Chaos at Terminal 5

[egbt]

It would appear a fair number of people are pretty ignorant of what and MBA involves, and exactly who does them. In fact, so much so that it appears to me some people are confusing an MBA with a masters degree.

It's you who are confused. My piece of parchment says "Master of Business Administration" and is rated and assesed as a higher degree. Lets not confuse the real thing with so called "executive MBAs" which are no such thing.

Firstly, they are very expensive and as such tend to be paid for by companies sponsoring an individual through the course. In a lot of instances, that individual keeps working within the company whilst doing that course. That is certainly not easy.

Agreed although I had to pay for most of mine.

Seocondly, within the UK at least, it is extremely unusual (although not unheard of) for someone in their 20's to be doing an MBA, as the criteria for acceptance onto the vast majority of the courses is a good degree of relevent industry experience, and an exisiting level of management understanding.

No so unusual as it should be, highest minimum age I have heard of is 27 and many do it earlier, that should not be allowed.

The important thing to remember with respect to an MBA is that if the individual concerned is an idiot prior to taking the course, they will still be an idiot after the course.

Quite.

It interests me that many purported airline pilots think all MBA's are :mad:. Let’s think about that.

Airline Pilot: leaves school at 18, does 12 - 14 months integrated course for an ATPL and c 250 hours. Would you put him or her in the left seat of a 747? No of course not, as the old saying goes it’s “a licence to learn”.

Manager: 1st degree possibly a couple of years in a non management job then a years post graduate higher degree. Should that person be employed in a position that can wreck a company? Again of course not – “it’s a licence to learn”.

Both jobs require experience and common sense. Part of the problem is you can test a pilot to make sure they are safe and generally competent, it’s difficult to do that with a manager and some recruitment people and managers think you can just throw an MBA without real experience in at the deep end. Well generally they are wrong.

A further complication is that an MBA is not necessarily a qualification to manage people or processes (although some is covered much is optional), an MBA is usually about running companies at a strategic level. To be a “real” senior manager / executive you need skills that come from an MBA, skills that come from a “proper” management course (Diploma in Management Science, Professional Diploma in Management etc) and thirdly and most important experience at (most) levels in the organisation.

The answer is to grow managers, with an MBA (and preferably a DMS) along the way. Not to try and get them straight out of the ivory tower educational establishments.

As you might have guessed I followed the longer route and did not start my (5 year) MBA until I was 40 with 8 years reasonably senior management experience and some consulting under my belt (after a career change in my late 20’s). For those of you still unconvinced perhaps I should say I work for the most successful company in our (manufacturing) sector in the world, about half of the senior executive management team have MBA’s all of whom (I think) got them relatively late in life, and half of my management team have them, we are doing very nicely thank you.

[Storminnorm]

I hate to see some of "These types of people" try to
brow beat,or bully others.
I came across a few in my Previous Existance, (when
I had to work), and I have, in my time, filled a few in.
Very satisfying sometimes.
More power to you, and the best of luck to all at BA
in the future.
It will be an uphill struggle though!:rolleyes:
Bu88er it, Missed post 767 Ah well;)

[Oh that's super!]

There are rubbish MBA holders who cannot manage or run anything to save their life. Just like there being rubbish airline pilots, rubbish doctors etc.

Having an MBA is no guarantee of anyone's ability to do their job well.

[muppitt]

In a statement to the House of Commons, the Aviation Minister has just admitted that the T5 Baggage Mountain stands at 28,000.

That's almost double what WW said on Saturday.

[lexoncd]

Kirkwood will have to go. 28,000 bags missing. Something around 500 flights cancelled or will be by the middle of this week at the daily cancellation rate.

When Exec Gold cardholders of over 20 years membership call it a day you've got a problem......

[PC767]

One of Willies quotes, when, I believe, addressing disgruntled LGW cabin crew.

'There's no value in loyalty'

This is the type of person we are dealing with at BA. And hasn't that quote turned around and bitten him on his ass. I believe a vast amount of the 400 volunteers are junior managers who have been given no option but to volunteer. My own manager admitted to me that she had no option but to volunteer.... it was expected of her.

[Fargoo]

I hate to see some of "These types of people" try to
brow beat,or bully others.
I came across a few in my Previous Existance, (when
I had to work), and I have, in my time, filled a few in.
Very satisfying sometimes.

Eh? Are you suggesting you want to fill me in?
I suggest you add me to your ignore list too :ugh:

[Storminnorm]

You're on the list son, O.K?:bored:

[gonebutnotforgotten]

From '13 Please', post #727:

The whole of BA staff, at LHR at least, have received emails asking for volunteers.They cannot get airside passes for non-airside staff. My sister, (non-airside), has volunteered, and spent time answering phones from pax, helping to rebook. unpaid

This partly confirms what I suspected and referred to in my previous effort (#694). What day 1 needed was armies of systems experts looking over the shoulders of the operatives both Land and Air side, but could they get passes for the latter? I suspect not, and from that point on, disaster was more or less assured. If BA management had dug their heels in and challenged DfT and BAA security, not only might we not be talking about it all now, but a blow for a bit of common sense in the security field might at last been struck (see countless moans in CHIRP about the same stupidity getting in the way of air safety)

My last posting crossed with 118.7's #692, which had this gem of an exchange from the Parliamentary Transport Select Committee hearing on the future of BAA (surely an oxymoron..any idea of the date, sir?)

Q253 Chairman: Mr Nelson, surely in the talks you have had with the airlines they cannot have been silent on this matter. Are you aware of any of the crews having difficulty getting through security and being delayed with an effect upon their flight time?

Mr Nelson: Chairman, I was certainly aware of the intensity of the problem in and around 10 August and beyond. I have not been made aware of this recently and the issues we tend to talk about in regular strategic dialogue with airlines is around control posts and less around the staff security.

Doesn't anyone there know what is going on daily?

[Storminnorm]

This security problem has been going on for years.
And no-one at the BAA could care less.

[FAStoat]

Slightly off the thread,but was not Tech BlockA,so called because it had been on the Drawings as TBA(To Be Announced)for so long,no one could remember what it was going to be called?They then decided to call them Tech Block A,B,C etc.A certain BA Senior Training Captain told me sad stories of chaos in those days.Does anyone remember Sid Davies,Tridextrous,and 1011,then757????

[gonebutnotforgotten]

Sorminnorm: This security problem has been going on for years.
And no-one at the BAA could care less.

Quite, but my point is that this is the first major project attempted since the lunatics had full run of the asylum. While we all know that normal operations are all but impossible with the levels of interference and bureaucracy imposed on us, trying something of this scale without major revisions to the security regime just put the whole project at risk. BA should have raised the stakes and refused to sign up without unfettered access being accorded to the necessary staff. :ugh:

[rubik101]

Seems we were misled earlier. As mentioned above, the true figure released by a question raised in Parliament today states that 28000 bags remain unprocessed in T5. The key word is 'remain' which means either BA/BAA were lying on Friday or it is going to get a whole lot worse before it will ever get any better. By April 1st it will quite possibly be 30000 and next week, 35000! Who knows?


What a shambles.

[CorkEICK]

Willie Walsh will be interviewed live on a Sky news programme at 1930hrs this evening by Jeff Randell

[ChristiaanJ]

Willie Walsh will be interviewed live on a Sky news programme at 1930hrs this evening by Jeff Randell
Links will be hugely appreciated by expats such as me who won't be able to watch it live.

[randomair]

It gets worse everyday:

British Airways flew into more trouble this morning after investment bank Goldman Sachs downgraded the stock from a "buy" to a "sell" saying lower revenue and oil prices would cut profits by up to 46 per cent.

British Airways is already reeling from the chaos in the opening days of its £4.3 billion Terminal 5 headquarters, which prompted a public apology from BA chief executive Willie Walsh.

The fiasco has resulted in 399 flights being cancelled up to and including Wednesday, with an estimated cost to the airline of £20 million so far.

Shares in the airline fell nearly 4 per cent to 230.75p in morning trading.
Related Links

Goldman Sachs has reduced its three month price target for the stock from 330p to 200p and has transferred it from its Pan Europe Buy List to its Pan Europe Sell List.

Goldman Sachs said in research published today: "We are cutting our 2009 and 2010 earnings estimates by 43 per cent and 46 per cent respectively, mainly due to the increase in oil price."

The broker now bases its BA forecasts on an oil price of $100 per barrel and warned: "We believe the revenue environment is deteriorating both from a demand and a competition point of view.

"On revenue, its challenges are the UK consumer, the weakness in the financial services industry, the increase in competition on the North Atlantic, the weakness in the US — its most important long-haul market — and the operational challenges of Heathrow," the broker said.

BA is facing increased competition on its most lucrative routes after the “open skies” agreement, which allows any European carrier to fly to any American city, came into force yesterday.

In addition, the airline still faces the threat of its pilots going on strike despite threats of industrial action over Easter being averted.

BA is in dispute with the British Airline Pilots Association (BALPA) over its plans to use non-BA pilots for its new service between Europe and the US.




The sweeping away of restrictive rules that govern transatlantic air travel could cost British Airways £250 million a year in lost profits.

From tomorrow, BA, which is reeling under a torrent of criticism for the chaos that has surrounded the opening of Terminal 5, its new base at Heathrow, will face increased competition on its most lucrative routes as the “open skies” era begins.

The agreement allows any European carrier to fly to any American city, effectively smashing the Heathrow cartel. To this end, on Sunday Continental, Delta US Airways and even Air France will muscle in on transatlantic services from Britain's largest airport. This is expected to drive down air fares, particularly in business class.

The arrival of new carriers at Heathrow is a particular threat to BA, which controls 40 per cent of the airport's slots and is the largest transatlantic carrier.

Airlines make almost no money on transatlantic economy fares but reap large profits from business and first-class passengers. BA is thought to make as much as 60 per cent of its profits from its Heathrow-to-New York operations alone.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Re #782 ...

Is this "Goodbye, BA" ?

Can it honestly survive T5, Open Skies and a strike?

I got rid of my shares years ago .... and my next trip in BA Club is a Sale Offer :uhoh:

[old,not bold]

Can it honestly survive T5, Open Skies and a strike?

Probably not, at least so long as the strike takes place, or is sufficiently likely to cause customers to look elsewhere, as I am presently doing for all flights I need in the next 3 months.

Which is probably why the US pilots are so supportive of the BA pilots in their grievances, and are encouraging them to go for it.

Perhaps just T5 and Open Skies will be enough.

But I believe that the majority of the blame lies with BAA for the T5 debacle; BA's biggest error was not to spot it coming, and to have ridiculous notions of the "big bang" transfer, in the face of their knowledge of BAA's appalling management.

Surely, when the groceries and drinks salesman who thought he could run an airport jumped ship on February 28th, BA's alarm system should have sounded off?

[hautemude]

Markets, companies and funds | View All (http://www.citywire.co.uk/personal/-/news/markets-companies-and-funds/list.aspx)
Morning Line: Why Willie Walsh must go

By Richard Lander (http://www.citywire.co.uk/personal/-/news/author.aspx?ClassificationScheme=AUTHOR&KeywordCode=AUTHORRLANDER) | 11:06:44 | 31 March 2008
I am not sure people have yet taken in the gigantic scale of the PR disaster that the Terminal Five fiasco has wrought on British Airways.
People who can change airlines are already doing so. Meanwhile those caught up in the T5 maelstrom of cancelled flights and lost bags are already Blackberrying their friends with tales of kitting out the kids with new ski outfits at £100 a go in Zermatt. Many of these people are lawyers and have already used said devices to dictate compensation letters to BA via their secretaries.
Walsh (http://www.citywire.co.uk/clickout.aspx?TargetURL=http%3a%2f%2fbapress.custhelp.com%2f cgi-bin%2fbapress.cfg%2fphp%2fenduser%2fstd_adp.php%3fp_sid%3d%2 6p_lva%3d%26p_faqid%3d7437&Code=ContentVersionID_301207&Internal=False) has only made things with his dreadfully insensitive remark on Friday that the debacle ‘was definitely not British Airways' finest hour.’
What an appallingly condescending soi-disant turn of phrase that was. How droll, how dry, how reminiscent of an MCC committee member chuntering on about another England batting collapse over the port (‘64-7 at lunch, eh Carruthers? Definitely not our finest hour’).
Willie, the umpire is in no doubt. You’re out.

[Mozart21]

So, let's be clear about this. My local hospital opens a new maternity unit and even without the ability to do dummy runs, manages to deliver all the babies, and some not expected on the specific day, without any EVIDENT problems. Lots of running around by staff, I am sure. But no chaos, no lost children, no delayed deliveries. And they had less than twenty years to plan the opening.

The difference is that the hospital understands what all the players want, including the mums to be and the dads to be. And the staff. And the unions....need I go on.
BAA/BA only understand the retailer. Not the passenger, not the crews, not the managers who work at the airports on a daily basis. Anyone tried to buy a cup of coffee in T2 at LHR in advance of the LX departure at 06:05? At T4 after 21:30 before the final departures of the day? Anyone succeeded??

[chrisbl]

BA is a dead firm walking. It is a relic of a day gone by and is not fit for the modern world of CAT.

Its cost base is too high, its aircraft are poor and its staff demotivated and intent on ensuring the company has not future.

Best thing would be for it to be shut down, sell off all the slots at Heathrow and give good value to the custmers.

I used to always make the effort to support BA come hell or high water especially as a passenger but not now.

ABBA - Anything But BA

[CorkEICK]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/livenewsevents

[stormin norman]

Has anyone seen the Chairman of BA or the board members this week ?.Some absent leader he's turning out to be.

The terminal is fantastic and will be great when its up and running but i wonder if the building contract stated 'finished' along with 'on time' and 'cost'.

[old,not bold]

"I take full responsibility"

"In a year's time I'll be sitting here"

Eh?

[Tigs2]

I can't believe that Sky are giving WW the opportunity to explain himself as they (and the BBC) were not allowed in the Terminal yesterday and I believe that they still are.

WW has so far said nothing other than 'its all my fault' blame me. He has mentioned that its not 28 000 bags, he had a briefing where he was told 19 000. I wonder who briefed the Aviation minister today??


He really doesn't come over very well at all does he!

[BerksFlyer]

Really hope someone mentions Kirkwood's performance.

Edit: Nope, nothing. All it was was Walsh taking the blame, nothing about what he's going to do about it and how he's going to do it.

[Squealing Pig]

WW does seem overly keen to take the blame, even when asked if BAA should take some blame too. Call me skeptical but.......£$£$£$

[crewmeal]

He was let off lightly by Jeff Randle, all he kept saying is 'we got it wrong' I wonder if Jeremy Paxman would have let him off lightly, I doubt it

[Two-Tone-Blue]

I was so impressed by his performance I shall fly with BA always ....




... until they go bust, or I can get a better airline.

[Walnut]

Just seen the W/W interview, two points struck me.

1/ He claimed things are getting better,,,,, why then are 50+ flights daily, almost 20% of the planned throughput still being canx.

2/ We must take advantage of the Open Skies opportunity,,,, ie there is going to be a head on dispute with the pilots if ?? the Courts rule in BALPAs favour.

My suggestion to him is he moves the 50+ flts back to T1 until the situation in T5 is stable. At least that way he will not be paying compensation to those pax on these canx flts.

Whose numbers on lost bags are right? His or the Government?

