of my colleagues we can't make it any better. Other forces are required - this includes changing working practices and managing things better - and getting rid of people who are not needed. Unfortunately Willie came along with a giant axe and took bits off of every part of the operation, when in fact he should have added to some and taken away from others. Its a management issue rather than one of working practices, although they do play a part.

The management view of working practices is poorer than it ought to be, they single out the minority and extrapolate that to the the majority. Our cabin crew for instance, who are seen as inflexible (and some indeed are), often work right up to the maximum they are allowed to legally in longhaul. You can't get much more out of them than the legal max.... (and I don't mean union max).

A lot of airlines who seemingly have flexible crews often loose many (they get fed up) and use questionable practices. Like an airline who recently asked someone I know to fly two early sectors, position up the country and then fly two lates, calling the time in the taxi "rest" to allow the duty. That's just illegal and stupid and I for one am pleased we have union agreements to prevent that. Having seen both sides of the coin in BA and outside, I think the union agreements, at least for some groups of staff, help both the company and the staff.

What doesn't help is not seeing the woods for the trees, and Willie is doing just that. He can't see the incompetence of staff below him (including illegal deals) and can't see that investment is needed to prevent losses. BA says today that the T5 probs have cost £16million. Imagine if we spent half of that training staff and planning, we would still be 8m ahead, its just it wouldn't be seen like that, it would be seen as 8m wasted. We'd still have the same staff and the same working practices, but we'd have a working terminal and plenty to be proud of, and also we'd have a stronger bottom line and future.

[Storminnorm]

I've got the idea in my head that this thread has
put there.
I have a distinct feeling that the whole situation
has been skilfully manufactured in order to reduce
any will by the Pilots to go on strike over the Openlies
fiasco by giving them the idea that any further action.
Or should I say FUTURE action by them could put BA
in jeopardy:{
But thats not possible, I hope.
Willies not THAT bright, is he?

[BAengineering]

Ornithopter - Nice reply, you sound like a sensible chap, yet you too are irked by what has been going on for sometime now. T5 just became the tipping point that realised all that is wrong at BA.

But just imagine what £270 would of bought in staff and training support at BA. That was the cost of the price fixing scandal, od which Martin George and the other Clot Burns walked away not in shame, but with a nice golden handshake.

Cake for the upper echeleons and sh1t for those, very professional, coal face employees.

[BAengineering]

Stormin - It happen with the BA pension, a little distraction (cabin crew IR issues) whilst 2.1 billion was saved from the pension pot. Now that's something even Paul Daniels couldn't pull off, or Debbie MacGee for that matter.


But thats not possible, I hope. Willies not THAT bright, is he?


I think he's bright, no doubt.............. up for a fight, no doubt........ realises the pilots have the upper hand, no doubt...........

[Storminnorm]

Thanks, or should I say that?
You just reinforced my idea that this is a manufactured
situation to force the people that matter back into line!
I need more medication!
Must go and lie down now.:\
Hope I don't have nightmares about pilotless planes!:eek:

[Sunfish]

Groundhand:

Moving forward will take a lot of balls because every BA employee will have to look inwardly and ask themselves 'Am I delivering a better service more cost effectively than the competition?' The current answer is obvious.

Quite right Groundhand. The trouble is that the process has to be started from the top, and there would appear to be more than enough evidence that the Board and Senior Management can't and won't "walk the Talk" that goes with the sort of business transformation you are obviously talking about.....Perhaps if BA hired the CEO of Air New Zealand.....you know, the one that works on the check in and makes his senior executives load bags once a month so that they have an intimate understanding of the Customer experience.


....On second thoughts, that isn't going to work unless you get the Board to do likewise.

[BAengineering]

But Sunfish, he is humping the bags;

try; www.weewilliewalsh.co.uk (http://www.weewilliewalsh.co.uk)

What a laugh!!!!!! Kept us entertained in the 'restroom' no end:p

Website URL changed !!! spelt willie wrong, what a silly billy

[Re-Heat]

A clear out of management, senior and Middle, a cultural change allround, and lose the YES men and fear for persons speaking out. An open and transparent efficient culture.
If only...

[saintjoseph]

try this link
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=131554&in_page_id=34
enjoy!

[BAengineering]

Ahh Five bells you would be talking about the interTerminal Pool and darts championship. One runs on a 3 year rotation the other on a 4yr rotation. You've guessed it, the 12 yr cycle when they clash coincided with the opening of Terminal 5.

Wierdly last Thursday was the opening rounds of both contests, everyone has ago and gets involved so it's quite a busy day.. Stupid of management to plan their opening when there was so much else going on....

Oh the link to williewalshgame

www.weewilliewalsh.co.uk (http://www.weewilliewalsh.co.uk)

[BAengineering]

Para 1 - Price fixing June 07 failed that promise
Para 2 - Delivering promises to customers, what like flying them somewhere? Yep you got it, screwed that promise many times over the last few years. (hey but don't worry it was someone elses fault)
Para 3. Honest communications??? Working as one team ??? Respecting individual and collective rights - Nope don't see any of that good stuff
Para 4. Rail roading through a dodgy environmental report, pushing for a third runway, refusing to consult with local pressure groups. Yep you got it, not much commitment to that promise
Para 5. The environment - yeah with the greenpeace lot on the planes I don't think BA is very respected for being a green organisation, ref 3rd runway at LHR etc

Board has responsability, but clearly not the accountability that is usually attached to such a promise. Will someone please stand down over this.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2313/2385827602_2de75df1c5.jpg?v=0

[Capvermell]

Try the image search function on Google - Wee Willie never seems to smile. Instead he only ever likes to look seriously powerful and in control. Rod Ellington was regularly seen smiling as far as I can recall. This Sun photo is a typical Walsh image. http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00385/RSNF0866A_280_385915a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article439087.ece&h=390&w=280&sz=26&hl=en&start=128&tbnid=GeGHg-_AWp8qPM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522willie%2Bwalsh%2522%26start%3D126%26gbv%3D 2%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN

[L9172]

Thank you Two-Tone-Blue for your remarks about the relevance of my post number 1010. Unfortunately you appear to have been the only person who thought it merited a response because not one of the apparently knowledgeable people on the forum has offered me the desired reassurance, nor indeed even a plain statement that "You'll be lucky to get your suitcase back at all assuming you manage to get to LAX and back".

L9172

[BAengineering]

L9172 - you are not being ignored, I guess we just don't have the answer your looking for, sorry mate.

I personally wouldn't want to tell you to take the chance, to find it all went pear shaped for you on your trip. Innit as Two-tone-blue would say.

That's one of the issues with BA at the moment, why it has lost the trust of the customer base. If T5 was an isolated incident, it would be shameful, but not the end of the world. The problem is, and i thought this was the thread here, that there have been a succession of problems all that have let the passengers down.

Underlying all of this is an organisation which is defective to say the least.

[infrequentflyer789]

Why don't people try and answer the following questions to help them understand why BA's share price might be depressed before they start screaming about miss-management:


Those market issues are known and already priced into the shares. BAs hype on the wonderful improvements T5 would bring was priced in too - now it isn't.


Are investors likely to know the answers to these questions?
Are investors likely to understand the implications of these answers?

The investors are coming out of the woodwork now, see:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3670961.ece
- 4th para onwards.

When a major institutional shareholder makes comments like that in public, then the CEO of a PLC is in trouble.

[Sunfish]

From the various posts describing the management culture of BA, it would appear that its problems fit a reasonably well known business culture model involving successive layers managing "up" trying to get ahead. As a result their managing "down" is not very good at all.

......and of course if you see management in terms of "Up" and "Down" then that's part of the problem too. The inverted pyramid is a much better way of looking at things.

[Three Yellows]

it won't fix things but it would at least a little show that we actually care


That reminds me of a line a Flight Engineer on the 747 Classics used once,

"Other airlines care less, British Airways couldn't"



Priceless.

[ukeng]

Engineering cutbacks
Hey UKeng, are you able to shed any light on the question in 3Y's post. I think he's getting at the fact the visual side of the airline seems to be in shambles, what's life like in engineering? have you experienced the same level of cutbacks and pressure?

Yes we have experienced the same or worse levels of cutbacks - in particular we have lost a huge amount of experience to natural wastage and early retirement. These skills aren't being replaced with fresh blood and that does worry me.
At the moment levels of staffing in Engineering haven't dropped enough to affect safety but who knows what will happen as more of the older staff leave and numbers drop still further. T5 moving wasn't as much of a problem for engineering as it's the same aircraft in a different place.

[Three Yellows]

in particular we have lost a huge amount of experience to natural wastage and early retirement. These skills aren't being replaced with fresh blood and that does worry me.


That is sadly so true of every industry, profession and of course the dear old Health Service in the 21st Century UK plc.

Is that Tony or Gordon's fault I wonder, or does it go back to Maggie's days?

