National Union of Teachers vote to stop MoD recruitment in Schools

[mutleyfour]

Shocked and definitely not in awe.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article3618018.ece

[mutleyfour]

A quote:

"We would have material from the MoD saying, Join the Army and we will send you to carry out the imperialist occupation of other people’s countries."

Imperialistic Occupation, and thats from a teacher, heaven forbid!

[D O Guerrero]

Is it possible that the article actually makes some good points?
It pains me to agree with the NUT in any respect... it really does. But if you read the article they make some fair points about life in the modern armed forces.
I'm NOT saying I agree with what they are suggesting, just that I am glad that the points they make are being made.

[MReyn24050]

Any idea how many schools still have a Combined Cadet Force? That will be the next thing these teachers will want to be disbanded.

[airborne_artist]

Any idea how many schools still have a Combined Cadet Force? That will be the next thing these teachers will want to be disbanded.

The vast majority of CCFs are in fee-paying schools. I very much doubt you'd get a member of the NUT teaching in a fee-paying school - the NUT is somewhat to the left of Tony Benn :ok:

[HEDP]

Perhaps the military should pass a resolution calling for the NUT not to interfere with post education career choices for the masses and only to involve itself in negotiations regarding the terms and conditions of employment for its members, or am I being silly........

We are talking about a trades union and not a political or lobbying organisation are we not......

I'll get my coat

HEDP

[ranger703]

"It must be obvious from every other NUT Conference that the NUT does not represent the vast majority of teachers' views and opinions. The NUT negotiating body represents teachers in salary and condition negotoiations, and the Union has many commendable policies and advice on Education. But the Conferences are simply days out and forums for the extremist political voices of the Union. Very few teachers take any notice of the hot air that emanates from the Conference, which provides the media with some jolly good stories!

Terry, Bath, UK"

:D:D:D

[seafuryfan]

If the teachers behind this have mainly seen, "It's great, you get to see the world, do (whatever the trade is), great times, great mates" etc, and AVOID talking about the less savoury bottom line issues (getting killed, wounded, fighting even if you don't agree with the cause), I can see why they think that way.

On the other hand, a management person wouldn't include in their sell, "You might die early through stress", would they. I don't think there's any harm in raising AWARENESS in schools that the armed forces have some good jobs to be had. But the recruiters should give at least some idea that it's not just a great job without mentioning the danger factor.

As we've been at war for 5 years, seems at the moment that the public know all about the hazards anyway. So I think it's a bad decision. One up for the veggie quiche brigade.

[ORAC]

Shock horror - NUT full of bearded, sandal wearing, Maoist-Trotskyist, CND supporting pacifists. So what's new?

The good news, if the teachers are against the kids will be lining up to find out what they want to hide from them.

[A2QFI]

I don't think State Schools are a very fruitful source of military recruits anyway. Hundreds of thousands of pupils leave them without any worthwhile grade of the pathetic GCSE exams and even those who are selected for military training have to have a 12 week remedial reading, writing and maths course to get them to standard where they can even start to be trained.

[soddim]

Whilst I would not wish for a natural disaster requiring the help of the military or another extended fireman's strike, it would provide an opportunity for these lefties to see some advantage in having a military force.

One also wonders at the views expressed by some of them that '16 is too young'. Well, at that age they are probably several years into an active sex life, have got drunk many times and are probably experimenting with several drugs. A bit of good old fashioned military service would do all of them a power of good and might just rectify the years of indiscipline at the hands of these teachers.

Who knows, if they all did three years or so as they had to with National Service, we might end up with a better society to live in.

[charliegolf]

even those who are selected for military training have to have a 12 week remedial reading, writing and maths course to get them to standard where they can even start to be trained.

Is that ISS? Or would that be a sweeping statement?

CG (Headteacher of this parish, whose pupils leave primary at 11 not requiring a 3 month refresher before moving on.)

And yes, the NUT conference-goers are tits.