[brabazon]

Didn't see the interview, but the fact that a government minister gave out a baggage figure which BA doesn't recognise just adds to the apparent mess. :rolleyes:

[Hand Solo]

BA is a dead firm walking. It is a relic of a day gone by and is not fit for the modern world of CAT.

Jolly good. Remind me what sort of profit BA made last year.

Its cost base is too high, its aircraft are poor

Been analysing BA's costs have you? Or are you just jumping on a bandwagon? Perhaps you would like to put some flesh on the bones of your accusation that the aircraft are poor? In what way?

and its staff demotivated and intent on ensuring the company has not future.

I see, blame the staff. Are you BA staf chrisbl? Do you know any of them? Do you know all of them? Quite a generalisation you made there.

Best thing would be for it to be shut down, sell off all the slots at Heathrow and give good value to the custmers.

Interesting theory. Why not run the numbers and justification by us?

I used to always make the effort to support BA come hell or high water especially as a passenger but not now.

ABBA - Anything But BA

Grind grind grind goes the axe.

[BerksFlyer]

Its cost base is too high, its aircraft are poor and its staff demotivated and intent on ensuring the company has not future.



Brilliant entertainment :D

How can you say any of these things?

Pathetic statements.

[ukeng]

Extremely weak interview on Sky News - WW got off very lightly as did the head of Network Rail who did the following interview.
I could have asked more testing questions and would not have been fobbed off with WW's standard replies that he always uses "Determined", "I take full responsibility" etc.etc.

http://peach.bskyb.com/redirector.mp4?hb=DM530320KARC&cv.c1=Sky%20News-Randall|randall_21_310308_2030.mp4&cd=1&hec=1&vjs=HBX0201R&target=http%3A%2F%2Fskynews-clips.videoloungetv.com%2Fpublic%2Fskynews%2Fpodcast%2Franda ll_21_310308_2030.mp4

Podcast in mp4 format in the above link - full interview with WW.

[118.70]

gonebutnotforgotten picked up on my post #692 and I think asked in post #776 what was the date of the Transport Ctee hearing that Stephen Nelson attended. It was 28th November 2007.

Before him the airlines had had a chance to give their opinions on poor BAA service and unresponsive management. Some of those interchanges may be worth rereading :


Q152 Chairman: In what sense, numbers of staff, the training of staff, how precisely? I must have, I think, some clear indication of what the problems are.

Dr Ellis: The numbers of staff, particularly staff who can be called upon at short notice to beef up the arrangements. In British Airways, for example, we have staff who are prepared to come into the front line when there is disruption and I think there is a need for those types of provisions to be made within BAA. Clearly, we need a more flexible arrangement in terms of the infrastructure within the terminals to be able to expand the provision of lanes and bring additional equipment into use should the need arise.


Q169 Mr Wilshire: Our witnesses are three amongst probably hundreds of thousands of people who had good reason to moan about things, particularly at Heathrow. Could you tell us something about how you have found engaging with BAA to discuss those problems and what impact you have been able to have on getting things improved?

Dr Ellis: I will take the lead on this one. Under the auspices of the CAA there has been a process called "constructive engagement" between the airlines and BAA, both at Heathrow and at Gatwick. That has led to a richer sharing of information in some areas. In some aspects of the capital programme, for example, we are doing better on those. However, we are now at a point in the regulatory process where we can see that some of the investments we felt had been agreed through the constructive engagement process are now being reviewed and rolled back when it actually comes to the crunch in terms of the triggers which are being put on those investments and the reward that would flow to BAA. So we are part-way through a process. We have yet to see whether it actually produces the goods because with constructive engagement we can only in the end determine its success when we see delivery on the ground.

Mr Langford: May I say, in terms of on the ground operationally, I believe that over the past few years BAA has actually been less responsive to operational issues. I believe we had much more coordination with BAA and with the leadership at the airport terminals to handle operational issues and forecasting problems. I believe the focus has gone away from that and I do believe there needs to be some significant improvement in those areas.

Q170 Mr Wilshire: Before Mr Nicol answers, could I ask you when you noticed that change and why you think it happened?

Mr Langford: On the first part of the question, I would say over the past few years our access to senior leadership and our regular operational coordination has certainly deteriorated. I cannot comment as to why, but a number of people have departed BAA and their successors have not re-established those operational links as we had in the past.

Q185 Mr Scott: I have a brief question for all of the witnesses. Security is paramount. The most important thing for any passenger is now their security in travelling on airlines. You have said that there are problems with queues, et cetera, at all of the airports. Can you tell me of any experiences elsewhere in the world where they have got a much more successful way of dealing with this?

Mr Nicol: What we noticed after 10 August last year was that most airports very quickly—this is within the European sphere within which easyJet operates—got back to business. Luton Airport, which is sort of broadly comparable in size to Stansted, was back operating at a similar level to previously very quickly. What we noticed was that it was only the BAA airports which we operate from, Gatwick and Stansted (Stansted in particular) where there appeared to be problems.

Mr Langford: I have to say Manchester Airport responded, again, much more quickly and much more fully, and they were able to get back to business much more easily and there is a great deal more collaboration and information-sharing in Manchester, we found, than we had in the BAA airports.

Q200 Mr Leech: Mr Langford, you had pointed out that Manchester had dealt with issues surrounding security far better than BAA. What lessons do the three of you believe could be learned from Manchester, or is Manchester just a poor comparison with the BAA airports?

Mr Langford: Strictly from my own point of view, being an operator in Manchester, we found that the reaction time was much quicker in Manchester, that there was much more engagement much more quickly, much more information was shared.

Q201 Mr Leech: What is the reason for that?

Mr Langford: Their management structure, their management point of view. They are used to operating in that manner. My manager in Manchester is very close to the operating people and the senior people at Manchester Airport, which is less true of the London airports. I spoke about security and I spoke about efficiency. The line is open at five o'clock in the morning, for example. People show up very early because they hear about the problems at Heathrow. If there are not enough lines open at 5.00 am queues start to build up. Queues then attract other queues and your whole day has a problem due to a small miscalculation at five o'clock in the morning. The people at Manchester, we found, do not make those mistakes and they are much more constant in having people available at 5.00 am, and the day runs well. At Heathrow you tend to be on the back foot

[ChristiaanJ]

ukeng,
I agree. I could barely believe my ears.

[racasanman]

As ex BA staff I frequent a forum for ex staff from the regions and this little nugget has been posted which sums up BA management to a tee.
"One of Willy Walshs' henchmen rang
Manchester on Thursday or Friday (i wont mention any names as i dont
want to get anyone into trouble)and asked if they could send as many
spare staff from Manchester as they possibly could down to T5 to help
out in all the chaos of T5,Err,there is no staff at Manchester ha
ha,the person was told all BA staff were made redundant last August
and this person was shocked as he didnt know,he then said he would
ring Glasgow Err there are no staff there either.Apparantly this
person couldn't believe there were no staff at the regionals as Willy
had disposed of us all.

[exscribbler]

Unbelievable!:ugh: What a set of morons. Can they walk and talk at the same time?:}

[ChristiaanJ]

Can they walk and talk at the same time?
From earlier accounts, no. One of them talked... then walked away as fast as he could....

[747-436]

BAA is dying on its feet. Only a matter of time before its parts are sold off. But who will be brave enough to take on the monster of LHR?

Probably the UK Taxpayer!!!!

[BAengineering]

Willie Walsh Sky interview; my observations

When someone uses the word ‘honestly’ it generally means they are lying

WW - ‘but you know, ehhh, quite honestly, I’m bitterly disappointed that it wasn’t a success’

So what was he really thinking???? When asked about resigning states;

WW - ‘I’m more determined than I was the last time I was in here (sky studio) to make this work’

God help us if he’s more determined……

WW - ‘my position as CEO was I wasn’t going to celebrate after the first day, I I I never defined success as making it work on day one’

OK I really don't get that one Willie, it has been reported you were having a HOOLEY in Waterworld with all the special Waterwallowers. You were crowing at 6am on the news telling the world how F'in great it all was. You are factually a liar, simple as, pure blatent unadulterated fibbing. Sh1t party anyway, you couldn't even get that right, don't you know doughnuts are so fattening. Hope the Craic was good as it'll probably double as your leaving party. Did you say your goodbyes?

WW - ‘I think I said to you the last time I was in here that I would look back after the first year of operation’ ‘and say, you know, was that a success’

WHAT!!!!, what do you mean 'I think' surely your a switched on kid, surely Wee Willie you know, 'Oi Tinnk Oi said so'. You never did, you were always as 'to be sure' it;ll work on day one..... you;ve said so and promised many times... The video interviews are everywhere.

WW - ‘I have to take responsibility as the book rests with me’

What is this book resting with him? Is it the instruction manual for T5 that he won't share with anyone?

WW - ‘I thought we were ready but we clearly weren’t’

Now your getting to the real substance of the sorry affair, proper admission of lack of managerial integrity amongst your team. If you were not properly advised that the situation was so dire, whose head is going to role for effectively failing to provide you with the required foresight to call GO on T5 transfer? The truth is you are so arrogant that you couldn't help but march right on in. All the best general's in history have been satisfied to retreat if necessary, they do not see this as a weakness. All the worst generals, Gengis Khan included, let their reputation and individual arrogance cloud their decision making.

I am not saying I could do any better, not my field of expertise. I am saying that when your General displays the such poor judgement, arrogance and clearly does not have his lieutenant's working with him, it is only a matter of time before he is stripped of his stripes. Today that means resignation, sadly probably with a golden handshake.

Sorry for any typos.

[Joetom]

Just to add...

T1 and T4 ops normal......

Airline website shows PVG,IAD,LAX and JFK x 2 canx.

EWR just added to list....

It will be interesting to see how the T4 to T5 switch happons in July 2008...

[jshg]

Coming in to the London area our Approach Brief now includes the increased MSA caused by the baggage mountain at T5.

[Joetom]

BA Engineering.........

How about taking a day off...

But.... BBC2 has just stated 28K of baggs still floating about in T5.

Am sure T5 will be ok when KLM/AF take it over......

[PAXboy]

chrisbl... aircraft are poor and its staff demotivated and intent on ensuring the company has not future.

My word but you do talk some rubbish!! In the past 20 years it is the staff who have consistently made travelling with BA a pleasure. I have always enjoyed travelling with BA on their lovely a/c which have always been clean and serviceable.

The reason that I have used them less than others is because of the mgmt's Dirty Tricks on VS. The mgmt were at fault then and the evidence is that they are at fault now.

As to whether the airline has a future, that depends on many things, mainly the City. We will not know the answer for another few months.

[TURIN]

No staff at Manchester or Glasgow...

I must be a figment of my own imagination then! :\

Maybe that 'number withheld' call I missed today was a cry from the south. :suspect:

[BAengineering]

Joetom,

Sorry mate, I can't I have this problem, I'm a dedicated sort, you know very quiet normally, until something really bugs me, pushes me over the edge, then BOOM..... it all comes out and I stay committed till the bitter end.

I like to think of my self as a RAMBO character, he displayed and uncanny committment to the cause, a little OVER THE TOP (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093692/) at times but always won through in the end. The sort of bloke you'd like to be friends with as if you get on the wrong side, God help you.:=

Anyway Joe or Tom have I offended you in anyway? I hope my postings have merely been reflective of the massive balls up that T5 is...

I will not rest until heads roll from the leadership team, till they lay off our esteemed pilot colleagues. Anyway I do most of it in worktime, so relax BA are paying for the bad press... In more ways than one.....

And I love your posts, they are a little bit more moderate than mine but still in synch with my polerised views

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTcwNDgxNTQ2Ml5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwOTc1ODEyMQ@@._V1._SY400_ SX600_.jpg

[saintjoseph]

slitting your stomach with a sword in japan is known as seppuku! it really would be the best thing in the circumstances. other forums are suggesting barbara cassani for the ceo role. i think it would signal a proactive stance. because god knows we need one.

[BAengineering]

GOBONASTICK QUOTE - Just what we need. Wasters with no prospects (and their thick bimbos) breeding to create half a dozen more wasters with no prospects.

Nature has a simple rule: those unable to fend for themselves, and who can't provide a meaningful contribution, die.

Our society goes against this basic survive-and-develop pattern, by pandering to these drains on society, mistakenly labelling it 'compassion'. Bollocks.

I was particularily offended by your comment regarding 'customer satisfaction' and the possible BA pilot strike. You are a tosser, neither of these issues have anything to do with customer satisfaction. T5 is a simple matter of piss poor planning and management lack of competence. (bolstered by a demoralised workforce)

The pilot issue is related to ongoing attempts by Willie et al to screw the last remaining section of BA that had managed to maintain its dignity. All other sections have rolled over or bent over for management.

Our customers, the ones that pay our wages are generally doing so because they elect to choose a quality product. The product does not arrive to the market in its quality condition through chance or management aggression. No, it arrives there throught the input of professional input. Those qualified and knowledgable Engineers that keep the 'product' fit for purpose and the pilots that utilise the 'product' to the best effect, for the benefit of our paying customers.

Customer satisfaction is not in question, BA pilots are reknowned for going the extra mile for our customers, so GOBONASTICK another waterwarbler troll, go play with the intranet!

Your earlier posting which I harvested from this site demonstrates your superior hubristic attitude. (very aligned with willie) Your facist attitude will be very welcome within the BA press department, with their censorship and obvious influence within the BBC, if your not already working there I'm sure they would let you in.:ok:

[rubik101]

In light of the news that some Gulf State airlines are to open bases in LHR, I predict the following.
In the past, the global hubs for long-haul centred on the East coast of the USA, Europe, LHR, CDG, FRA, Asia and the Pacific rim. With the advent of the super long-range aircraft and the A380, the European hubs will be by-passed. Why stop over in LHR when you can either go direct or fly one-stop via the Gulf of Arabia? LHR will become a destination and not a transit stop, with good reason.
Transit passengers will avoid LHR if at all possible and choose to take the far superior product pairing of airline and airport for their journey in the future. The demise of LHR might be a long way off but I predict it will happen in time.
The Gulf Airlines are moving in now to poach customers to their product and once secured will drain passengers away from the established, worn-out airports to the new airports springing up all over the Gulf.
At least two terminals in LHR will close within the decade.
I'm just surprised it hasn't happened sooner.

[kingdee]

Vanderlande of Holland installed the baggage system .Now i am understood to beleive that the system is only as good as the operater.E.G. Checkin scan bag ( someone looks at x-ray and presses accept/reject) .Surley this is BAA security problem , However i beleive it is the problem of dealing / unloading the amount of bags into the fully containerised baggage hall.

Mr Walsh i loads of experience of this and i bet you aint even been down to the Baggage area.

Suggest you go and look at schipol etc ..

[Hand Solo]

In light of the news that some Gulf State airlines are to open bases in LHR

Really? Which airlines? First I'd heard about it, but I know a few people who'd be interested

In the past, the global hubs for long-haul centred on the East coast of the USA, Europe, LHR, CDG, FRA, Asia and the Pacific rim. With the advent of the super long-range aircraft and the A380, the European hubs will be by-passed. Why stop over in LHR when you can either go direct or fly one-stop via the Gulf of Arabia? LHR will become a destination and not a transit stop, with good reason.

