helicopter reported down in Ireland

[noblades]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0320/meath.html

hope nothing serious

NB

[electric69]

Irish Helicopters A109.

Still havent heard any more news on the condition of the pilot.

[thewaffler]

I believe it is an A109e but Irish Helicopters dont operate that type.

Best wishes to the pilot and his family.

[eurocopter beans]

i heard it was EI-SBM

[206Fan]

Ballymore management services in dublin own SBM..

http://flyinginireland.com/eireg.php?Registration=EI-SBM&Submit=Submit

Best wishes to the pilot and his family..

[noblades]

Heavy landing just east of Dunshaughlin in bogland.
One person (P1) on board.
Airlifted to hospital with suspected spinal/compression injuries.

Aircraft tipped overe on it's side just 30 yds from powerlines.
Air Accident Unit on the scene

Registration EI-SBM

Date of Registration 04/05/2004

Owner Ballymore Management Services Ltd.

Address Fonthill House, Old Lucan Road, Palmerstown, Dublin 20

Manufacturer Agusta

Aircraft Type 109E

Serial Number 11174

Year of Manufacture 2004

Engine Manufacturer Pratt and Whitney

Engine Type PW 206 C

Number of Engines 2

Status Current



Please be careful about speculating at this point. Let Air accident provide the details.

Would say lucky escape but know pilot to be very capable guy. so would like to think experience more responsible than luck.

Speedy recovery J.

NB

[Robino]

Agree 100%, one of the best corporate pilots in Ireland and from my reading it was experience that saved his life.

Get well soon J

[helimutt]

.....be careful about speculating? This is a rumour network and it's what everyone here does. For the quote above to report 'near powerlines' seems weird. No schools mentioned. etc etc etc.


Quite agree. Lets wait and see what the cause was.


Robino, you say from your reading it was his experience that saved his life. Have you got any other news that isnt posted here?

[Koalainfoplease]

Ballymore have not owned this aircraft for some time.
It is owned by Kildare Aviation and managed by Premier at Weston.

[maxvne]

I wish the pilot a speedy recovery, any weather problems in Dublin today??

[Bladecrack]

hope it wasn't his own fault it happened. Because that would make him not quite one of the best corporate pilots in Ireland.

Helimutt,

Not sure why you would make such an inconsiderate statement? :confused:
I too know the pilot involved and have flown with him before. I would agree with Robino and No Blades, he is very capable and experienced pilot, and a total professional. He also happens to be a thoroughly decent bloke. From the sketchy details so far its very unlikely to be 'his own fault'

Best wishes to him and his family, and lets hope he makes a speedy recovery.

BC.

[206Fan]

Weather was pretty nasty here today after lunch time onwards, was very windy, clouds were pretty low all day..

Wish the pilot a speedy recovery:)

[bikebastard]

i was in a r44 just outside of dublin today at 11am and was pretty bumpy!

[enginear]

nothing to do with the power lines. understand that it was beyond his control cant say much more for now. wish him a full and quick recovery

[eurocopter beans]

was the pilot ex Irish Air Corps??

[enginear]

no, and its not who you think it is

[Chickenhawk1]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/muineach/sets/72157604175148970/

[helimutt]

not inconsiderate at all. If it was a/c failure, well done to him for the way it turned out. Losing a friend in a 109, this always hits home.


I'll sit patiently to wait for the report.

[FletchTheBone]

Just to let all concerned know I have spoke to the pilot this evening involved in the incident. At this point I am unsure of what information is allowed to be disclosed suffice it to say that it was an aircraft malfunction and the pilot did an incredible job of dealing with the emergency and landing it away from a populated area. The pilot has back injuries associated with autorotation but is holding up well and the IAAIU are investigating. Yes the aircraft is owned now by Kildare Aviation not Ballymore

[maxvne]

Well done to the pilot looking at the pictures he did a good job, is the tail rotor gone or maybe from the impact but it does look like he may have had a TR failure and also by the position the A/C ended up in only my humble opinion.

