Ryanair passenger charter - more lies!

[TotalBeginner]

I was just browsing the Ryanair website this evening and came across this statement in their passenger charter:

Ryanair is the only airline in Europe that does not overbook its flights; therefore Ryanair has eliminated the possibility of passengers being denied boarding as a result of overbooking. However if for technical or immigration reasons, it becomes necessary to accommodate passengers on another flight, Ryanair will seek to prioritize the needs and minimise the delay of those passengers effected and provide compensation in line with Regulation EU261/2004.

What an utter load of b******s!

As an ex FR employee, I can categorically state that they certainly do overbook! Up to 5% of the capacity, which means that the booked figure can be as high as 200. (based on the 737-800 configured for 189Y)

The staff are told to advise passengers who are denied boarding that either "a row of seats are unserviceable" or "we have to transport deportees" (which I guess is in keeping with the above statement). How do they get away with publishing this trash???

[superjet777]

Ive got a dirty word and it begins with 'M'....... Media. Im sure they'd love it.

[The SSK]

Funny but I had heard exactly the same thing, including the 'deportees' excuse.

According to one set of industry norms, Ryanair would be stupid not to overbook, if you have paid tuppence for your flight it's no big deal if you don't turn up.

I would love to know what their no-show rate is.

[TotalBeginner]

Don't get me wrong, I don't have any issues with their policies, and if they want to overbook, why not? Most of the other low-cos do! But to actually advertise that you're one of the only European carriers that don't overbook, when this is a blatant lie, is pretty poor!

I would love to know what their no-show rate is.

Very high, the average is certainly in excess of 5%. Even when the flight is overbooked, they often manage to accept 5 or 6 standbys.

But, there will be the rare occasion when the majority of passengers turn up, and inevitably, some are denied carriage. To then lie about the reason, so that they can claim to be something that they aren't, is poor! :(

[kingdee]

as an Iata Ticketing Agent serving many Airlines they are alowed to overbook by 10% .So e.g 189 seater 19 overbooked very rare they all turn up .:ok:

[powerstall]

Overbooking is an essential technique, particularly in the hospitality & tourism industries. Overbooking levels are not set by chance but are determined by a detailed analysis of what has happened in the past and a prediction of what is likely to happen in the future. Predicted no-shows, cancellations, denials all form part of a complex calculation carried out in advance. In this way the risk of disappointing a customer who has booked in advance is minimised. Overbooking policy is a means of managing the uncertainty of arrivals. The key to a successful overbooking policy is to obtain accurate no-show and cancellation information and develop overbooking levels that will maintain an acceptable level of service (Kimes & Chase 1998).

Maybe Ryanair is good with their math, but i may be wrong... :ugh:

[Final 3 Greens]

come on guys

The OP is not criticising the alleged overbooking practice, but rather the inconsistency between the published policy and the alleged reality.

If the allegation is true, then it is a dishonest business practice.

[TotalBeginner]

Maybe Ryanair is good with their math, but i may be wrong...

The definition of "overbooked":

To take reservations beyond the capacity for accommodation

If Ryanair are booking to anything beyond 189 (which they certainly are) then they are considered to be overselling/overbooking. Even if the statistics show that having to deny carriage is likely to be rare, it is still being practiced!

As I said before, my issue is not with the fact that they are overselling (they'd be mad not too). My gripe, is that they have the gall to stick up an advert which is a blatant lie ( with a clause which says "if the flight is overbooked it's because we're transporting deportees or there is a technical problem with some seats")!

[PAXboy]

Very interesting information TotalBeginner. If you wish to take action, then it is off to your local Trading Standards Office (part of the local Council) to start the ball rolling. The problems of doing that, you will already know.

You will have to spend time and money and, if you use FR regularly for your leisure travel, face the risk that they will decline to carry you (as they are entitled to do and not tell you why). But, crucially, you have to be able to prove that they overbook. That would mean providing documentary evidence.

There are other avenues available to you but only the legal one will have any effect. Don't tell the media to gain publicity as that will almost certainly be challenged by the company and they might try and take you to court. FR will be betting that the effort and money are more than you are prepared to give. Again, thanks for letting us know.

[jimworcs]

You only have to read this forum and Skytrax for it to be blindingly obvious that Ryanair have a whole raft of dubious practices, not least of which is the determination to never have to refund a penny no matter what the circumstances are. What we need are a series of ex Ryanair employee's going to Tonight or Panorama with evidence of a systematic attempt to defraud or mislead passengers. Until they are exposed as doing this deliberately, rather than the compelling, but lacking in evidence, anecdotal stories nothing will get changed. In the US I am pretty sure there would have been a class action suit by now, particularly in the telephone scam of not allowing anyone to contact them and charging a fortune for their phone lines. Really we need legislation making it illegal for customers to have to pay a company to seek redress for complaints or grievances. It is outrageous for any company to charge customers for the priviledge of fixing problems (take note British Gas, Sky, Ryanair and other companies of dis-repute).