[Willie Wash]

That's good to know that safety isn't a problem at the moment, though from the sounds of your post sounds like you think your on a knife edge. When the pressures on its the slack you need to provide that essential support. Oh read a post on the net which says Willie has the support of the staff at BA. from my views of this and other airline sites, this seems very far from the truth.

[airfoilmod]

Perhaps it's just the Yank, but Free Speech guarantees the gummint won't muzzle your yap. This Forum is Private Property, owned by folks who most assuredly have the right to tune any one out they like. Back to slaggin the little weasel

[loobster]

I left BA cabin crew to train as a nurse 18 mths ago. I see many similarities in BA management as in NHS manangement.

There seems to be a lot of "graduate managers" ie people that have never met a pasenger/ patient yet are enabled to make huge decisions regarding their welfare. I am not against someone gaining a degree at uni and then progressing to a management position, but there is something to be said for someone "starting at the bottom" and working their way up.

I cared for a patient a few days ago who passed away. The bed manager sent the cleaners to clean his room within mins of his passing. Us nurses wanted to wait until all members of his family had been able to visit.(Some lived 2-3 hrs away) The cleaners waited outside ( with the rellys saying their goodbyes in the room) until I told them to leave. The bed manager who has a degree in media studies and an Msc in management had a huge go at me. She said that the relatives could say goodbye in the funeral home and that she needed the bed asap.

This lack of respect for the people that actually pay our wages is rife in BA too. As a purser on longhaul I often spent time calming down a pax that had been treated badly by BA. I often sent emails to relevant managers in my own time when I returned from flights to discuss the pax problems. In 13 yrs of working for BA, and 5 years as a purser I NEVER recieved a reply.

[loobster]

While I'm on a roll, T5 has been years in the making. Staff should have been recruited months ago and their training complete by now. Systems should have been checked and re checked, back up systems in place.

Having worked for BA I was sometimes surprised that a/c ever left the tarmac. The pilots and frontline generally are great ( if jaded by the constant apologies) The managers could not manage a drink in the proverbial brewery. As a purser glaringly obvious problems would be reported by myself flight after flight and nothing would be done about it.

In the current climate, I doubt that BA will survive another 20 years. The management system has to change and each manager witin BA has to become more accountable.

[Basil]

loobster,
Yes, heard the same comments from NHS acquaintances.
Thankfully, as a soldier, engineer, RAF officer and pilot most of my immediate managers have been close enough to the 'coal face' to know WTF was going on - with one or two notable and disastrous exceptions.
Some administrators are good - but when they're bad they can spoil your whole day.

However - I'll say it again - Never ascribe to malice that which can more easily be explained by stupidity.

[al446]

vanHorck, I agree about the effect on unions and management in the 80's but I am afraid that UKland is not ready for European approaches to workforce management, too much US influence.

To use your words " a workforce with a healthy long term future in BA" is maybe what you should have said and, without unions, the lower end of the food chain will not get. Oops, should have seen it before, 2 yrs working for Uitzendburos in A'dam.

It is not unions screwin BA up, try WW.

[FlightCosting]

Jim McAuslan BALPA writes in todays FT

Sir, Failings on the opening days of Heathrow Terminal 5 are symptomatic of British Airways’ loss of focus in delivering a sound operation. This airline can and should make Britain proud but a fundamental change of attitude is required from the very highest levels of BA management.The British Airline Pilots’ Association has for years pressed BA to focus on operational integrity – punctuality, baggage delivery and product quality. Get that right and the customers will keep coming back.

The problem with the “highest levels of BA Management” is the abysmal low level of capability and complete lack of experience.

When I started my career in aviation some 40 years ago, I was told that Aviation was one industry where there is no replacement for hands on experience. BOAC/BEA did sponsor employees to do a degree in Management but as a sandwich course where the pie in the sky ideas of lecturers where tempered by the realities they experienced whilst on the ground. The result was well balanced staff who had both aviation and management skills. What has happened since those long forgotten days is that people have been promoted beyond their capability and realising the fact they have moved to safeguard their position by ensuring that anybody that they employ has less capability than they have. The result is an ever decreasing level of management capability with BA management. The really capable people have been held back and in most cases have left to work for other airlines who appreciate their professionalism. Some poor souls stick it out and remain the lone voices crying in the wilderness. Britain has made a big contribution to aviation. there are many expats working in the industry all over the world making a positive contribution.

I wonder how many of the current BA management would be head hunted by other companies for their capability and experience.

[Roobarb]

http://www.cbsbutler.com/uploadimages/Loudhailer.jpg

http://www.zanarkand.co.uk/ww/31.PNG
I'll take on the opposition tomorrow. Today it's my management's turn

[Willie Wash]

Roobarb, maybe if I step out on to my Waterworld balcony I can use such a device to deliver my commandments to T5 staff. Like 'get on with it you lazy BEEP's'

Wonderful ingenuity, you must work for our product development team or engineering. Come to my office today and we'll discuss your management style and maybe have a latte down in the street.

ANytime will do as I don't expect much on today as we've cancelled a shed load of the operation, hey look what a great excuse the 'wrong kinda snow is'.. The wrong kind because we could of done with a months worth to see us through the move!

[Re-Heat]

There seems to be a lot of "graduate managers" ie people that have never met a pasenger/ patient yet are enabled to make huge decisions regarding their welfare. I am not against someone gaining a degree at uni and then progressing to a management position, but there is something to be said for someone "starting at the bottom" and working their way up.
Loobster - you obviously have not yet seen how terrible ex-nurse managers are then!

[biddedout]

An open letter from BALPA:ok:

http://www.balpa.org.uk/Media---Pr/Open%20Letter.htm

[Eboy]

From the BALPA letter . . .

Banks, institutional investors and analysts need to wake up to the fact that there is something very wrong right at the heart of this company that is making our once great brand a laughing stock.

This is exactly where the focus should be, on the stockholders. Only they have the power to force real change. Why are the stockholders tolerating a ride toward an all-time low stock price?

Who are BA's major stockholders?

[vanHorck]

impressive open letter from the core of BA (pilots) to the investors.... hope the letter makes all the headlines....

[exeng]

Interesting open letter from BALPA and it reads to me like the fight is really on now, and it looks like it is going to be very messy.

BA management have played straight into the Pilots hands and will pay dearly for their mistakes, sadly some of the innocent will also pay.


Regards
Exeng

[markrl]

It’s very sad as an outsider to watch British Airways slowly tear itself apart led by some truly terrible management and riven by internal rivalries and demarcation disputes. BA appears to have caught a very bad bout of what used to be called the “British disease". The present situation is very reminiscent of British Leyland in the 1970's at its worst and the outcome unless this situation is sorted out quickly will be precisely the same. No more British motor industry, no more national airline carrier. The comparisons between the two looks alarmingly similar just replace Willie Walsh with Michael Edwards. You really would have to be a fool or a total masochist to book an airline ticket with BA in its current chaotic state when there are so many excellent alternatives. As many airline tickets are booked well in advance it may be a few months yet before the markets punishment of BA really starts to painfully kick in. Somehow I can’t see the Government being terribly sympathetic to a bail out when Willie Walsh starts running out of cash even if the EU would allow it (check out Alitalia). The final straw may well be the forthcoming pilot’s strike which BA management have clearly done their best to provoke. What a mess and national disgrace. :confused:

[Viewfrom5Bells]

.............?

[Viewfrom5Bells]

,who instigated the Pensions Review, on CNBC a couple of weeks ago being congratulated on rescuing the Dutch supermarket group Ahold from the bankruptcy it was teetering on when he joined.

[overstress]

markrl: Welcome to PPRuNe, but sorry, but you seem to have completely lost the plot with your opening posting. Even by stretching my imagination to the limit, I can't see that comparing BA plc today with BL in the 1970's is valid.

BA makes large amounts of money despite the management-induced cockups. The workforce cannot be compared with BL.

[greatwhitehunter]

Markri,
there are no demarcation disputes at BA the unions are far too weak for that. That we have managed to function at all is a tribute to the commitment of our very dedicated staff. We are under no illusions as to the commercial position of our company and all wish both to see it prosper and to share in that prosperity. The staff here know we can give world class service if the management let us! In no way is our position comparable to british Leyland.

[Feline]

Markrl's post certainly stirs a chord with me: having "flown the flag" as SLF since the days when the branding was BEA or BOAC, I well remember that settling down in my seat in some far flung (or near flung) place made me feel that I was already back in England.
Maybe the analogy to BL is pushing it a bit far - BL had, as I recall, a far more militant labour force - whereas BA suffers more from problems at the other end - management which is totally and utterly out of touch with the realities of the coal face.
I sense that there are people within BA who are still, despite everything, doing their utmost to make it happen. But above them are layers of management who simply don't have the competence to support the people who make it actually happen. And there is a layer of people right down at the coalface, where the airline meets the customer, who haven't got the training, the competence, or the experience and maturity to make the difference.
What needs to happen is that top management needs move on, to make way for some new top management who have the guts and vision to do what is necessary to make middle management shape up or ship out.
The people at the coal face need the support and encouragement of the people above them - they need to led by example, they need to be trained to be better than the competition.
And the whole organisation needs to take note of what has happened to Jaguar and Land Rover ... Not saying that that's a good thing or a bad thing - but I'm not sure that's what BA needs ...