Except thing you overlooked is that the biggest long haul travel market in the world is between Europe and North America. It's rather difficult to do that via the Middle East, so unless you think North Americans are about to stop visiting Europe or vice versa the European hubs are going to be fairly busy. The advent of super long range aircraft (which the A380 isn't) doesn't really change that much. Yes you can now fly Dubai - New York non-stop, but how many people would need a connection at either end? Once you throw that requirement in the European hubs are back in the game. It'll take you 17 hrs 40 to get from JFK to BOM on Emirates with just two departures per day. To fly that route on BA will take you between 17 hrs and 20hrs depending on which of BA's 7 JFK departures you choose to leave on. That looks pretty competitive to me.

[Bill of the Hamptons]

So Willy only expects to be judged after a year of operation of T5. Well that's all right then, a fair chance that things could be OK by then with or without his "help"! Not sure the customers/shareholders will be quite so forebearing?

Of course once things are bedded down the next objective of Willy and Deadwood will be to "maintain performance with a smaller head count",showing the door to some of the recent "volonteers "no doubt, rewarding themselves with yet another "performance"bonus?:ok:

Still, that's modern "management" for you!! Make a quick buck, with luck move on before the s..t hits the fan but if the worst comes to the worst take a hefty pay out and move on to create havoc elsewhere.

Willy and Deadwood are really men of their time, so "Sub Prime".

[kingdee]

PLS pm me i can sort it out:cool:

[infrequentflyer789]

So, let's be clear about this. My local hospital opens a new maternity unit and even without the ability to do dummy runs, manages to deliver all the babies, [...]
The difference is that the hospital understands what all the players want, including the mums to be and the dads to be.

Offtopic, but if that was an NHS hospital then you're very lucky in my experience. What I've seen (&heard) of NHS maternity care is much more like T5 - staff on the ground trying to do a good job but frustrated by under-resourcing (equipment, facilities and people), bad management, bad planning etc. As to what we wanted, they might have understood (we spent long enough explaining) but they were completely incapable of delivering it.

[Phileas Fogg]

The NHS is underfunded, are BA & BAA likewise underfunded?

[Hand Solo]

Of course they are. All the better to pay for the bonusses and dividends. The cash certainly doesn't filter anywhere close to the front line in BA.

[BAengineering]

http://www.britishairways.com/cms/global/assets/images/local/uk/homepage/static_images/wearesorry.jpg (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/t5message/public/en_gb)


We're sorry

We are extremely sorry for the disruption our customers flying from Terminal 5 have experienced since the building opened on Thursday 27 March.

We accept the level of service we have provided has not been good enough. We are working hard to overcome the initial operational difficulties we have encountered.

[BAengineering]

The following taken straight from the pathetic apology site on BA.con

Flight information, Monday 31 March 2008 – Wednesday 2 April 2008

We are operating the vast majority of flights to and from Heathrow Terminal 5 and we continue to work towards increasing the number of services planned to operate in the days ahead.

Tuesday 1 April, 342 out of 392 flights to and from Terminal 5 will operate.
Wednesday 2 April we plan to operate 342 out of 392 flights to and from Terminal 5.


Since when can cancelling 50 of your plan of just short of 400 be the vast majority? To knock out 13% of your plan cannot be stated as being close to operating the vast majority.. You cannot delude the public by going into denial of the truth.

50 flights will mean at least 10,000 passengers who will not be travelling as planned.

Oh that 'we're sorry' over the top of the BA.com picture of T5 is just classic!! Whoever thought that up at BA is going places, what a bunch of plebs.

We're sorry for you too!

[HotDog]

They must have consulted with Kevin Rudd.:sad:

[J1J]

As a Brit living in Hong Kong I am ashamed of what I have been seeing in the press, all be it the typical Brit mentality of bashing anything we do, however in this case, they have exposed what a hash was made of the move.

I never recall the move from Kai Tak to Chep Lap Kok being such a bun fight, why can it be done here and not in the UK. I can only guess its down to management or more appropriately mis-management.

Sadly I am not surprised that the "lowest common denominator" style of management so frequently seen in British Business, has produced such a huge mess up, on what should have been a proud moment in British and Global transport history. A golden opportunity to shine lost.

[threemiles]

It'll take you 17 hrs 40 to get from JFK to BOM on Emirates with just two departures per day. To fly that route on BA will take you between 17 hrs and 20hrs depending on which of BA's 7 JFK departures you choose to leave on. That looks pretty competitive to me.

This is an unrealistic marketing perception, but perception by the flying public is to avoid Heathrow is priority number one. You will get the 17hrs or even 20 hrs on BA only if everything works perfect and you're not stuck in security queues, there are no notorical ATC delays etc. Not mentioning hazzle and hectic. I was stuck more than once overnight in Heathrow because I missed a late wave departure. Poor and up to rude service add to that. Therefore building T5 to overcome this perception was the right way. Unfortunately it did not work out.

[fermented herring]

To spend 3 bln GBP (I think it is?) to build a shelter that load and un load people from some aircraft is in itself quite fascinating.

To fail to include a decent migration plan and implementation within that amount could hardly be attributed to anything else than lack of insight?

[BusyB]

KC,

Yes true but, HKG airport moved 30 miles with all equipment and all flights not just a new terminal.

A better HKG comparison is the opening of T2 there. In SIN the opening of T2 there.

How do they rate.:}

[PartickThistleNil]

BA engineering

Give it a rest.

I'm amazed at the apparent pleasure you are taking from the problems BA are experiencing.

If you really hate BA that much, go and work somewhere else.

Also, I would say 87 per cent is the 'vast majority'. BA cancels more flights on a windy or foggy day at Heathrow.

[BAengineering]

Get you Mr Thistle, maybe reference your prickly response. Please be a little more specific. Oh, sorry to say i & you will probably both be searching for a job after the dust settles on this one.

No i do not take pleasure, its a sad day for BA and all its employees.

Have checked it out on YAHOO questions, the general body of opinion is that the VAST Majority would be anything approachig the total. The concensus was 98%.

[custard guts]

Should have given T5 to Virgin. At least they are a world class airline......

[BAengineering]

Just read all 3 of partickthistlenils posts, all positive for BA and just 3 posts since joining in 1999. Nothing, not even a glimmer of disgust. The heavey smell of a waterwallower exudes from this poster.

Have BA taken out a whole load of IDs on here so they can chat to themselves? It certainly looks like it.

Look instead of hassling me about my postings, which I think are fair critcism, indeed they are very much in line with papers and news broadcasting, and colleagues, why don't you go and start moving some of those 28,000 bags around.

[old,not bold]

Reuters has just broken the news, from a Dubai Government source, that Ferrovial is seriously considering a bid from Emirates for Heathrow, as a stand-alone business.

This has been put together over the last 4 days by the airline's bankers, and is guaranteed by the Dubai Government.

The very well-kept secret is the source of rumours about "Gulf airlines seeking to set up hubs at Heathrow".

Emirates, in effect the Government of Dubai, plans to take over T5 for itself, possibly buying BA at market value to secure its slots and traffic rights.

The multi-billion dollar plan has, according to Reuters who are citing off-the-record interviews with Dubai and British Government sources, as well as the financial industry, an 80% chance of success.

Emirates is reported to have set a deadline to complete negotiations of 3oth June 2008. A senior Emirates executive is quoted as saying privately "there's no reason for delay, and the sooner we get in there to sort it out the quicker and less expensive it will be to do that. We will do a better job than the Irish and Spanish have done, in sha'Allah, but that's not very difficult."

[BillS]

Dysag

Not today......

[BAengineering]

THe papers are really waking up to the sheer magnitude of this;

Herald Tribune - BA's Terminal 5 proving to be one big hub of chaos (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/31/business/airport.php)

Boston Globe - Chaos at Heathrow could hit British Airways hard (http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2008/04/01/chaos_at_heathrow_could_hit_british_airways_hard/)

Telegraph - Heathrow Terminal 5 debacle 'damages UK' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/01/nheathrow101.xml)

Guardian - Ministers attack BA over Terminal 5 fiasco as chaos continues (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/apr/01/transport.britishairwaysbusiness)

So irrespective of my postings, the world is watching:sad:

[etrang]

Dysag, have you noticed the date today?

[old,not bold]

Dysag

No genuine Irishman was ever called Maurice.

[PartickThistleNil]

BA engineering


What's wrong with trying to be positive about the company I work for?

If we all adopted your attitude we may as well give up.

I am as disappointed by the events of the last few days as anyone else.

But I am glad that you are so busy helping out that you are able to post your rants on here every few minutes.

Well done.

[Joetom]

One thing for sure, with the price of Oil the way it is, the Oil men have loads of cash, they can pick and choose where they put it. Would guess lots of it is being placed for the long term.

[overstress]

BAengineering

If you are really working for BA and posting at the same time then words fail me. You must either be able to hide and skive with great skill, or no-one else cares.

Either way, please give it a rest.

[Seat62K]

I am not surprised by the Terminal 5 fiasco. The sheer foolishness of some managerial decisions over the years has astounded me. Let me cite one example. A few years ago a decision was made to shorten the opening hours of the Arrivals Lounge at Terminal 4. (By the way, ba.com was not immediately updated to show this.) I arrived one afternoon from Vancouver expecting to be able to shave, have a shower and perhaps some food before leaving the airport only to be denied admission. Now, how much money did BA save by doing this? How much passenger goodwill was lost? What kind of manager makes/approves a decision like this? If someone reading this has knowledge of this particular decision, I, for one, would love to know how it came about.

[stormin norman]

day 6 since the opening and still no sight or sound from the chairman M. Broughton or the board.

Thinking of calling the Police ,they must be somewhere ?

[Knocers]

Amazing and pretty scaring this thing

[Blink182]

day 6 since the opening and still no sight or sound from the chairman M. Broughton or the board.

Thinking of calling the Police ,they must be somewhere ?


They are still scoffing the congratularly doughnuts...............

But where is Deadwood ????? Still running away from the press ????

[san diego]

The ba website proudly displays arrival and departure times that suggest things might be getting back to normal. I arrived on BA 1403 on Sunday evening, according to the website we 'arrived' at 2024, only 59 minutes late. In reality with no stand for 30 minutes and a further hour and a half for a set of steps to all us to escape, we actually arrived at the terminal 2 hours later than stated. By then all connections had been lost, the hold doors were only just being opened at 2225, no doubt to avoid increasing the baggage mountain and universally everyone on board said they would never fly BA again.

Of course some of us will, I regret having 8 more bookings from T5, but there appears to have been no crisis planning at all, inadequate equipment available, after all a set of steps for an A319 cannot be that difficult to find surely, and no visible management at all. The crew remained cheerful but apologetic ('there is nothing you can say that we haven't already heard'), the passengers discussed opening the doors and pulling the red handle as shown on the safety video but for many, making non-BA connections, the reality was probably having to buy a new ticket at considerable cost. They certainly will not fly BA again.

[WHBM]

Moving on and getting out of all this ......

The BA board must be considering their route forward.

Walsh is obviously finished but the question for the board is who to replace him with. Can't be shot of him until someone new is in place, because after this Walsh will have to be gone the day the announcement is made. Names in the hat anyone? Is Barbara Cassini available ?

Secondy Broughton has to tell Gordon Brown directly (as the current Secretary for Transport is the worst plonker in that post since Nicholas Ridley - hmmm, no, actually she's worse) that stupid nonsenses by the DfT, in particular security rules that achieve nothing for security, have been a key contributor to all this. But Brown will not be receptive unless Broughton tells him what he is going to do from the BA side as well.

Brown can then get the chairman of Ferrovial over to tell them that unless they change both spending and attitudes on what they do they can count themselves out of the UK market for a long tme, both BAA and their various construction companies (much of whose work is for government bodies).

It is obviously time also for BA PR (who write about a fantasy world) to be pointed at pastures new as well.

[cjhants]

overstress post 846
hiding and skiving are part of the proud tradition in BA, from the top down;)

[OverFlare]

Seat62K

I work for BA. I don't know how or why the decision to close the T4 arrivals lounge was taken but it is typical of BA management - they will waste a lot of effort trying to save money in ways that end up costing them a lot more. It is worth remembering that our managers could not care less about you. T5 is the same - we cut manpower to the bone because T5 was meant to require fewer people - look at us now, cancelling flights because we don't have enough baggage loaders to operate the system or cabin crew to operate flights.

T5 is turning into the most embarrassing disaster ever and with BA all in one place at Heathrow, it will soon become very very clear that the mess is our fault. If it doesn't change there will be no bookings for next year and we'll go the way of Sabena.

Partick Thistle Nil

As for why I, for one, will not go volunteering to help my employer out of its difficulties even though I'm sat at home on a day off? Perhaps because for the past few months they have been calling me, along with over 3000 other pilots, a "contaminant" who is unfit to operate their new Open Skies operation. You reap what you sow and, frankly, BA can f**k off.

OverFlare.

[FAStoat]

Another 50 Flights today have been cancelled.With the flights back,surely this makes 100.Anyway Willy Wonka can claim BA has gone Green by reducing his Co2,so maybe get an award!!!!All he is good for is making Chocolate Kettles.FUBAR,still SNAFU,run by WAFUs.Just like New Labour -Honesty- a LIE,a Challenge- a total cock up.No idea where his staff has gone-made redundant some time ago!!!!Memories of the Hitler Bunker.:eek:

[DISCOKID]

BAengineering confessed in an earlier post that he doesn't work for BA and BA stands for "big aircraft" so stop taking his bait - he doesn't work for BA.

BMIengineering is probably a more appropriate name for him

[HKPAX]

J1J a couple of pages back says that when Hong Kong's new airport opened there weren't such problems as with LHR T5. Sorry, but that simply ain't true: there were significant problems on gate allocations and other passenger issues - which were sorted out after a couple of days - but humungeous problems on cargo handling which took more than a couple of weeks to fix and cost massive losses for cargo owners. There was a public enquiry and heads rolled. (Wonder if you guys back in DOB will be afforded that privilege: will Gordon Mugabe allow it?).
Can't help observing that Shanghai opened a new terminal a couple of days ago and are doing it in BITE SIZED CHUNKS. Did BA really have to move so much over in one go?
P.S. Why do all these new terminals look the same?

[FAStoat]

I am afraid in is Country,NO ONE in POWER ever seems to he held responsible for their actions,except those in the front line.President Blair and his cronies started this,and the Joe Public is so apathetic at offering opposition,it continues.Speaker Martin is laid bare as an absolute crook-WHy is he still there,even now trying to stop MPs expenses,second house allowances etc from being published.Wily wonka can take a look at all around him,so why shouldhe resign.HOWEVER,when the ABMP(Absolutely bloody minded passenger) rightly looks at his choices at LHR or elsewhere,he might never fly with BA again.Only when this has brought BA to its knees ,will the Powers that Be be forced to look at their own situation.Then the Shareholders can force the issue,as they look at their dwindling assets.This T5 problem will not go away,when the contents of threads here so strongly point to an horrendous internal Management problem.This will not be sorted as quickly as Hong Kong either,because of the same.Its all very well WW saying the Buck stops with me,but his colleagues at the top put this into motion,so they must be called into account.Up the whistleblowers like BA Eng,and other BA staff.Without them nothing will happen.Yet if you leave the stand 15 mins late,or have to have a Baggage check and the resultant delay,or use more than "sword" fuel,you will find a Text for "Swords and Medals" on a day off.Its the Front End that always carry the can for gross incompetence at the Top.!!!!!!Hubris,Nemesis,ATE--------the end:=

[Seat62K]

Thanks, Over Flare, for your feedback.
I do wonder the degree to which senior management has been insulated from customer dissatisfaction. Just look at BA News and the constant "boosterism" about just how good the airline is supposed to be. For example, crowing about how good service recovery is. My more recent experience is of waiting months for email complaints to be responded to and even, on one occasion, a claim that my emails could not be found.
Service recovery at BA has not always been bad. I remember when the company restored my goodwill by crediting my Executive Club account with complimentary BA Miles. This constituted reasonable compensation, in my view. Willie Walsh has spoken about "getting the basics right" but this hasn't been happening, as the events at T5 show so clearly.

