Cost for annual [Archive]

scooter boy

29th Mar 2008, 17:13

Having been charged £8970 (inc VAT) for an annual on my 4 year old R44 (which took 3 weeks to complete). I am interested to know what others are being charged. Admittedly it needed a new exhaust (£2750) and the 500hr mag check, but this seems incredibly steep and long-winded.

What kind of hourly labour rate is acceptable?

They also chipped my paint (and touched it up with a brush hoping I wouldn't notice!) and left my main rotor blades seriously out of balance. The aircraft was not safe to fly when I collected it and the main rotor required rebalancing.

Thinking seriously about taking my business elsewhere.

Any recommendations?

SB

PEASACAKE

29th Mar 2008, 17:45

The aircraft was not safe to fly when I collected it..........

In whose expert opinion was it not safe to fly, yours or the engineers who carried out the annual.

TiPwEiGhT

29th Mar 2008, 19:06

Providing there was nothing abnormal with your machine I would change companies just because it took 3 weeks (unless you were told prior)!

That seems expensive for an exhaust, but for all I know that could be the going rate at the mo. As for damaging your machine, unfortunately these things do happen but it's never a good thing. Unfortunately quality of service varies widely from company to company. I once put our machines to an organisation who started working on it the second the skids touched the ground, and it would be returned in spanking condition following a full clean and fresh bill of health.

Gaseous

29th Mar 2008, 19:20

Including a new exhaust, swashplate rebuild, tail rotor bearing, star annual, C of A and ARC issue including extortionate CAA fees including a £92 permit for ONE flight because the job wasnt done before the old Cof A expired, I didn't get any change out of £6K and it needed a track and balance when I got it back. No vat on the labour. Welcome to the world of helicopter maintenance. Oh, by the way, An Enstrom, not a 44.

After an annual it usually takes me weeks to get it as good as it was before it went in.

Labour about £40/hour.

I usually keep the costs down by being there myself and doing a lot of the donkey work, but this time I had to leave them to it because of my bad back.

I'm not sure which hurt more!

Still, look on the bright side. It stops the masses from clogging up the skies like they have with the roads.

bvgs

29th Mar 2008, 19:27

Hi scoots just had an annual done on my Raven II. It cost about £2,500 plus vat and they also scratched the tailboom! My wheels were missing and being used to transport another heli when I went to collect it. Personally think the whole maintenance thing in the uk is crap with this "fixed price servicing". Purchased my heli in Belgium and the main dealer there simply charged 48 euros per hour for the work. Even if that was pounds I'd be happy but trust me you aint going to change it. If your machine came back as bad as you say then I wouldn't pay the full amount and get it done else where in the future. Sorry to hear about your troubles.

muffin

29th Mar 2008, 20:49

My R22 had its annual and C of A a few weeks ago. The bill was just under £6000 including a new engine oil cooler baffle at £480 plus £500 labour to replace it. The original one was apparently cracked. The items that did irritate me were a new pilots operating handbook and a new first aid kit, neither of which I had asked for. The labour rate was £55 per hour and the job took about 3 weeks in total.

helicopter-redeye

29th Mar 2008, 21:17

A newish company mailed me their price list today, quoting annual incl all routine parts at £2.2k. Their prices look a bit higher than the current maint costs I pay and I'm not planning on swapping as I've found an operation that I trust, is well run and very efficient (and very busy, which is a good thing).

I guess yr prob will always be that you live on the tip of an peninsular at the far end of the country, and so geography is against you.

Its all the 'extras' that add up - ADs SBs Consumables Inflating the floats ...

Find a place (or a chief engineer) you trust and then trade with them.

h-r;)

Oldlae

29th Mar 2008, 22:42

Scooter
You are entitled to request the labour rate for any company that are qualified to do the work, it might be worth flying a bit further to get to a company you are happy with. You should have been given a detailed bill showing the work carried out, did you know what work was required at the time, as redeye said a lot of extras might inflate the final bill. I hope you did not pay for the re-balance of the blades, but having said that why did the blades require balancing at an annual inspection? There must have been extra work which you didn't mention.
Helicopter maintenance is not cheap, certifying engineers are entitled to a fair wage. One of the problems of costing jobs is that out of an eight hour day, only about seven hours can accounted for, toilet visits, tea breaks notwithstanding, management has to make up for that and on a three week job it is easy to hide the man-hours and I am not saying that happened in your case, but it happens. I once carried out a enquiry into a maintenance cost on a plank job, I interviewed the Chief Engineer to get the story and when I eventually, much later, asked for the final bill for the breakdown of the man-hours I found that the company had taken £10,000 off the bill even though some of the cost was down to the owner not taking more care of his aircraft.