[overstress]

Being taken over by Tata? :8

[Feline]

Overstress - you said it not me!

[FlyingTom]

If you walk through BA HQ, Waterwold, in uniform or displaying an airside pass you become concious of hundreds of aggressive eyes peering at you from behind capuccinos with the question "what's he doing here"?

BA has so many support staff it is almost impossible for it not to be the best airline on Earth. However these poor souls have been fighting their own rear-gaurd action for the past few years. Indeed in the run up to T5 they have been very focussed on re-applying for their own jobs in a game of pass the parcel musical chairs.

BA is top-down rather than bottom-up and as a result customer service is a**** about **t. There is no way the front line, customer facing, staff should want for anything, the reality is the opposite.

As you leave Waterworld you can hear the front door re-allignment committee discussing how to move the main entrance to the north side, away from the noisy airport.

[Willie Wash]

Flyingtom - I think you are one paranoid pilot, those aggressive eyes your refering to are 'Jealous eyes'. THe reason, you have a real skill, a real job and real comradeship and support from your colleagues.They lead their boring little office lives, the odd coffee being their most exciting bit of the day.THe pampered pooches at Waterworld are not as essential as our pilot, engineer, customer service, despatchers, ground ops personnel who you really need to get a flight away on time.I could tell you a thing or two about waterworld, I have many good examples of antics and just sheer waste. I'm sorry I won't be able to post as people are watching!!!

[spacedog]

At the moment 99pc of the staff are all still trying to sort out the shambolic mess that T5 is. The ramp staff are working as hard as I have ever seem them. Most of the ramp staff are worried that this is their last chance, if T5 does not work with them, they could be sold off (contracted off) to another company.
The vast majority of staff are 100pc behind BA and want it to work all they require is a managment team to provide them with the correct equipment and enough bodies to do the job. believe me without the support/goodwill of the staff this T5 opening would have been an even bigger disaster. Willie Walsh's Management team have a lot to answer for.

[markrl]

Thanks for the welcome to the forum, my comparison with British Leyland may have been rather harsh but to people outside BA i.e. the customers this is the way its beginning to look and I worry that BA may well soon find itself fighting for its very life, particularly if this now escalates into a series of pilots strikes. The damage to reputation very quickly lost will be very difficult to restore. Once you become a music hall joke in the minds of the public as happened at dear old BL no amount of expensive advertising will be able to reverse the damage. Let’s face it the ongoing lost luggage fiasco is certainly helping that along. When you have pilots making announcements to passengers to the effect that the company is crap and that they are ashamed to be working for BA (maybe words not quite that strong but we here what you say and certainly get the message) can you really blame people for taking the ABBA route (Anything But British Airways). What has been so bewildering is the sudden descent from what was clearly one of the world’s best airlines only a few years ago into the chaos we have at the moment. To be fair BA is also having an extraordinary run of bad luck just to prove the old adage that it doesn’t just rains it pours. I can not however understand how given recent events Willie Walsh is still in post, nobody at the top seems to be taking any kind of responsibility. I suppose the real worry is your shareholders will loose confidence and sell out to the first would be buyer who will be interested in BA only for its valuable routes. I accept that from the inside things may look different and not so bad but speaking as an outsider it looks worrying, and I’m sure in your hearts you must all be feeling some sense of danger with the way things are moving. Ultimately BA needs its customers far more then its customer’s need BA, the world after all is not short of airlines and your customers will start voting with their feet.

[Skipness One Echo]

"Willie Walsh". there's a lot of truth in what you say, however there needs to be a realisation that without a large number of analysts, marketeers and professionals, the only thing you'll be flying around the world is fresh air. There's a lot of bright hard working people burning the midnight oil trying to keep BA ahead of the competition. Stop bitching at people because you often don't understand what they do. It takes a varied and large team to run a 24/7 21st century people business. HOWEVER, a lot of these guys have been let down by the top too, for their efforts are often misdirected and bad ideas get through with good intentions because as we have siad middle management is missing the front line aviation experience. Don't tar all the white collar guys at Waterside with the same brush. It's becoming snidey and if you go too far down that path, pitting one part of the business hard against the other, you're screwed.
It's looking like make or break for BA now. You might have a working new Terminal and a new CEO by Christmas, or you might be losing millions in a strike so the real Wee Willie can screw your Ts & Cs through Jetstar II aka Open Skies. I won't be flying with BA until the dust settles. I hope you hold it together and remember it's the guys at the top that you should be aiming at ......

[FlyingTom]

WW

All my finest irony was wasted on you :{

Skipness.

Add huge number of case lawyers to that list!

[Megaton]

Does anyone remember the award presented to the chap last year from Waterside for his work on punctuality? You couldn't make it up. We were running hours late every and management were back-slapping for their work on how they'd improved our time-keeping.

As for those fatuous, condescending, irritating, pointless little reminders to "swipe on time." :yuk::=:mad:

[slip and turn]

greatwhitehunter, it doesn't require a union to create a demarcation issue. PP management allows stilted informal powerbases to be created at quite junior levels, especially in complex technical areas such as IT who notoriously work to the narrow rule of the specification and who rarely are properly motivated to be interested in the purpose or success of the overall project. You end up with the typical management dilemma of 'can't live with them / can't live without them' and then the weak management conclusion 'better live with them' and all that ensues.

[Sunfish]

Slippy:

You end up with the typical management dilemma of 'can't live with them / can't live without them' and then the weak management conclusion 'better live with them' and all that ensues.

Oh dear! I didn't think it was that bad.

[herbaceous]

I dont work for BA and prob never will. I guess all companies suffer from some form of internal politics but I think I it points to a pretty unpleasant working environment when I see a man every morning on my bus, in full BA uniform (not pilot or customer facing I might add, engineering of some sort) drinking a can of beer on the way to work!!!
Cant blame him really.

[slip and turn]

No-one drinks beer on the way to work unless they have an alcohol problem.

So if your story is true, herbaceous, then he must be reported to BA. No one airside or working on aircraft is permitted to be under the influence for very obvious reasons.

Live and let live just doesn't cut it in such an instance.

[Tandemrotor]

markri

Your comparison with BL is entirely appropriate. I recently flew out of T5 with a colleague who had originally started his working life at Austin Rover. He said there were indeed some stark similarities between then and now!

My problem is, that there is precious little I can do to halt the (terminal?) decline of this once proud company. All I can achieve is to do my very best for our paying customers IN SPITE of the incompetence with which I am 'managed'!

As far as our strike is concerned, I believe I am faced with 'Hobson's choice'. I do not want to strike. (there hasn't been a pilot's strike in 30 years, AND BALPA have a track record of finding 'partnership' solutions) Nobody can seriously accuse BALPA of militancy!

However, I personally am prepared to pull the roof in over Open Skies (the airline) I believe my future will in any case lie elsewhere if I do not resist! There WILL be casualties, and I am absolutely prepared to accept that could include me.

Does that make me a 'dinosaur' from another era?

Anyone who thinks it does, just needs to explain to me what else I can do.

Other than just bend over and take it of course, which isn't for me I'm afraid!

[greatwhitehunter]

Slip and Turn,
I agree that you don't have to have a union for a demarcation dispute and I agree with your comments.The point about the union being weak is that front line staff have no protection whatsoever against poor management. Its always an individual or a small group standing up for whats right and believe me it's always a case of people pi##ing in the wind. I was provoked by the comparison to BL. Yes BA has it's problems but its not the with the boys and girls at the front.

[Filler Dent]

I've worked at both Heathrow and Gatwick as a line engineer for 23 years, the place on the whole is pretty shambolic, run by dozens of management grade personell, with their own "targets" (KPIs) to reach for completely meaningless and useless tasks which just frustrated the front line man. (or woman).

My day tends to run like this, raising ADDs because no spares are available, unable to do a job because the solitary 1/2" drive torque wrench has been sent for calibration (and no one thought of getting another one in), laughing at the stock level of basic items, managements complete lack of authority on a generally unmotivated workforce. The list goes on..:ugh:

Over the past 2 years, we've lost many experienced and highly qualified engineers to our competitors here at Gatwick, and the management just don't care - in fact they are actively encouraging it.

So Tandemrotor "don't just bend over and take it", we've done that in Engineering for years and look at where we are at now. Totally :mad:!!!

[Right Engine]

The comment earlier about 'the stares' in Waterside are not made up.

