A2 Pay?

[jollygreenfunmachine]

Anyone heard/started/know anything about an incentive payment for A2 instructors? Been bandied around to encourage more rotary instructors to upgrade to A2.

[Mick Strigg]

April the first is next week!

[minigundiplomat]

Been bandied around to encourage more rotary instructors to upgrade to A2.


Most of the QHI's I know will be getting a pay increase from the Airlines in the non too distant future. Can't see them getting excited about an AIP or some other lame measure,

[AllTrimDoubt]

Paid twice if qualified A2 both rotary and fixed wing...

And backdated...

I wish!

:ok:

[abbotyobs]

From the fast-jet world, I cannot imagine how you can give an A2 instructor more money than chaps who stay on the front-line, doing Op flying.
So here you go after you first tour, you opt to become a QFI, Valley, Linton or even a UAS, home very night, stable environment, no chance of being shot at, and you are saying that these QFIs should be paid more than front-line pilots, who are spending 6 months away from home, not to mention all the other factors that make front-line Ops a strain.
Nonsense!

[spheroid]

Why would we waste money on that? On my unit 50% of the instructors are A2's.


Nope, if there is some spare money flying around then I'd like some decent goggles please

[jollygreenfunmachine]

abbotyobs

It's not my suggestion mate. Besides, there is already an AIP in place if you become an instructor, ergo a reward for putting in the efffort to become an instructor. Surely if you are prepared to put in the effort to become an A2, to meet service need, you should be rewarded again?

And don't they have A2's on the front line doing Op flying? And unlike the fixed wing world, to get to be an instructor on rotary, you will certainly have done your fair share of 'Op flying'.

[Gnd]

Don't know if it is a bite but I am an A2 who has just got back from Ops, really looking forward to my next stint. Nights and spydr's are the best bit!!!!!

I'll haver a penny or 2 if it is going, as an A2, I am good enough with whichever goggles!!!;)

[Farfrompuken]

I've heard that it'll be a SUBSTANTIAL amount to nearly match civilian equivalents; payable to those who are in CFS and beyond, with an A2 and are in a position to offer their instructional abilities in the future (i.e. non-career dudes).

[Redcarpet]

Sounds intriguing and a fine idea ;)

[wg13_dummy]

Gnd;
Don't know if it is a bite but I am an A2 who has just got back from Ops, really looking forward to my next stint. Nights and spydr's are the best bit!!!!!

I'll haver a penny or 2 if it is going, as an A2, I am good enough with whichever goggles!!!


Youre an A3 arent you? :rolleyes:


The AAC is strongly rumoured to be 'rationalising' rank structure for QHIs. B2 Sgt, B1 SSgt, A2 WOII. Essentially, QHI at the school; SSgt. SQHI, WO2. Indep Sqn QHI WO2/WO1. As always, I'll not be popping down to William Hills until its in. :hmm:

[Uncle Ginsters]

Sounds great...but too good to be true!

If it is on the cards, here's one suggestion - only make the pay applicable on returning to the front line. Maybe that would help cut out a certain type of QFI/QHI who stays in PTC for 15 yrs dodging anything that might mean them missing quiz night at the Red Lion.

....but where do we sign up?!?

Uncle G :ok:

[teeteringhead]

And unlike the fixed wing world, to get to be an instructor on rotary... I guess the point that was being made was that rotary don't have creamies.....

.... when once in the training business, I recall asking one of my instructors if he's go for his A2 ...

.... his reply: "No thanks boss, I'll manage somehow without the extra pay ...."

But this was in the bad old days of having to know the number of rivets in the cabin door ....

[Gnd]

WG,

Well may be a B1+, I did do a lot of practices for the '+' unlike the very lucky ones who can bluff better. I must admit, I thought the rank thing was in the bank and didn't know it hadn’t happened!

I would love the promotion, but untill then £££££ are fine.

[wg13_dummy]

Gnd, it is quote; '100%' but 100% in this environment is sometimes different to 100% on the rest of the planet. ;)

[HEDP]

Not sure I like the idea of promotion granted for passing trade upgrades. Nothing to say that a sparkling instructor also has the bearing and skills required to hold down a leadership position or the like.

I prefer the idea of having earned the promotion in the traditional way that the posts you can occupy have a rank requirement befitting the position. Some instructors have fallen on their sword over not having the interpersonal skills to interface with the chain of command at an appropriate level.

Note also that I refer to instructors and not QHIs specifically. It will take some time yet before many realise that AIs are all equals each with their own discipline. All of these instructional disciplines deliver capability although at present only flying instructors appear to have a monetary advantage in civvy street therefore do they need further recompense?

[wg13_dummy]

only flying instructors appear to have a monetary advantage in civvy street therefore do they need further recompense?