[Wensleydale]

Anybody know what power the NUT has to stop visits by the Armed Forces to schools? I would have thought that it was down to the school governers and the Head Teacher to decide, or am I being too traditional?

[LFFC]

When I were a lad, several of the teachers at my Boy's Secondary Modern school were ex-servicemen - and proud of it! Not only were they bl00dy good teachers, but they also knew how to handle the troublemakers. Sadly, that generation have long gone, and look what they've been replaced by! It's no surprise that so many state schools are failing these days.

Maybe this government should consider giving currently serving military personnel, who have instructional skills, proper accreditation and maybe some financial incentives to entice them into the teaching profession?

[SirToppamHat]

Is that ISS?

Err no - ISS doesn't include maths! ;)

STH

[charliegolf]

Anybody know what power the NUT has to stop visits by the Armed Forces to schools?

Yes. None. They could ballot for industrial action, but they look daft enough already on this topic.

CG

[gar170]

Would not be the Impressionable youths with Knives that they need airport metal detectors that they are worried about is it.
I heard on the radio this morning that its because they are told lies that they leave after four yrs.I wonder if its just the fact that they come across something that their not used to or can handle like Discipline.

[ninja-lewis]

MoD site for lesson plans:

http://www.defencedynamics.mod.uk/

[minigundiplomat]

RANT ON

The NUT are simply an anagram with the C and S missing. These lefty scum should concentrate on educating the illiterate and inarticulate generation we see on street corners. I managed to pass my O Levels despite them, not because of them. They were on strike for most of the year leading up to the exams. Most have never done a proper job, and are therefore unaware of what goes on in the 'real world'. I can't wait to leave the military, but at least Ive spent the last 20 years helping make history, instead of commenting on it and making judgements.

Oh that's better.

RANT OFF

[minigundiplomat]

No fun. Whenever someone disagrees with something they are hounded off the forum.


Short memory?

Didn't say it would count for much when I leave. Try reading the post.

[tutgby]

Frankly the MOD have got more of a problem of retention of personnel rather than recruitment; I very much doubt that there will be a huge effect in doing this(even if its even passed successfully!).
May even be counter-productive in advertising the Armed Forces to the public (a story like this would unfortunately probably be given more publicity on the news than the death of a British soldier etc.).
Either way, just some more people trying to throw their weight around for very limited gain. :ugh:

[minigundiplomat]

I see you are the same UN Class as Fireworks. Is that what your hoping for?


So what you are now saying is that unless you have carried troops around in the back of a helicopter during wars in various countries you aren't good enough?

Your interpretation, not mine.


I think you might be in for a bit of a shock when you join the real world.


As we have never met, and you have no idea what my background, qualifications, life experience, outlook or plans are, that's quite a bold statement. I'm not sure views on the NUT are a hot topic in most job interviews.

You just seem to drift from post to post. You are either trying to be witty, a task for which you seem ill-equipped or just argumentative. You can reply as much as you like mon brave but I really can't be bothered. Goodbye to you sir!

[Thelma Viaduct]

I've got no time for lefties (especially the fascist liberal types) or the opposition/s.

They're spot on though.

Why risk your one chance at life for a bunch of robbing murdering liars.

No thanks.

I was proud to sign up for HM, breaking the covenant changes all that. They must learn to accept their lies or else they'll just do it again and again once the 'great' british public has forgotten about it all.

They haven't even got the decency to give them the best kit to fight for their lies, as well as try to eradicate responsibility by interfering with the inquest procedure.

Well done to the NUT or whatever they're called.

[biggles111]

The only problem removing MOD careers visits will have, is that the teachers will now have to supervise their charges instead of dumping a whole yeargroup into the assembly hall and disappearing for a crafty smoke, whilst expecting some poor sob recruiter to try and keep order with 100+ kids.

[mutleyfour]

I thought Freedom of choice was a fundamental part of the way of life in this country.