[Helipolarbear]

The pilot concerned is, as previously stated, a well known and highly professional individual. He is also a good friend of many other pilots. Thank God he has survived such a catastrophic event. I'm sure his knowledge and experiance, as well as his aviator attitude stood him well. The AAIU, will I'm sure, do their usual 'good job' and we'll all be much the wiser upon receipt of their investigations. Wishing the pilot and his family all the best. Well done:ok:

[Robino]

I echo your statement HP and very well said, :D:D i wish him a speedy recovery.

[Hedski]

I agree with Helimutt, it's not inconsiderate to say what he did, this is of course a rumour forum and his statement may have been misinterpreted due to emotion. The pilot is experienced in the corporate flying world and probably flies pretty much nothing other than 109's nowadays so I'm sure that had some involvement in his escape from what appears to have been a close one.
All the best, get well soon,
H

Fletch, check your PM's.

[RavenII]

One of the guys in Weston told me it was a tailrotor failure, don't know if it's true.........

[orange1800]

Just a short note to say get well soon J, all the staff here at Weston wish you a speedy recovery. :ok:

You are a true gentleman of the air, and a thorough professional, we look forward to your return to full health and of course flying...:D

EIWTZTZX

[VeeAny]

As a fellow power pilot I wish you a speedy recovery.

And if it was a TR failure you have my respect, its not the easiest aircraft to deal with it in, especially alone.

Get well soon


Gary S.

[funfinn2000]

Yeah The man is a gent and a role model for some of us under 30 ihopers. All the best for the recovery.


Also I'd like to say far play to the Emergency services for his safe extraction to hospital. I wouldnt fancy being in an Ambulance in traffic. Not often we have an Air Evac here, Excellent stuff

[heliski22]

I'm sure the snippets we're hearing now will be borne out by the findings of the AAIU - the man did a great job, best wishes for a speedy recovery to full health.

[Bladecrack]

I agree with Helimutt, it's not inconsiderate to say what he did, this is of course a rumour forum and his statement may have been misinterpreted due to emotion.

Nothing to do with emotion, more to do with respect for a fellow professional pilot. So if you had just survived a potentially fatal accident and were in hospital with serious injuries, and the best I could come up with was 'well you're not much of a pilot if it was your own fault' or words to that effect, what would you think? :yuk:

I think some people on here need to engage their brain before opening their mouth. Accidents like this can happen to the best of us, it's how you deal with it when happens to you that matters.

BC

[helibaron]

I hope this is not another scissor link problem, as happened some years ago. Despite the design not conforming to UK certification requirements the scissor link can still be installed incorrectly. The CAA never issued any AD's concerning this, it appeared to be a complete cover up by all agencies concerned. :ugh:

[Bearcat]

yikes...that heli came out of of major maint check in the uk recently......... I hope the pilot makes a speedy recovery.....a respected pro. He's a lucky guy as the impact photos dont look pretty.

[ShyTorque]

The CAA never issued any AD's concerning this, it appeared to be a complete cover up by all agencies concerned.

No, I don't think it's a cover up. I became aware of the problem some years ago, when I wasn't even flying the type. When I went to fly the 109 it was the first thing I asked the engineers about! You obviously haven't been made aware of:

Agusta BT 109EP-86
Agusta BT 109S -19

Issued by the factory. Both refer to mandatory action with regards to marking the scissor link components to aid correct re-installation.

[helimutt]

So if you had just survived a potentially fatal accident and were in hospital with serious injuries, and the best I could come up with was 'well you're not much of a pilot if it was your own fault' or words to that effect, what would you think?


Bladecrack, funnily enough I did just that. Not a crash in an aircraft, but in a previous job. All I got while I was lying in hospital for a few weeks was 'You can't be much of a manager if you had one of your staff stab you' WTF?!!!!

Probably must be true then I suppose, because that's how it felt at the time. Did it bother me when only I knew the truth? No, not at all. Couldn't give a toss about it to be honest.