[ukeng]

I suggest you either follow your own advice and go move bags, or go fix one of our many poorly maintained aeroplanes.

Whilst not agreeing with "BAEngineering"s spam posting of links to media websites , words fail me when you make the above suggestion.
Our aircraft are not poorly maintained and I believe that is an incredible slur on the hundreds of hard working engineers who maintain the fleet to an extremely safe and high standard.
Absolutely no need for comments like that :mad:

[Xeque]

Looking for a new CEO BA? How about Colin Marshall?

[VintageKrug]

It will take more than volunteers to solve the problems
The ba website proudly displays arrival and departure times that suggest things might be getting back to normal. I arrived on BA 1403 on Sunday evening, according to the website we 'arrived' at 2024, only 59 minutes late. In reality with no stand for 30 minutes and a further hour and a half for a set of steps to all us to escape, we actually arrived at the terminal 2 hours later than stated. By then all connections had been lost, the hold doors were only just being opened at 2225, no doubt to avoid increasing the baggage mountain and universally everyone on board said they would never fly BA again.

Of course some of us will, I regret having 8 more bookings from T5, but there appears to have been no crisis planning at all, inadequate equipment available, after all a set of steps for an A319 cannot be that difficult to find surely, and no visible management at all. The crew remained cheerful but apologetic ('there is nothing you can say that we haven't already heard'), the passengers discussed opening the doors and pulling the red handle as shown on the safety video but for many, making non-BA connections, the reality was probably having to buy a new ticket at considerable cost. They certainly will not fly BA again.

---------

san diego - I was on this flight too, seated in 1A.

Prompted to join by reading you post.

Absolute shambles with over eight BA personnel moseying round with hands in pockets and arms crossed; any idiot could have told them to use the steps from the aircraft next door, which eventually they did.

Thank heavens I had no connecting flights and plenty of reading material to make the time productive.

[Railgun]

In a feeble attempt to get more staff to help out in T5 BA managment at waterworld have been phoning the regional airports asking for the likes of edi, man and gla to send any spare ground staff down to help out... O those would be the ones willie got rid of last year...

[Seat62K]

I'm no expert, but Barbara Cassani's name has been mentioned on this thread. I think the decision to sell Go was a monumental error committed by senior BA management.

[Bearcat]

I'd like to propose Max Mosley to replace Mr. Walsh. It appears Mr Mosley may have a lot of spare time in the future...........

Jokes aside, is Willys position untenable?

[VintageKrug]

I actually think it's very tenable.

Kirkwood will be made the fall guy for the inept management of the T5 debut. Poor, quivering chap that he was reading his prepared statement and refusing questions on Friday, before, Zimbabwe-like, BA's tightly-honed PR machine swung into action and alienated the last vestiges of the British media who might not have put the boot in.

Walsh is not popular, but when was popularity been a requirement of a successful CEO?

He has cut, cut, cut and whichever side of the fence you look at, this has delivered waht the Board wanted - a 10% margin.

The cuts came home to roost with lack of planning and training for T5. But that is strictly an operational matter. And it will be operational management who will bear the brunt of that.

There is even a school of thought which says BA will receive more in compensation from BAA written into the original T5 contract which disincentivesed them from investing in proper training to the required extent rather than the window dressing which was carried out.

It's an impressive terminal, and once the glitches are sorted it will be a great benefit to BA, and confidence will eventually recover. People have shorter memories than one imagines.

[marlowe]

Kirkwood will escape being sacked, he very good at deflecting incoming fire and deflecting it elsewhere he is a past master at it if i was below him though i would be getting my CV up together!!!!

[chris weston]

Awww let's stay with the joke Bearcat, Willys are reported as part of a current problem for Max surely ................!

CW

[Storminnorm]

Has anyone at BA thought of contacting Robert Mugabe
to become the new CEO?
He should (?) be available fairly soon.:cool:

[Seat62K]

I suppose the depressing reality is that those outside the company with the real power to change things at BA are only interested, primarily, in two things: profit levels and the share price. Perhaps, given all the false dawns at BA, what the company really needs, though, is a fresh start with new people at the top.

[FAStoat]

You are obviously not a Driver!!The Crew would have been totally stuck where they were,either on the ramp waiting(park brake on)or at a Stand waiting for the Finger,or as in 45% of T5 stands where NO finger is available,waiting for the GROUND SERVICES company to pull their finger out and produce the steps and the Dispatcher producing a Bus.Even if,as on some A/C,the Crew have their own steps available,they can not deploy,until there is somewhere for the Pax to go!!You can not have them milling about Airside.A Skipper mate of mine was threatened with "Off Roster",when he allowed Pax off to Ident their own Bags,due to 2 pissed nonarrivals!!There was pandemonium-he should have waited until more Staff arrived to control the issue.As has been reported throughout this thread,there does not appear to be the Extra Staff,since they were made redundant on Willy Winkers arrival at BA.Maybe Handsolo,who must be Cabin Staff,can shed a bit more light on BA SOPs,in this matter.However,the problem is common to All airlines,so I can only report my experiences,which I have relaid above!!In the old days,you had Servisair(Circusair),Gatwick Handling,BA Handling,AerLingus Handling or whatever.As Captain,you could shout till you were blue in the face,it would make no difference,except you could relay your problems to the Pax,with a good heart!!BA has its own Handling,so if there is none available-then so be it-you join the queue and wait to be out of hours.That the way life is-you shovel **** uphill until you are a manager!!!!:ugh:

[groundhand]

Quoting FAStoat:
You are obviously not a Driver!!The Crew would have been totally stuck where they were,either on the ramp waiting(park brake on)or at a Stand waiting for the Finger,or as in 45% of T5 stands where NO finger is available,waiting for the GROUND SERVICES company to pull their finger out and produce the steps and the Dispatcher producing a Bus

Ah, that would be the professionals at BA then!!

GH

[Storminnorm]

I really miss BAengineering. Who upset him?:sad:

[Sallyann1234]

The Crew would have been totally stuck where they were,either on the ramp waiting(park brake on)or at a Stand waiting for the Finger,or as in 45% of T5 stands where NO finger is available,waiting for the GROUND SERVICES company to pull their finger out and produce the steps and the Dispatcher producing a Bus.

Questions:
1. With this wonderful new £4billion terminal, why do 45% of the stands not have a Finger? Is that just down to lack of space? Would more space have been available without a shopping mall?

2. Given that T5 has been operating at only a small fraction of its intended capacity, why is to necessary for ANY pax to be bussed to the terminal?

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Re #878 ... I was just going to ask that question!!

I've just spent the last 45 minutes trawling over the BA T5 "glossy brochure", I've looked at the latest Google Earth imagery ... and the "Piers v. Coaches" equation seems so 20th Century I'm bemused.

Could this paying punter be enlightened by the in-house experts, please?

[jet_noseover]

On a lighter note....

http://travel.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/travel/article3659364.ece :)

[biddedout]

I like Silverjet's style. Advertising at the bottom of ths page below 800 posts on why not to use T5.

:D

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Great for those who want NY or Dubai. Not so good for Dulles.
I bet MaxJet wish they were still around to capitalise on events.

[Tiger]

jet noseover.. that is fab!! Love it. :)

Lets see if BA and will`hard tries to stop that game:mad:

[FAStoat]

Willy Wonka's Chocolate Kettle Factory cost cutting must be the cause of lack of stands with Fingers!!!???As far as Crews are concerned they are a VITAL part of the system.Everyone can board without the weather interferring,and the Dispatcher is usually on hand to discuss problems with the Captain.Load sheets can be signed without being destroyed by Rain,Sleet,Snow,and high winds that are part and parcel of the way of life with climate change.It seems very strange does'nt ,but on the blurb that came out prior to the opening,I noted with interest that there was 45%without this piece of equipment in the State of the Art T5!!!!!!!You talk to Crews and this may just be their cause of dispair.another part is that you can not park an A/C on a stand without that being vacant.The Taxi ways do not leave enough space for A/C stacked in a queue,so the same old problem arises that puts you in Ockham,Lam,Bov holds just burning fuel waiting for a place to park.This is particularly prevalent at Stanstead,but LHR has no more runways,since it shut 05/23,so more Aircraft just aggravate the already problem.Put a weather factor of fog,where taxiing A/C can not stop at various points near the Holding points,and poor Air Traffic have a nightmare scenario,like DeGaulle,with A/C movements they can not see.With Gov,co.uk positively encouraging more and more users of LHR with their open skies policy,more congestion is on its way.It is becoming the worst major Airport in Europe,with BA fronting it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Dont think BA ENG has given up!!He has to sleep.and has entertained everyone on this thread with inside info on the internals at BA,which is frightening.He will be back,I am sure:ok:

[Suzeman]

1. With this wonderful new £4billion terminal, why do 45% of the stands not have a Finger? Is that just down to lack of space?

Well airbridges used to cost £250-350k a pop a few years ago so I guess that cost was an issue.:E

And how many stands are remote and not adjacent to the terminal -those won't have bridges I suppose ?

Looking forward to my trip through T5 in August......:eek:

Suzeman

[Rob Courtney]

Going through tomorrow :eek: from Manchester and back on Friday, Ive already decided on just a carry on bag so as not to lose my luggage. If I can log on tomorrow I will let you know how I get on.

Rob

[Seat62K]

Interesting comments, VintageKrug, but I'm not sure about passengers' short memories. Consider the relative success of Europe's three largest "legacy" carriers. Between 1998 and 2006 RPKs at BA grew only 2.6% from 112,029 million to 114,896 million. In the case of Lufthansa the growth was 40.9%, from 81,401 million to 114,672 million. Air France, not even in the world's "top 10" in 1998 in terms of RPKs, was placed fourth in 2006 (and this excludes KLM) behind American, United and Delta, with 123,458 million. Now I know that there might be factors unique to the German and French carriers' growth, but might this not also point to BA's long-term decline (and to its over-reliance on the truly awful LHR)?

[BerksFlyer]

Going through tomorrow :eek: from Manchester and back on Friday, Ive already decided on just a carry on bag so as not to lose my luggage. If I can log on tomorrow I will let you know how I get on.

Went there and back to Edinburgh, no baggage, painless experience. As long as you have no baggage it should be fine.

[overstress]

FAStoat is the same person as BAengineering.

[Tigs2]

overstress

FAStoat is the same person as BAengineering

Why do you say that. One writes as an engineer, the other writes as a pilot (meaning what/how they discuss certain of expertise)

[Bristol based Taffy]

Superb little ditty from Kalium Chloride

Still in a fix - need Terminal SIX :D:D

Might want to see if you can 'copyright' that statement. I've a feeling BAA might just want to use it soon :E

[vanHorck]

Brilliant!

[Eboy]

"FedEx handled about 800 bags at Heathrow yesterday and plans to deliver about that many bags again today, spokeswoman Sally Davenport said. The Memphis, Tennessee-based company has an ongoing relationship with British Airways and has helped the carrier handle passenger baggage in the past, she said."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a.wyUNSSNsYM&refer=worldwide

[Suzeman]

Sorry if this has been posted earlier - can't keep up with the thread.

I seem to think that someone made a comment about how inconspicuous BAA had been in all this. Well I have just found the article below in UK Airport News.

BAA's new chief executive, Colin Matthews, flew into a storm at Heathrow Terminal 5. He has started his job early to help cope with the problems, the Independent reports.
Mr Matthews was due to start on Tuesday (April 1), but attended the T5 opening at 04:00 last Thursday. He then stayed for two days to help deal with the chaos caused by the failure of the baggage-handling system. A spokesman for BAA told the newspaper: ‘He has been working flat out, helping us sort out the problems. He is firmly on board.’

So that's all right then.....:D

Suzeman

[Sunfish]

I'm going to make a guess here.


I work for BA. ...........................................T5 is the same - we cut manpower to the bone because T5 was meant to require fewer people - look at us now, cancelling flights because we don't have enough baggage loaders to operate the system or cabin crew to operate flights.

There is a school of thought in IT management (and consultants like McKinsey's, Accenture, etc.) that suggests that if you are going to change to a new computer system that is supposed to produce manpower savings, then you need to sack the supposedly surplus staff before the system goes live and make those who are retained run the new system from day one.

The logic of this position is that if you don't do the change this way, those "under threat" will carefully embed themselves into the new system, complicate it, and that when you go looking for your supposed savings six months after day one, they are no where to be found because everyone's job is now "essential" to making the new system run.

Now such a ruthless "make it work you lot!" approach is defendable when you are dealing with a system handling little pieces of paper, I would suggest that it is indefensible when you are dealing with people.

My guess is that BA and BAA have adopted the above approach on the advice of some very very expensive and beautifully spoken consultants. The fog around T5 is miraculously supposed to clear almost of it's own accord within the month as "teething problems" are dealt with, leaving BA with a pared down workforce happily producing happy travellers in a spotless 21st century environment.

The result? Bonuses all round, golf claps at Board meetings - that's the vision that's been sold, and that's why the silence from the Board and Management is so overwhelming. They haven't panicked yet. The serfs are supposed to "get it" within the week and make the system work the way the Consultants designed it.

As for the passengers involved in this little experiment? What of them? From the top down your management would appear to be composed of Industrial psychopaths or narcissists. They hire each other. Who else do you think would have previously worked as Chairman of a tobacco company? They care nothing for the staff or customers because they don't do empathy.

I don't know which boutique consulting firm is advising them now, but if the fog around T5 doesn't clear within the month, then another boutique consulting firm will be called in to review what's been done, and in true consulting style, they will tell BA to start again from a bottom - up complete system redesign. It's at that time that the punishment of the innocent will begin and some lowly managers will be "let go".

Mind you I'm only guessing from my system integration management days.

[mildredlucozade]

I cannot believe the BA Press Office are getting away with this? Along with WW Julia Simpson (ex Tony Blair Comms advisor!!!) and her door slamming media sullen faced oppo's should be shown the door. Surely Virgin, Bmi can show BA how to do PR....even the BAA are doing a better job!!!

Today, I hear BA's Director of Customer Service David Noyes (who was head of Heathrow for the last 3 years and should take responsibility) showed up at work................nice!