To keep them in, yes otherwise they will be seeking monetary advantage in civvy street...... it's another FRI of sorts.


HEDP, why do you think the AAC is so short of QHIs?

Ans: Nobody wants to take the plunge because they see it as a promotion halt in most circumstances and cant see why they should put the extra effort in to get bugger all out of it. Ok, the pride in doing the job is one thing but the 'novelty' wears off after a while.

Most chaps would rather stay as a line shag, spending the time organising sqn BBQ's getting the superficial ticks in the boxes and thus getting promoted. Dont tell me you dont agree with how the AAC system of reward works?

[HEDP]

I can agree with some of your points but I note you still only refer to QHIs and 'line shags'. Until we accept that there is a broader scope of instructional posts then the wider AI community will suffer.

There are more AI (non-QHI) posts gapped than QHI and in some cases QHIs are haviing to fill those gaps. QHI comes with a moderate time bar as a golden handcuff whereas EWI/WI not so.

I think you will find that MW is a bit of a mark time for promotion as you compete with your peers but once you escape to the field army and compete with the 'line shags' (your terminology) then it is easier to stand out from the crowd. Better that you earn your promotion in this way than be over promoted for the wrong reasons and then fail to match up to expectation.

IMHO HEDP

[wg13_dummy]

'We' as in the Royal we or 'We' as in them in the portacabin across the A343?

If it’s the Royal 'we', we don’t have a problem with acknowledging other AI trades and quite rightly hope they get the recognition deserved. The latter may have a bit of catching up to do though. Crikey, 'The Corps' quite often fails to realise what century we are in so throwing all these new fangled quals into the pot is just going to confuse them.

One would like to hope we reward those who show potential for the technical side of things as opposed to what you consider to be 'traditional way'. Maybe that’s the problem? We still run the Corps as if it’s an extension of the Royal Artillery as opposed to recognising that most jobs within the Corps (ground and air) have become incredibly technocentric. That in itself does not mean we lose out on quality leadership and management as the 'traditional' methods would provide. We have far too many clever chaps and chapesses who become disenchanted at the lack of recognition of their skills and technical prowess. Why are so many going light and dark blue? What are we not offering them?

Why are the AI posts gapped? Why are people not going for these trades?

As you will be aware, we have plenty of people who are over promoted for the 'right reasons'.



On a completely unrelated subject, why do we have automatic promotion for some officers?

[timex]

I think you will find that MW is a bit of a mark time for promotion as you compete with your peers but once you escape to the field army and compete with the 'line shags' (your terminology) then it is easier to stand out from the crowd. Better that you earn your promotion in this way than be over promoted for the wrong reasons and then fail to match up to expectation.

HEDP, looking at the last few promotions in the AAC for A2 QHI's I would disagree. The last 2 guys who passed A2 up grade in 5 Regt were both overlooked for promotion,

[AHQHI656SQN]

At the risk of thread creep I’m going to throw this one in.

In the current high tempo climate for all Army types there is a shortage of willing volunteers to step up to the QHI course and QFI course alike. Now if you offer the line of least resistance the average pilot will take it, after all, we are all lazy! I digress. If a pilot wants to better himself/herself the old option was the QHI/QFI course. This took a fair bit of effort, even to get a recommend was hard enough, and then the Standards check ride and then the board. I recall that pilots were often deferred and even with a Standards recommend individuals were not guaranteed to be loaded onto a course. Life is very different now. To my knowledge there isn’t a single applicant for QHI training from 4 Regt and QHI courses are bereft of Army pilots! A number of reasons (mainly no one left who’s got the hours!). There is an easier option to get out of the “line shag” rat race. The panacea for instructor shortages which is the AI. For the AAC this a dream come true. For the lazy pilot it is even better. Okay, a recommend is required (most of the time, DE officers can, and have bye-pass that one) I don’t need to attend a difficult to pass course which will up-root the family and get a posting to Wallop. I’m out of the “line shag” rat race, and in a Sqn appointment with minimal effort. Win Win.

Now then, what of the QHI. A dying breed. Unless there is an incentive to get the boys and girls to step up, then the line of least resistance will be the one most often trodden.

As a QHI myself, I would not say "No" to a pay rise, though I do consider myself to be well paid, however my colleagues of the non-QHI type do get slightly better value. The world we all live in is changing. The greed that is inherent in any capitalist market will drive us all to want more money. For me, I’m a bit of a socialist; all I want is the best training for the lads and lasses who are soon to be sent in harms way. Now, if that comes at a cost, then it is a price that must be paid. If we are to place an incentive to get the QHI’s through the door, it will most likely be financial in its origin. We promote REME technicians as far as Sgt in order that we can pay them the required amount to compete with civilian trades. So do we offer promotion to QHI’s and run the risk of over promoting unsuitable leaders, but pay them a higher amount, or do we give them a higher rate of flying pay, I do believe that parachute instructors get instructor rates of para pay!