If I ever pile in in a heli, I hope everyone on PPRuNe comes on here and discusses/dissects etc every and any possible scenario. You know why? Because it promotes discussion and it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Maybe just thicker skinned than some, and i'd be the first one to come on here and tell my side of it, in detail if requested, if I was able? :hmm:

ps, my post above edited out of respect.

[Bladecrack]

Helimutt,

Fair enough, I have no problems with people learning from discussion about accidents, and if it can help prevent another one thats even better.

Luckily on this occasion the pilot involved survived, and will hopefully share his experience someday when fully recovered.

BC

[helimutt]

I hope he makes a full recovery and maybe shares his experience with us so we can all learn. Especially the 109 drivers amongst us.

Don't know if you plan on attending any of the safety evenings arranged but they are ideal venues to discuss these sort of incidents without a public airing.


Cheers.

[DeBeere]

Discussing is definitely the way to go, it is a forum after all.

But, having known the pilot for a few years I have no doubt he did everything he could to bring the chopper down safely.

Get Well Soon J!

[FletchTheBone]

Just been speaking to J's wife who asked to pass their appreciation of all the kind sentiments - John was mooved to the Matar Hosp' today where upon further examination was found to have a break 2 cm from the lower part of the spine, this has to be operated on Sunday morning with metal plates/rods being inserted in order to have any chance of supporting him. The hosp is giving no guarantees about the outcome! His wife has asked anyone planning to visit if they would leave it until after mid-week at the earliest, I'll keep you advised as I know more. As I'm sure you'll all agree our thoughts and prayers are with J and his family at this time.

[ShyTorque]

Yes, good luck with his op; I hope he makes a speedy and full recovery.

[206Fan]

As I'm sure you'll all agree our thoughts and prayers are with J and his family at this time.Indeed fletch, thoughts and prayers are with john and his family at this time, hope he makes a speedy and full recovery and is back up doing what he does best..

Mate of mine informed me earlier he heard on the local news another heli came down somewere round galway city today, there was no more details about the crash.. Anybody hear anything on this?

[Curtis E Carr]

Get well soon, John. We need some more of your craic!

[sox6]

http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/archive/00175/chopper_175878t.jpg

[It Gets Worse]

Thanks to Fletch for keeping us all posted.

John is indeed a very nice chap and highly respected by all that know him.

It is very difficult for a patient and family to begin adjusting to the situation until it stabilises.

Hopefully no more injuries to be discovered and the very best of luck to John with his operation and the results achieved.

His previous attention to strength and fitness will pay dividends now I would imagine.

My thoughts are with J and family.

Regards,

It gets worse

[Hedski]

Bladecrack,
I think you should note that Helimutt is half of the driving force behind helicoptersafety.org and would not in my opinion make comments in a manner which you accused him of, he is still a Geordie though:}. He has since expained this himself anyway.
The post incident discussion element needs to be promoted on this forum in my opinion as some of us aren't in an easy position to attend the safety evenings at the moment, therefore I welcome further comments, constructive of course, as this is certainly an event I would like to learn more about.
H

[DeBeere]

Johns surgery has been postponed until tomorrow.
A specialist will be carrying out a new micro surgery on him,
which will mean a much quicker recovery process.

Thoughts and prayers are with J and his family.

[Bearcat]

specialist coming in from uk....besta luck mate.

[Lunar]

I'd just like to add my best wishes to John and his family. As another 109 pilot I know how little time he had to make the decisions he did.

Well done and get well soon,

Regards,

Lunar

[ericferret]

HeliBaron, Shytorque.

The Italian authorities issued AD 2000-371 which I believe covers the rotating scissors issue. Mandatory for UK registered aircraft. No reason for the CAA to issue an AD.

Manufacturers mandatory bulletins are only mandatory if backed by an AD!!!!!!!!!
It is the operators choice as to what action they take in respect of them.
If they choose to ignore them they might have to explain their decision in court at a later date.

[ShyTorque]

Manufacturers mandatory bulletins are only mandatory if backed by an AD!!!!!!!!!

But it would be difficult to ignore the word MANDATORY in bright red, inch high, letters on the BTs sent by the manufacturer to owners and operators.