On the more general point about overbooking, there may be a justification for full service airlines overbooking. There is absolutely no excuse for low cost airlines doing it. A full service airline sells tickets which are fully refundable and changeable, which means that they are not able to tell which customers will show up or not as these tickets are effectively like bus tickets, allowing the passenger to take any flight they like. Therefore, it is perfectly legitimate to use past experience to manage loads and estimate total usage. These airlines also take care of the passenger who is then denied boarding for this reason.

Low cost airlines only allow you to travel on the actual flight itself, and you lose all the fare if you don't show up. Therefore, the seat has actually been sold, and it is tantamount to fraud to sell the seat again. There is no possibility that you could get on the flight, and they are in effect selling something they don't have. It would be fine to sell off "no shows" on a standby basis (similar to a theatre which sells "no show" seats after the curtain goes up); but it is totally wrong to book people for seats which don't exist, particularly as Ryanair is hostile, unco-operative and nasty to the customers who are affected. Sooner or later Ryanair will pay for this attitude to it;s customers, and it won't be long. I know many people who would rather pay £20 per sector more to go with Aer Lingus, Easyjet or BA than be abused by semi-literate morons.

[heidelberg]

jimworcs says 'It is outrageous for any company to charge customers for the priviledge of fixing problems (take note British Gas, Sky, Ryanair and other companies of dis-repute)'.
Include Aer Lingus in the above statement. Their Irish '0818' number is a premium one.
In America they use a '1800' freefone number. Why?
Also, in every European country except Sweden & Ireland, it is possible to contact them by email!
Why has AL decided not to give the same email facility to its Swedish and Irish customers?
If only AL realised it they could get a lot more customers back from the likes of the Ryanair's of the LCC world if they were more user friendly.
I think the time has come when many of us are prepared to pay a little extra for a more 'human' service and this includes AL providing all of its customers with a '1800' number for contact plus email.
Come on Aer Lingus - you can do it.

[Capot]

I've read the thread, and if anyone mentioned that the so-called "taxes" are not returned if you cancel or do not turn up, I missed it.

So the policy of overbooking, which of course FR has, is usually quite lucrative.

The only one of the taxes which is not just another charge by Ryanair (or any carrier) for the service(s) provided is the Government tax. This is a small proportion of the total amount added to an apparently cheap fare as "taxes".

The remainder are the airport's charges to the airline, not the passenger, for its services, and various additional charges dreamed up by increasingly imaginative locos. (Charges for:- Making a booking, Making the payment for it, Checking Baggage, Putting fuel into the Aircraft ("Surcharge"), Breathing etc etc).

Of these, it is illegal not to return to a passenger the Government Tax that is collected with the ticket price, in the event of cancellation or "no show". This money does not belong to the airline which collects it. It belongs either to the Government or to the passenger , and refusing to repay it amounts to theft.

[jimworcs]

The airlines get around this by charging a ridiculously exhorbitant "fee" for refunding the amount, which exceeds the actual tax. This is similar to the banks who charged outrageous fees and who are now faced with paying back millions. Unfortunately, there is little regulation and an incredibly ineffective regulator, so the chances of anything being done about this rip off are negligable.

[Based]

Well maybe their statement should be revised to say 'generally' they don't overbook flights! I believe there are very few situations in which they do, certainly an extreme minority in terms of total flights.

And of the few situations where they do do it, you would be very very unluckly to actually be denied boarding, even at that you'll be put on another flight on the exact same route on the same day. Hardly that unreasonable in the overall scheme of things, and certainly not something I'd be getting too worked up about!

[TotalBeginner]

I believe there are very few situations in which they do, certainly an extreme minority in terms of total flights.

I'm afraid you believe wrong!

I agree that there are few occasions when it is necessary to deny boarding, but the majority of Ryanair's flights have a sale lid that is set in excess of the aircraft's capacity! If a flight isn't overbooked, it is purely due to the fact that these oversale fares have not been purchased. As somebody else has mentioned, Ryanair's yields department are not stupid and will endeavour to make good use of their high no-show rate.

Again, I'm not criticising Ryanair for overbooking, they just need to stop using this underhanded method of advertising!