We have a lovely Health Centre in Waterside where I get my Class I medical renewed. If I dare to walk into the depths of our head office in uniform and get myself a coffee, I am often surprised at how many eyes are drilling into my skull. There has been a malevolent animosity from the Waterside residents for many years now. Most of this ingrained prejudice comes from urban myths about pilots T's and C's which quite frankly are way off the mark. I have had the pleasure of dinner with one or two Watersiders and it always amazed me what they had been led to believe by the 'rumours' that abounded in their Canteen.

I wonder whether the disassociative location of Waterside has led to the way BA is now. Even Flight Operations (pilots - not cabin crew) are managed from Waterside. Feedback of an essential but non-safety related nature has no route from pilots back to managers at this moment (FCR's?). It has been that way since 2002. Pilots are famous for having the audacity to share their opinions ( ;) ) but in BA, we have been gagged. There are, amongst our community, some very able minds, who have the ability to see problems before they arise but BA chose to ignore this rich seam of expertise to their peril. This principle has no doubt been applied through ALL departments.

Genuine receipt of Employee feedback and acting upon it, will take resources. If BA could learn one thing, they should learn to respond with the phrase "Here's a list of numbers. Get calling and report back to me when you have any results. I will pass on your report to the rest of the team when you give it me". Instead we get one of the following responses Your question ignored as they are too complex or sensitive Patronised or on occasions Vilified

BA need a change at the top because in its current form Willy uses the above methods on The Press and the The Senior Management (Kirkwoods face on the opening day would attest to that!)

BA needs to attract managers that see collaborative employee behaviour as an asset that could be nurtured, not, as it is now, something to be eradicated.

[M.Mouse]

I dont work for BA and prob never will. I guess all companies suffer from some form of internal politics but I think I it points to a pretty unpleasant working environment when I see a man every morning on my bus, in full BA uniform (not pilot or customer facing I might add, engineering of some sort) drinking a can of beer on the way to work!!!
Cant blame him really.

Drinking in any BA uniform is strictly forbidden. The person you refer to has an alcohol problem. BA, for all its faults, has a very good program for helping people suffering from alcoholism.

If you are able to supply a name to me privately I will see that he receives the help he needs.

[kilwhang]

I retired from BA five years ago and have the utmost sympathy for the hassle that the folks at the 'coalface' are going through, because of the incompetence of the so-called management.

I offer you this, in the hope that it gives some light relief:

Heard on Radio 5Live this morning............'In some quarters, T5 is now known as 'Hotel California'.............(you can check-in any time you want - but you can never leave.)'

What on earth has happened to the company I was so proud to work for?

[vanHorck]

Brilliant! lets call it Hotel California, that ll help BA.....

[Kurtz]

overstress said - Being taken over by Tata? .:8

For Tata, read Open Skies. Interesting also to see my old pal Tandem suggesting that BA is in terminal decline but that he'll pull the roof in anyway. I seem to remember he said something similar about maintaining the Pension Scheme.....
(I'm very surprise the regulator doesn't pick up on the shambolic state of the maintenance as alleged by Filler Dent.)

Great post by markl again, I rather think that BA has already become a music hall joke - the BALPA problem is trying to drum up public sympathy for people with six figure salaries - it just doesn't work. Doubtless some on here will say that public support is not needed, doubtless some will think that the letter to the City will work. The City will only change its view when profits are seriously affected on a future basis, and BALPA have a habit of caving to management and calling it a win. True, a genuine strike, (if legal??:bored:), (if fully supported;)), would certainly concentrate the minds, but by then it would effectively be too late, because the damage that would do to the perception of the fare paying public would be truly gargantuan!!!! The other problem of course is that having a six figure salary is all very well, but it tends to involve a similarly matched mortgage and/or alimony payments, school fees, the loan on the Porsche, etc etc. The strike fund won't cover much of those.....

Dead interesting to watch though, I have zero symapthy for Walsh having seen BA destroy my last but one employer. Trouble is, I have negligible sympathy for BA pilots either, having watched them prioritise narrow self interest against fellow professional aviators in the same Company ownership. In Shakespearian terms, they deserve each other - a plague on both your houses! :ok: I imagine shares in Bmi etc will be looking good whatever happens....hopefully OS will end up being publicly quoted too.:hmm:

[M.Mouse]

Always good to read a post from a balanced individual - in this case a chip on both shoulders.

What a cliche to imply that all BA pilots are on six figure salaries.

Thanks for your erudite(sic) contribution.

[Dysag]

I've read a number of your posts, and I respect your inside knowledge and your opinions. So please tell me what's wrong with this:

BA management is totally useless + Heathrow is opening more to quality competition = BA is doomed to disappear in the next 10 years.

Other airlines, with other T's & C's, will fill the void. The young pilots will more and more think of their future as being outside of BA, not within it.

[exeng]

You seem a somewhat bitter fellow for some reason as yet unexplained. I don't work for BA but I can see the possibility that if those at the top of the foodchain maintain their positions then there is a better chance that I might maintain my own somewhat lower position.

In terms of the strike fund - just how long do you think it will take before the large institutional investors have a complete sense of humour failure. I note the share price has roughly halved since May last year and it may also be worth noting that it has more or less steadily declined. Now I readily accept that generally shares have had a rough time but they haven't all steadily decreased at the rate of BA's. I'm no expert but I would imagine that a 2 week strike say will cause real damage to BA shares and make todays price look enormous.

Now WW has already taken a big gamble with T5 and lost, (granted he was taking a gamble with other people's cash - i.e. the shareholders) but do you really think those same shareholders are going to let him have another go?

I predict that WW and a significant portion of the leadership team will be walking into the sunset within 6 months at the outside. They will of course be well rewarded for their utter failure as is the British way, but walk they will and then there is a chance that BA can again become the airline icon that it once was. If I am wrong and WW and his team remain then the future looks bleak indead for shareholders and the staff.


I wish the BA Pilots and indeed all BA staff the very best for the future.


Regards
Exeng

[JazzyKex]

Where is MY six figure salary?

Are you senior guys and gals keeping it all for yourselves?

I love learning more about the company I work for from the well informed masses...sorry individuals. Enlightening stuff.

I suppose I should just stay quiet and watch my future disintegrate at the hands of an incompetent 'leadership team' rather than voice my concerns legally through my union.

Any other suggestions on how to procede Kurtz or do you prefer to bend over and pass back the KY? :O

[Charizard]

I'm with Dysag, and I'm bl00dy glad I'm not on the stage with the BA guys. The question is, which organ grinder is conducting the orchestra!

Walsh? or McAuslan?

I suspect either/both will have nothing to lose, unlike the PBI.

[overstress]

Kurtz: the 6-figure salary bit was very funny. I almost smiled - are you going to make up the difference from my take-home to the figure you mentioned?

[Megaton]

Six figures? There aren't enough hours in the year for me to earn that sort of money.

[M.Mouse]

BA management is totally useless + Heathrow is opening more to quality competition = BA is doomed to disappear in the next 10 years.

When BA was a nationalised industry it had a deserved reputation for being an appalling airline in every respect. In the late 80s, when I was working for another U.K. airline, BA started to advertise for direct entry pilots and a pal encouraged me to apply. I did so with only half a mind to actually wanting to join, at the time I was content where I was.

I positioned (with BA) down to the LHR recruitment centre several times for the various stages of the interview process. As things progressed and I observed BA staff from a passenger perspective and spoke to several as well I was struck how enthusiastic everybody was and, don't laugh, what a pleasure flying with BA was on the three occasions I did so. I ended up really wanting to join them. I felt very lucky to be offered a job.

In the late 80s/early 90s the job was a joy. The airline functioned well, I believe we enjoyed a reputation for being reliable and efficient and actually deserved the advertising epithet 'The world's favourite airline'. Somewhere it all slowly unravelled. The world was changing and BA's cost base and legendary overmanning had to be tackled but like so many bloated organisations (NHS anybody?) removing the deadwood which needed removing in my simple view was akin to asking turkeys to vote for Christmas.

The savage (and necessary) cost cutting, from my simple observations, has disproportionately fallen on the very areas which have the most impact on the ability of the airline to function efficiently i.e. the front line.

Slowly but surely we have become a standing joke for punctuality, lost baggage, lack of ground staff, etc, etc. This has been capped by the continuing debacle of T5. I cannot tell you how desparately sad and depressed it makes me and many of my colleagues when we think about the sorry mess which BA has become.

Militant unions can indeed share some of the blame but we had militant unions during privatisation. The difference between then and now is the quality of the people at the very top. With the exception of Rod Eddington we have suffered at the hands of two CEOs who have/had nowhere near the skills exhibited by the likes of Sir Colin Marshall or Lord King.

Under the right leadership I hope and pray that BA can once again become the leading airline that we surely were in the recent past. I do not believe it will happen while we have WW at the helm. The effort required to salvage our tattered reputation and win back the justifiably angry and disillusioned long suffering passengers is gargantuan but we do have many people such as myself who will go to the ends of the earth to achieve that goal. We cannot do it alone without strong and visionary leadership.