We all know how long, costly and rewarding the QHI course is. If we can train AI’s to deliver the same quality of training at a fraction of the price, then fine. But so far I am yet to be convinced, something has to give, and unfortunately it is quite often the quality, there are exceptions, I accept. What I do know is this. The demands on our people are increasing, and the rewards seem harder to find. There was a time when quality flying was reward enough, but CH47 escorts in Helmand (and I know B Flt, 18 Sqn RAF, thought they didn’t need them) and currency flying in LFA 10 just don’t cut it any more.

So, the demands on our leadership increase as well. If there isn’t adequate compensation for effort and sacrifice then the current trend of voting with feet will continue.

There, thread creep complete.:ok:

[Chicken Leg]

Tom,

An accurate and eloquent assessment. Glad that you recognised that the problem also exists within Army FW.

You're obviously no longer the thick northern monkey that I remember from Wallop! :E

MM

[Gnd]

I think that you are all correct but the point, forces wide, is that we are not valued enough to encourage the young blood to either apply or go for the A2. Young blood is not interested in extra responsibility when there is fun to be had.

I am old now (probably always was) and can see the benefits, a jump start for the less enlightened might be just what we need. I fear that it will be me and possibly one other left in a few years, great for promotion but soul destroying – I even looked over the fence last week – grass in no less green in my opinion!!!

By the way, AIs are great but we need to at least get the LSN/PID situation sorted so they can attract the rewards they deserve - how many AIs are out of role and not getting pay? Some I know. Give them the FRI for improvement, well, at least sort out how they can upgrade and then pay them - maybe another thread!!!
:suspect:

[Tiger_mate]

If it has not already happened, then it will be a sad day when individuals are ordered to attend the CFS Course. An instructor should be a volunteer and want to teach. The CFS Course rightly has international kudos and is far from an attendance tick in the box. Front line Sqns are strapped and can barely cope with the absent pilot/crewman attending a CFS Course.

However once the training system is diluted by bodged ideas and protocol, we really have reached the end of the line, and accidents will happen with individuals repeating flying procedures and techniques badly taught and based upon individual perception rather then syllabus based procedures. It is bad enough when a maverick QFI/QHI/QHCI is allowed by position of responsibility/authority to "Do it his way".

To get back to the point of the thread, the training system as we know it is dependent upon instructors who have the capacity to give a little bit extra. Who can diagnose the problems associated with an under achieving student and address them for the good of both the system and the student. Who can change procedures if the system is at fault whilst equally chopping a student who is a lost cause for whatever reason. That way the 'right stuff' get to do the job where it matters, and all human potential is realized.

I have seen at first hand the frustration of an individual who is A2 in all but log book/F5000 entry refuse to upgrade because of career management issues, who funny old thing, then got stabbed in the back by PMA and never will see his true potential realized. An 'incentive' of whatever means is needed to 'encourage' good B1 instructors to go the extra mile. A2 takes time & motivation and is bloody hard work, and at the present time is not rewarded at all beyond opening a few posting options.

Aircrew should under no circumstance be penalized for self improvement, and that it the ethos present at this time in the RAF Rotary world. It is time to turn the tide and reward effort with 'something' worth striving for: Whilst I would not agree that we are all lazy (previous poster), that perception is there if you choose to see it.

[minigundiplomat]

but CH47 escorts in Helmand (and I know B Flt, 18 Sqn RAF, thought they didn’t need them)


You are a welcome sight to the rest of us. I personally have nothing but respect for the AH crews I have operated with in theatre, whatever gender!

[AHQHI656SQN]

MGD. A cheap shot, sorry. I know that a lot of water has flowed under the bridge since the naive days back in early 2006. A the risk of sounding like a mutual back patting, I think you'll find all AH drivers have great respect for the job you lads do in those 47's. :D

Tom

[Gnd]

Me too, I don't fly either and they impress the hell out of me.

[angelorange]

Any ideas on basic and flight pay for FTR on EFT A2 cat?

Thanks.

[Co-Captain]

A2 pay is definitely coming in. . .

. . as is a reduction in pay for A1s due to being completely non-standard :}

[PNVS]

Get this if you want to be a QFI (QHI) in OZ and you do not have any ROSO it will cost the individual. They will take a hit in the pay packet! Thousands of $$.
That will have them beating the door down in Oakey. :ugh:

[Dave Stewart]

I'm an A1 and my way is standard.

[chinook240]

Yea, right, Dave! http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/c2c/galleries/albums/167/719268278/Angels/catfight.gif

(Can't be the Dave Stewart?)