[jimworcs]

And of the few situations where they do do it, you would be very very unluckly to actually be denied boarding, even at that you'll be put on another flight on the exact same route on the same day. Hardly that unreasonable in the overall scheme of things, and certainly not something I'd be getting too worked up about!

Presumably you apply the same standards to other situations. You get much sought after tickets to a Madonna concert, when you get there you find that your seats have been sold twice, and sadly, normally 10% of people who book concert tickets don't turn up, but on this occassion that didn't happen. So here is a refund of the ticket price. I am quite impressed that you would shrug your shoulders and say oh well, hardly anything to get worked up about is it. C'est la vie. Bollocks.

[PAXboy]

heidelbergInclude Aer Lingus in the above statement. Their Irish '0818' number is a premium one. In America they use a '1800' freefone number. Why?Because they can get away with it! Countless large companies in the UK (and, it seems, Eire) changed to premium rates and everyone dialled them. One reason is because the telephone numbering scheme in the UK is a dogs dinner and allows misunderstanding. You may with to look at, and contribute to: www.saynoto0870.com (http://www.pprune.org/forums/www.saynoto0870.com)

Also, in every European country except Sweden & Ireland, it is possible to contact them by email! Why has AL decided not to give the same email facility to its Swedish and Irish customers?Because they have more customers there and the volume of emails will overload the numbers of staff that have been reduced to minimum to save money? Or am I just too cynical for my socks?

If only AL realised it they could get a lot more customers back from the likes of the Ryanair's of the LCC world if they were more user friendly. I think the time has come when many of us are prepared to pay a little extra for a more 'human' service and this includes AL providing all of its customers with a '1800' number for contact plus email.Unfortuantely, all too many want to pay as little as possible and everyone is chasing FR down the slide.

[10secondsurvey]

Would it be fair to make the observation;

'you have to be pretty stupid to believe anything Ryanair say' ??

[Based]

I'm afraid you believe wrong!

I don't believe I do! What I'm saying is a very very small number of flights in proportion to the overall total are ever actually overbooked, whether the capability to do so is there or otherwise.

Presumably you apply the same standards to other situations. You get much sought after tickets to a Madonna concert, when you get there you find that your seats have been sold twice, and sadly, normally 10% of people who book concert tickets don't turn up, but on this occassion that didn't happen. So here is a refund of the ticket price. I am quite impressed that you would shrug your shoulders and say oh well, hardly anything to get worked up about is it. C'est la vie. Bollocks.

You would presume wrong unless we're talking specifically Madonna tickets in which case you would be right. Besides seats aren't over sold at concerts because they can't offer you a seat at another concert at the same venue by the same artist later that day. If they could, they probably would and it would be quite logical to do so.

Anyway the main point I suppose I'm making overall is that a chronic problem of overselling seats at Ryanair does not exist and you'd be very very unlucky to ever fall victim to it. Then even if you are that poor unfortunate sod, you'll still be travelling at some point that day, you'll never be left stranded at some remote airport overnight or anything. So sorry but I still won't be getting worked up about it anytime soon.

[TotalBeginner]

you'll never be left stranded at some remote airport overnight or anything. So sorry but I still won't be getting worked up about it anytime soon.

What if it happens at an airport where there is only one flight per day or, it's the last flight of the day? Ryanair won't re-accommodate you on another carrier, the word FIM doesn't exist in their vocabulary! :ugh:

[jimworcs]

Ryanair have lowered your expectations to such an extent (or you work for them and have bought their nonsense hook, line and sinker), that you genuinely seem to believe that it is fine to oversell because you can hop on one later. As said above, it is rubbish, not all flight routes have more than one flight a day. It is just a ridiculous argument and totally one-sided. If the passenger, on the other hand, turned up late and said oh, I thought this was like a train and I could just hop on one later, do you think Ryanair would give them a sympathetic hearing? MOL has set up a company which treats it's customers with contempt and hostility. The model worked as long as he was able to open up new point to point routes very cheaply with no competition. Competitors are nipping at his heals, the economy is not looking so good and MOL has committed Ryanair to massive capacity increases which are coming regardless of demand. Meanwhile, EZ are able to get more per seat and compete on a low cost model which offers at least a basic level of customer service. MOL will come unstuck.. and Ryanair will be having problems within 18 months. MOL will retire with his millions, and the new broom will push up prices and emphasise customer service and acknowledge they had gone too far. I challenge you to re-read this post in 18 months time and see how much has come true.

[Based]

What if it happens at an airport where there is only one flight per day or, it's the last flight of the day?

As said above, it is rubbish, not all flight routes have more than one flight a day. It is just a ridiculous argument and totally one-sided.