[FAStoat]

Of course if you were really cynical!!!!!!Is this just a ruse to force through a third runway at LHR?Think about it?BA vacates Terminal 1 and its main establishment Terminal 4.Other Airlines snap up the spaces and the all important slots.Terminal 5 departures then are totally blocked on taxiways to the northern runways.When flying the Shuttle, Lon-Edi-Gla-Lon,albeit several years ago,it was our Airline SOP to ask for pushback as soon as the Pax had boarded,so we could jump the queue.We automatically then also jumped the queue for the tug.By the time our tug arrived we were hopefully all shut up and the Cabin briefings underway.This was deliberately done by other Airlines as well,to block BA,especially out of GLA,when you had to give an estimate to Deans Cross.As for Terminal 5 departures,it will be all too easy to do exactly the same,but worse.On European routes,Lufthansa used to do this regularly,even with other crews complaining they were still boarding when they called for push and start!!!All in a days work-you might think childish-but when competing for Pax,my Pax would be out and racing for Hatton Cross tube,before the BA 757 was on stand.BA asks for all it gets in my humble opinion.

[JW411]

overstress:

"FAStoat is the same person as BAengineering"

I think you are getting just a little paranoid dear boy. Unless BAengineering flew Sea Furies in the Navy, they are most definitely not the same person!

[beamender99]

Sorry if this has been posted earlier - can't keep up with the thread.


You item is the start of the report in The Independant on Sunday.

[mickjoebill]

Still in a fix - need Terminal SIX

T1 tis 'ardly heaven lets go for seven :8


Mickjoebill

[rondun]

T1 tis 'ardly heaven lets go for seven:8 Bags piling up at the gate....better build number 8.:oh:

[wallie wilsh]

T5? Everythings fine! ..........Erm... hold on lets go for 9.

[beamender99]

BAA's new chief executive, Colin Matthews, flew into a storm at Heathrow Terminal 5.

Colin Matthews, 51, is the technocrats’ troubleshooter. Toronto-born, the former chief executive of Hays and Severn Trent has a reputation for being a technician and a safe pair of hands, ideal for BAA where regulatory complexity goes hand in hand with an almost daily need for damage limitation.
Sir Nigel Rudd, the chairman who was responsible for his appointment after a very discreet recruitment exercise, has not worked directly with him before. However, Mr Matthews is understood to have been recommended to Sir Nigel by Sir John Parker, the chairman of National Grid.
Educated at Cambridge and Paris business school, Mr Matthews first came to Sir John’s attention when National Grid was buying Lattice, the owner of gas networks group Transco. He was a director of both Transco and Lattice.
In the last 11 years, Mr Matthews, an engineer by training, has spent no more than two years in any one job.
Following a three-year stint at Bain, the management consultancy in the mid-80s, he has worked at General Electric, British Airways, Transco, Lattice, Hays and latterly water company Severn Trent.
At Hays and Severn Trent, where he held chief executive roles he garnered a reputation for successfully breaking up companies. He demerged Hays’s mail business DX and at Severn Trent, demerged Biffa, its waste business.
If BAA’s owner Ferrovial is forced by the regulator to sell off any of its airports or takes that route because of difficulties refinancing its huge debts, Mr Matthews is adept at profitably spinning off businesses.
His deep knowledge of the aviation sector will also please BAA’s biggest customers - the airlines. His knowledge of aviation goes back to his time at British Airways, where he was first director of engineering then director of technical operations, responsible for all aircraft maintenance, IT and procurement.
Mr Matthews’s time at Severn Trent, in which he had to oversee the fallout from a whistleblower which led to Serious Fraud Office charges being laid against the company, will also have equipped him with the crisis management and public relations skills to deal with the constant criticism levelled at the airports group.


So one less excuse then?
Been there, got the teeshirt ?

[chksix]

Looks like they finally managed to silence BAengineering. First ban the media from the terminal then silence the voices of dissent :=

Who's next?

Mugabe you have friends here.... :D

[seekayess]

A separate one for PPRuNers, then?

Ah well, let's go for TEN!!

[mickjoebill]

T10 Arrivals and Departures are on time,
But the shops aren't packed.. I've got the sack!



Mickjoebill

[exeng]

BA768 yesterday LHR - OSL from famed terminal, club class for a change. No bag at OSL and had to wait 30 mins in a queue to be told (by Menzies handlers) to phone a number immediately I arrived at my hotel.

Phoned number to be told it is 9 till 5 only. Flying all day today in my smelly civies and back too late to phone so tried on line to see that no update on bag was available.

Unable to buy anything around here so about to wash grunts out etc ready for another days flying tomorrow.

Would have been a nice touch if somebody from BA had made just the slightest effort to keep me updated on the bag disappearance, especially as Menzies were so insistant that I gave them all my phone and hotel details.

Sorry, a bit tongue in cheek the above paragraph - I knew that BA would not make the slightest extra effort.

I'll keep you all posted on the subject of compensation. WW's head on a stick would do for a start!


Regards
Exeng

[FAStoat]

This is getting highly entertaining,BUT!!!You have to laugh,otherwise you would cry.For Terminal 5 will surely die.Terminal 6 will be too much for chicks,and so Terminal 7 will be seventh heaven.Please come back into play BA Engineering.I am out of it.Going back to the Ouija Board to talk to those ghosts ruined by BA-Laker,British Caledonian,Dan Air,Air Europe,etc.Hope Freddy is laughing in his grave:sad:

[cheechm]

Only problem I found with it (when arriving from Lyon) was the slowness of the Home Office Border Control Staff. At least an hour long queue.

[the heavy heavy]

went thru it yesterday, everything worked very well apart from security.

guess that's what happens when you put a ex red-cap (the daily mail reports) who sleeps with the boss in charge! the modern uk, just pc/nepitistic-tastic!:mad:

[BAengineering]

Overstress, I am deeply flattered and honoured that you would suggest I am FaStoat. The reason being that his posts are very articulate and precise with respect to operating the control side of flying. This alas is an area of which I can provide little comment.

I would also like to say the earlier poster who stated BAEngineering must sleep was generally correct. At my age though not too much! It is nice to know that some of you have missed the postings, I will not be going away, I cannot be silenced.:oh:

I am concerned about the attempts of BA managers posting on this site to find out my identity, it demonstrates the kind of 'secret police' mentality they have. Or to attempt to discredit the postings I make, I can assure PPRUNE members I can backup all the facts I post to this site should that be necessary. Clearly the BA secret police are worried about these postings and need to shut it down. I'll have to be more careful at work when I'm posting. ;)

I would like to say I have a very special post which i will make at the right time, I promise it will be worth waiting for......

THe heavy heavy - Finally, what on earth is this ex-red cap having sex with the boss (i take it you mean Willie Walsh?) Sex and scandal, come on we love that stuff on here, give us names and dates!!

[BAengineering]

Yes it is still April the 1st, but this is no joke. BA is sending bags to the Italians for sorting! Immediate thoughts what about the carbon footprint, bet Greenpeace have something to say about that.

[BAengineering]

Now that has to be an April fools, BA shares jump 6.4% following the T5 chaos and the charge of competitors into LHR...

Anyone out there who can explain?

Maybe WW's family have been buying them up...

[BAengineering]

You'll not be surprised to hear that much of the trouble is IT-related (http://www.informationweek.com/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=XTLOU5EYJFSNMQSNDLRSKHSCJUNN2JV N?articleID=207000362):

Quote from Channelweb (http://www.crn.com/blog/hottopics/archives/2008/04/it_nightmares_b.html)

Just to quash the comment from a BA IT expert, boasting earlier in an posting that all his bits were ok. Well apparently they were not as the article states.

Typical of BA to shout triumphantly that all is well as the sh1t rains all around.

[ex-EGLL]

Absolute shambles with over eight BA personnel moseying round with hands in pockets and arms crossed; any idiot could have told them to use the steps from the aircraft next door, which eventually they did.

Just to do a "Bernard" of PM/YPM fame, can one mosey around with hands in pockets and arms crossed:confused:

ex-egll

[BAengineering]

THat flash game is just stunning, thats a proper PR stunt by the IT company in Scotland. Taking advantage of the publicity over T5.

The picture of Willy on the front is just a picture, love the boggly eyes. I've had ago and to be truthful I messed up, looks like I should be more respectful about the difficulty of boarding a passenger with luggage through a terminal.

Hope Willy has a sense of humour and doesn't barr it from access from within BA. Spoil sport if he does, as I can imagine alot of people at BA would love to play it at work.

[heidelberg]

Send for MOL - he is the person who sorted out baggage problems at Dublin a few years ago by arriving with sleeves rolled up and wearing Levis (at a discount!) and could do the same at T5. Bi bi WW and 50% of BA management.

[jet_noseover]

THat flash game is just stunning, thats a proper PR stunt by the IT company in Scotland. Taking advantage of the publicity over T5.

Of course it is. :)

from my earlier (#878) link:
"The BA game is more challenging than it sounds - we managed to deliver only one bag onto the belt in three minutes - so perhaps rather than mock BA, it's aim is to engender sympathy for the carrier. Sadia Chishti, managing director of T-Enterprise said: “We’re big fans of Willie Walsh. He inherited a lot of problems with British Airways and is doing a good job of fixing them."

:ugh:

How PC is that?!

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

I don't think there's anything surprising about a rise in the share price, to be honest. First, the market as a whole had a good day, and, second, the market may think the shares are oversold. Basically, the market looks ahead and is looking past the T5 problems. As a few others on this thread have said, BA is still a good brand name with a reasonably solid future, despite all the pollyannas.

[Tigs2]

I would buy today!!!

Think of Northern Rock??

Will BA be allowed to go down??

Go invest tomorrow!

[BAengineering]

Looks like the crows are comming home to roost, Jeff Randall Sky presenter and esteemed business journalist for the Telegraph has just penned this scathing column for tomorrows paper, check it out;

Telegraph - Jeff Randall - BA's Walsh has only weeks to get it right (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/04/02/ccjeff102.xml)

Indeed he states,

When I interviewed him for Sky News on Monday, he admitted that T5's first day was "a disaster" and "the buck rests with me". Yes Willie, it does, and powerful voices are already demanding that you are sacked

Powerful voices are demanding Wee Willie is sacked, would that be the chorus of voices from PPRUNE by perchance?

Oh the full length Jeff Randall SKY interview is here LINK it includes WW arrogant comments on the High court hearing with BALPA. He states he is confident he will win. His confidence has been shown, in recent times, to be severely misplaced.

I hope our pilots kick his little arse up and down High Holborn when they've finished wiping his piggy little smirk from his chipmunk chops!

Got to say I love that game WeeWillie in Terminal disaster (http://www.weewilliewalsh.co.uk/), its got me hooked. I say you may well see BAengineering up on the leader board before long!!!

[southern duel]

slight change of subject but still affecting T5.

what are the odds on switch 2 taking place on the planned 26th April ???

Switch 2 being the rest of BA's long haul moving from T4 to T5.

bets gratefully accepted :ok:

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Which company are moving the bags to Milan ??

Is it a company Burkwood has an interest in ???

Or maybe Hatton, both of them have their fingers in a few pies in the logistics business......

[etrang]

what are the odds on switch 2 taking place on the planned 26th April ???

Switch 2 being the rest of BA's long haul moving from T4 to T5.


Have BA slots at T4 already been allocated to other airlines after the planned move date? If so it will get very messy if BA try and delay their move.

[luoto]

Concerning the bags, AFP news agency reported BA saying: ""It is quicker for bags with European mainland addresses to go to Milan for sorting and onward transport than waiting for space to appear on flights leaving Heathrow" and BA noted that it sent bags to Milan last year when there was baggage problems.

[ElectroVlasic]

It's only aviation geeks that know what the difference between BA, BAA and HAL is. All the average Joe knows is they booked a flight with BA, and BA is telling them that they can get on the plane, but their bags can't!

BAA is BA's landlord. If I moved into an apartment without making sure the loos flushed, then I really only have myself to blame, no?

I get so many different vibes about the baggage handlers. On one hand we read here that they were only given brief training quite a while ago. On the other hand, we read here that they couldn't resist the urge to take a few swings at each other, and we read that perhaps a few dropped a few spanners into the works. What is one to make of all of this?

I don't know what to make of the baggage handling system. It seems that it's a design imperative for the system that planes depart even when the bags aren't available, so it seems the mountains of bags are deemed acceptable. It seems to me that this epic mountain of 28,000 bags might be the exception rather than the rule, but it also seems that any hiccup at all will result in a few thousand bag hillocks.

Wasn't it a few months ago where we were reading about what a disgrace T4's baggage handling was, and that all would be set right in T5?

The general slagging off of MBAs is great sport, but wasn't it every parent's dream 40-50 years ago that their kids would go to university and NOT get their hands dirty like they did?

And from what I can see in the current era is all the quaint paths from worker bee to inspirational manager just do not exist any more. If one does not get higher education, one is destined for menial labor, such as running a cash register in a mall er airport, or lifting bags off a belt and throwing them into the container that the ever so bright computer tells you to throw them into. Maybe you might get to supervise other bag throwers or register ringers, but I don't think you'll be following in Lord Marshall's footprints.

If one does decide to put away the ipod, video games and mobile phone, hit the books, and jump through all the hoops that is the higher education world these days, then what one has to look forward to is being slagged off by all those folks who think you should have taken the job tossing bags into the bin and pray that by some miracle that you'll be noticed for the true genius that you are and would be magically placed onto the first rung of the ladder that leads to the executive suite.

As much bitching/whining/wingeing as I'm reading here, I still wonder what advice you'd be giving the average 14-18 year old who wants to figure out what path to follow in life.

I wonder if some of the correspondents here really are suggesting to their younger kinfolk that they not take that university appointment and instead take a job on a cruise ship so they could work their way up in life.

[Fliegenmong]

WTF? :confused:

[Cyberfriend]

Anybody heard any problems coming out of their new Terminal 3 which started in Jan 2008?

[Joetom]

Switch 2 to T5. Think (most long hall to T5)

I have read dates of the 26th/27th and 30th of April, I would guess with the switch 1 saga, switch 2 is open to review, however switch 2 occours, the press and the new airlines at Heathrow (open skys) will make the most of it.

They have got Baggs of time to decide when switch 2 starts ???

[green granite]

ElectroVlasic, It's not the MBA it's self the people are slagging off, it's the fact that, in most cases, they are given management positions immediately after they get it and have no experience of how that industry functions.
In the old gays even the bosses son started as "tea boy" and worked his way up through all the departments so that he knew exactly who did what, how and why.

[Joetom]

At least the webb site is up to speed......Just checked it....

Flights at T1 and T4 are operating as normal....

But, webb site shows todays PHL,SEA and ORD are CANX, maybe this is normal ???

[stickyb]

We are operating the vast majority of flights to and from Heathrow Terminal 5. We continue to work towards increasing the number of flights we operate in the days ahead and plan to fly 92 per cent of our flying programme to and from Terminal 5 by Thursday April 3.


That is from the BA website. Sounds rather good, but then they give the actual figures


Wednesday 2 April, 342 flights out of 392 will operate to and from Terminal 5.
Thursday 3 April, 364 flights out of 396 will operate to and from Terminal 5.
Friday 4 April, 360 flights out of 394 will operate to and from Terminal 5.


My maths makes the % 87.2 for Wednesday, 91.9 for Thursday, and then it gets worse again on Friday to 91.3

Looking for a definition of "vast majority" i came across this:

While a simple1 "majority (http://everything2.com/title/majority)" is more than 50% of any total, a "vast majority" is harder to define. The phrase "vast majority" is most often used to exaggerate the size (http://everything2.com/title/Sorry%2520about%2520the%2520small%2520penis), relevance (http://everything2.com/title/irrelevant%2520conclusion), or importance (http://everything2.com/title/you%2520are%2520an%2520important%2520part%2520of%2520the%252 0computer) of some statistic (http://everything2.com/title/Lies%252C%2520damn%2520lies%252C%2520and%2520statistics).
To avoid ambiguity and the appearance of exaggeration or stupidity, the phrase "vast majority" should be altogether avoided, and instead, say simply, "majority (http://everything2.com/title/majority)" (which does have a clear meaning), or "X % majority", identifying the exact percent-majority that you consider to be "vast".