But the thing that causes me concern is the dialogue from the meeting. I saw a clip on the news last night and I would suggest this is more about the anti war feeling of the NUT rather than the MoD being allowed in schools, and this is the best mechanism for them to show their contempt.

[HEDP]

Surely if this was taken to a fanciful conclusion and the NUT are succesful in reducing recruitment to the military in the way they seek then the only alternative to maintain the military would be to reintroduce national service thereby everyone gets a bit of the action.

Not such a bad prospect methinks but my wouldn't the NUT be proud..........

[parabellum]

Just a personal view but I think a few of you are missing the point. Looking at the present governments past performance and the performance of post WW2 Labour governments I think they will be very happy to see the armed forces continually reduce until they are about the size of the Home Guard as this would leave them with a lot more money to squander on any useless project they can think of.

Labour politicians are not Service minded in any way at all, they can only think of themselves so the idea that, "When things get bad enough they will have to do something" is a pipe dream, things are going exactly as they want them to.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I agree with parabellum. Forgive me for banging on about this again but I'm still convinced that old time International Socialism is quietly hiding away in Noo Labore. They are covertly achieving all the things that escaped them in the past and acquiring either Public appeal or indifference. Look at what's been done to the Constitution and the plans for the future.

[minigundiplomat]

beware The Troll 1.4g.

if You Have A Different Viewpoint He Likes To Send Pm's Calling You A Throbber Etc.

ignore Him And He May Go Away.

[8-15fromOdium]

This is all being portrayed in the media as the NUT trying to ensure that school students get an impartial view of events in the middle east, I can't argue with this but looking at the NUT conference agenda (http://www.teachers.org.uk/resources/pdf/3837-Final%20Agenda.pdf) you will see that the motion endorses the following:


Co-sponsor with the Stop the War Coalition and its other affiliated trade unions, mindful of existing legal guidelines, curriculum learning materials on peace and militarisation. In addition, the Union agrees to purchase and circulate the most recent education pack produced by the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, which promotes an understanding of the history of this most protracted dispute in the Middle East.


What we are seeing is a bit of political grandstanding from a group of people who haven't grown out of the sixth form debating societies they previously (dis)graced. What beggars believe to me is the standard of journalism that is attached to this and other issue surrounding the military. A bit of research turns up these facts that journalists fail to challenge the NUT on.

[noregrets]

EOSM37

Imams - purveyors of terror and evil? Infecting our young with the wickedness and teachings of the Koran?

Pass me your brush, my shed roof needs tarring.

;)

[Auster Fan]

Anybody know what power the NUT has to stop visits by the Armed Forces to schools? I would have thought that it was down to the school governers and the Head Teacher to decide, or am I being too traditional?
The Head Teacher has the ultimate say on who is invited to speak in a school. Given that when I was the Squadron Commander of an ATC Squadron, they wouldn't let me or any other uniformed member of staff in to talk about the advantages of being an ATC cadet, the chances of letting in Service personnel were nil and reducing; whether that has changed subsequently, I don't know. They think we turn all 13 - 20 year olds into steely eyed monsters, rather than well rounded, self disciplined and well mannered individuals (generally speaking). Golden Brown (and President Blair before he) is very keen to promote citizenship in schools. That has been enshrined in the Aims of the Corps since 1968, at least. Shame they don't tell the NUT that......................

[Wyler]

It is up to the Head Teacher. I am a Governor at 2 schools and they do not like the radical Union types anymore than we do.

This problem is not just confined to the Armed Forces. They do not like having business in either. At a Confernece two years ago the Personnel Manager of a National chainstore gave us a presentation on what they are looking for from school leavers to enter their management programmes. They had approached 1000 schools and only been allowed into 19!! They would not let in the NHS or similar either.

There are too many 'dead wood' teachers who live in a time-warp and pass on out of date information to the kids. They do not want the real world to creep in and spoil their pension plans. There are, however, also some truly inspirational teachers as well so all is not lost.

