Jet fuel plus FSII/AL48

[Flaxton Flyer]

I have heard some rumours that Air Total and Air BP will / may be shortly no longer supplying Jet-A1 pre-mixed with FSII. Anybody got any more information on this?

[finals09]

Have also heard this and belive it to be true. Do know somone that can still supply Jet A1 with FSI. PM me for details if required.

F09

[MightyGem]

I have heard some rumours that Air Total and Air BP will / may be shortly no longer supplying Jet-A1 pre-mixed with FSII. Anybody got any more information on this?

Yes, Air Total and Air BP. :rolleyes:

[Brilliant Stuff]

We have stopped using FSII since our helicopter does not need it.

[md 600 driver]

what is FS11 used for

[FloaterNorthWest]

Fuel System Icing Inhibitor (FSII) is an additive to aviation fuels that prevents the formation of ice in fuel lines. FSII is sometimes referred to by the genericized trademark Prist®. Jet fuel can contain a small amount of dissolved water that does not appear in particulate form. As an aircraft gains altitude, the temperature drops and Jet fuel's capacity to hold water is diminished. Particulate water can separate out and could become a serious problem if it freezes in fuel lines or filters, blocking the flow of fuel and shutting down an engine.

Chemically, FSII is an almost pure (99.9%) ethylene glycol monomethyl ether (EGMME, 2-methoxy ethanol, APISOLVE 76, CAS number [109-86-4]), or since 1994 diethylene glycol monomethyl ether (DEGMME, 2- (2-methoxy ethoxy) ethanol, APITOL 120, Methyl Carbitol, CAS number [111-77-3]). [1] Prior to 1994, Prist® was made to conform to MIL-I-27686E standard, which specified use of EGMME, but later it was switched to the MIL-DTL-85470B, specifying use of less hazardous DEGMME with higher flash point. [2] It also retards the growth of microorganisms eventually present in the fuel (mostly Cladosporium resinae fungii and Pseudomonas aeruginosa bacteria, known as "hydrocarbon utilizing microorganisms" or "H.U.M. bugs", which live in the water-fuel interface of the water droplets, form dark, gel-like mats, and cause microbial corrosion to plastic and rubber parts). EGMME was certified as a pesticide by the EPA, but the requirement changes raised the certification costs meanwhile so DEGMME has no official pesticide certification. DEGMME is a potent solvent, and its high concentrations can damage fuel bladders and filters; long-term storage of FSII-fuel mixtures is therefore suggested against.

Anhydrous isopropyl alcohol is sometimes used for the same purpose.

FSII is an agent that is mixed with jet fuel as it is pumped into the aircraft. The mixture of FSII must be between 0.10% and 0.15% by volume for the additive to work correctly, and the FSII must be distributed evenly throughout the fuel (simply adding FSII after the fuel has been pumped is therefore not sufficient). As aircraft climbs after takeoff, the temperature drops and any dissolved water will separate out from the fuel. FSII dissolves itself in particulate water preferentially over the jet fuel, where it then serves to depress the freezing point of water to -43°C. Since the freezing point of jet fuel itself is usually in this region, the formation of ice is now a minimal concern.

Large aircraft do not require FSII as they are usually equipped with electric fuel line heaters that keep the fuel at an appropriate temperature to prevent icing. However, if the fuel heaters are inoperable, the aircraft may be still be declared fit to fly if FSII is added to the fuel. In aircraft that require it, FSII must be injected into the fuel as it is pumped into the tank; it can't simply be dumped into the tank as the concentration will not be consistent throughout the entire fuel supply.

Storage procedures for FSII are extremely important. Drums containing FSII must be kept clean and dry as the additive is hygroscopic and can absorb water directly from moisture in the air. As well, some brands of FSII are highly toxic so gloves should be worn when handling it undiluted. Many FBOs allow FSII injection to be turned on or off so that one fuel truck can service those planes that do require FSII and those that don't. Line crew must be certain that they are delivering FSII when it is needed though. This was illustrated when a Flight Options Beechjet experienced a double flameout over the Gulf of Mexico in July 2004. The crew was able to glide to a lower altitude and restart the engines, and the aircraft landed safely. FAA investigators found no mechanical problems with the engines but when fuel samples were taken, FSII concentration was only 0.02% It was found that the FSII injector in the refueler at the FBO where the aircraft had taken fuel was either inoperative or the line staff failed to turn it on

[MightyGem]

what is FS11 used for

Bet you wished that you hadn't asked now.

[NLJ]

FNW

I hope that's all your own work and hasn't been plagiarised!:ooh:

[VfrpilotPB/2]

Floater,

I am very impressed with that answer.:D

VfrpilotPB/2
Peter R-B

[Droopy]

FNW, you obviously have too much spare time sitting waiting at Chorley...

[matspart3]

I gather Air BP are going to fit their own bowser fleet with FSII 'injector' systems for those aircraft that want it.

[FloaterNorthWest]

Sometimes wonder why people ask questions with Google and ASK available.

Love the internet. Instant expert. LOL

FNW

[rossi1]

Can someone tell me what AL 48 is,or is it another word for FS11.