Never mind in court, try explaining why something marked thus wasn't done to the aircraft insurance company. I think the words NULL, and VOID, might feature in any conversation.

Different topic to whether something is a cover-up, or not, which was my point. Also, I presume, totally irrelevant to the subject here, just in case journos mis-read any intonation.

[DeBeere]

I dont think this will apply to this case.

Anyway, John had a very successful back operation today and is on the road to recovering!

Thank God.

[Bearcat]

thanks de beere for updates....great news....we were all worried.

[RavenII]

That's the only thing that is important! :ok:

[206Fan]

New pics uploaded of the aircraft removal from the crash site.. They arn't my photos..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/muineach/sets/72157604194261799/show/with/2350982784/

[helimutt]

before all of the armchair critics kick off, I see from the photos the tail rotor blades are still intact so wondered if this was probably because they had stopped spinning before impact?? I would have expected them to have broken off fairly sharply if they'd been spinning. Just wondering that's all.

[Thousand Island]

First of all, thank god J is making a full and speedy recovery. It has been no doubt a terrifying experience for him, his family and his colleagues and I hope he's able to get back in the air soon.

Had a look through the other photos of the recovery also Helimut, and I agree, the tail rotor must have not been rotating during the impact and roll-over. I also noticed that tail rotor drive shaft appears to be broken after the first visible bearing where the cowling had been opened. This can be seen in three photos but it looks like there is some thing extra around the shaft after the first bearing? Is it possible for a bearing to have come out of it's mount?

TI

[helibaron]

EricFerret, Shytorque

AD2000-371 referred to BT109EP-12, inspection of scissor links. I have not seen BT109EP-86 but you say that it deals with marking of the link to aid correct installation.

As far as I am aware (and I stand to be corrected) the link can still be installed the wrong way round - is Mr. Murphy still alive and well?? It was this design fault that was never addressed following the previous accidents, the UK CAA seemed to ignore it.

I hope that I am wrong concerning the cause and I wish the pilot a speedy recovery.

[ShyTorque]

The BT's can be found here:

http://customersupport.agusta.com/technical_advice.php

Anyone operating the type but not receiving this information would be rightly concerned; we certainly do receive it in good time.

[skadi]

After looking at the photos of the wreck, it seems to me, that the airframe is not severely bent, especially in the cockpit area. Are the seats of a 109 not as crashworthy as the seats of a 900/902 or EC 135?
The pilot did obviously a very good job, but at last the hard landing wasnt good for his spine, maybe better seats may have prevented these injuries?

skadi

[helibaron]

ShyTorque

Thanks for the link, not operating the A109E presently but still interested.

The BT may help but the link can still be installed the wrong way round - still a design fault that could cause serious problems and a design fault that the Aviation Authorities have long been aware of.:ugh:

[rotorbrent]

Thanks for the photos. It seems that just about everything is bent except for the Tail rotor blades. So they were more than likely not turning at impact. These are the Orginal "C" model Agusta tail rotor blades. Seeing the driveshaft cowling open the inspectors were obviously looking for the cause of no rototational blade damage.
I pray the pilot has a speedy recovery from this and a discovery of what occured is found. While most accidents are of some type of Pilot Error this seems to be a obvious mechanical part failure.

Godspeed.

Brent

[ketchup]

Saw J at mid day today and he asked me to tell you that he was out of bed walking with his brother. As you can imagine, this is a huge leap in his recovery and I am truly amazed at the speed in which he is on his feet, be it a few steps.
He is very lucky to have such massive support of his friends and family and I wish him a speedy recovery.
Ketchup

[DeBeere]

I was also in visiting John today, I gave him a copy of this thread so he could read everyones good wishes and support.

To hear that he was walking is amazing! His determination to get back flying wont keep him in bed for long!

Well Done John!

[Brilliant Stuff]

I don't know the gentleman but this shall not stop me wishing him a speedy recovery!!!!!!!