[bpster]

This may have been mentioned already but why should A2 training dinosaurs get paid more than a front line fast jet QWI? The course is much harder and requires a pretty sharp handle on all the latest punchy stuff. QWIs don't have any financial incentive at all! (to my knowledge!)

[[email protected]]

bpster - I think the point of this thread is that all Q qualifications should attract financial reward since there is no incentive other than professional pride to be a QHI/QFI/QWI/QHCI. This practise is not reflected in the civilian world where extra skills cost extra money.

There are plenty of CR pilots/rearcrew in crewrooms around the world who get paid the same as their instructors/trainers/trappers which really isn't fair when you consider the extra work and reponsibility those posts entail.

[chinook240]

Surely the arguement is not just about rewarding or incentivising (sp?) the Q qualification, in particular the more experienced, but retention as well. In the same way that flying pay is meant to keep us all happy in our work and not jump ship when the going gets tough.

[Evalu8ter]

Chinook 240,
I think the hackneyed explanation is that acquiring "Q" ticks is a JO's path to promotion - and that is sufficient "reward" in itself. The PA spine is supposed to reward those that tread a different path, and this is where it's tricky. How do you retain a 42 year old PA F/L or S/L who's got all the ticks and is now utterly fed up on the Ops treadmill? With a decent pension waiting the siren song of civvie street (and the nagging of the nagger!) can lead to this experienced Q cadre leaving. Perhaps more pervasive though is the lack of genuine rest tours and the fact that much of the "fun" flying has evaporated. In our world, throw in the fact that many of the older guys have bought property before the boom and have subsequently smaller mortgages. I think that this problem will really bite as the current crop near their IPP at 38, esp when we exit the recession....

[Gnd]

bpstr, get over your ego - as an A2 I will be more than happy to pick you up in the Op theatres if your Tonka toy gets into trouble, as I and many of my A2 colleagues will. Maybe it is your very small and parochial career pool that are dinosaurs - on the whole the rest of us DO work for our PA!!

[L J R]

so 250K Stirling it is then..........no....???? oh well, must move on to someone who will..

[Bob Viking]

Oh please can we have another QWIs are better than QFIs rumble?! It's been a while and it always brings a smile to my face.
BV:yuk:

[noprobs]

angelorange,

I hope that posting a response to your question doesn't cause too much distraction from the ensuing trivial pursuits. The total package at the moment adds up to about £60K. If you ring the man named in the job advertisement, he can give you the exact breakdown and advise how it may be affected by your own circumstances (possible pension abatement etc).

[bpster]

Sorry Gnd, I wasn't attempting to upset you and wasn't expecting a flash. I was picking on the far extremes and putting them together. You must except that there are many old A2s in the training system on all types that have been there for so long that they have lost sight of what they are doing. I was just comparing them. As after all, they are paid the same. Oh and where did Tonka come from??!!??

Thanks [email protected] for your response, as for the Q argument, I have had a quick read up and not only is the title A2pay, but everything is relating to QHI/QFI/QHCI. I may be wrong here but im sure QWI had not been mentioned. I just thought it should be thrown in there somewhere!

As for incentive, certainly in my field, you are going nowhere without a Q of some kind. A vast majority of 1st tour bods will end up on a QFI or QWI course at the end of it. Certainly for pilots, I struggle to find a second/third tourist that hasnt got a "Q" tick.

Im sorry for making a split there but they are 2 different worlds.

[Bob Viking]

Back pedalling so quick your legs are a blur!
So are all A2s dinosaurs then?
Just how hard is the QWI course?
What aircraft do you fly?
So many questions, so little time!
BV;)

[bpster]

mm fishing now! that wasn't a back pedal, more of a clarification of a poorly put argument! As for the rest, I thought this was meant to be reasonably anon?! Sometimes you feel you need to add detail to add credibility to your argument but then you have to think, if its a good argument, it should stand on it's own. If that makes sense?!
Or were you just curious?!

[BEagle]

Just how hard is the QWI course?

Piece of pi$$. You merely need to learn one or more of the following phrases:

"Range, track...range, track!"
"Out of range!"
"Ride up, early pickle!"
"Compensating errors!"
"Sight piccie...sight piccie...FFS Sight picture, idiot!

"Whaddya mean, Delta Hotel?"

[Easy Street]

Beagle,

Top banter! But those once oft-heard phrases are now the preserve only of the Pembrey Range Instructors (capitalised since I heard a rumour that they are no longer putting Hawk instructors through the combined QWI course)! And hopefully once the Hawk T2 is in full service they can stop bothering about aim-off, ride-up etc and just concentrate on CCIP bombing (or is that too easy?)