AB139engineer

30th Mar 2008, 02:45

Hi, I just did a 500 hour / annual on a 4 year old R-44 a couple of months ago and including mag overhaul and parts & labour and a couple of AWDs cost around $4,600.00 CAN . I have over 20 years time on Robinsons Helicopters however I no longer work on them as often as I used to, but continue to to keep myself current on piston aircraft. I only deal with a few select customers that are willing to pay for a proper inspections and never balk at the price of good maintenance.

But in your case it sounds like you got taken to the cleaners, ask for a detailed explanation of what was done and if your still not satisfied seek out another more reputable AMO.

AB139engineer

30th Mar 2008, 02:50

Perhaps if it didn't cost so much bloody money to live in Britain, it would not cost so much for maintenance. All though I been to your lovely country many times, I just cannot fathom residing there with the high cost of living in your country.

nigelh

30th Mar 2008, 10:53

Yes, but at least we have the CAA which keeps us from flying ...which actually then saves us money ......oh unless we are flying to MAKE money , in which case they cost us a fortune and stop us making any . understand ?:confused:

slowrotor

30th Mar 2008, 17:34

An annual inspection does not include repairs and maintenance. The repairs and maintenance can be done as well if desired but the inspection can also be ordered without any repairs.
Just ask for an inspection and a list of discrepancies in writing. The owner should then review the list before the work is done. This should help satisfy the needs of both the owner and the maintenance facility.

slowrotor
(retired inspector)

sorath5

30th Mar 2008, 19:08

If you own a helicopter, then you have enough money to maintain it! Stop the whining and pay the price. You guys will pay $120usd/hr in labor to get your car fixed, but moan and groan when it cost $55/hr to fix the helicopter! Jeez.:ugh:

Gaseous

30th Mar 2008, 20:56

I think you will find maintenance no cheaper than the equivalent of $80 per hour in the UK. This is not a lot and I am happy to pay my engineer. He does a good job. I trust him. Things dont always go perfectly but thats life.

I strongly object to the rip off regulatory fees and all the hours the engineer charges me to complete the bull**** required by the regulatory authority. This time it accounted for about 30% of the bill.
It adds nothing to safety. Its just part of rip off Britain.

When I asked the CAA man why it cost so much for a permit for a single relocation flight his answer was "it keeps us in a job" and he laughed.:yuk:

Rigga

30th Mar 2008, 21:03

Nice one Sorath!

A CAA Surveyor once told me, as I was entering the big world of civil aviation...

"Big Jets can get you big money;
Helicopters are complicated to manage and labour intensive;
Pistons aircraft are run by penny-pinchers who quibble over every rivet.
Business Jets are good money and good conditions - If the owner wants a new Radar and you ask him what type - he'll say "Colour!"

I don't think this statement has devalued very much over time.

Its never been a cheap "sport" - however, you shouldn't be ripped off either.

I think there's more to this than reaches the keyboard....

bvgs

30th Mar 2008, 21:04

Sorath, perhaps you should do your research before such an attack. In the uk where I and scooter come from the average cost per hour for maintenance work is £55 per hour which equates to $110! Secondly we have this fixed price for 50/100 annuals which doesn't relay to the actual time spent on the machine. many organisations over here do work without first getting authorisation to do it and thus a high bill is presented to the surprise of the owner. Finally 3 weeks is a rediculous time for a helicopter to be grounded for an annual and scooters complaints about how his heli was treated and the return condition of it were not mentioned in your post. To end with "jeez :ugh:" you are obvioiusly easily annoyed.

tinyjohnston

30th Mar 2008, 21:31

SCOOTER BOY

I would be looking for a detail of what was done asap..... that is just shy of €11,500....... WOW........ Allot of money for anything.....

Secondly, what company preformed your annual?? I would be tempted to get a copy of the detail of what was done & send it to a few other companies for pricing.... Just for your own piece of mind to see if you were ripped off or justifiably charged.