I just hope the withdrawal symptoms won't be to vicious.:ok::ok::ok:

[mickjoebill]

After looking at the photos of the wreck, it seems to me, that the airframe is not severely bent, especially in the cockpit area. Are the seats of a 109 not as crashworthy as the seats of a 900/902 or EC 135?
The pilot did obviously a very good job, but at last the hard landing wasnt good for his spine, maybe better seats may have prevented these injuries?

skadi



A good question, here is an interesting crash test of seat cushions....


http://www.ostiv.fai.org/NPAref11.pdf
Extract
"An impact test was carried out using a layered seat cushion (Ref. 9).
A ½ inch (1.25 cm) thick firm grade energy absorbing foam layer, was placed on top of a 1 inch (2.5 cm) thick hard grade energy absorbing foam layer. A pilot manikin was fitted with an accelerometer at the base of the spine. The manikin was strapped firmly onto the seat on the test sledge. The seat was then rotated through 90°, so the foam was loaded to 1g. The impact velocity for the test was 8.1 m/s. The following peak g readings were
recorded.
Bare seat 35g
Ordinary soft foam cushion 45g
Energy absorbing layered foam cushion 26g

These test results showed that the layered energy absorbing foam cushion absorbed considerable impact energy, as well as providing pilot seating comfort. A further point of considerable interest and importance was the demonstration of the increased acceleration experienced by the spine on impact when ordinary soft foam was used as a seat cushion."

In my view all light aircraft seats should be fitted with EAF and pilots and crew should hassle the CAA to create this rule.
A 1/2 square meter of dynafoam is £18.




Mickjoebill

[helimutt]

could dynafoam be bought and cut to be used as a seat cushion on a present a/c seat?

I see it can be cut and used anywhere really. Might buy some and test it. Anyone spent 6 hours at a time in a S76 seat!!! No wonder I have a bad back!

[tinyjohnston]

Any update on how the pilot is now??
Wishing him a speedy recovery....

Tiny

[lipgo]

For Info:

Published 01 April 2008

http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?id=10490&lang=ENG&loc=1652

[RavenII]

Well, that report answers all questions!

Great job from the pilot! Hope he is back in the cockpit soon.

[maxvne]

I wouldnt like to be in the engineering company as there may not be one when this is all sorted out, we like to trust our engineers as we place ours and passengers lives in there hands.
Best of luck to the pilot on a speedy recovery

[electric69]

Best wishes to the pilot and a speedy recovery! :)

[206Fan]

Can't believe it was due to a bit of a rag round the TR drive shaft..

Hope john is doing well, how is he now??

[claudia]

You are very quick to blame the engineers. Who said that the engineering company left this foreign body on the TR drive shaft? What about the pilot's Check A before the flight? Why didn't he find it? Or, could it have been him (the pilot) that left it there?

[Bravo73]

You are very quick to blame the engineers. Who said that the engineering company left this foreign body on the TR drive shaft?

Wait and see.


What about the pilot's Check A before the flight? Why didn't he find it? Or, could it have been him (the pilot) that left it there?

When was the last time that you looked under the TR driveshaft cover on a Check A??? :confused::confused:


Or, could it have been him (the pilot) that left it there? That sounds a bit libellous to me... :ugh:

[RedWhite&Blue]

"You are very quick to blame the engineers. Who said that the engineering company left this foreign body on the TR drive shaft? What about the pilot's Check A before the flight? Why didn't he find it? Or, could it have been him (the pilot) that left it there? "

Does the RFM require the pilot to remove the tail rotor drive shaft cowlings in his walk round?

Claudia - what else should a pilot look for in his walk round. Does he need to strip the ship into its individual components just to be sure nothing is amiss?

Looks to me that the pilot did a fine job in an extreem situation, and i wish him a speedy recovery.

ATB

Red

[claudia]

I do agree with you, the pilot did a fine job and I also wish him a full and speedy recovery.

[ShyTorque]

When was the last time that you looked under the TR driveshaft cover on a Check A???

I do, quite regularly, on that type, because it says in the RFM pre-flight "full" checklist to check for grease leaks from the bearings.

