DII(F) - 'F' for future? or just plain 'F######'!

[Mr-AEO]

The MOD has spent god knows how much on DII(F). Sure, one day we'll all be able to e-mail each other etc etc, but that day seems an age away. This week alone we have had absolutely zero IT functionality for a day and a half, as you can imagine the productivity nosedived. Things seem to be getting worse, not better.

I ask you, could we have possibly spent these £M's on a more worthwhile cause?? I think it's a sad waste of money that is desperately needed elsewhere.

[High_lander]

Hopefully they'll do better then the NHS system.


Spoke to a kid who did his work experience on it.
DII(F)***ing muppets whoever designed and thought that process through

[SRENNAPS]

Funny isn’t it, the MOD want new computer systems – they don’t work. The MOD wants new aeroplanes – they don’t work either. In fact just about everything that the MOD buys (JPA and guns included) don’t work properly.........I wonder why???

[Beatriz Fontana]

The problem is that major computer contractors won't touch government contracts per se with a bargepole because such deals are both multi-complex and enormous. So we end up with tin-pot, half cut services instead.

Integrated computer system? My rear...

[Postman Plod]

I dunno - the bidders:

Atlas - (EDS (prime), Fujitsu, Cogent, General Dynamics, LogicaCMG)

IBM - (IBM (prime), BAE Systems, Computacenter, Steria, ntl, Echelon)

Lockheed Martin - (Lockheed Martin (prime), Deloitte, Hewlett Packard, Qinetiq, SAIC, Unisys)

Radii - (CSC (prime), BT, Capgemini, Thales UK)

You're basically talking the biggest IT suppliers / service providers in the world, so certainly not tinpot. Well thats the theory anyway...

I think the point is that if the big companies cant even get it right (repeatedly) then you'd think that someone would take notice and not outsource to people with a proven track record of failure (think NHS, pensions, and every other major government IT fiasco over the last 10 years, and think what the common denominator in a lot of them was. Any of those names above just happen to crop up?)

IT promises lots, but delivers little. I'm surprised your productivity plummeted when you're systems went down - I would have thought it would have gone through the roof without computers to screw it all up! :}

Oh - I work for one of those companies mentioned above, and worked on the DII(F) bid for another... :8 The one thing outsourcing has taught me is that the bid promises bear no relation to what you get delivered, its a complete waste of our tax money when the suppliers main role is to rip you off as much as possible, you'll get absolutely no loyalty from your suppliers, the supplier will not resource the account sufficiently, your service will disappear down the pan, end up "offshored" to India to maximise their profits, you'll have no comeback, everything costs, you get absolutely nothing free, you'll be fighting for it all the way, and in 5-10 years time when the contract is up for grabs (and just as the service gets to an acceptable level), you'll end up with a new supplier and go straight back to square 1.

I'm not planning on sticking around in outsourced IT for long.... :ugh:

[Flyingblind]

To apply the KISS principle here, would it not be better for all parties if procurement went something like this;

End User; "You chaps have stuff i want"

Solutions Provider; "Ok, which stuff?"

"That gear over there"

"Arhh......does Sir know how to use it?"

"Not really, but i'm sure I'll get the hang of it, we have some very bright people in our organization who will figure it out and they have used stuff very similar before"

"Very good......Cash or Credit Sir?"

[Gainesy]

That's pretty much how the Jaguar cockpit/systems upgrade in the early
1990s went.

It worked.

Then industry got all snotty about it...

[Northern Circuit]

I think the point is that if the big companies cant even get it right

you mean THE company that provided DII (and JPA)

the reputation of the other companies listed there is far more intact

/NS

[Beatriz Fontana]

Happy to be corrected Postman Plod.

It still remains that DII is shoddy, the spam filtering is appalling, the sever speed is unacceptable and the service help line is worse than BT, and that's saying something. I thought the old systems were bad, but considering we're in 2008, the system takes so long to procure - just like our big kit projects - it's out of date by the time it goes in service.

[Postman Plod]

Please dont think the other companies deserve any better a reputation...

[tucumseh]

Postman Plod

!!!!! Each bid team has at least one company I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. Not sure I'd like to be doing the bid assessment. I'd have the known good companies in a corner and tell them to form a consortium!