[FloaterNorthWest]

Just a few words on AL-48:

Standards for Defence - Mixture of Fuel System Icing
Inhibitor and Lubricity Improving Additive - JSD: AL-48

1 Scope
This Standard specifies the requirements for a homogeneous mixture of an AL-61 Fuel Soluble Lubricity Improving Additive (LIA) and AL-41 Fuel System Icing Inhibitor (FSII) for addition to AVTUR F-35 (Def Stan 91-91) to prepare fuel meeting the requirements of AVTUR F-34 (Def Stan 91-87). The mixture may also be added to other aviation turbine fuels where the relevant standard requires the presence of AL-41 and AL-61 in the fuel. Material provided to this standard shall possess satisfactory performance and
properties when used in appropriate vehicles and/or gas turbines or engines operated by the Ministry of Defence, or for which the Civil Aviation Authority is the certificating agency.

2 Warning
The Ministry of Defence (MOD), like its contractors, is subject to both United Kingdom and European laws regarding Health and Safety at Work, without exemption. All Defence Standards either directly or indirectly invoke the use of processes and procedures that could be injurious to health if adequate
precautions are not taken. Defence Standards or their use in no way absolves users from complying with statutory and legal requirements relating to Health and Safety at Work.

3 Normative References
3.1 The documents and publications referred to in the text of this Standard are listed at Annex C. Publications are grouped and listed in alphanumeric order.
3.2 Reference in this Standard to any related documents means in any invitation to tender or contract the edition and all amendments current at the date of such tender or contract unless a specific edition is indicated.
3.3 In consideration of 3.2 above, users shall be fully aware of the issue and amendment status of all normative references, particularly when forming part of an invitation to tender or contract. Responsibility for the correct application of standards rests with users.
3.4 DStan can advise regarding where normative references are obtained from. Requests for such information can be made to the DStan Helpdesk. How to contact the Helpdesk is shown on the outside rear cover of this Defence

Standard.
4 Materials and Composition
4.1 The fluid shall be a homogeneous blend of AL-41 to specification Def Stan 68-252 and an AL-61 to specification Def Stan 68-251 (see Annex B).
4.2 The blend shall be known as AL-48 followed by a type number (shown in Table 1) to indicate the lubricity improving additive used. The AL-61 used in the AL-48 shall be one of those listed in QPL 68-251.
4.3 QPL 68-251 states the minimum and maximum concentrations at which the AL-61 shall be present in aviation turbine fuels when used as a lubricity improver. The concentration of the AL-61 in the finished AL-48 shall be such that; when the AL-48 is added to undosed AVTUR in the proportion of 0.125% by volume, the concentration of the AL-61 in the resulting fuel blend shall fall within the limits, stated in QPL 68-251, for that particular AL-61 type.
DEF STAN 68-150 Issue 22
4.4 The Ministry of Defence reserves the right to require that the material and any components used are
subject to toxicological and physiological tests to ascertain their suitability for use.

5 Product Compliance
5.1 Before any product can be considered as complying with this Standard, the manufacturer shall demonstrate that the product meets the requirements of Table 1.
5.2 The manufacturer shall submit, in confidence, formulation details, the source and identification of the AL-41 and AL-61 additives used to the Technical Authority.
5.3 Once submitted, the formulation shall not be changed without the written approval of the Technical Authority.
5.4 In addition to testing the finished product in accordance with Table 1, the Technical Authority reserves the right to require additional evidence that the product is compliant. The Technical Authority may require testing of the components at any stage of the manufacturing process.
5.5 If any sample taken from the consignment is found not to comply with the requirements of this Standard, the whole consignment may be rejected.

6 Testing
6.1 Properties of the product shall not exceed the maximum nor be less than the minimum values set out in Table 1.
6.2 Methods quoted in Table 1 are referee methods and shall be used in cases of dispute. Alternative technically equivalent methods may be used with agreement of the Technical Authority. Approved alternative methods are listed in Annex A, Table 2. A list of ISO test methods which were technically
equivalent to the IP test methods at the time of issue of the standard can be found at Annex A, Table 3.
6.3 IP 367, which covers the use of precision data, may be used for the interpretation of test results
in cases of dispute between purchaser and supplier.

7 Keeping Qualities
The product, when suitably stored in its original sealed containers, shall retain the properties described in this Standard for a period of not less than 12 months in temperate climates and not less than 6 months in tropical climates, from the date specified in the contract.

8 Containers and Marking of Containers
8.1 The product shall be supplied in sound, clean and dry containers, suitable for the product and in accordance with the requirements of the contract or order.
8.2 Coatings and paint finishes shall comply with the requirements of the contract or order. Markings shall be in accordance with the requirements of Def Stan 05-52 (Part 1). The product identification shall be specified in the contract or order.
8.3 It shall be the responsibility of the contractor to comply with any legal requirements for the marking of containers.

Think that is a yes Rossi 1

[rossi1]

Im looking for a bit of advice,with the decision of the major jet suppliers not to supply AL 48,what type of helis will be affected by this,at the moment we supply jet with AL 48 and to have an AL 48 injector fitted is £6000,+ the price of 240 LTS of AL 48,im thinking of just supplying jet A1 with no additives.looking for any advice,

THANKS

[ShyTorque]

The A109 and S-76 series don't need it, as they have oil / fuel pre-heaters. AS355s do need it at low temps, we used to add PRIST, but I'm not current these days and I've forgotten the details.