I also check the "jiggle pins" are loose, as intended.

And as soon as I saw those photos (in fact one in particular), before I heard any rumours on the cause ........ I went in to work specially and had an extra special good look on the aircraft I fly most, although I wasn't sure what I was looking for. :)

Having said that, there is no reason for a pilot to have a rag up there while he's looking - there should be nothing to wipe up. If there was, I'd be calling for engineering advice.

[Flying Bull]

Hi all,

Helicopter pilots nightmare - loosing the tail rotor.

Checking the tail rotor drive shaft and bearings? I haven't flown any helicopter, where you could remove the cover without tools - so I just use a light and the holes to take a look, where I can. Wouldn't blame the pilot on missing the rag in there!

Regarding the saying, every landing, you can walk away from, is a good landing,
every landing you can use the aircraft again is a very good landing

Was there a chance for a "very good landing"? (i.e. a run on at the next airport?)
What are the flight characteristics of an A109 without the tail rotor turning?
Could you keep it flying like an EC 155 or BK 117 (both with either one giant fin or "surf boards" attached to the stabilizer, as long as you keep the speed up or is the tail-fin of the A109 to small to counteract the torque?

Still, the time for the decision is short and with a broken drive shaft there might have been additional banging noises out of the back, indicating further damage to be, so that the decision to autorotate was immanent.

Just curious cause a have my next go at helisim in a few days and I'm sure, there will be the one or the other fenestron failure to be dealt with - and I'm sure, without that training I certainly would have bent any bird with such an failure!

Glad to hear, that the pilot survived the nightmare and can walk again!


Greetings Flying Bull

[Helipolarbear]

With regard to the 'Check A', when a Heli is located at an EASA 145 facility in Ireland, (I assume it is a European wide standard..hence EASA) there is a requirement for the actual 'Check A' (Daily) to be conducted by a
Lic. Engineer. A Pilot may be given authorization subject to a plethora of protocol requirements when he/she are away from the support facility and in accordance with EASA Part-145A30(j)(4).

Either way, the actual preflight can be made as comprehensive as the PIC deems to undertake. Reasonable expectations are that all concerned exercise
safety, caution and respect the duplication and redundancy checks, as is the industry norm.

Having said that, we are ALL capable of human error, great or small, and we
must learn from these events, regardless!:cool:

[ShyTorque]

Checking the tail rotor drive shaft and bearings? I haven't flown any helicopter, where you could remove the cover without tools - so I just use a light and the holes to take a look, where I can. Wouldn't blame the pilot on missing the rag in there!

Flying Bull, the cowling on the A109 I fly has "Wing nut" Dzus fasteners. This is standard factory fit; no tools needed.

[CarryOnCopter]

The 'nut stranglers' do the check 'A' at base/ maintance organisation and sign for it, pilot does his own check in as much or little detail as he/ she wishes. Pilot not allowed to do check 'A' at base/ maintance organisation if they are at the same location if that makes sense.

Away from base/ maintance organisation pilot has to do it, of course a check 'A' authoristion has to come from the maintance organisation for the pilot so that means you can end up with having to do a check 'A' run around with an engineer for the same type of a/c but different a/c maintained at different organisation.

This is AOC, UK, JAR, EASA or what ever we are on today which is standard stuff, so at base you come in check paper work walk around a/c looking for the obvious, wouldn't start un-doing anything, you have to trust the engineers.

Unfortunatley '**** happens', and every now and then your most trusted engineer makes a mistake, well he's not a pilot :E , didn't say it was a good thing.

Best wishes to the pilot.

[Roofus]

Tail Rotor failures aren't nice.

My congratulations to the pilot for getting down as safely as possible.

Here's hoping for a speedy recovery! :ok:

[jellycopter]

Am I the only one here that thinks the criticism of Claudia's post is a shade harsh.

She makes some valid points, albeit a little insensitively.