The last thing is why did you need a new exhaust system????
4 years & 500 hours seems like a short life to me......

Tiny

scooter boy

30th Mar 2008, 22:21

PEASACAKE,
As it happened my LPC was scheduled for the day I collected the machine. The "expert opinion" was that of the regional examiner. There was pretty significant vibration and a visible 2" gap between the tip paths.
Had I been PIC then I would have made the exact same call.

Being a reasonable kinda guy I will ask for a detailed breakdown of the work done (this was not included with the bill). I am well aware of the impact of CAA charges and bureaucracy and the way they drive up the prices and burden of paperwork, however I think this bill will take some justification.

Redeye is quite right that there aren't many options down here in the Southwest UK, however friends have recommended alternatives. My main reason for sticking with this outfit has been convenience, but having had 3 wks of downtime and a bill this size is making me reconsider.

I have no intention of paying any more for the rebalancing - this has already cost me £100 in landing fees, £70 in avgas and 0.9h loss of component life, I think I have paid enough.

I would be grateful for more recommendations for alternative maintenance organisations.

Thanks guys,
SB

PEASACAKE

31st Mar 2008, 17:33

Question answered.

I would have your invoice analysed confidentially by another organisation when you have a full breakdown of cost.

The trouble is that sometimes organisations use "trainees" on inspections and charge full rate for them, maybe this happened to you.

My own R44 had the opposite costs, my magnetos were due and my maintenance company missed them on the 500 inspection, it flew 880 hours before they were removed.

As you say the Southwest is not highly populated with maintenance organisations so choice is limited, Have you tried Rotorspan, lovely reception and service.

rotorboater

31st Mar 2008, 19:55

Thank god I have a reasonable priced engineer!
I did have to wait 3 weeks for the CAA to finish the paperwork though but at least it didn't cost more than 1500 GBP for the lot:)

( I suppose 1500 is good value - makes you think, I thought its a lot of money for an oil change and an mot!)

copter65

31st Mar 2008, 22:55

Having owned three 44s over the past ten years I would seriously be interested to a clue to WHO whacked you with that bill.

When I get f***ed I like to be kissed at the same time!!!! And I would certainly question that bill.:{

If my current 44 R2 annual is above £1700/£1800 then it goes on my "look at it further" bills pile.

There are some great engineers out there charging sensible prices for private owners. Try Glenn at GB Engineering in Leeds for one.

Why, oh why, is there this widespread opinion of "If you can afford a Rolls don't whinge about the petrol" syndrome associated with helicopters.

Everyone should get a good job for a fair price....!!!!!! But don't forget we do live in RIP-OFF BRITAIN.

Rgds.

Gaseous

1st Apr 2008, 19:06

Welcome to PPRuNe Englebert.

We don't get paid any extra for changing worn out parts.

:confused: My engineer does. I got billed quite rightly for the swashplate and TR overhaul this time. It was a good job at a fair price on top of the usual annual fee.

We dont think you're all out to rip us off. Some of us appreciate your work for preserving our backsides.

As a fairly old hand at working with various engineers over the years I have come up with a list of things that annoy owners and pilots, some from this thread, some of my own. Some anecdotally from other owners. One or two of these have annoyed me over the years. A lot come from friends in the plank world. Here it is:

Work done without explanation or permission, resulting in an unexpected large bill.
no itemised bill
Inspections carried out and parts replaced not required by the schedule.
Star annual done instead of routine annual (yes really!)
Hours logged but not worked. (anecdotal)
Paying for time when engineer is on phone about other jobs.
Hours worked on the CAA paperwork charged on top.
Muffin's new POH and first aid kit - I hope you queried that one.
Bits changed without explanation - that the owner thinks were OK.
Scrap parts disposed of without the owner seeing them or owners permission
Changing 'sets' of parts like rod ends and bearings rather than just worn ones.
Changing parts That are well worn but within spec.
Fixed price services done in very short time.
Damage to paint
dents to panels
filthy cockpits on return
filthy transparencies
filthy paint
oil everywhere
inflated consumable prices
Inflated carriage prices on parts.
Inflated parts prices - including procuring them from the most expensive possible source.
Extended AOG times.
CAA fees.
using regulation changes to as an excuse to inflate the bill.
Lack of explanation/apology when things do go wrong.