[BAengineering]

In the old gays even the bosses son started as "tea boy"


Green granite - not a freudian slip?

[BAengineering]

Little side theme, anagrams of the two main 'players' Wee willie and Deadwood; Here is some i made up;

Willie Walsh

Wails He Will (damn right he must be wailing)


Gareth Kirkwood


Who Garoted Kirk
Right Dork Awoke
How To Grade Kirk?
I Threw Grad Kook (kook meaning non-american)
Hard Ego Work Kit
Dark Ego Hit Work
God Heat Row Kirk


(See what you can do)

[rondun]

My maths makes the % 87.2 for Wednesday, 91.9 for Thursday, and then it gets worse again on Friday to 91.3

Looking for a definition of "vast majority" i came across this:

While a simple1 "majority (http://everything2.com/title/majority)" is more than 50% of any total, a "vast majority" is harder to define. The phrase "vast majority" is most often used to exaggerate the size (http://everything2.com/title/Sorry%2520about%2520the%2520small%2520penis), relevance (http://everything2.com/title/irrelevant%2520conclusion), or importance (http://everything2.com/title/you%2520are%2520an%2520important%2520part%2520of%2520the%252 0computer) of some statistic (http://everything2.com/title/Lies%252C%2520damn%2520lies%252C%2520and%2520statistics).
To avoid ambiguity and the appearance of exaggeration or stupidity, the phrase "vast majority" should be altogether avoided, and instead, say simply, "majority (http://everything2.com/title/majority)" (which does have a clear meaning), or "X % majority", identifying the exact percent-majority that you consider to be "vast".Maybe its the same language as "slightly more than 20000" = 28000 bags.

Anyway its good to know that the "vast majority" of the 200000 people through T5 have been reunited with their bags.

Looking on the BAA (http://www.heathrowairport.com/) website there are no cancellations showing either to or from T5 - do they too just delete them from the system?

[BAengineering]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44531000/jpg/_44531924_bags_226.jpg

Looks like BA are once again looking after our passengers luggage, uncontainerised and exposed to the elements, just like the lot last year which was left outside in Terminal 4 and gt soaked through and ruined. They just have no respect for customers, but then we know that. Also looks like the bags are being flown to Milan as they are being loaded onto the Alitalia aircraft in background of photo. Why do BA always give innacurrate press releases, like the bags are being sent by road when they are clearly not. :confused:

[BAengineering]

All this T5 chaos reminds me last time I checked in at Heathrow I had three cases and at the check in I asked the girl "Can you send one of my suitcases to Paris, one to Milan and one to Cairo please"
"I'm sorry sir, but i'm afraid we can't do that" she replied.
"Why not? you :mad: managed it last year":)

[theskyboy]

With regard to the above picture, I feel as someone who actually works on the ramp and in T5, I should explain that that is in fact how bags in are transported to bulk loaded aircraft. Bulk loaded being when bags are sent up a conveyor and loaded loose in to an aircraft, and not when bags are put in to ULD's in the baggage hall.

Incidentally the GG on the vehicle stands for Globe Ground a handling agent at LHR. So I doubt this picture has anything to do with transportation of BA luggage. There have been several Jan De Rijk articulated lorries around 551/561 stands. Loading up bags for processing.

I'd love to post more as perhaps a view from the ramp would give you all a less biased less anti-BA view of what's going on, and believe me I'm the first to admit it's been sh!t the last week, but it is getting better.

Sorry if some of this seems like I'm teaching you to suck eggs, but it's pretty clear that some posters on here don't really know what they're talking about.

But keep spinning if needs be, I've got to go to work.

tsb

[rondun]

All this T5 chaos reminds me last time I checked in at Heathrow I had three cases and at the check in I asked the girl "Can you send one of my suitcases to Paris, one to Milan and one to Cairo please"
"I'm sorry sir, but i'm afraid we can't do that" she replied.
"Why not? you :mad: managed it last year":)Classic!

As for anagrams, if you go with:

BA Chief Willie Walsh, I get:

Web fail while I clash.


Still on the lighter side (http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/228/87ehvow48kt6.jpg)

[BAengineering]

The only people spinning around this one is BA, like one of those kiddy toys.

Oh just thought I'd save the banner from the BA site which ran until yesterday, reference flying with no bags!!! Another amazing own goal. Posted below for all to see!

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4697/nobagsti9.jpg

Bloody marvelous!!! You just have to see the funny side of it all....of course most passengers do the latter, but not through choice!

[green granite]

In the old gays even the bosses son started as "tea boy"Green granite - not a freudian slip?

Nice to see someone reads my posts. :D

[BAengineering]

Green Granite, nobody escapes my gaze :ok:

Funny slip up for sure.

[egbt]

Well, not a good start to my trip trough T5. Arrived nice and early and found the business car park full!

Got though security OK, walked to the South lounge to find it closed for health and safety reasons, I think a (water?) leak. No notices, no one at security telling people - just left to find out for yourself.

So walked to the other end of the terminal to the North lounge (centre of the terminal presumably reserved for lucrative trading pitches) which is of course heaving. If the South lounge is not much bigger than the North then there will be chaos when the rest of the flights move.

Not particularly impressed with the lounge area either, very small dedicated working area, additional tables scattered around but no power. Don’t designers and decision makers every fly on business?

[BAengineering]

don't worry about the business car park being full. Thats only because the 400 volunteers who are on double time overtime, needed somewhere to park. This was the best they could come up with at short notice. For a minute you probably thought there were a lot of business flyers. Well heard a little birdy who said already indications that forward business bookings have dropped vastly since this debacle. Very sad, very bad.

[Rockhound]

Cyberfriend,
In answer to your query regarding Singapore's new Terminal 3, my sources tell me its opening in January went pretty smoothly but then you'd expect little less. After all, it was an addition to a facility that has few equals among the world's airports. Then there's the tight ship under the helm of the Lee family - how could you miss?
Rockhound:E:ok:

[Petley]

There is a picture of Gareth Kirkwood in today's Daily Mail with the caption underneath "British Airways operations director Gareth Kirkwood is public enemy number one as the Terminal 5 chaos enters its sixth day".

[yakker]

Is BA now loading bags onto a few trucks to transport them by road to Italy?
Will they then be sorted and redistributed to the correct place, sent by road again or by air?
Are the bags going to the original destination or to the home address of the poor traveller?
If your bag was left at T5 last week and gets shipped to your the original flight destination, chances are that you are now home again, so the bag will need to be sent back to Heathrow, and then back to you, is this correct?

[Basil]

Wife of a colleague travelled out of T5 on Monday and all went well.

[BAengineering]

Is the BA PR dept stuck for suitable vocabulary? With the vast majority of flights going (when we know thats not the case) and now in a press association release, BA spokesperson stating;


'But a BA spokeswoman said it "can't say 100%" all the bags will be sorted in a week, but "the vast majority" would be.'


Clearly this has not been lost on the hacks at the press association who have emphasised the repetative use of VAST. Stickyb I agree with you that this is intended to be misleading for the consumer and commend your dedicate and detailed research into the matter. :D

As for VanHorck, what are you going on about? Whilst I am nearly in the ready to retire region, I am far from retired. And when have you ever heard of an aircraft engineer with their own office??? Dingy crewroom yes, plush office no.:{

[Two-Tone-Blue]

#952 ... Wife of a colleague travelled out of T5 on Monday and all went well.With hold baggage?

And, BTW ...
How are the lifts and escalators doing now? Any substantive updates?
What's the story on the South Lounge? [post #942] Any further info?

[DILLIGAFF]

Basil, your colleagues wife was indeed lucky I was due to fly to Frankfurt on Monday. Was sent a text at 2045 Saturday night telling me my flight was canx.
D

[Basil]

With hold baggage?

Yes - and it even arrived.

How are the lifts and escalators doing now? Any substantive updates?
What's the story on the South Lounge? [post #942] Any further info?

Regret don't know.


Re allocation of blame which features large in this thread. Since we mention lifts and escalators and lounges; who would be responsible for delivering those in working order :hmm:

[beamender99]

There is a picture of Gareth Kirkwood in today's Daily Mail with the caption underneath "British Airways operations director Gareth Kirkwood is public enemy number one as the Terminal 5 chaos enters its sixth day".


A reminder
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/03_04/BA2803_228x349.jpg

Willie Walsh: 'The buck stops with me'

( from This is London)


http://www.aircargonews.net/images/news/BAWCGarethKirkwood.jpg


But who is this sitting it out?

Tis our Gareth ( remember that face?)

www.aircargonews.net/article.asp?art_id=1147 (http://www.aircargonews.net/article.asp?art_id=1147)

[No longer ATC]

The parking/dumping of vehicles behind soon to depart aircraft IS happening....it's a FACT not a rumour....my better half, along with many of our mates are BA flt deck crew and I have heard of at least 4 instances over the last few days...

[Atlantean1963]

Just to say I flew BA to Munich (BA0952) out of T5 today with baggage...

T5 business parking almost full - I can see that being a problem later on. But bus transfer quick, and traffice much better!

No problems at check in (I see they are calling them "fast bag drops" - as opposed to the old "bag drops" in T1).

Ten minutes through security (only 3 of 14 machines open) - although they opened one more just as I cleared security, meaning no queue for people just coming through (bit unfair).

If you ignore the shops, it's not a bad place to be, very quiet (in the sense of low noise levels)

Out to the B gates for the flight - even quieter, and not too hot. It's a pity you can't walk out to B and C, and you have to get the shuttle thing. But that's just me - I like to walk as much as I can on the basis I'm about to sit down for a couple of hours...

Left 30 mins late (incoming ATC cited as reason), landed 15 minutes late. Very good crew - thanks if you're reading.

Bags returned in ten minutes at MUC.

So far so good - it'll be interesting to see how things go on the return journey on Friday...

Best Regards,

Atlantean.

[L9172]

Perhaps some of the many people who have commented in this thread about the Terminal 5 problems, most of which I do not understand, might offer me some genuine reassurance. I am a member of the SLF who wishes simply to go from point A to point B with the minimum of fuss, in reasonable comfort and adequate safety. My knowledge of the air transport industry is little more than my knowledge of the care and feeding of dinosaurs, so it is to the members of this forum that I turn when I have a question about it.

Buying my ticket just a few days before T5 was opened for business, I find that I am due to fly on BA0269 from T5 to Los Angeles on 14th May and back again on 4th June on BA0278 into T5, arriving on 5th June. The reassurance I seek is simply this - is there is a realistic chance that my suitcase and I might complete both journeys together and more or less on time?

My thanks in advance to anybody who can help with this enquiry.

L9172

[schoolkid]

Atlantean 63,
Great to hear of a positive flight expierience from T5. When everything does eventually get bedded in, accompanied with dependable queueing times for check-in and security, I can see the Terminal gaining some very positive feedback from pax.

It will make such a pleasent change from the poor and delapadated facilities elsewhere in LHR and at some of it's London neighbours..T1 domestic comes to mind!

[BAengineering]

Business week;


BA's reputation is more tarnished from this problem than from any other in the last three years


and boy it's been a rough 3 years.


It has caused "collateral damage to customer confidence.

[pasoundman]

So, are the lifts, escalators and toilets all now working ?

[luoto]

British Airways pulped thousands of copies of a commemorative edition of its internal newsletter to celebrate the launch of Heathrow Airport's Terminal 5, after it was deemed inappropriate amid the chaos of the launch.

BA News is an internal weekly publication for BA staff, out every Thursday and run by managing editor Ian Lynch. An extra edition was due out last Friday to coincide with the launch of the much-hyped new terminal, but production was dramatically halted half-way through printing.

...

A spokesperson for BA told Press Gazette: “It hadn’t actually finished its print run when the decision was made not to actually produce it. Given the problems for our customers it didn’t seem appropriate at the time.”

...

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=40748&c=1

[Sunfish]

L337:

Indeed, but the vast majority of BA staff are trying to put it right, not bitching and moaning on PPruNe.

This is a standard way of deflecting criticism - telling people to put their shoulder to the wheel and shut up. It does however beg the question of how you got yourself into this mess in the first place, which is a legitimate subject of discussion.

And it appears that this mess has been caused by a first class management ****up - even if it's all ironed out in the first week.

[L337]

This is a standard way of deflecting criticism - telling people to put their shoulder to the wheel and shut up

I am not telling people to put their shoulder to the wheel, nor am I trying to deflect criticism. I am stating a fact, and that is... "The vast majority of BA staff are trying to put it right, not bitching and moaning on PPruNe". And that comment was aimed directly at BAengineering.

It does however beg the question of how you got yourself into this mess in the first place, which is a legitimate subject of discussion.

Absolutely correct. I cannot agree more. More than that I want the people who caused the "first class management ****up" to be held responsible.

[FlyingTom]

they have still only reduced the 'baggage mountain' (sounds distinctly EU) by just 2000 bags.

And I think those 2000 bags have just been moved to a shed at Gatwick from talking to some ground staff there!

[Ancient Mariner]

Flying TRF, PER, SIN, TRF April 13 to 24. Travel agent came up with SK via BKK and one night there going down under or BA via LHR T5&T4 up and down.
And my decision was? :E
Per

[Llademos]

BA is planning a full schedule from Saturday ... good luck to those in the terminal (staff and pax)

[BAengineering]

Now, Groundhand, I am very suspicious of your credentials. Are you the forebearer of what the future holds? The stripping of cost from BA by removing all staff completely from the operation?

Just saw this on the ITV news; LINK (http://itn.co.uk/news/b04df3d0eb9a177f9d2a2749f670f4c2.html)


Chicago-bound flight left Terminal 4 yesterday empty of both passengers and crew as a result of staff shortages


Well stone the crows, Willies secret weapon, an aircraft that flies itself without any crew. Now that is just genius, Willie I take it all back you can keep the job.........

BALPA be aware, he has a secret weapon, autopilot planes, don't go on strike or he'll get more of the new series wonderbuses:E

[PPRuNe Pop]

I was thinking that!

BA have announced that they will operate a full service on Saturday - didn't mention the other days though! :rolleyes:

[Two-Tone-Blue]

My goodness, "Chaos at T5" has really shifted direction to "Kill Will".

I'd stayed clear of PPRuNe for years, because I thought it would be far too "Captain Speaking" for we common mortals. How wrong I was ... it's Facebook/Bebo in suits. :rolleyes:

Relevant and useful inputs at ...
#1010 from L9172
#1026 from al446
#1077 from tagron

For the benefit of the rest of "Planet Earth" ... i.e. the bludgy inconvenient proles that pay their own money to travel through sh1t airports on sh1t airlines and thus pay the wages of those who work in them, is there any chance that some of the enthusiasts here would consider returning the thread to a meaningful discussion on T5?

Or am I being a boring old faaart, who would just like to know WTF is happening?