The advice is found in the individual flight manuals - can't recall any others off the top of my head.

[rossi1]

109s,thats handy to know,how about H 500s,gazelles,EC 120 & 135s,B 206, and military pumas as we seem to get our fair share of these in for fuel

[rufus.t.firefly]

The 365N needs it but not the N2

[Brilliant Stuff]

The EC135 doesn't need it either down to -20 degree celsius.

[Ancient Rotorhead]

Pardon the ignorance but, what is AL 48?

I am guessing that it is fuel system icing inhibitor (FSII) - an additive available, but seldom used by helicopters Dununda.

[ShyTorque]

You are correct!

[Satcop]

I wrote to my regular users (A109, AS355, B206, EC120, EC135, EC155, and S76) asking them if they required AL48, not one replied. I assume that they do not need it or are making their own arrangements.

[rossi1]

Thanks satcop and everyone else,looks like ill be supplying JET A1 without AL 48 and leave it to the operators to sort it themselves

[magbreak]

Shytorque, I think you'll find the 76 does need AL48/ ANother additive below +4 degrees. The C++ flight manual had an error which should have been corrected by now. It's an airframe rather than an engine limitation.

[WylieCoyote]

Does anyone know the lastest as to when the fuel suppliers will stop adding FSII? I'd heard that at Newcastle this will be the case soon, if it isn't already and do people plan to fly around with cans of Prist in the cab?
I've never had to use it but have heard that it not the nicest stuff in the world to handle.
Basically just wanted to know what people are planning to do,the ones without fuel heaters that is!

[rossi1]

Were still selling jet A1 with al48 supplied by air total but have been told that after xmas they will not be supplying it with AL48,quoted £6.000 +vat to have an injector fitted ,think ill just change the filters more often.

[EN48]

Not sure of this, but I believe that some helicopters are certified on the basis that fuel shall contain FSII. My Enstrom 480B is one of these. I have been told by the manufacturer that FSII is not required for technical reasons, but because the certification was done with FSII, it is now called out in the FM as "required." Given this, it would seem that without FSII the acft is not considered airworthy under FAA regs; if so this would have implications for insurance coverage if operated without , as well as other unhappy implications. Any brilliant insights?

[EN48]

do people plan to fly around with cans of Prist in the cab?


You may want to investigate the toxicity properties of Prist before doing so. I looked at this a few years ago wrt carrying Prist in the pressurized cabin of a turboprop airplane, and after reading what foul stuff it can be, decdided that carring it in the cabin wasnt the best idea.

[MightyGem]

We were informed last week that Oxford no longer supply fuel with FSII.

[HeliEng]

Just to add my two-penneth!

PRIST is HORRIBLE stuff!!!! I wouldn't touch it personally. Although most of the anti-ice additives are pretty dangerous, PRIST seems to be the worst.

If I remember correctly it can affect fertility (both male and female), damage unborn fetuses and that is just the bits I remember, we had a few people refuse to use it just down to what they read on the Safety Data Sheet!!!

[WylieCoyote]

EN48

I must admit I'm not keen to carry cans of Prist around but I have been assured that the aerosol cans are are safe enough in the aircraft (unpressurised) so long as they haven't been discharged. i.e don't use half a can and then throw it back in the boot.
I'm not keen to use the stuff at all and it seems neither is anyone else, I have heard that in the states and Canada firms use it all the time, is there anyone out there who does use it on a day to day basis who could offer some feedback?

Incidentally our FM(Bo105) states an anti-ice additive should be used to assure consistent starts at temperatures below +4c especially if the engine has been allowed to cold soak, it goes on however, to say that once started Jet A1 will run the engine satisfactorily down to -32c...........so providing it's been in a warm hangar say before you start it does that mean you don't need the anti-ice additive?

[EN48]

I have heard that in the states and Canada firms use it all the time


Cant comment on Canada, but in the US, in my experience, it is rare to need to add Prist from a can. Most fuel suppliers either sell only fuel pre-blended with Prist, or have an injector system on the fuel truck that adds Prist as the acft is fueled. If one is fueling out in the boonies, say from drums, might be a different story.

[Bladecrack]

Air BP AL48 bulk supply locations are Cranfield, Goodwood, and Fairoaks, plus several commercial helicopter company bases.

[nellycopter]

how did this get on the front page -
no one has posted on it since 2008 ?????

interesting that a few winters have passed and there doesnt seem to be an answer still ??

i dont want to die by prist - but nor do i want my engine / fuel to freeze and konk out .......

what about a gas mask - when spraying the can of prist in ???

nelly

[s1lverback]

Hold your breath and look away :)

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Sounds like a night out in (insert name of major UK conurbation here...)

[Bravo73]

how did this get on the front page -
no one has posted on it since 2008 ?????


By the power of mod, I imagine.

[nellycopter]

Is it cos it's getting cold and they know someone (like me) was gunna ask......