As PIC I have also removed those cowlings in the past during post-flight inspections. The A109 A2+ I used to fly daily threw out so much oil from the exhausts that I used to clean under those cowls every few days - using rags! Nowhere have I seen it laid down that a pilot can't have possibly left a rag in a cowling. Claudia was defending the engineering organisation after someone else, rightly or wrongly, made an assumption that the fault must lie with engineers. Let's wait until the investigation is finished.

As for pilots not cocking up, I've never left a rag in a cowling, never left a cowling latch unfastened, never left a fuel cap off, never left a step out, never left the oil filler cap off, never exceeded Vne, never wet the bed as a child and never ever made a mistake whilst airborne...........I think you get my drift.:=

Healthy debate is great, but lets keep unfounded assumptions out of it.

JJ

[Hedski]

I agree Jelly. The statement in question may have been blunt but was nothing other than objective, as was Helimutt's previously criticised post.
We continue to wish John all the best whilst welcoming open discussion and debate on "a haven for.... pilots to discuss...."
H

[irc1804]

What are the flight characteristics of an A109 without the tail rotor turning?
Could you keep it flying like an EC 155 or BK 117 (both with either one giant fin or "surf boards" attached to the stabilizer, as long as you keep the speed up or is the tail-fin of the A109 to small to counteract the torque?



http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Agusta%20A109A,%20G-DNHI%2012-07.pdf

[Flying Bull]

Thank you irc1804,

so there is a tiny chance for some continued airborne time, evenso it seems, that the fin area of an A109 is to smal to conteract any considerable torque resulting from passengers/load/full fuel.
Evenso the A109 looks nice and has a comfy seat (tried to fit in ;)), I rather stick to the birds with the big feathers at the tail ;)
Greetings Flying Bull

[carholme]

Without attaching blame to anyone, it just points out the need for crews to use the duplicate inspection for a multitude of things. As an engineer, I know how worrisome it can be at times when the question runs through my mind about the possibility of leaving something behind. Though it can't be done in all circumstances, I still try at every opportunity to get a separate pair of eyes to double check for me, just to remove the doubt.
Glad to see that this gentleman is doing well and best wishes for the future.

Regards,

carholme

[claudia]

Thanks Jellycopter.

After reading Skytorque's excellent posts and now yours - both obviously by experienced 109 pilots. I think the "harsh" posters will feel rather stupid, especially that - "Norunway":p.

Regards

Claudia

[claudia]

Thanks Hedski

Indeed my statement was meant to be objective. But, I didn't expect it to be highjacked by people who obviously don't have a clue about the 109 and its many vices.

Regards

Claudia

[Thousand Island]

Just heard that another 109 had a rag found in a compartment by it's new 145 approved company and that AAIU have been to look have a look at it. Anyone got any more info?

[OEI and Still Flying]

What kind of "info" are you looking for?
The colour of the rag?
What type of cloth the rag was made of?


You seem to have the facts (ie) another rag found
Or is is it that you just want to throw more fuel on a fire !

[206Fan]

Just looked in the car there and found a white rag :E

How is john doing???

[DeBeere]

John is now at home recovering, I am sure he is much more comfortable there.

I am going to visit him tomorrow to see how he is doing and give him the photos of the helicopter being removed.

Also, another 109 has been grounded following investigation.
But thats all I am saying till reports are confirmed.

[ShyTorque]

Someone's in for a ragging. This will be like a red rag to a bull to the authorities.

Hope you're OK, John. :)

[OEI and Still Flying]

Shytorque

I would think their in for a "Shagging" more than a ragging.
And a painful shag at that.
Hope he has a big jar of Vasaline
Bet he'll have an ass as sore as the pilot when the "authorities" are done.
Or maybe NOT !

[Thousand Island]

OEI, I’m up for a healthy debate now that John is safely recovering. I am not throwing fuel on the fire, I was asking for further info. I’ll expand my questions further as Debeer has also heard the same report:
Lets review the accident factually: (extract from AAIU’s ongoing investigation)
On arrival these Inspectors carried out an initial technical investigation and found a foreign
object in the tail rotor driveshaft tunnel. This object, of cloth material, was entangled in the tail
rotor driveshaft, between the first and second bearings. The driveshaft had failed just forward of
the second bearing, which resulted in the drive to the tail rotor being disconnected. Initial
indications are that the foreign object was causal to the shaft failure. The Investigation is
focusing on the failure mechanism of the shaft and the origin of the foreign object.