I am near the end of my career but I stand to lose much of my projected pension should BA fold (late joiner with less than 25 years in the still very much underfunded pension scheme).

Your statement will be sadly true if we do not get our act together, and quickly.

Other airlines, with other T & Cs, will fill the void. The young pilots will more and more think of their future as being outside of BA, not within it.

I cannot argue with that. Regarding Ts and Cs I believe it will just accelerate the headlong rush to the bottom. Given the lifestyle and Ts and Cs enjoyed? by some of my friends in other airlines I doubt I would follow the same career path if I had my time again. While BA survives with Ts and Cs well above comparable jobs, certainly in the UK, that downward slide will be slower than if we did not exist.

[Charizard]

That's actually an exceptionally good post. Doesn't it make you depressed to see what BA management have done to their staff. You really couldn't make this up - on a personal note Mr Mouse, may I wish you and your colleagues the very best of luck. :D
I worked for an airline once where I despised the management, and I know how I felt as I saw them destroy morale, hope, ambition - the managers were all BA placemen or BA wannabees. Given though that turkeys don't vote for Christmas, I just cannot see how you can clean ship and recover the situation - still, I suppose it's better to go with a bang than a whimper.

[Sunfish]

Skipness One Echo:

"Willie Walsh". there's a lot of truth in what you say, however there needs to be a realisation that without a large number of analysts, marketeers and professionals, the only thing you'll be flying around the world is fresh air. There's a lot of bright hard working people burning the midnight oil trying to keep BA ahead of the competition. Stop bitching at people because you often don't understand what they do. It takes a varied and large team to run a 24/7 21st century people business.

I don't work for BA, but I've held a quite a wide variety of senior management roles, and started as professional engineer in an airline.

Skippy, sorry mate, you've got it bass ackwards.

I'd like to introduce you to the "reverse pyramid" theory of management and also the concept of time horizons.

For your airline to succeed, it not only has to win new customers, it has to retain its existing customers. So having bright young things dreaming up new marketing campaigns, complete with operatic themes, is no bloody use if the product you are selling stinks to high heaven and your customers disembark thinking "never again". Arguably this is where BA, and quite a few other airlines are right now.

Now what is this "product"? The answer is that its the complete experience of the airline from the moment you book via phone or internet to the time you leave the terminal at your destination.

Who delivers the product? The answer is it's delivered by the entire organisation - so the jobs of your consultants, backroom staff etc. are safe.

Now I'd like to introduce the concept of time horizons. The people at the coalface, Cabin crew, pilots, operations, engineers, check in staff can instantly, and I mean microseconds, destroy the customers experience of BA permanently. All it takes is a scowl, or a rebuke, or just plain rudeness, or not getting a window seat, or losing bags, a dirty aircraft, or a spilled cup of coffee, a late aircraft, not getting the right meal and so on.

It's the people at the coalface who deliver your product - they are your reputation and they generate your repeat business. The time horizon of the effects on your reputation are minutes and hours.

Now lets look at middle management. You deliver a marketing campaign - six months to build it and another six months to measure its results - time horizon one year. You develop a better training program for cabin crew - time before results are measurable - say two years. You agonise over a new aircraft type - time horizon at least four years before results are seen. You get my drift?

And at the top, senior management should be making decisions that have ten year to fifteen year time horizons.

So what do we do? We "incentivise" managers with annual bonuses and encourage short term thinking by people who should be thinking long term. Then we irritate, abuse, and ignore the people who deliver the product, and who are the most accurate source of day to day information on product delivery. That's not very smart.

Now let me introduce the concept of the inverted pyramid. The CEO is actually at the point of the pyramid, but the pyramid is upside down. The CEO's job is to make sure that the people in the management roles that report to him can succeed at what they are doing.

And so it goes up the pyramid, your managers job is to make sure that the people that report to him can succeed in their tasks, and so on and so on.

If you are at the coalface, and however hard you try you can't succeed in delivering a quality product, then it is the fault of your management. It is perfectly evident from the postings here about BA management, that they do not embrace this concept, and until they do, your airline is at risk, because how ever hard you market yourselves, you are not going to get repeat business, no matter what loyalty schemes they are now dreaming up.


You got this way for reasons I've posted about on the BA/BALPA lawsuit thread. Nothing will change until the Chairman of the Board is replaced. I mean, why would an institutional investor allow someone with a tobacco industry background anywhere near a people oriented business? That is the crux of the problem because it influences the selection process for the CEO and so on down the management tree.

As for Waterside, sell it, you are going to need the money. Put your administration as close to Heathrow as you can so that your management and back office staff can actually see whats going on first hand.

[Willie Wash]

No quips nor windups (sorry Sallyanne1234, and the spelling war!?) Sunfish, you have great insight, our post describes BA to the tee. Bravo, best post i've seen on here.WW

[Ken Wells]

When Ryanair buy you then you'll really have something to moan about!

[Sallyann1234]

No quips nor windups (sorry Sallyanne1234, and the spelling war!?) Sunfish, you have great insight, our post describes BA to the tee. Bravo, best post i've seen on here.WW

WW
Your previous incarnations as BAe and News24 were offensive. It seems the mods have now given you some rope. Don't hang yourself with it.

[Rightbase]

Sunfish - spot on. I hope the whole of BA sees your post and reflects on it - starting at the very top.

[Willie Wash]

Hey Sally, relax, whether you like it or not our views are not so dissimilar. Now back to the thread, all of you who dislike the WeeWillie and feel he should resign, you can now bet on his demise! Check out http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=THE+INSIDE+TRACK-qqqs=mediaandmarketing-qqqid=31811-qqqx=1.asp

[HZ123]

Sunfish; AKA Rod Eddington why did you adopt these ideas when you were in charge. Shame to say i do not recall you doing much to resolve the numerous issues that existed. It is depressing that so many of you clearly ID the problems. It is also not correct to slap such paudits on the shoulders of LK and LM, do not forget that they enjoyed a free hand and a bottomless pit of monies to make the temporary fixes. As a result we are still in anaweful mess with the loaders playing games and when they finish the flight crew will start. The BA staff moto Overtime / Overseas or Off.

[Sunfish]

Sorry mate, I'm not rocket Rod, and if you knew my background, you would know that the name makes me want to vomit.

[skua]

Most successful consumer-facing organisations under-promise and over-deliver; BA has been guilty for a long time of over-promising and under-delivering. The T5 debacle is just the most recent and most abhorrent example of that.

Mind you, I spent Monday behind the scenes at T5, and there is scope for BA and BAA to turn buck-passing into an Olympic sport....

[Rotors]

'Sorry mate, I'm not rocket Rod, and if you knew my background, you would know that the name makes me want to vomit'

Sunfish, that was a pity; you spoiled your previous erudite post with this.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Sorry Rotors, do some research on Sunfish and you'll find a proud and enjoyable former life at Ansett Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansett) and then research Rod's involvement in that sad tale......

UTR

[Fox One]

Some really interesting posts on here, a situation not dissimilar to the present BA debacle in terms of the position some employee groups are taking. I wonder if the result wil be the same?

First I’d like to say that the pilots are a very important element to the airline industry. The pilots do a wonderful job and they have flown millions of passengers to their destinations over the years. They have a hard job and they deserve to get paid well for the hard work they do. Pilots are not the only ones that do hard work in the airline industry. Remember the hard work that the flight attendants, reservation agents and all other workers do. Everyone should simply feel good that they have a job and not worry about what kind of plane they fly and if they fly coast to coast or to Europe. The pilots need to think of Delta as their family and join together rather than to be selfish and money, power hungry. Delta once printed in a newspaper article how much better they were than AirTran Airlines. Their quote was on a given day a Delta business traveler would be at the gate in a suit and the AirTran passenger was in jeans. Those blue jean flyers are keeping AirTran in business. That type of attitude is the one that is keeping Delta from merging. Let the pilots keep the mergers from happening and the pilots may be out of work driving around a car rather than a plane.

Comment by Mark Krammer MD - April 8, 2008 at 5:42 pm

and:

So, pilots should be paid what they “deserve”? Did you make sure those strawberries you ate were picked by someone who was paid what they deserved? Are the shoes you’re wearing made by someone paid what they deserved? Was your lawn mowed by someone paid what they deserved?
BEWARE: When someone starts arguing they DESERVE to be paid more, you can be sure what they really mean is MORE THAN THE MARKET WOULD PAY. That’s why pilots love to whine about management but won’t pool their money to actually buy and run an airline (and BECOME management) — they know that being a business owner is incompatible with also being an employee who seeks to extort above market wages from that business.