Lads, do I have to spell it out for you, it doesn't happen in these situations - there's no side taking involved here. I mean are you actually categorically stating you know of a situation where it has?

you genuinely seem to believe that it is fine to oversell because you can hop on one later.

Yes I do, but then so does the entire aviation world! The best part about all this is that it's a very rare event with Ryanair (and essentially all low cost short haul airlines for that matter) and much more common with just about every long haul carrier for example.

Given your perceived bitterness towards the minute possibility of it happening with Ryanair jimworcs, I'm assuming the likes of long haul air travel, where you often have no other option but to wait for the same flight the next day, is something you stay well clear off given the emotional disturbance it could cause.

Going back to initial reason for this thread, it's not that I'm defending what is stated in the passenger charter and saying it's absolutely true, I'm just saying that overbooking is a very rare event with Ryanair and probably one of the last things you should be getting worked up about. Let's put it this way, there's probably more likelihood of you getting a refund for an unused flight than you ever experiencing overbooking!!

[jimworcs]

You keep comparing overselling in a low cost with what goes on in the long haul legacy carriers. It is not comparable. Long haul legacy carriers sell tickets which allow the passenger to turn up and get on any flight with a seat available. This class of ticket means that the carrier can expect a number of guaranteed no shows, and there is reciprocal rights. The passenger can "no show" and still get on a later flight, and the carrier can "over sell" based on an analysis of flight usage. In addition, these tickets are interchangeable with other carriers providing the passenger considerably more options. Low cost carriers who over sell seats are effectively committing fraud. They are selling seats that are simply not available, and the thread started with a Ryanair ex employee whistleblowing to that effect and exposing the fact that Ryanair are liars. You can continue to defend the practice until the cows come home, but you can be sure of one thing.. you are defending the indefensible.

[Based]

You keep comparing overselling in a low cost with what goes on in the long haul legacy carriers.

My last post was the first time I did so.

Long haul legacy carriers sell tickets which allow the passenger to turn up and get on any flight with a seat available.

Long haul legacy carriers sell some tickets which allow the passenger to turn up and get on any flight with a seat available. They also sell quite a few tickets that don't yet they are also still perfectly entitled to deny these passengers boarding due to overbooking. How does this fit into your somewhat flawed logic?

[slip and turn]

Yes Based, you seem to be flying in the face of reason. You seem also to be making a point that Ryanair hasn't stranded passengers, yet they courted notoriety both before EU Regulation 261/2004 regarding cancellation and delay compensation, and after it became effective 17 February 2005.

Not that I have heard of it being as a result of overbooking of course, but I think some of the strandings have resulted in 48 hour delays for planeloads of people even on routes with 2 or more flights per day.

There is also the nonsense of failing to give customers any incentive whatsoever to notify the airline when a ticket is no longer required. And the further nonsense of splashing so many 1p flights around that many customers now seem to use them as a hedge against delays on their original bookings, or indeed simply to give themselves the marvellous almost zero cost flexibility of turning up to any one of a number of flights but totally discarding the rest!

I have also often wondered if their "Web Check'nGo" boarding card printout facility enables someone to enter the departure lounge with a pocketful of inkjeted boarding cards (any of today's date seems to get you through security - not even your passport is checked at Stansted until boarding).

Once through, I imagine you could give those you don't fancy using to anyone you meet so they could chance their arm on a rushed boarding to anywhere! That's what it looks like - could be wrong of course.

This seems to be the opposite extreme to the T5 Fingerprint idea, with one extreme sponsored by Ryanair, and the other by BA!

Mind you, at least the simple model seems to get more people AND their baggage where they want to go at the time they want to be there :p, notwithstanding that one group must surely contain more illegals? :suspect:

But with the chaos reigning at T5 tonight I imagine if anyone was mad enough still to be there, they could talk their way into any queue they liked...:ugh:

The mind boggles.

[jimworcs]

My flawed logic is that if a carrier sells 20% of its tickets on a fully exchangeable, fully refundable basis and on past experience 5% of passengers on the flight are "no shows", they are entitled to oversell on that basis, providing they are then prepared to take care of any customers who are inconvenienced. By "take care" of them I mean, book them onto another route, even with another carrier if necessary, offer vouchers or refund for the inconvience and a hotel if an overnight or extended stay is needed. I had this situation arise in Hong Kong with BA. BA booked me onto Virgin to get me home the same day, paid £200 compensation and I got to London 40 minutes later than originally scheduled. Ryanair never do these things, and if the Ryanair whisteblower who started this thread is to be believed, they concoct fake stories to try avoid any responsibility for their actions. Certainly, on the two occassions that Ryanair stranded me, it was impossible for them to "take care" of the passengers because they had absolutely no representatives on the ground who had any clue what was happening. On one occassion in Milan, the one person at the desk, pulled down the shutters at midnight in Milan Bergamo and started to leave. When stranded passengers demanded she stay and help the passengers who were the victim of the cancellation, she called the police and left the building under their escort. It is on this flawed logic that I conclude that legacy carriers who behave as I have just described can oversell, whereas low costs cannot.