Now when I heard about another aircraft finding a rag, I now have a few other question that will encourage further, healthy debate:

1) What is a Part 145 Facility?
2) What are the requirements of a Part 145 Facility?
3) How many engineers must be present during an inspection?
4) What items require a second signature from another present engineer?
5) As a pilot, what can you do to check if a 50 hour inspection has been completed?
6) Where is the line drawn in respect to ‘A’ check and the pilot checking the work of an engineer?
7) Has commercial pressure been over looked and gone to the engineer department? I have the support of other pilots when I tell my boss it’s not safe to fly. Do engineers have the same support?
8) Now that a second aircraft has ad a rag found inside it, what are the IAA doing about it?
9) What powers have or should have the IAA or AAIU to review or close a facility?
10) Should pilots and engineers be trained together so that they both can understand each others job and rolls?
11) Who is allowed work on an aircraft, be it open a panel or clean the interior/exterior?

Thousand Island

[Overdrive]

Can't believe anyone would deliberately leave rags anywhere near moving/rotating parts on an aircraft? What's the answer... a "rag count" like surgeons do with swabs?

[Robino]

Just hope the Authorities do the right thing on this before a life is lost!!

Wishing Mc a speedy recovery and hope all is well.

[VeeAny]

Just wondered, having been reminded of this, hows the pilot doing now ?

[Bladecrack]

Veeany,

I spoke to the pilot involved yesterday, and he is well on the road to recovery I am happy to report, although he still has limited mobility he will hopefully make a full recovery in due time. :ok:

BC

[206Fan]

Very good news..:D Cheers for that BC..

[FloaterNorthWest]

I'm sure this report will trigger some debate amongst A109 operators and maintainers.

The actual report by the pilot is extremely frightening and he did very well to walk away from it.

It also highlights the extreme nature of tail rotor failures at high speed cruise. I remember a report on one of the early Merlin crashes where they lost tail rotor drive due to a rotor brake fire and the description by the test pilot on how the centrifugal forces pinned him in the cockpit and how difficult it was to abandon the aircraft by parachute.

I don't think the reconstruction in the simulator was very realistic. The whole premis of an unannounced failure doesn't mean anything. They went into a simulator with the intention to failure tail rotor drive so they would have been mentally prepared for it. Why not during a normal simulator slot with an average pilot, undergoing some other training, get him to fly the profile flown during the accident and then fail the shaft and see what happens.

If they wanted to be realistic why not do it at 800ft with the AP engaged and have the collective friction on, which I assume it was as this seems to be normal practice. I think the proximity of the ground would have a substantial subconcious effects on their actions.

The recommendation to undergo simulator training is no good, they need to mandate it if a simulator exists. It doesn't have to yearly. Employers (non-offshore) sadly see trips to the simulator as "jollies", especially if they are in Florida! Mandate it and they can't argue.

I hope the pilot has recovered or is well on the way to full recovery.

FNW

[Bravo73]

I hope the pilot has recovered or is well on the way to full recovery.


He has. He was out and about at Helitech yesterday.

HTH.

[ragman20]

FNW you just beat me to it as I too agree that they should have preformed this at the actual height of 800 feet and I also agree they were prepared in the sim for the failure but the least they could have done was set the actual conditions and height on the day as they did say at one stage they started at 1500 feet and recovery was at 800 feet for one of the techniques flown.
Yes a big debate between operators, and as Pilots also now what was once normal practice has to change, referring to opening the tail spine cover unless as a 109 pilot you open it on every preflight.

[chopjock]

Considering that there was no history of failure of the tail rotor drive-shafts on the Agusta
Westland A109 fleet,IIRC A 109 had a tail rotor failure and force landed (no damage) in a Cornish field back in the 90's ? one of Castle Air's I think.