[Pontius Navigator]

I have had DII/c for a couple of years. It works. I have had DII/f ........

People come, people go, had two turn up one day to fix a problem and 2 others, uannounced, to accept the system AT THE SAME TIME.

Then on Friday 2 more came, unannounced, to accept the system. Naturally it doesn't work. I actually have an appointment from DII for 4 weeks hence to accept it. Exactly what they do when they come I don't know but it is always in pairs.

[Zoom]

What old kit is this new kit replacing?

[Pete_slf]

I did some work for DII(f) about a year ago as an EDS contractor. I left the project mainy because it just wasn't being managed. Here's my 2p worth:

1. MOD asks eds 'can you provide X in Y timescale?
2. EDS (and the rest of ATLAS) says yes without understanding what is reqiuied.
3. Atlas tries to build X in Y time, but can't, so they deliver waht they've got.
4. MOD says 'Actually we wanted Z not X'
5. go to 2 and repeat.

The suits in whitehall and the guy in a landrover in Iraq need different things, but DII(f) is one size, fits no-one.

Sound familiar?

[exscribbler]

Is it the kit or the management? For instance, am I alone in wondering just how the contestants in "The Apprentice" manage to dress and feed themselves?:ugh:

They seem to spend their time arguing and so lose sight of the desired end result as well as making the most basic errors. If they're examples of what's good in British management, then God help us. Just think, they may even have brothers and sisters in the MoD...

[Old Ned]

Years back, an old boss of mine in FI provided the definitive Project Cycle for MOD procurements:

Wild Enthusiasm


Chaos


Search For The Guilty


Punishment Of The Innocent


Promotion Of The Non-Participants
Seems to ring true even today

Pip pip ON

[Beatriz Fontana]

Old Ned,

Certainly does, Sir! Marvellous observation.

[themightyimp]

Don't forget we keep cutting the money available to support this :mad:

[Lurking123]

I'm not a Wikipedia fan but this made me chuckle.

Network Enabled Capability, or NEC, is the name given to the United Kingdom Ministry of Defence intent to achieve enhanced military effect through the better use of information systems towards the goal of "right information, right place, right time - and not too much".

and then, from JSP 777

NEC is not a pipe dream.

[Riskman]

Exscribbler,
Is it the kit or the management?

If you have a network at home, or do any on-line gaming, then basically you've got the 'kit', and after you've ironed out the glitches, the kit works.

However, when you have some barking-mad restrictions which actively prevent NEC, and a 'chief executive' who refuses to acknowledge that thousands of little problems occurring every day might amount to a big problem, coupled with performance targets my old 386 could achieve, then you have DII(F).:ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

How much does DII/f cost?

Oh, same as an aircraft carrier.

Yes £4,000,000,000. Now no one would believe a say 400,000 PCs at £10,000 apiece.

400,000, which would work out at one PC each, is clearly ludicrous as many people will have to share. So how do you justify that massive sum?

Edited to add:

BWoS, not as far as it appears but:

Atlas - (EDS (prime), Fujitsu, Cogent, General Dynamics, LogicaCMG) so who does that hide?

http://management.silicon.com/government/0,39024677,39128279,00.htm

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't EDS have a track record?

And who 'managed' MFMIS that was strangled before birth 4 months ago?

Guess what I found:

http://www.avitech-ag.com/pages/center_publications_maastricht.php3

EDS and Avitech are pleased to announce its selection by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) as the Prime contractor for the Military Flying Management Information System (MFMIS) program.

[BEagle]

So how do you justify that massive sum?

Are BWoS involved?

[In Tor Wot]

Rickman:

"If you have a network at home, or do any on-line gaming, then basically you've got the 'kit', and after you've ironed out the glitches, the kit works."

Rickman you're right, however, working at home you use an 'open' architecture which allows each PC to be a node and able to talk to other PCs.

DII (whichever flavour) is a single domain architecture, in other words ALL traffic has to pass through a server somwhere rather than connect to the other PC direct (a bit simplified but essentially accurate).

This brings 2 pionts to bear ont he issue:

1. Single point of failure
2. Network congestion increases with number of users.

If you think it's bad now wait till all users are on it . . . . .