Most of the time owners dont grumble about these to the engineer. They just pay the bill but moan like hell to other pilots.

Avoid these(where possible) and most owners will be happy.
What doesnt annoy me are genuine errors and oversights.

I'm sure you could come up with a list of things owners do to annoy engineers. That would be interesting.

edit. I need a new engineer so I asked in another thread. The feedback I've got for all the local ones has been without exception very positive so clearly lots are getting it right.:ok:

quichemech

2nd Apr 2008, 12:44

Things that Pilot do to Annoy engineers? Well I don't think there would be enough room on the Server to get it in, so howabout breathe for a start!

Gaseous, some of the points you raised in your list are relevant, other are not, extended AOG times, we don't make them the suppliers do. Do you think we like keeping your aircraft sat around when we could get it out the door and earn money on something else?

Buying Parts from the most expensive sources? Well the amount of places you can buy parts is quite limited, most companies don't get any discounts on supply and it is only fair that a small administration charge is applied for Batching in and handling, which all takes time. Also ringing around 20 different people to find you a part for a couple of quid cheaper takes a lot of time as well, as for not seeing unserviceable parts, lots of them do have to returned as core deposits, or alternatively you can have the core charge added on, which trust me you wouldn't like.

If you have genuine concerns over your bills, then sitting down and have things explained properly with the chief Enginneer would be the best route forward, whinging on a website about it isn't.

Oh, and lastly, who do you expect to pick up all of the extra regulatory costs from the CAA?

Rant over!

Brilliant Stuff

2nd Apr 2008, 13:27

Peasacake glad you mentioned those nice people. I last flew R22 to them 10 years ago then I got a job which took me away from R22's. But back then they were always very accommodating and down to earth I am glad to hear this is still the case, doesn't surprise me really.

Guys if you read this, soon you can buy a Scirocco again for your wife.:)

hatters united

2nd Apr 2008, 14:42

Gaseous

" Bits changed without explanation - that the owner thinks were o.k. " :{

1. The last time I checked, the owner was not certifying the work, so if the licensed engineer deems an item beyond limits or will not last to the next S.M.I. he is entitled to replace the item or refuse to sign the aircraft out ( which will cost you more money for a 2nd inspection of the aircraft ). Of coarse a owner should be informed of defects, but he does not have a right to veto aircraft safety issues :=

2. In the past, when letting marginal items go, ( to please the owner ) then when the item fails before the next S.M.I. you - the owner cries foul play that way. ( You've only just checked that last month you moan ! ). :p

Unfortunatly to many owners want their cake and to eat it - at everone elses expense :ugh:

I guess aircraft owners in making their fortunes always charge a fair price for their product / service - NOT ! :E

md 600 driver

2nd Apr 2008, 14:59

hatters

i think what gaseous is saying that parts he thought were ok have been replaced but hes not even told untill he pickes up his machine then wham theres the bill

if i was to send one of my sparkies to your property to do a test on your electrics being previously quoted to you 130 for the check when you get home to find that he has repaced your fusebox and rewired some circuits and theres a bill for £600 to be paid would you be happy ?would you ring trading standards and contact traders from hell ?

i think there is sometimes a need to discuss this with the owner first we do with all our customers so we dont get bad customer ratings

i think most owners would want to replace parts that need replacing they are the ones that go in the air

bullshitproof

2nd Apr 2008, 16:37

Well Scoots now you see you are not on your own does it make you feel better ! ! we are all in the same boat, private helicopter maintainance in the uk is the same (almost) wherever you go,you get better treatment and service at a second rate car garage put it on the N reg maintainance is more sensible and you can carry out much of it yourself if you are capable.

Gaseous

2nd Apr 2008, 18:23

Dont shoot the messenger. I am just passing on comments I have picked up over the years.

2 comments above are very revealing.

I guess aircraft owners in making their fortunes always charge a fair price for their product / service - NOT !

so howabout breathe for a start!

My engineer has been great. I hope I can call him a friend and wish him well in his retirement.:ok:

quichemech

2nd Apr 2008, 18:57

Gaseous.