[Capvermell]

As one who has previously fallen foul of the hidden rule on this forum that "only very experienced knowledgeable engineers and flight crew may make any valid comments about air crashes" I must say that this thread has been a like breath of fresh air largely free of the normal management strictures in the forum on what may or may not be deemed to be a valid contribution.

I still feel BAA is not carrying enough of the blame here since they built the terminal and the physical baggage machinery and ultimately if they as airport operator believed that moving most BA T1 flights to the terminal all in one day was too risky a strategy they should have insisted on other more measured solutions. Also as the Queen opened the damned terminal 2 weeks before disaster day surely a far more logical approach would have been to have had at least a single flight leave on the day the Queen opened T5 (making her opening of the building a real rather than only a ceremonial exercise) and then to have built up slowly adding say 3 routes a day to T5 for the next 70 days or whatever (no idea offhand how many routes BA has in total). Then if there had been issues there would have been some choppyness and may be the odd cancelled flight here and there but it could have been worked on in a manageable kind of way.

Also why on earth when disaster ensued on March 27th did no one have the good sense to totally revert all flights back to T1-4 for the next 14 or 28 days or whatever whilst a post mortem was done so a repeat could be avoided. The answer seems to be that because modern brash corporate egos cannot admit to their mistakes and cannot bring themselve to accept an orderly retreat rather than the modern equivalent of Custer's Last Stand). OK so some passengers would have still have shown up at T5 (despite text messages etc now being possible) but most of them would still have got to T1 by bus or underground or whatever in time for their flight and would have had a reasonable holiday or trip with their luggage!

I visited T5 to collect a passenger on the first day and after initially being amazed that the grasping and avaricious BAA could possibly have seen their way to offering free parking in the Short Term car park the reasons for this soon became apparent. No lifts worked in the car park, no lifts worked inside the terminal building and signage to find your way back to the car park within the terminal building was almost totally absent. Then the cafes had run out of tea while I had to wait 2 hours for the person I was meeting to appear (fortunately they had only made their journey with hand luggage).

The biggest problems that no one seems to have been willing to discuss is that T5 is simply too big so that any disaster that does strike is then of monumental proportions. If Heathrow Airport in the end becomes largely massive Heathrow West (neeT5) and Heathrow East (nee T1&T2) buildings plus minnow like T3 and T4 then surely it is much more vulnerable to the unthinkable happening with a terrorist dirty bomb or even an aircraft crashing in to T5 (conceivable given its location and the building's height). Then what happens - London loses 30 million passengers a year capacity and all inter lining non UK bound international passengers divert to Europe while UK bound passengers find themselves landing at Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol or wherever else they didn't want to go.

To my mind aside from out of touch press on regardless management not constrained by reality at BA and BAA the biggest sin of all here has been pure and utter greed by simply building a terminal that is too big. With a terminal of this size whenever a major problem develops then the consequences are always going to be a meltdown of unimagineable proportions.

[Capvermell]

The WeeWillie game link only seems to lead to a hosting page for the web company. Has Wee Willie had an injunction for defamation of character slapped on the site?

Perhaps he has been taking advice from Max Moseley's lawyers.:E

[BAengineering]

Capvermell, no just tried it, works fine. You have to click on the screen to activate the FLASH game. Of course you need the flash player loaded on your PC. So generally BA pc's would be out of the question, I say generally. I have heard a wee birdie that tells me they've been playing it in Waterworld. Imagine playing such a disrespectful game with the man it ridicules working away in the next office. Disgraceful, what's this country come to? is there no manners or decency left?

Oh another thing, suprisingly nobody has mentioned the BA MANTRA, well other than the reall catchy 'BA WAY' as stated in the corporate responsability report (http://www.britishairways.com/cms/global/pdfs/corporate_responsibility_report_2006/the_BA_way_in_the_workplace.pdf) - T5 is bringing "the BA Way" to life.

Wanna know what happens to your bags being loaded to BA PLANES? Checkout the videos below'

1. BA BAG BOYS 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oebxen6lZWk&NR=1)
2. BA BAG BOYS 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLTuH3GKypw&NR=1)
3. BA BAG BOYS 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR31illpgNY&feature=related)
4. BA BAG BOYS 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ9E6AB3GsY)
5. BA BAG BOYS 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx-P1GTsGgM)

Oh if anyone can remember that speal about the BA WAY,please put it on her for a laugh. Extra points if you can identify the individual, committee or agency that invented the drivel. It was wierd......

[zed3]

One thing springs to mind here - apart from the proven inept BA management - the baggage handling system is Dutch and is the same as in Schiphol . I seem to remember now why I don't fly KLM anymore ... uuurm lost bags from Schiphol ... and lies .

[Capvermell]

BAengineering Capvermell, no just tried it, works fine. You have to click on the screen to activate the FLASH game It ran ok in Firefox 2. IE7 didn't seem to want to know. It seemed too hard to jump over those trolleys for my liking, even if you jump they still seem to knock the bag out of Willy's hands. I only managed to get 2 in the hold before giving up. Still I suppose the idea is to be as difficult as the real T5 baggage system to use. Also I thought there could have been a better likeness for Willy with the player. As to BA's CEOs my only grudge against Skippy was being the man to take the axe to the world's finest ever passenger aircraft (which I had the pleasure of travelling on JFK to LHR only 8 days before the end in 2003) but Walsh I took an instant dislike to as the meanest kind of character lacking cost cutter with an obvious Napoleon complex. Has the man ever been known to smile or laugh about anything?

[Hydroman400]

It looks as if the chaos at T5 has been too much for some.....just heard Naomi Campbell got tossed off a flight due to "baggage" problems......would love to have seen that one....:}

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Oh, good, now the big issue is computer games. :(

It's good to know that subscribers to a thread about the T5 disaster have their priorities right.

I think I'll just sidle towards to door, and pretend PPrune never happened. :mad:

[Sunfish]

You will find an interesting article on complex systems here - and I would argue that T5 is a classic example of a complex system:

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19826501.400-could-a-pandemic-bring-down-civilisation.html

The key conclusion is here:

Bar-Yam thinks the loss of key people would be crucial. "Losing pieces indiscriminately from a highly complex system is very dangerous," he says. "One of the most profound results of complex systems research is that when systems are highly complex, individuals matter."


So build a highly complex operation like T5 with minimal staff relying on automation and individuals start to matter.

Now try and reconcile this with what we are told is an abusive management culture that does their level best to dis-empower their own staff.

[jet_noseover]

Heathrow operator apologises for T5 chaos
By John Willman and Kevin Done

Published: April 3 2008 19:58 | Last updated: April 3 2008 19:58

Passengers using Heathrow’s Terminal 5 will soon experience “impeccable service”, the new chief executive of BAA, the airport’s operator, said on Thursday.

Colin Matthews, making his first public comments since taking up his post on Tuesday, apologised for the distress suffered by passengers but refused to blame any single factor for the chaos that at one stage left more than 20,000luggage bags misplaced.

He refused to allocate blame, saying that some of the problems were on BAA’s side, some on the airline’s and some at the interface between the two.

Mr Matthews said no fundamental weakness in the £4.3bn terminal’s state-of-the-art baggage system had emerged as BAA and British Airways worked together to deal with the backlog.

“I’m very confident that the baggage system is robust and will provide a great service, as will T5 as a whole,” he said.

BA said it would be forced to cancel 34 domestic and short-haul European flights on Friday but was planning to operate a full schedule for the first time from the new terminal on Saturday.

It said it could not rule out cancellations next week.

Including the latest cancellations, BA has stopped 465 flights since the opening of the showpiece terminal last week, when mounting problems halted all baggage check-in. The airline estimated the financial impact of the chaos at about £16m, including the costs of the disruption and lost revenues.

But BA said that the performance of T5 was “steadily improving”.

The airline is due to move a further 20 per cent of its total Heathrow operations, or about 120 flights a day, from T4 to T5 on April 30. Any delay will have an impact on other carriers, which are also due to be relocated between terminals.

Mr Matthews said: “At the right time, we should sit down with BA and understand every single lesson there is to be learnt.

“I don’t want to do that too soon because we need to have clear sight of all the issues and make sure we are not tempting people to withdraw from joint working into a defensive position.”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b3b5c5a6-01ae-11dd-a323-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1

[green granite]

Mr Matthews said: “At the right time, we should sit down with BA and understand every single lesson there is to be learnt.

“I don’t want to do that too soon because we need to have clear sight of all the issues and make sure we are not tempting people to withdraw from joint working into a defensive position.”Probably the most sensible thing I've heard regarding the situation yet.

[BAengineering]

Now this is a man that was loved or lothed at BA engineering, personally i thought he was a reasonable director. However, that latest posting, the first I have heard from BAA, is somewhat respectable. Well done Mr Matthews, that's how good PR works. BA you could learn a trick or two.

Nothing grovelling, just matter of fact and business like. Proactive and straight to the point. Even a small concession to BA, shouldering a little blame for BAA's part. I mean he couldn't get away from the lift issue with an ITN reporter stuck in one. So there were infrastructure snaggs, so what, that didn't stop us getting the passengers, with luggage ready to go.

I think this is because Mr Matthews has prior experience of BA, he knows the individuals, he knows that when the 'sit down with BA' happens it will all end up being down to BA's PPP (BA's piss poor planning) and staffing issues.

[512]

As an interested outsider and user (SLF), I have followed this thread with interest. I am employed in aviation, but not in the airline industry.

I have used LHR and BA (nee BOAC) from the late fifties up to 2005 and LGW from 1990 until the same time. Generally, the experience was a positive one and frequently came across front line staff that were professional and courteous. At the end, especially at LGW, luggage was slow to arrive at the baggage hall.

Lately, I have avoided LHR and LGW, only using regional airports and debacles like this only reinforce my reasons for doing so.

As a customer, an airline HAS to achieve two things before I will consider using it, firstly, safety (obviously) and secondly, a demonstrated ability to get myself and luggage to my destination together. Price, timings, comfort, service etc are considerations which come later.

Whilst I have on occasions travelled with only hand luggage, this has been my choice and not the airlines. When taking luggage to check in, it is completely unacceptable to arrive at the airport and find that the airline will not accept checked in luggage and expect me to travel without it.

An airline that expects me to check in and travel without my luggage will NEVER get my business again. BA appears to think that it is acceptable for an airline to offer travel on this basis.

It remains to be seen whether my view is in the majority, but I think that BA has crossed the line and is now in terminal decline, unfortunately for the majority of its workforce.

[llondel]

I think that fairly amplifies the importance of the items in passengers luggage.

Given that there are now some items I can't take in carry-on even if I'd prefer to because I value them, it is even more important for airlines to take good care of the baggage.

[chrisbl]

On Friday I had the bizarre experience of a BA captain standing at the front addressing the passengers over the PA system and said,

"I have been told we have four containers of luggage loaded but I cannot assure you that it is your luggage.

I saw the apology given by the director of operations on television and I thought it was both insincere and insubstantial."

At which point I thought what a pillock and who is he trying to impress. If that is typical of aircrew these days then I will not be travelling with BA again.

Personally the bloke should be sacked - it's the most unprofessional thing I think I have seen. He needs to stick to driving the bus, that's what he is paid to do. He may have an axe to grind with the company but it should not be done in front of the customers.

[moggiee]

On Friday I had the bizarre experience of a BA captain standing at the front addressing the passengers over the PA system and said,

"I have been told we have four containers of luggage loaded but I cannot assure you that it is your luggage.

I saw the apology given by the director of operations on television and I thought it was both insincere and insubstantial."

At which point I thought what a pillock and who is he trying to impress. If that is typical of aircrew these days then I will not be travelling with BA again.

Personally the bloke should be sacked - it's the most unprofessional thing I think I have seen. He needs to stick to driving the bus, that's what he is paid to do. He may have an axe to grind with the company but it should not be done in front of the customers.
That was my brother - I'll be sure to tell him that you did not appreciate his honesty!

If you'd rather he hadn't warned you that your bags might not make it then that's your choice - my understanding of the situation is that not only were only half the bags on board but no-one could tell them which half were missing. Far better to warn people in advance than have a nasty surprise waiting at (I believe) EDI - a fact appreciated by the majority of the passengers. He may not have made any friends amongst the managers, but he tells me that a large number of the passengers thanked him for his honesty.

Would you'd rather he'd stood there and told you that everything was fine, only to find out 90 minutes later that it wasn't? Would you'd rather have had some "party-line" towing company gob****e giving you a load of bull? He could also have sat behind a locked flightdeck door to make the announcement but chose to come out front and face the fare-paying passengers when he broke the bad news. I suppose having the decency to look your customers in the eye is unprofessional, too?

In my career in aviation I have always believed that the only way to earn the respect of passengers and colleagues is honesty - and the "apology" by the company was indeed insincere and inadequate. BA screwed up by not having enough people on the ground on day one - a decision made at the highest level - yet it's the people on the shop floor taking the flak.

I can assure you that he has absolutely NO axe to grind with BA having been with then for a decade and a half - in fact he loves working there. A great deal of anger has been directed at BA personnel by passengers - see Naomi Campbell and Calvin Harris (and he should have been smart enough to make TWO copies of his album) - explaining the facts to his passengers was a way of protecting his crew. If you think that honesty and concern for colleagues/passengers are unprofessional traits, well, Ryanair have tickets available for you!

The bit that you've missed out from your quote was that he informed the passengers about the luggage problem so that they could make an informed choice as to whether or not to travel - although he did suggest that the best bet was probably to continue to destination as there was at least a 50% chance of the bags getting there.

[Hand Solo]

Skip back to post number 787 and see the large axe chrisbl has to grind.

[moggiee]

Skip back to post number 787 and see the large axe chrisbl has to grind.
I wonder, did the axe go in his hand luggage or is it in Milan?

ABBA - Anything But BA
If that's the case, why were you even on that aeroplane?

[Skipness One Echo]

Kudos to the Captain, the only thing holding the whole ship together is the Nigels on the front line and the cabin crew who support them. If I had been SLF on that flight I would have been mollified, as they were all in the mess together.

[Walnut]

Like the moderators I too felt the "T5 Chaos" thread was totally going off at a tangent.
Pprune exists to give rumours & news on aviation matters, not giving air time to peoples personel gripes and ego building.
So lets now have some sanity please.
Why did the T5 changeover fail so dismally.? The building is magnificant of that there is no doubt, but was it fully ready and fit for purpose, or was it let down by the people given the job of running it.?
Or were the people given the job of running it insufficiently trained,? lets face it most complex systems need some time to master. If the staff were just given a few short training periods at the new facility then what has happened in the last week was inevitable.
ie management failure.
As to the future, what will happen when BA moves all services from T4 at the end of this month, will the terminal again be found wanting.?
One problem I do foresee in the future, is either say a major power failure or bomb scare knocking out the whole terminal for a while, or much more likely a major traffic snarl up, accident etc, on the M25 close to the terminal. As this is the only significant road access into the facility, then having all your eggs in one basket could be a dangerous strategy for BA.

[Seat62K]

Magnificent building, perhaps, but I feel that it may be too small. Within a short time, if traffic figures increase, it might become full, even without the Australian and Spanish services which will migrate to T3.

[Sick Squid]

The T5 thread was hijacked by a single-issue poster, and then the bulk of the posts then became an ego-battle between that poster and others contributing. The thread was taken so far off topic by this battle that it was not worth continuing with, and needed serious editing to keep it on track.