Comment by Groucho - April 8, 2008 at 6:38 pm

Says it better than I could - I think the BA pilots are "living in interesting times!" :suspect:

[Human Factor]

I don't recall any of us at BA talking about deserving to be paid more. What I object to is being forever told that I deserve to be paid less.

It all comes back to a management whose reward is based partially upon a "margin" and partially upon the success of their own department. This results in problems being shipped sideways with no-one prepared to come up with a solution and risk their departmental bonus. This leaves the "margin", which can then only be met by cost-cutting and who are the easiest targets? Those who take it without a fight.

BA needs fundamental changes to ensure that those in management take the long-term view rather than the current short-termist silo mentality. This will require bold leadership (and a chairman who knows something about airlines who is prepared to recruit a CEO with vision) from someone who is prepared to be ruthless with the middle tiers and the wastage, not scrimp and scrape pitiful savings from the frontline where the (remaining) customers will suffer and where there is nothing left to give.

[Hotel Mode]

Same post 2 different threads. and only 17 postings in total.

Must be dull in Uzbekistan.

[Basil]

This (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/09/business/09cnd-air.html?hp) makes a few delayed and cancelled departures pale into insignificance.

. . and then there's the United B777 problem.

[Sunfish]

Basil:

This makes a few delayed and cancelled departures pale into insignificance.

. . and then there's the United B777 problem.

Not so. What BA/BAA T5, and United, and AA, and the FAA troubles at Southwest, and the Oasis bankruptcy, the Ryanair share price, the pilot shortage, and other such incidents are telling the world in my opinion, is that management everywhere has cut too deep and is selling their product too cheap.

I am merely a private pilot, but I have no illusions about the workload, decision making skills and responsibility required by heavy jet pilots, and the constant management mantra about labour costs is pure bolleaux.

Raise prices. Add service. Stop transporting Chavs to places they don't have the brains to appreciate at prices that are less than the FULL COST of whats' being provided without cross subsidies. To do otherwise, relying on marginal costing, has always been a recipe for disaster in any and every industry it's been tried.

The Ryanair model of giving the flight away and charging for food and water etc. is not sustainable, and never has been.

[swedish]

Never heard so much rubbish...

Raise prices- do you have any idea how price sensitive the market is? I travel C class LH every week and BA is the most expensive so I don't use them. LH, AF, KLM are lower so thats what I use.

Add service - BA already has the highest service levels in Europe

Stop transporting Chavs to places they don't have the brains to appreciate at prices that are less than the FULL COST of whats' being provided without cross subsidies. - can tell your not in yield management. These pay most of the wage bill. yes revenue generation is hiher in Y class but they are the biggest cash flow.

The Ryanair model of giving the flight away and charging for food and water etc. is not sustainable, and never has been - who else has tried it to show it is not sustainable?

Utter, utter rubbish. Your customers are those who pay a market price for the goods, no one else, don't downgrade them to a level they are not at.

[markrl]

“Raise prices. Add service. Stop transporting Chavs to places they don't have the brains to appreciate at prices that are less than the FULL COST of whats' being provided without cross subsidies. To do otherwise, relying on marginal costing, has always been a recipe for disaster in any and every industry it's been tried”.

Unfortunately none of this is ever going to happen you can’t put the clock back 40 years to 1968, the world has changed and moved on since the golden age of BOAC. Cheap flights with little service are here because there is a market demand. Even this tax greedy Government has so far shied away from hitting the airlines with fuel duty for fear of the political consequences, however much they would like to (yep nowadays even Chav’s have the vote). The alternative would be that flying was only for the rich and those on business. The result would inevitably be a much smaller airline industry. I don’t think many on this forum would be calling for that somehow. I doubt even Willie Walsh and Co would be dumb enough to take the commercial suicide route of only high prices. I’m not advocating everyone follow the Ryan Air model but neither do I believe the BOAC one would work in 2008. Times have changed.

[Basil]

Even this tax greedy Government has so far shied away from hitting the airlines with fuel duty for fear of the political consequences, however much they would like to (yep nowadays even Chav’s have the vote).
Haven't they got away with just that with motor fuel duty, airport taxes and, at local level, London congestion charging?
All of which hit those with least income. Not very Socialist.

[Capvermell]

I just received the below email from the BA Exec Club. It seems its now so bad that all even their marketing people can do is to grovel apologetically.

I would have thought that a smarter move would have been not to send a marketing email at all at this time than to send out one admitting and reminding all their regular passengers that they are now a total laughing stock.

However Wee Willie must obviously be feeling mighty grateful to the FAA, American Airlines and currently unfolding events across the pond for allowing his own monumental cock up to now become somewhat less noticeable on a world wide scale.

Here is the BA newsletter speel. A shame though that Wee Willy would not put his own name to it:-

Dear Mr --------------,

I was looking forward to telling you about the success of Terminal 5 this month, however, as you will be aware, we have experienced operational challenges since the opening of the terminal. I have spoken to a number of members personally and I recognise that we have let customers down. I, along with the rest of the team at British Airways are dedicated to meeting your expectations for Terminal 5 and offering you an improved experience.

If you are flying with us in the next few days, can I recommend that you check ba.com for the latest update or call us on 0800 727 800.

http://images.ed4.net/images/htdocs/britishair/2007/BRT_CM_236_Ski/html/left_butn.gif Newsletter Offers (http://home.britishairways.com/r/HN38C8/B4G4A/UUC5C7/IUDXZ/MR8LD/YG/h) http://images.ed4.net/images/htdocs/britishair/2007/BRT_CM_236_Ski/html/right_butn.gif
Our member offers this month include savings on Taste of London Festival tickets and bonus BA Miles with High Life Shop.

Warm regards,
http://images.ed4.net/images/htdocs/britishair/2007/BRT_CM_EXEC_APR07_164_Newsletter_Statement/html/3462_sarah_keyes_sig_blue.jpg
Sarah Keyes
Executive Club Manager



http://img.ed4.net/britishairways/2008_Q1/BRT_Q108_CM_ECN_April/html/POD_v1.gif (http://home.britishairways.com/r/HN38C8/B4G4A/UUC5C7/IUDXZ/Y85OM/YG/h)
http://www.ba.com/cms/global/images/email_images/uk_i/barc/shim_lgw.gif http://images.ed4.net/images/htdocs/britishair/2007/BRT_CM_241_EXEC_AUG07_EC_Newsletter/html/blue_box_topleft.gif

Offers http://images.ed4.net/images/htdocs/britishair/2007/BRT_CM_241_EXEC_AUG07_EC_Newsletter/html/blue_box_topright.gif http://images.ed4.net/images/htdocs/spacer.gif Enjoy paradise... from just £629 (http://home.britishairways.com/r/HN38C8/B4G4A/UUC5C7/IUDXZ/WBMY9/YG/h)

Enjoy tasty savings on Taste of London Festival tickets (http://home.britishairways.com/r/HN38C8/B4G4A/UUC5C7/IUDXZ/MR8A4/YG/h)

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http://www.ba.com/cms/global/images/email_images/uk_i/barc/shim_lgw.gifThis email was sent to. You have received this email because you have opted to receive Executive Club marketing emails from the British Airways Group. If you no longer wish to receive marketing emails, please ensure you submit the email address you signed up with. Please allow 10 days for all requests to be actioned.

If you have any questions please to contact us. To refer to our privacy policy, please
British Airways Plc registered office: Waterside, Speedbird Way, Harmondsworth, UB7 0GB.
Registered in England: 1777777.

This email is intended solely for the addressee(s) and the information it contains is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient (a) please delete this email and inform the sender as soon as possible, and (b) any copying, distribution or other action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance upon it is prohibited and may be unlawful.Also note that their great prices to the USA and Canada offer ends on the very day they have sent me the email.:D:ugh:

[Capvermell]

This is the latest from their website this evening:-

www.britishairways.com/travel/flightops/public/en_gb?p_faqid=3192 (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/flightops/public/en_gb?p_faqid=3192)

British Airways is aiming to operate a full schedule of flights from Terminal 5 on Friday 11 April.Sadly it appears that some people never learn from their past mistakes.:eek:

[Railgun]

Galley FM has it Worldwide will now have a phased move accross to T5 after a crisis meeting between BAA, BA and other airlines......

[Capvermell]

Galley FM has it Worldwide will now have a phased move accross to T5 after a crisis meeting between BAA, BA and other airlines......
And one would hope that this phased move will only even begin after they reach a stage where there are zero problems with operating the current routes from T5.

If they had moved across on a phased basis from the outset (instead of dumping all BA T1 flights at T5 in one day) then most of the problems experienced could have been satisfactorily addressed and resolved without running so wildly out of control.

[stormin norman]

Low cost model ?

It is with regret that Oasis Hong Kong Airlines announces that the airline has applied to the Hong Kong Court to appoint a provisional liquidator on 9 April 2008. The Court has appointed Edward Middleton and Patrick Cowley of KPMG as the provisional liquidators, and they have assumed control of the airline with effect from 1400h the same day Hong Kong time.