On a more positive note the High Schools have now introduced a 1 year Uniformed Services course for post GCSE students. Lately, at the High School I am a Governor at, they had 4 Royal Marines come up for 3 days and 'beast' the kids. Not sure of its worth but the point is NUT does not necessarily talk for the majority, although there is undoubtedly a very left leaning slant within most schools.

What is needed are 'Job Fairs' between GCSE and sixth form where all types of careers are showcased.

I think it's called freedom of speech and choice......

[charliegolf]

Bit of context:

NUT has c100 000 members. How many were in the conference? 500?

In my school, I regularly throw out all the union bumph after about a month- unopened.

In 2003, 35000 votes were cast on an issue; 86% were in favour of boycotting the tests (in England), and that number couldn't swing the action.

The current pay ballot is by no means certain to win.

The people on the telly ARE NOT representitive of 'Joe Teacher': none of my staff wear sandals, are gay or lesbian by trade, and are by no means lefties.

CG

(who's helping this story live way past its chip paper threshold.)

[exrotarybooty]

I reckon there has always been 'atmosphere' between some members of the teaching profession and forces personnel.

Serving in the Royal Marines, and living in Plymouth in the 60s with my then wife, a teacher, I accompanied her to a gathering of her colleagues. They soon sussed I was a Bootneck, and the welcoming atmosphere changed instantly.

I was then approached, and asked if I had killed anyone!

I admitted I hadn't, but the evening was just starting, and I hadn't had time yet.

We left soon after that!

ERB

[airborne_artist]

FWIW there are some perfectly sensible schools and heads out there. My daughters attend a single-sex comprehensive not a million miles from Benson. They have one session a week for non-academic work, and a recent option has been "the Army" led/taught by lads/ladies from the RLC EOD regiment next door.

All the Armed Services get a chance to present at the careers sessions.

The lesson from this is for all COs to get out and talk to their local schools in conjunction with ACLOs and get over that while Iraq and Afghanistan are part of the job, they are not all of the job.

[splitbrain]

I think its easy to see whats going on here. The NUT executives who drew up this motion are politically and ideologically opposed to our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan and are expressing their displeasure against a part of the establishment they hold partly responsible. They cannot or will not differentiate between the role of the armed forces and that of the government whose policies the services must enact.

[doubledolphins]

Funny that the MOD says that they do not recruit in schools. I was recruited in school. But then neither I nor my school were exactly what you would call deprived. As to emphasising the rebuilding and relief work done by the forces, I would sugest the NUT look at the latest adverts for the Green Death. Not much emphasis on pink and fluffy but rather a lot on kill or be killed. Splitbrain is correct.
I have spoken to my year 11 daughter on the subject and after realising that "Captain Ginger" would indeed carry on visiting her school she calmed down. She also tells me that teachers are not allowed to voice an opionion in class. So I guess this vote is just a way of getting around that. An attempt to keep people out of school who will put one side of an argument that some teachers are fundamentally opposed to but would not be able to argue against. If that is true, then what has happened to freedom of speach?

[doubledolphins]

It had some bloody good ones, including one lauded by Jeramy Paxman recently. But I hated them all and no one taught me to type! :ok:

[snapper41]

First, the use of the word 'propaganda' is entirely inappropriate by the NUT (when describing Forces recruiting). Propaganda is used to further a cause or doctrine, such as Marxism or Nazism (for example), not recruiting.

Secondly, does the NUT practice what it preaches? Let's investigate...well, I'm sure you've all seen the recruiting adverts for teachers on the TV and in the press - the 'use your head; teach' ones. Do any of those adverts state that, if you become a teacher, that you may be subjected to assault by the pupils (physical or verbal); that drugs and weapons are prevalent in schools; that if you try to control your unruly pupils, that you will likely be charged yourself; and that there is a good chance that you will leave the profession within 3 years because of ill-health, stress or assault? Has the NUT done anything to make sure that these facts are properly represented? Errrr, no.