It's not an attitude towards clients at all, I think that is quite an unfair thing to say. It was more a statement that goes all with what you were saying about things that engineers and maintenance companies do that annoy pilots. It is very much a 2 way street and sometmes both sides maybe need to communicate better. Parts on your machine that need changing and are high cost should of course be notified to the owner operator. I would not go ahead and do high cost work with out notifying the client and receiving their ok before going ahead, generally in writing (the joy of e-mail). As Hatters stated, the decision to replace the item is that of the engineer, not the owner or pilot, as he also stated you are within your rights for a second opinion.

Maintenance costs are a constant bone of contention between operators and maintainers, a reason why one of my former employers decided to set up his own 145 organisaton, a very costly exercise but one I know he is very glad he did. Generally we engineers don't change things for fun, we do it because it needs doing to ensure your continued safety, a matter we all take extremely seriously and you are right to say that you consider the engineer who used to work on your aircraft a friend, that is how the relatonship should be between 2 profession people with a high level of mutual respect.

Gaseous

2nd Apr 2008, 19:03

Quiche

Yes, my apologies. I was just editing that bit when you posted as it did not read quite as I intended. Your comment was clearly tongue in cheek.

I agree, its a two way street and if communication is good there should be no problem.

With regard to end of life of parts, I refer to parts where the manufacturer specifies a tolerable amount of wear. It is a simple matter to measure wear in a rod end. A few years ago I bought a selection of tools and odds and ends from an engineering concern that had gone out of business. One box contained rather a lot of identifiable by part number, used bearings and rod ends, some clearly in good condition, some just about in spec. Without the full facts it is impossible to say why they had been removed or why they had been kept but the most likely reason is not good.

FloaterNorthWest

2nd Apr 2008, 19:09

I'll happily swap your R22 annual for my S76 annual.

Any takers?

FNW

quichemech

2nd Apr 2008, 19:16

FNW

Now that would hurt! How much does that baby rush you? Mega bucks!!!!!!!!!

FloaterNorthWest

3rd Apr 2008, 09:21

Quiche,

Still waiting for the bill from the last one but expecting it to be between 50 and 100k. Lots of bits needed replacing/repairing on our old 76.

FNW

Chopper Doc Junior

3rd Apr 2008, 09:33

Puts small helicopter ownership in a slightly different light. You can buy an airworthy enstrom for that sort of money but even they get expensive when the engine times out or the M/R gearbox is due replacing or the blades get old and delaminate.

scooter boy

8th Apr 2008, 22:45

Gentlemen, a quick update on my situation.

Having had the detailed parts and labour independently scrutinised by two well respected individuals in the world of rotary engineering (who are based too far from me to offer their services and thus have no axe to grind) it appears that I have indeed been overcharged.

The markup on parts varied from 30-40% over Robinson base price - maintenance organisations purchase the parts for less than this and already generate profit by selling them AT base price. This extra margin presumably reflects some form of golden touch that the parts are given on their way into my machine?

Total labour time was probably exaggerated by 20% (i:e job could have been done in 40 rather than 50 hrs).

Some of the charges were dubious but difficult to contest.

Even use of outside contractors was marked up, the avionics check had an additional £110 added to what the contractor usually charges. i:e contractor charges HMO £140, they charge me £255 for NO added value except picking the phone up and calling him and giving him a brief period of hangar access.

My "£2800 complete new muffler assembly" consists of 11 or so sub-parts.
It is highly unlikely that all 11 parts were holed and required replacing. I could have paid a fraction of this total cost but was not offered this option. The fact that I was led down the garden path with this one really horrifies me.

The 3 week downtime for mag overhaul could have been avioded by pre-booking an overhaul slot rather than waiting for the aircraft to arrive and then having to join a long queue. The HMO knew the date I was booked for more than 1 month in advance. This is basic incompetence and shows little regard for my time and aircraft downtime.

I am saddened that the trust I had in these individuals was misplaced. It disappoints me to think that people whose business I sponsor have little regard for wasting my hard earned cash and basically ripping me off.

I will be taking issue with the maintenance organisation concerned and will contest elements of the bill all the way to court if necessary.

I shall also freely spead the word that this organisation have little compunction in overcharging their customers. Somebody else advised me that I was paying them through the nose 2 years ago but I stayed with them because I am very busy and didn't need the hassle of going elsewhere. Well they have made my mind up permanently.

I would give this "new management team" 18 months max before they lose their existing customer base and the business collapses. In the meantime I'll happily fly a little further for a better deal - they have milked this cash cow once too often.

SB