Our flight operations have been cancelled until further notice. The Provisional Liquidators are liaising with other airlines in order to help customers make alternate travel arrangements as quickly as possible.

[Sunfish]

As for the "low cost model " and my post about management as a group, cutting too deep on a worldwide basis. Watch what happens when aircraft start leaving big smoking holes on a regular basis. Prices will then rise...and the public will be glad they did.

[Capvermell]

As for the "low cost model " and my post about management as a group, cutting too deep on a worldwide basis. Watch what happens when aircraft start leaving big smoking holes on a regular basis. Prices will then rise...and the public will be glad they did.

Easyjet and Ryanair have now been operating for 10 years and so far this has not happened. And this despite them operating short haul routes where there are for more takeoffs and landings per mile travelled and hence more likelihood of problems.

Perhaps they have just been lucky or perhaps, unlike AdamAir, they realise which costs you cannot afford to cut beyond a certain point.

[woodpecker]

To add just a little humour to the situation, the comment from the Captain three and a half hours into a delay to Brussels due baggage problems at T5 was priceless...

"Same old circus, just a different tent"

[markrl]

Would Alitalia be classed as one of these cheapo budget airlines? Looks like their on skid row just like Oasis. Swissair were of course another famous no frills airline that hit the rocks in 2001. It can happen to any airline business from national carrier to small budget start up.

I must admit however personally I would rather have gonorrhoea then fly with Ryan Air but thats personal choice. I suspect Micheal O' Leary will be around in the airline business long after Wilie Walsh has gone.

[raveng]

To BAEng and to everyone who is posting using the group id 'BAEng', instead of spending every waking minute, in a crew 'restroom', perhaps you'd think about fixing an aircraft or two,:D every now and then, you know, like your supposed to be!! Oh dear, hope I haven't offended anyone!!!:oh::oh::ouch:

You have some serious issues with a company you so obviously dispise. If it's that bad LEAVE, I mean if it really is that bad, why do you stay???:p

[747-436]

raveng, for many in BA it is not as simple as leaving if you don't like it. Pilots are tied in by the seniority systems and to leave would mean the likelihood of starting at the bottom with someone else.

For Engineers I guess they are unlikely to be able to get a similar position for the same money, and often the ones who have been there many years have a pension at BA which if they went elsewhere they won't be able to get the same standard of benefit.

[biddedout]

Capvermell.

I just received the below email from the BA Exec Club. It seems its now so bad that all even their marketing people can do is to grovel apologetically.


I's a shame that it never occured to Willie Walsh :yuk:to send a letter of apology to the 20,000 or so customers (or more likely ex-customers) who are now into week three of phoning the lost Baggage helpline. Very friendly people up in the Newcastle call centre, but they can do f**k all really other than apologise and they are getting sick of it.:ugh:

[3Greens]

Markrl

I don't know where you go the idea that Swissair were a "no-frills" airline from. They even used to offer a full first class service on their ZRH-LHR routes. :ugh:

[Capvermell]

I don't know where you go the idea that Swissair were a "no-frills" airline from. They even used to offer a full first class service on their ZRH-LHR routes. :ugh:

I think you were possibly thrown by the OP's failure to use the Roll Eyes/Sarcasm emoticon after their post.

I believe the point they were making was that far more old style full service airlines have gone to the wall than low cost ones so the failure of Oasis doesn't really prove anything in that regard.

[markrl]

Thank you Mr Capvermell you made my point perfectly.

[13Alpha]

I's a shame that it never occured to Willie Walsh :yuk:to send a letter of apology to the 20,000 or so customers (or more likely ex-customers) who are now into week three of phoning the lost Baggage helpline. Very friendly people up in the Newcastle call centre, but they can do f**k all really other than apologise and they are getting sick of it.:ugh:


It's a good point.

When BA lost my bag recently things only really moved forward when I spoke to a real live human BA person at the Baggage Services desk at Gatwick. They said that phoning the Newcastle helpline was essentially pointless as they "know nothing" and confirmed my experience that the baggage handling staff in Edinburgh were pretty hopeless (not BA staff, the whole ground operation there has been subcontracted out). The LGW BA person listened to my issue, apologised, clearly knew how the system worked and arranged for my bag to be delivered a couple of days later.

He then pointed out that there was a good chance of bagagge handling at LGW being contracted out as well pretty soon :ugh:

13Alpha

[bermudatriangle]

the schambolic baggage situation is made far worse,as has already been stated,by BA management's decision to outsource it's ground handling at many of it's outstations.previously,dedicated,well trained employees worked hard to recover situations after operational distruption,however this resourse has been got rid of,with the now glaring black hole of no back up in times of crisis.the risks of outsourcing are well known and companies that choose to put short term profit ahead of operational integrity eventually suffer the consequences.BA is now suffering from that decision,operationally and importantly,it's brand reputation is once again damaged.both issues pale into insignificance,when compared to the suffering of it's passengers caught up in this fiasco.

[Willie Wash]

But not for Willie, he's actually said sorry before....

Nadia Ewida cross debacle -


WW - 'I have to accept responsibility for the way it was handled. I misjudged the way it was perceived in the public domain'


Extract from a craic 'ing' interview in This is money;

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investing-and-markets/article.html?in_article_id=421104&in_page_id=3

Details all the upsets at BA during WW's tenure, of course excluding the ongoing T5 fiasco.

[M.Mouse]

Having had a great deal of experience with carrying deportees I can assure you that they know every trick in the book to cause a nuisance from shouting abuse at all and sundry to defaecating where they sit. The escorts I have ever met are professional in the extreme, are well trained and most certainly do not over react to what is often extreme provocation.

The article you link to is short on facts and smacks of being written from a position of vivtimhood.

I could write an equally unbalanced piece about Nigerian passengers, their attitude and behaviour and liberal use of stolen credit cards, which would be as much a disservice to all the law abiding pleasant Nigerians I have met as the piece is a disservice to all the crew who have ever operated a flight to Africa.

Your contributions to this site seem to take every opportunity to generate bad feeling and bad publicity for the hand that feeds you. If you (plural) really hate your company that much why not leave so that those of us remaining can continue our efforts to restore some sense of organisation and efficiency in order that we can feel pride again in what was once an iconic airline.

Your posts make that task more difficult.

[Hand Solo]

Maybe it's just coincidence but the last disruptive deportee I carried was as quiet as a mouse as he waited on the jetty then as soon as it was time to board he kicked off, fighting his escorts and screaming that he was going to die. The cynical might think that that was a tried and tested tactic to get themselves off the aircraft and stave off deportation.:hmm:

[Basil]

Willie Wash,
Nigerians boycott British Airways
Excellent:ok:


There is even a petition on the matter;

. . and when you try to post on it they want some money. Yup, definitely Nigerian :}:}:}

[markrl]

I dont think BA is particularly at fault over this incident and many airlines carry deportees. I can remember flying to Romania many times with Tarom prior to their EU accession. At times almost half the passengers on board seemed to be there courtesy of HM Immigration service. The point about deportees using every trick in the book is perfectly valid and provides some of the best pre and in flight entertainment in the industry. The ladies always seem to want to take their clothes off prior to being chased by a hapless crowd of Wackenhut security officers around the departure lounge.

[M.Mouse]

WIllie Wash

You plainly know little about immigration issues. there are circumstances where BA is compelled to carry a deportee or an inadmissable person.

You say that BA is generating enough bad publicity for itself. Indeed it is but does that excuse people like yourself indulging in distasteful actions to further exacerbate that situation? I really do not understand your desire to publicly denigrate your own employer other than some perverted desire to damage the company further and jeopardise our already shaky future prospects.

[Willie Wash]

'BA's biggest shareholder, Invesco, with 11pc, is believed to be meeting the company next week. Invesco declined to comment'Looks like things are hotting up if the big boys/ladies are coming for a chat...... Latte at Waterworld. Let's hope they read PPrune to understand the strenght of feeling. Indeed maybe the letter to the shareholders and city has prompted this 'visit'.Certainly with the drop off in Shareprice and the prospect of losing all their investment, they may call for some big changes. Fingers crossed we just have to put up with another week of that shower.

[stormin norman]

ww

If you don't like the company, why not leave ?

You sound like a person who would find it diffficult to get a job anywhere.

[Willie Wash]

Stormin Normin, your choice of 'pen name' really does speak volumes about your own character. You really are the typial Cro-magnon, all war and no knowledge. Instead of continually attacking my posts why don't you go develop your own enquiring mind, it'll make you a much better manager at BA.

[Bill of the Hamptons]

Seems the travel insurance industry does not like BA/T5 either!