Thirdly, last week the Training & Development Agency for Schools (a govt dept that organises teacher training) sent out a letter to all teachers who have left in the past few years, encouraging them to come back; there is a staffing crisis in schools. The letter cites improvements in the job, such as more pay and better hours. One John Illingworth, who resigned as a head teacher 3 years ago due to mental illness bought on by stress, addressed the NUT Conference yesterday stating that the letter is 'damned lies; we shouldn't encourage people into teaching on the basis of lies because, if we do, half of them will leave in the first 3 years'.

NUT - get your own house in order first.

[davejb]

Maybe this government should consider giving currently serving military personnel, who have instructional skills, proper accreditation and maybe some financial incentives to entice them into the teaching profession?


Actually, although the result of personal choice rather than a Government initiative, teaching is awash with ex-servicemen...it's something a lot of us seem to decide to do to supplement the pension. From personal observation we tend to go into the 'hard/black and white' subjects. I don't mean to offend anyone, Maths, Technical, Sciences - things you can do with a screwdriver, you might call them, rather than 'Comparative religion', 'Sportd Management', 'Media Studies' and the like.


The only problem removing MOD careers visits will have, is that the teachers will now have to supervise their charges instead of dumping a whole yeargroup into the assembly hall and disappearing for a crafty smoke, whilst expecting some poor sob recruiter to try and keep order with 100+ kids. (Biggles111)


I guess this varies school to school - I like assemblies, somebody else provides the material and I get to hear stuff I don't normally, perhaps. I'm there though, standing at the end of a row (kids sit, I stand) helping keep order. Interesting to do this when a local clergyman is 'recruiting' - he and I went different ways, but 10 years back we sat 3 feet apart on the aircraft.

Wyler has made good points, so has Charlie Golf - the NUT are radical nutters (I'm in Scotland, thank God, them there loons don't affect me), they do not represent schoolteachers as a whole. In any staffroom you'll find Genghis Khan and Mahatma Ghandi...even in the Highlands, where there's only one teacher in the school.

I bet Ross Kemp has done more for recruiting, however, than any official organ of the forces...teenagers love to do Taceval stuff - my retirement plan is to charge servicemen a fiver to supply a stand-in 5th year pupil for them when exercises are called. I'm charging the pupils a tenner - they're usually better off, frankly.

Too much 'tarring with the same brush' is occurring here - it's silly to complain that some sectors of the populace regard all servicemen as steely eyed killers, only to then rant about "all teachers do X" in the next sentence. You can't complain about being stereotyped on the one hand, only to stereotype another profession in the next breath.

As for the standard hoary old chestnuts - teachers actually teach what those in authority say we should teach. Course content is, in the main, set in blocks of stone.

Discipline in schools is not something I, or any other teacher, has any say in - I have to operate within narrow guidelines, set by the local authority, under the overall authority of parliament... I can't sort problem pupils out in any sensible way (I'm allowed to tell pupils off, provided I don't use demeaning terminology - woe betide the teacher who calls somebody an idiot just because they set fire to the pupil next to them for fun). I have suggested to management that we should therefore bluff the kids, pretend to have the power we need

We have the teachers that the politicians, over the past 30 years, decided we should have - and it's the airy fairy lot who exit the classroom sharpish (theory being preferable to practise) who rise up the pyramind to determine policy for the next decade or two - assisted by soundbyte based policy decisions.

[Chugalug2]

Thank you davejb for an excellent and informative post! Your point that:
We have the teachers that the politicians, over the past 30 years, decided we should have - and it's the airy fairy lot who exit the classroom sharpish (theory being preferable to practise) who rise up the pyramind to determine policy for the next decade or two - assisted by soundbyte based policy decisions.
pretty well confirms what I already suspected, that though there may well be many dedicated and potentially effective teachers, the educational industry itself is crap, an asylum literally run by the least appropriate inmates. That spells out disaster just as it would for the aviation industry. That has many systems and procedures in place to try to avoid disaster. Would it not be a good idea if the same applied to education, education, education? Isn't it time that the real customers', ie the kids', interests were paramount, or are they in the same bed as NHS patients?