While we are at it, and in a spirit of openness, can you tell us whether you work for Ryanair or have any association with the company? I would also recommend that you read the threads in Skytrax to read stories of people who have flown Ryanair, and are clearly making up stories of being stranded and lied to by the company. What is remarkable about these obviously made up horror stories is their consistency... and there are so many more of them than any other carrier. I wonder why?

[Based]

My flawed logic is that if a carrier sells 20% of its tickets on a fully exchangeable, fully refundable basis and on past experience 5% of passengers on the flight are "no shows", they are entitled to oversell on that basis, providing they are then prepared to take care of any customers who are inconvenienced.

At least we're making some progress in your acceptance that it's flawed logic. Lets be clear here, Ryanair are legally entitled to oversell flights if they so wish. Your earlier suggestion of fraud is quite amusing. You're statement above is simply your opinion on how the aviation world should operate, not the current reality.

When stranded passengers demanded she stay and help the passengers who were the victim of the cancellation, she called the police and left the building under their escort..

You're continually shifting the terms of reference here. We're talking specifically about overselling seats in this thread and whether Ryanair do so or not - cancellations is a completely separate issue which has been discussed to death on other threads.

It is on this flawed logic that I conclude that legacy carriers who behave as I have just described can oversell, whereas low costs cannot.


Again your personal opinion, not the legal reality.

While we are at it, and in a spirit of openness, can you tell us whether you work for Ryanair or have any association with the company?

I don’t believe it’s a relevant question but in your spirit of openness, no, I do not work for Ryanair. I suppose my association is using them fairly regularly as a passenger taking advantage of only their genuinely low cost fares while tending to use other airlines when fares are similar or where I need a flexible ticket.

Again can we be clear, I'm not globally defending Ryanair here - we're talking specifically about the issue of overselling seats. They don’t generally and as I’ve stated already - there's probably more likelihood of you getting a refund for an unused flight than you ever experiencing overbooking so it’s one thing about Ryanair that you shouldn’t bother getting worked up about.

I would also recommend that you read the threads in Skytrax to read stories of people who have flown Ryanair, and are clearly making up stories of being stranded and lied to by the company.

I’ll gladly read any relevant threads in Skytrax relating to overselling but it’s hard to find any. I know that many passengers (still a very small number in the context of total passengers carried) have been left facing ridiculously long waits to get to their destination but that's the risk you run with low cost air travel I guess - and more importantly has generally nothing to do with overselling! I assume the argument that fares aren't always cheap with low cost carriers will enter your mind while reading this but I'm afraid I don't have any real sympathy for passengers willing to pay Ryanair anything but low fare prices!

Overall my impression in your last post is that you’re expecting Ryanair to provide the same standard of customer service as other ‘full fare’ airlines. I don’t but that doesn’t mean I agree with all their policies either – their overbooking practices however are perfectly reasonable as far as I’m concerned and I've yet to be provided with any reason why I should think otherwise. Ryanair certainly isn’t above criticism but don’t criticise problems that aren’t there! I’ll leave you to have the last word.

[TotalBeginner]

Ryanair are legally entitled to oversell flights if they so wish.

This thread wasn't to dispute their legal right to oversell. It was to discuss the fact that they are making false advertising statements.

in your spirit of openness, no, I do not work for Ryanair. I suppose my association is using them fairly regularly as a passenger

we're talking specifically about the issue of overselling seats. They don’t generally

If you're not an FR employee, you have absolutely no idea to what degree overselling is practiced. Granted, the likelyhood of being denied boarding by Ryanair is low. However, overselling is commonly practiced and is not reserved to a "small minority" of flights as you claim!

[rothin]

I would also recommend that you read the threads in SkytraxI'm not sure I'd trust anything on Skytrax. They censor or edit contributions and have still not published any complaints about T5 after 4 days of BA/BAA chaos.
I think Skytrax is a viral advertising campaign with quite transparent objectives.

[al446]

Thank you total beginner for getting back to the thread subject, whether FR is falsely advertising (aka lying through their teeth) or not. I get the impression they are. But could be wrong (in case sue, grabbit & runne are reading)