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/41158/Insurers-in-boycott-of-BA

THEY are starting"to leave":eek:

[Willie Wash]

Anyway Stormin, probably I like you have a 'job for life' at BA. Certainly performance ability applies to neither you, I or even Willie Walsh. Failure even on such a grandscale as the T5 balls up doesn't mean you have to leave, so what the heck, job for life, why would anyone leave..... Well of course that's if the company survives the coming months. Race you to the job centre!

[L337]

Another abusive post by Willie/BaEngineering.

Stormin is no manager he is a pilot. Accusing any and everyone who disagrees with you of being a manager is tedious to say the least.

Certainly performance ability applies to neither you, I or

I think you will find that if a pilot fails to perform, he will be out walking the streets. No license and no job.

I cannot but echo mMouse.

I really do not understand your desire to publicly denigrate your own employer other than some perverted desire to damage the company further and jeopardise our already shaky future prospects.

[Sick Squid]

Do you want this thread closed down? If so, then several of you are going the right way about it, and I'm fed up deleting your little personal insults behind the scenes.

If you have nothing to say constructive, then say nothing, and that applies across ALL the related threads. If all you want to do is score a point, then go play Wii Tennis or something like that; stop wasting the moderators' time on here.

Enough.

[moggiee]

Isn't it time to lock it anyway?

It's neither rumour nor news and has certainly outlived its usefulness.

[Willie Wash]

Evening standard has been running a Poll on whether Wee Willie should resign. The results are in, 97% say yes! Right in tune with my own and most of fellow PPRUNEr's. \you can see the link at;www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/poll-26434-details/ques-25905-id/City+poll:+Willie+Wash/poll.doThis thread is alive well and very current in the present climate. All those calling for it to be shut are only pandering to the 'censorship' that keeps the lid on the incompetance.

[Willie Wash]

Now, just having a look at the BA investor site and saw the following reference to 'respecting OUR world', like it belongs to BA!!! That just shows the arrogance. SHould state respecting the world (or environment etc) see for yourself at www.britishairways.com/travel/csr-corporate-responsibility/public/en_gb

[Shaka Zulu]

@Willie Walsh your posts are not entertaining.
There is a balanced view and just plain ranting. You are bordering on obsessive ranting.

[Phil.Capron]

Unfortunately for some,one way to partly restore the BA image in the eyes of the general public is to terminate the contract(s) of those held responsible for the debacle.
The fuel surcharge mistake is a case where this took place.
Tough management must cut both ways.
ATB to the BA staff struggling with T5 trying to make it work.

[markrl]

Mr Capron your point is a perfectly valid one and is now one of the issues causing BA enormous damage. No one has taken personal responsibility and resigned. Willie Walsh is now clinging to office like a disgraced politician and really should go. Weasel and worthless apologies just antagonise his ex-customers and inflict yet more damage on the brand. Just like a disgraced politician in the end he will have to go and in his heart of hearts I believe he probably knows it. The game is up and he and many of his senior managers have been rumbled as incompetent fools. He was the man at the top taking the big salary and perks. No problem when the company is successful but when you mess up on this scale you need to take responsibility and go. Had Terminal 5 been a wonderful success he would now be basking in all the glory and taking all the credit. Now that it’s a disaster he avoids all responsibility. Doubtless at the end of the year it will still be big financial bonuses all round as BA heads towards its nemeses. At that point they will all head for the lifeboats with their big payoffs and pensions leaving the likes of Michael O’ Leary and others to pick over the remains at the great BA end of the line fire sale. Think it wouldn’t happen? Well just look at the story of another spectacular British disaster GEC/Marconi. Another management team led by NuLabour friend Lord Simpson trashed in 5 years what had been build up over decades into one of Britain’s biggest and most successful companies. Lord Simpson of course later walked out the door with a fortune and for the rest it was redundancies all round. Willie Walsh and Co need to go so BA can make a fresh start and so BA’s customers can see those responsible have been punished. I can’t help wondering that had this disaster happened in Japan to an airline like JAL all of the senior executives would by now have been reassigned to terminal lavatory cleaning duties and picking up litter in the car parks.

N. B. As regards the earlier posts re immigration detainees this situation was in no way the fault of BA. This is a national carrier carrying out the lawful requirements of its own Government in this case the Immigration and Borders Agency. Anyone with a problem really needs to take this up with the Home Office as this is a matter of Government policy. Presumably the people who object to this have no problem with visa overstayers, Illegal entrants, foreign parasites and cheaters remaining in the UK at the taxpayer’s expense. Are would they perhaps rather the Government flew them home in their own personal Learjet courtesy of the public purse? Come on people get real.

[biddedout]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=559389&in_page_id=1773

Miss Moss is just one of the thousands of BA customers who have been let down over the last two weeks and who in many cases are still waiting for their belongings.
Unlike most affected by this shambolic launch of Terminal 5, she has the money and the staff to sort this out and can sue BA later. If it is true that Walsh has authorised an instant payment of £10,000 to this one customer when he cannot even be bothered to write and apologise to the rest, he really should be kicked out on his arse. If as described in other articles, Broughton was responsible for fixing this, then I suppose it at least confirms at last that the man is still alive. The arrogance of this company and its so called leadership team is staggering.

For those who are still percevering with the Baggage “helpline,” you will probably have realised by now that even if they think they have sent your bags out from London (they aren’t really sure), thanks to all the work put in by Mr Walsh and his predecessors slashing the BA operation in the regions, the bags then fall out of the BA system once again as they are handed over to external agencies. They are not logged in on arrival, they just vanish and all the staff can do is admit that they are lost again, with the vague hope that fingers crossed; they may get delivered by a courier. Mr Walsh, why don’t you assign the two senior managers that you put on the Moss case to spend time at the warehouses re-matching bags to names thus allowing your punch drunk call centre staff the chance to offer at least a glimmer of hope.

Then resign.

[WHBM]

Today's CityAM newspaper, which circulates in the City of London and has all the key contacts, has as its headline story that Standard Life investments, a significant shareholder in BA, has demanded a crunch meeting with Chairman Martin Broughton "in the light of the T5 fiasco". Key on the agenda is to question "whether Martin Broughton really is in control of his board".

Things really are coming to a head when one of your main shareholders sends their heavy squad in to ask the chairman what value, if any, they themself are adding to the process. If Broughton is not careful it looks like he will be joining Willie lining up at the HR department window for their P45s.

[Capvermell]

Things really are coming to a head when one of your main shareholders sends their heavy squad in to ask the chairman what value, if any, they themself are adding to the process. If Broughton is not careful it looks like he will be joining Willie lining up at the HR department window for their P45s.The question is though who else will hire Willie when his only previous major attraction was that despite being totally uncharismatic and uninspiring as an individual his ruthless determination to impose his will and push through ruthless cost slashing actually worked in terms of turning the business around.

Now that his press on regardless methods have blown up in his face exactly what skill sets can he now claim to offer. However one has a feeling that there may still be a place for him at Ryanair where charm with staff and/or passengers is not required and ruthless cost slashing has been virtually turned in to an art form. There again I suppose Willie may find it difficult to work for a CEO even more ruthless and lacking in good manners than himself (i.e. Michael O' Leary)

[Skylion]

Walsh resigning might be good tokenism but BA would be even worse off. The test of who should go is easy. Who were the most senior people who were aware of problems but didnt pass it up the chain,- however uncomfortable it may have been? Those to whom the bad news wasnt passed up to should also ask themselves why. There is something seriously wrong with the upper levels culture at BA and they have to sort that -and quickly. However if you remove the top 3 layers what have you in the way of successors left over from the various culls going back years plus many of the bright younger people who left of their own accord? The answer is a gaping void in succession. As an outsider coming into BA , Willie probably assumed he had several layers of real battle hardened talent below him and has only now learned that he hasnt and he has a real problem.

It is not only the management though who have to get a grip on the realities of year 2008. Other staff have got to give up the belief that nothing should change, that BA can afford less efficient working practices than its competitors. The unions have to give up clinging to the past and believing that they can do best by always ensuring that there are " issues" and threats of industrial action to sour the atmosphere and ensure the management/staff and inter sectional divides, real or imagined, continue.

Right now BA appears to be unloved by many of its staff and a lot of its customers. Customers do not like a sour climate and are simply walking away. They don't care who may or may not be responsible. They want a high quality, reliable and friendly product they can relate to.

The signs are that the airline is coming to a major crunch. If managing it isnt a pleasant experience then staff can't expect good managers to stick around. If good people dont stick around the whirlpool of decline will continue. If that happens the staff will become even more miserable and the customers more hacked off at experiencing the misery.

It is time that management at all levels, the staff and the unions all called a halt to the war. Most are in some ways, by acts or omissions culpable. It is time to design and agree the future ,constructively and away from emotion, threats of industrial action etc. If this isnt done , there will come a day when everyone is standing in a hanger being told that the airline has ceased trading. As many others have found before , it is too late then to say they will work for 6 months without pay and start again from first principles.

It's time to get a grip BA,- and that means EVERYONE in it. Love it or leave it.