[exscribbler]

davejb is absolutely right. I spent 40 years (and 72 days) as a teacher and lost count of the number of times the NUT threatened action over some scheme - frequently nothing to do with education - and in the end nothing happened. The Barmy Left took over the NUT some years ago but as their rules require each school to vote individually for action the majority never does anything.

Don't forget it's for Headteachers to decide if a presentation by the Armed Forces is held in a school; the NUT doesn't yet run the schools, you know.

I was several times invited to presentations by all three Services. The Army provided numerous NCOs to guide visitors to the car park, a Brigadier to address us and there was one officer to look after groups of 5 guests - overmanning or what? - but the buffet was excellent.:ok:

The RAF sent a Group Captain, numerous pilots and a string quartet:confused:; the video of the FJs was terrific but the food was diabolical and confirmed the notion that no-one has yet passed the RAF cooks' course.:}

The RN did it all with a Captain, two Lieutenants, a couple of Leading Hands and an AB to work the video system. It was all very understated but I thought they should have brought an RM band.:E

As far as education itself is concerned, I always thought we'd done well if we got to Tuesday in any week without a "major education shake-up" being announced. It took at least a day a week just to read up on the changes.

I haven't had the letter yet asking me to return to save the education world from itself; perhaps they heard me when I told them the next time I entered a school would be to vote...

[pulse1]

This says it all really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4K-Xtzd8EA&NR=1

[FAN BLADE]

To quote the letters page in the Times today "If we wish to keep propaganda out of the classroom, would it not be better to ban members of the NUT rather than members of Her Majesty's Armed Forces"

And that's from a member of the cloth...!!!:D:D:D

[exscribbler]

Fan Blade: Now there's a thought worth pursuing.

Years ago when I was but a Baby Teacher, we welcomed to the school a group of students from a nearby College of Education, one of whom was more mature than the rest. He was attached to my class of 11 year-olds and proved to be an instant hit with the pupils. Not only did he express himself fluently and clearly but he was also obviously very capable of managing large groups of people and holding their attention. He had been with us for a week when he let it be known that in a previous life he had been a Major in 1LF. His obvious man-management skills impressed us all and the pupils particularly enjoyed the PE lesson when he led several platoon attacks on the old shed in the corner of the school field...:ok:

We were sad to see him go but I bet he was an asset to the school which employed him when he qualified.

I am of that certain age group most of whose teachers had served during WW2, had nothing to prove and were disciplined and dedicated to their jobs. In those days the teacher unions (even the NUT!) concerned themselves with educational matters; it was much the same when I joined. Was it really better then or is my memory dimmed by age?:confused:

Cue more posts about the days when we had an Air Force, Navy, etc., etc.:E

[Krystal n chips]

Be interesting to see / hear the N.U.T's reaction to this little gem then ....


http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,2269175,00.html


As for the "reading age of 11" comment, well whose responsibility would it be to ensure this should not be the case I wonder ?.....answers, on a recycled postcard to........that said, the issue of poor numeracy and literacy is not exclusive to recruitment for the Armed Forces....it's a well established lament across all sectors and it's now common practice I understand for many Universities to include modules that are designed to, er, educate students in the basics of Maths and English.

[LFFC]

It looks like someone has been reading PPRUNE and making policy again!

"Failing schools set to be saved by RAF heros" - Sunday Express 27 Apr 2008.

RAF heros are to be encouraged to become teachers after leaving the Armed Forces to help turn round our failing classrooms.
.
.
As an added bonus, the tough servicemen will instill discipline and respect in schools.

Military chiefs hope that former soldiers and sailers will also join in the scheme, called Transition to Teaching, which will allow ex-servicemen to use their skills to help shape the next generation.


Remember, you heard it here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4002647&postcount=14) first! Ah - the power of PPRUNE!