The editing should take place earlier. The majority of posters do not realise this, and cry "Free Speech!" when that is most fundamentally NOT the imperative that should apply in here. That is why the site continually gets dragged off-topic, and dragged down.

You want "Free Speech?" Start your own site, and you've got it. Otherwise put up and shut up.

Sorry, but that is exactly how it should be. This site is too big to be left to the random element these days.

[raveng]

BAeng, You don't know some of our loaders well enough then. The majority of the guys work damn hard, but a small l minority group cause big big problems for the rest of us, you've only got to be around about 45 mins to an hour before shift change.

As for some of your earlier posts, yes BA management seriously screwed up, along with the usual helpful BAA, BUT are you seriously saying that groundstaff don't cause some of these problems?? I think not.

People who live in glasshouse....:oh:

[banana9999]

The T5 thread was hijacked by a single-issue poster, and then the bulk of the posts then became an ego-battle between that poster and others contributing.

Really I would never have guessed!


Total Posts: 974
User Name Posts
BAengineering 85
Hand Solo 34
pasoundman 31
Storminnorm 21
beamender99 20

[PThomas]

With the news this morning that BAA/BA hope to run their first 100% day in T5 I wish them all the best.. as a wannabe SFO and as your average piece of SLF, but yet proud to be British, i really hope things improve.... although I quite fancy a career with another "British" flagship.... surely, all UK reg. guys/gals don't really want to see T5 flop ?!

Chin up BA..

[Joetom]

Sorry for the drift, but.

Public interest can be very short lived.

This thread has more posts than the BA038 thread, and now at about 80% of views, would guess views will out do the 038 by next weekend.

Good luck to all the passengers and staff in T5 today !!!

[hetrotrolleydolly]

Travelled BA 2 days ago through T5 and the place is fantastic .Lets not forget the terrible inconvenience that people have experienced with cancelled flights ,baggage etc etc but honestly check in ,security all very very quick and hassle free .airside is awesome spacious and both Club lounges are superb .Had a glimpse at First Class lounges and the "Concorde Lounge " too both very very smart .Hope that BA staff get this all worked out and that T5 is recognised as a brilliant piece of design and something Britain can be proud of !

BTW I am not BA staff!!

[ZFT]

So what or who are you? Access to all BA lounges!!!!!

[hetrotrolleydolly]

Hi ZFT ,just had a club class ticket and went to north lounge . It was at the opposite end to the departure gate and en route to South lounge asked BA staff to have a peep they are justifiably proud of their new facilities and showed us around .It is really impressive

[derekvader]

Well there are about eight BA T5 departures showing as "Please contact your airline" on www.heathrowairport.com right now, which normally means they are cancelled, so does that mean the widely announced 100% attempt for today has failed?

[SLFJan]

The Beeb are reporting baggage problems

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7331954.stm

oh gawd!:{

[derekvader]

Yep just announced on the radio news, all baggage at T5 is now being sorted manually and some flights to be cancelled.

When will BA learn? It doesn't matter whether today's failure is down to BA or BAA. Achieve a full day's service, and THEN announce it to the press. This continual putting out of statements about what they're HOPING to achieve and then FAILING again is just adding to the farce.

[Rob Courtney]

I got back from T5 yesterday. Flew down from MAN on Wed afternoon with just a carry on (didnt want to risk it). The flight out was an hour and a qtr late because the inbound aircraft had been delayed due to loading baggage at Heathrow (the Captain said he thought they had brought most of the bags up). Going through T5 as an arriving pax was ok. I had no luggage but found my way out and got the hire car no problem.

Coming back we were badly late getting to the airport because of that large car park they call the M25. Checking in was a doddle and I must say the BA staff were superb with my friend who was flying to Edi and whose flight was due to go 30 mins after we arrived. They fast tracked him through and he made it. The statement about passing through the security in ten mins is an absolute joke. If all the arches and scanners were operating you might have had a chance but because BAA chose to only three operating southside one of which was for business and first class pax then the whole operation took forty mins.

We were bussed to the aircraft which was sitting on the sattelite and boarded on time. There was a few problems loading luggage which put us a bit behind but the main problem was the ramp crew had moved on which of course delayed us for an hour because they couldnt remove the steps of unhook the jetty.

From what I saw on T5 it is a massive step forward from T1 though and I think with time it will settle down to a pretty smooth operation.

One question though and it may be a daft one, why is the 757 fleet still operating from T1, is it just the routes they fly or somthing else?

[ZFT]

hetrotrolleydoll,

Noted. Thanks and pleased you were looked after properly. Does make a nice change eh.

[derekvader]

One question though and it may be a daft one, why is the 757 fleet still operating from T1, is it just the routes they fly or somthing else?

Long before T5 opened I read somewhere that the 757 fleet does not have the necessary fittings or equipment to carry the containerised baggage.

[Dysag]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1311835,00.html


P.S. If you want a containerised system, you'll have to buy an A321.
No possibility in the 757.

[pasoundman]

Predictable really.

Maybe BA management should just SHUT UP and announce it's working when it really is working ?

What a bunch of useless loonies they are ! They're completely out of touch with reality. The entire board should have to work the desks, baggage etc THEMSELVES for a few days to see how it works.

[Blink182]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Courtney
One question though and it may be a daft one, why is the 757 fleet still operating from T1, is it just the routes they fly or somthing else?

Long before T5 opened I read somewhere that the 757 fleet does not have the necessary fittings or equipment to carry the containerised baggage.

Should be ideally suited for T5 then :p

[747-436]

Wow, BAA have finally taken some responsibility!! Took them a week to do it!!

[El Grifo]

And to think I was flamed a couple of weeks ago for saying that air travel was now akin to war.

I have never seen a organized system crumble so quickly as air travel has over the last few years.

[aviate1138]

T5 Baggage computer crash as at 16:10 BBC News :(

[Two-Tone-Blue]

T5 Baggage computer crash as at 16:10 BBC News :(

Outstanding ... do you see a day when flying with luggage is not an option? Or that we self-load before climbing the steps to the ac [as Piers/Fingers or whatever they're called now become optional?

It would all be fairly funny, in a Monty Python way, if it wasn't so tragic.

Anyway, good to have the thread back, and anyone on the "inside" who could actually tell us WTF is happening would be welcome, I suspect.

[Chris Scott]

Quote from GobonaStick [April01/13:13, currently #867]:
How on earth does it take 90min to find a set of steps at an international airport? What was the crew on the aircraft/ground doing all that time?
[Unquote]

Catching up on this thread, the above comment - a perfectly understandable and reasonable one - gives cause for a wry smile. No one who has not worked on the Ramp can appreciate the problem for crews (and ground staff, like Dispatcher/Redcaps) when an aeroplane arrives on stand, but there are no jetty or steps available.

Short of deploying the emergency escape slides, it is usually physically impossible for the crew to get off the aircraft. On smaller types, it used to be easy because they had airstairs or equivalent. Think of the One-Eleven, with its rear stairs.

The situation has not been helped by the airlines themselves. BA's first A320s had airstairs. They were a bit long, and the hand-rail LOOKED a bit fragile, so were not popular with everyone. Crews and ground staff often found them invaluable. The installation weighed about as much as 1 or 2 passengers. When BA ordered more A320-family (A319s) for mainline, they decided against airstairs (weight, cost, and maintenance). So, with a drop of about 8 feet to the concrete, the crews are completely stranded.

In a desperate (but non-emergency) situation, there used to be a way out through the avionics bay. From there, you could open an external hatch and use a built-in ladder to get to the ground. For reasons not entirely clear at the time, internal access to the avionics bay was sealed off over 10 years ago.

Few things are more frustrating and embarrassing for a crew than arriving on stand and being unable to disembark. Getting off the aeroplane often enables you to find suitable steps, if required, and someone to help you deploy them; Health and Safety permitting. :ugh: It's not specifically a T5 issue, but bring back airstairs on narrow-bodies!

[garp]

Transited this afternoon from the US via T5 to Brussels. 2 out of 5 bags never made it to Brussels, a large group from my plane was also claiming lost luggage. Luckily the lost luggage desks at Brussels were fully manned, they have been since T5 went in Ops. Pretty sad state of affairs really but I knew that I had a pretty good chance of loosing a bag or two. Hope for the best but expect the worst. As a matter of fact it could have been worse as on departure at LHR we had to sit at the holding point for about 20 minutes because the flight deck received info that an unclaimed bag was on board. A return to the stand and refuelling was a very likely option for a while.
No hard feelings whatsoever against BA or BA staff, they were obviously trying their best to cope with a poorly functioning system.

[Capvermell]

Well BBC News24 is now reporting another 20 flights cancelled today due to an unexpected software glitch (wouldn't that be the same software glitch that has existed all along but that was previously blamed on BA's Loaders) and that BAA claims they will be working urgently overnight on fixing this!

But what has happened to BAEngineering. Has he simply not realised that this thread has been unlocked or have the BA Secret Police finally tracked him down and banned him from any further posts under immediate threat of receiving the sack?

[BBCNEWS24hr]

I've been reading PPRUNE for sometime now and following this thread in particular. It has been very interesting and a great insight into the goings on and reasons for failure at the recently opened Terminal 5. I was particularily intrigued at the poster BAengineering, it comes as some disappointement that this poster was recently banned.

This appears to be because this poster was being attacked by other 'pro BA' individuals, for defending his position he has been selected for exclusion,

I for one feel this thread has become rather stale and undynamic without this input from the inside.

Maybe PPRUNE could consider reinstating this poster?

[BBCNEWS24hr]

Capvermell, have a look at one of the BAengineering posts, beside the name it says 'Banned persona non grata', meaning not welcome on PPRUNE.

I thought this poster gave very good insight into the problems at BA, kept this thread vibrant and alive,

Not sure if BA found those engineers or somehow contacted PPRUNE to have this poster banned, either way it doesn;t seem very good.

[Sallyann1234]

Do you think people here are that gullible?
This forum is far better off without you.

[vanHorck]

perhaps the moderator can comment?

[BBCNEWS24hr]

Sorry Sallyanne1234, what do you mean? Are you suggesting I am impersonating the character which has been banned?

That i very far from the truth, I actually work as an independant journo, I use PPRUNE from time to time to glean the inside edge on aviation stories.

Never needed to jump in before, just a little aggrieved the BAengineerig poster has been banned, indeed I wanted to actually meet the person behind the poster. They have provided alot of information for an article I am currently writing on UK PLC and their internal workings.

I;m sure the people that are better off without him being here are BA, that's for sure. But then they have successfully shut down media from getting into T5.

[infrequentflyer789]

Well BBC News24 is now reporting another 20 flights cancelled today due to an unexpected software glitch (wouldn't that be the same software glitch that has existed all along but that was previously blamed on BA's Loaders) and that BAA claims they will be working urgently overnight on fixing this!


I think it is interesting that there appears to be a change of media handling this time:
a) immediate release of cause - "software glitch"
b) baa reported as "taking full responsibility" "working overnight to fix it"

I recall it being a lot later on the first day before anyone showed up taking any responsibility.

It gives me the impression that this time it really is a systems failure and down to BAA.


But what has happened to BAEngineering.

See other thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4025554&postcount=166

[Duck Rogers]

Those discussing the T5 issue were driven off as it deteriorated into a slagging session. I've no axe to grind either way with BA (the company) but it became clear that BAEngineering's post were spoiling the original thread, it went way off topic and clearly needed splitting.

In the meantime BAEngineering was starting to spoil other threads so was given a temporary ban to cool off. Despite my posting an explanation of why the thread was offline he started new threads claiming BA influence over the mods :rolleyes:. It took almost an hour (of my own time) to split the original thread so as you can imagine I've little sympathy for someone who tried to make my task even more difficult.

It looks like this thread is starting to drift again. If you've issues with BA management please post in THAT thread. I'm too tired to edit/split this again. The 'delete' button is so much easier.

By the way. I didn't ban him.

[whattimedoweland]

Short and sweet........

WALSH OUT,KIRKWOOD OUT.THEY ARE BOTH TOTALLY INCOMPETENT.

They are an embarasment to we the staff at BA who I feel are in general are a good workforce,demotivated and mis managed by the worst leadership team I have known in my 22 years.

I feel sorry for our long suffering passengers.Cut back after cut back,BA station staff replaced by second rate contract companies who don't give a damn about OUR BA passengers.

I don't know the answer but a start has to be the removal (without a GOLDEN hand shake)!!,of our most disliked CEO ever,Willie Walsh.

WTDWL.

[Sallyann1234]

@DuckRogers
This new character is just Bae again. Check the consistent errors.

[Capvermell]

I've been reading PPRUNE for sometime now and following this thread in particular. It has been very interesting and a great insight into the goings on and reasons for failure at the recently opened Terminal 5. I was particularily intrigued at the poster BAengineering, it comes as some disappointement that this poster was recently banned.BBC News24 its good to know that some real journos have been reading this thread. As one personally heavily involved in the www.saynoto0870.com (http://www.saynoto0870.com) website and campaign I have consistently been disappointed by just how few national newspaper journalists seem to actually ever do any research of their own on the multi billion pound 084/7 NTS ripoff industry or the apparently deliberate conspiracy of the so called regulator (Ofcom) to keep it in business. Far too many journalists in this field simply seem to simply reproduce the biased official press releases of Ofcom without almost any independent minded analysis at all.

Coming back to this site I have to say this thread has been the exception that proves the rule on a site where posts are normally heavily controlled and where comments from anyone deemed not to be an aviation expert are frequently summarily removed without any indication to the poster this has happened or any explanation for doing so. I believe a completely open debate was originally permitted in this particular case because even the management of this website were so aghast at the ineptitude of BA/BAA over T5.

Obviously one can imagine that BA Engineering (if he/they actually existed as I believe he/they did) would be very hard for BA to live with and as a website of his kind is reliant on friends in the aviation industry for advertising support and other special favours it would seem that eventually pressure was brought to bear on the management to ban him they could not resist. This was probably why initially closing this thread to hide that ban seemed the easier option but then they were no doubt inundated with complaints about suppressing the debate. I find this disappointing as almost nothing BAEngineering said was actually libelous, even though it was probably mutinous and dismissable in terms of any employee's contractual obligations (if indeed that person was still a BA employee as they could for instance be a retired BA employee being regularly informed by still employed colleagues).

This appears to be because this poster was being attacked by other 'pro BA' individuals, for defending his position he has been selected for exclusionIt seems clear that BAEngineering would like to talk to a journalist such as yourself and so my suggestion would be that he uses another computer with another IP address to create another identity on this forum and then PMs you his details so you can contact him.

[BBCNEWS24hr]

Capvermell, nice post and great site noto0870, use it frequently myself, one happy customer.

Yes I agree if BAengineering is reading these posts, please PM me and I will assure your anonimity is protected, guaranteed. I did see one of his posts and it said he was going to share some very important information in PPRUNE very soon. Looks like that won't happen now, I for one was intrigued to know what it was.

I will bow out now from posting, I'm sure SallyAnne can relax, I will let you know if BAeng surfaces and makes contact. Last thing, my earlier post about the arrests at T5, it really would help to have some inside knowledge. Finally, there are some lazy journos out there, modify the standard press release but I know many who work hard on their research and indeed use PPRUNE also.

Bye for now, keep up the good work.

[Duck Rogers]

Computer says "Yes" :rolleyes: