Service (RAF) protocol question

[Yozzer]

In a fate worse than death, my son is now an Air Cadet. He asked me the following question and I am not sure of the correct reply, and therefore request that an ISS graduate set me (and my son) right.

OC v CO

When and why did CO 617 Sqn for example become OC 617 Sqn?

Has it simply evolved over the years or is there a logical explanation. Minor stuff I know, but I also feel that it was a question from my son worthy of a correct answer.

[Climebear]

I would hazard a guess that the title is tied to the individual who has dispilinary powers of Commanding Officer. Within the RAF this is generally held at Stn Cdr level not (as is the case in the Army) at wg cdr level (ironically wg cdrs tend to have no disciplinary powers under the AFA1955 as senior subordinate cdrs tend to be sqn ldrs and junior subordinate cdrs are junior offrs).

So the Stn Cdr is generally the CO (although entitled OC RAF ...) whereas unit (Wg and Fg Sqn) and sub-unit (sqn an flt) cdrs are generally OCs.

I hope it helps; it's the best I could come up with in a desert.

[BluntM8]

As I understand it, CO is short for Commissioned Officer. Therefore anyone who holds the Queen's Commission is a CO. It follows that you can also be a Non-Commissioned Officer, or NCO.

OC is short for Officer Commanding - for example Wg Cdr Large-Trousers might be the Officer Commanding 666 Sqn, in which case he would be OC 666 Sqn.

I don't think the RAF has ever used the abreviation CO to mean Commanding Officer, so I would imagine that OC 617 Sqn has always been known as such!

Hope that helps,

Blunty

[Top Bunk Tester]

OMG BluntM8 :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Having served twenty plus years groundcrew/aircrew I cannot believe what I just read in your post. If you are, as your profile suggests, a WSO, please tel me that you are a DE who still looks at his watch to see how long he has been in. This is not a dig at you but something must be going wrong in the training system.

CO Commanding Officer, universally known as the big cheese with four rings, The Station Commander.

OC Officer Commanding, can be anything from Sqn Boss to Section Boss

i/c Normally used in O i/c or SNCO i/c means in charge of and can relate to anything from being responsible for the Sqn mascot to the Station Bicycle Store

[True Blue Jack]

CO does indeed stand for Commanding Officer, not Commissioned Officer. Why we do it differently than the Army I am not sure but I suspect that in our early days, while trying to set ourselves apart from the RFC and RNAS somebody wrote a letter and had a grammar attack which has stuck.

"Officer Commanding 617 Sqn" is better English than "Commanding Officer 617 Sqn" and while working at an Army-led unit I steadfastly refused to change my signature block; much to the annoyance of my green friends.

Colloquially, we refer to the Stn Cdr as the CO but his correct title is most often "Officer Commanding RAF Wherever". Of course, that is changing as Stn Cdrs are re-badged "Force Commanders" so I think the Army will eventually have the last laugh.

Oh, and TBT: The correct abbreviation for Officer In Charge is "OIC", not "O i/c". Well if you're going to be pedantic . . . .

[Top Bunk Tester]

TBJ

Point taken and you are correct OIC and NCO i/c

[Hoobie Schnaps]

There is a legal difference between the two that is set out in QRs. A CO is generally in command of an independant unit and can be virtually any commisioned rank. For instance, in the Falklands CO 905 EAW is a Commanding Officer rather than an Officer Commanding and has greater powers of summary punishment etc than someone in an OC position.

Also, a CO gets his/her own penant which will vary in design depending on the rank of the CO (the lowest I have seen is a Flt Lt CO).

A good example would be in the old days on a unit that had UAS's, the CO of the UAS (as a Sqn Ldr) had more powers of summary punishment etc than the OC of, say, Supply Sqn. The UAS CO answered to his HQ directly (with admin support from the Stn) whereas the OC Supply answered through the Stn Chain of Command. The CO also had his own penant (which is obviously very important):).

Cheers


HS

[BluntM8]

TBT, fair one. I stand corrected!

Although I do - just - use a calender. But only under adult supervision! :E

[True Blue Jack]

Point taken and you are correct OIC and NCO i/c

At the risk of making enemies on my first day let out of e-goat, it's "NCO IC". Sorry, I have my coat on and have called a taxi. :O

[Top Bunk Tester]

No enemies, well maybe the taxman.

Will agree to differ over NCO i/c and NCO IC, have seen both written, maybe an adminer could clarify, if the're not all too busy fielding queries/complaints about JPA.:mad:

[True Blue Jack]

I am an adminer and my mother used to read JSP 101 to me at bedtimes. :ok:

I have seen "O i/c" and "NCO i/c" on many occasions, often by people who should know better. Another favourite is "COP", as in "Close Of Play" when any RAF Regt Gunner will tell you - correctly - COP is a "Close Observation Platoon".

When you get right down to it, whatever works is fine.

[Top Bunk Tester]

In that case, I stand humbled

[Irish Tempest]

I was fortunate to get a tour around the Maze Long Kesh Prison Facility nr Belfast before it was torn down... well the majority of it anyhow.

The tour guide said one of the things that always baffled the Prison Warders was why the IRA prisoners had OC's of the H Block Wings and the UVF/LVF etc Prisoners had CO's.... Maybe you could ask Martin McGuinness et al their rationale... Maybe some of that time spent in Cells was spent reading QR's ?

IT

[forget]

Remember the Navy guy who declared himself Electrical, Instruments & Engineering Installations Officer – so he could answer the telephone -

“E I E I O“.

[Wholigan]

Well Mr Yozzer sir, I hesitate to even ask this question, but do you have (from the above bunch of posts) even the slightest idea what to tell your son???


;):E

[effortless]

During my spell with a load of brown jobs in NI this question came up. The senior officer ( 2 bat Coldstreams) reckoned that the bloke what gave the orders was the commanding officer but the titular head of your unit, wherever he may be, was the officer commanding, usually fairly high up the food chain. So a sub. telling the RSM to get you fell in was your commanding officer but the gold braid sitting in the office was the officer commanding.

[serf]

And I thought you called each other 'mate'