View Full Version : Radar Coverage Map


Jabawocky
19th Mar 2008, 06:22
I have had a look at the ASA website and could not find a decent map showing radar coverage, and of most interest at the lower levels.

Does such a thing exist? Or is it a heavily guarded secret? :E.

If anyone knows of one I would be interested to see it.

J



aileron_69
19th Mar 2008, 08:13
There is a radar coverage map available somewhere, I remember seeing one on the wall of an aeroclub somewhere but it was so long ago I cant remember where it was.

Jabawocky
19th Mar 2008, 08:57
5 posts(4 replies) and only one sensible reply.....:ooh: Thats better than average!!:}

No Forkie, not trying to sneak under....just wondering how I could stay in it more in fact!;)

As for stealth.....if I get a moderate distance from a radar head and go silent....I can be invisible!:E

I imagine a map a bit like a phone coverage map would be around somewhere.

J:ok:

PS......DAVE, no way ya Cessna is gonna be as stealthy mate:D

northcoastal
19th Mar 2008, 10:33
Here's a SSR map

http://www.vatpac.org/vat-dean/australia/radar.jpg

Jabawocky
19th Mar 2008, 22:54
Northcoastal:ok:

Thats a good start.

Be nice if it were more detailed but thats great!

Wot happened to all the other posts?.......my crack about sensible replies was half serious and half not......the humour here is part of the reason we all atend!

J

Lodown
19th Mar 2008, 22:55
I suspect the "authorities" decline to put their name on one because the coverage can fluctuate so much from one day to the next. Do they publish the chart that shows extreme coverage on the best day of the year, the one that shows a conservative coverage based on the worst conditions of the year, or pick something in between and accept the criticism if the coverage doesn't meet or exceeds expectations on a given day?

Jabawocky
20th Mar 2008, 00:51
I know it varies, but the one shown is a good example of a typical coverage map.

It could be handy when planning by taking a route that does not drop out all the time Vs a different one that was likely to stay in the radar coverage.

J:ok:

ForkTailedDrKiller
20th Mar 2008, 02:41
Its kinda hard to believe that in 2008 (did you get that?).....

..... 2008 ! .....

...... you can depart YBUD and not be identified on radar until you have climbed through about 6000' !

Dr :8

PS: Its no wonder that you can detect a nervous twitch in the voices of the blow torch drivers going into Hervey Bay!

Flying Binghi
20th Mar 2008, 02:57
you can depart YBUD and not be identified on radar until you have climbed through about 6000'

FTDK, does that mean you want more radars ?

ForkTailedDrKiller
20th Mar 2008, 03:42
FTDK, does that mean you want more radars ?

Can't say I care particularly, but I would have thought the punters going into places like Hervey Bay in a 737 should insist on it!

SSR, ADSB, whatever!

Dr :8

Flying Binghi
20th Mar 2008, 03:56
FTDK, Im not familure with YHBA jet ops, but the way fuel costs are going there may not be too many more Kero burners going to Hervy Bay - As Sir Richard suggests... take a train :ooh:

Jabawocky
20th Mar 2008, 08:34
Low level ADSB as was originally proposed.....................stop now before I get on my soap box:ugh:

J:ugh:

Flying Binghi
20th Mar 2008, 23:41
Dont the kero burners going to YHBA have TCAS?

Jaba, what happens to ADS-B when the civy GPS gets turned off or suffers from sun interference ?

PlankBlender
21st Mar 2008, 00:13
Flying B, he then at least has a mode S transponder still transmitting his ID, and he's most likely to be on the screen of someone and in radio contact with them, and that in many more places than currently..

Dick Smith
21st Mar 2008, 00:29
In the "hole" near Hervey Bay why not put in a few multilateration transceivers - as being installed in Tassie.

Then the system would work as if covered by SSR without the cost of the as yet uncertified ADSB.

By the way- when will the Tassie system be completed? It was supposed to be Dec last year.

Jabawocky
21st Mar 2008, 06:08
Flying Binghi

what hapens......you go back to the basic level of radar we have now, less a few old enroute radars. Somehow I do not think your negativity is all that relevant. If so things like the Y2K bug would have wiped us all out.

J:ok:

Flying Binghi
21st Mar 2008, 07:33
what happens to ADS-B when the civy GPS gets turned off ...

what hapens......you go back to the basic level of radar we have now, less a few old enroute radars.

Jaba,

And what about all the mony spent installing ADS-B equipment in aircraft, all the ADS-B repeater stations and ATC related stuff - all wasted money.

...I suppose I will end up with some more useless electronic junk to put on the shelf..... right next to the DME(A) unit.

Jabawocky
21st Mar 2008, 10:28
Lighten up mate.....I hear your DME story.....but if you look around the rest of the world the GPS thingy is the go:ok:

Roger Standby
21st Mar 2008, 10:46
Dick,

WAM in Tassie is due to go online shortly and undergo initial testing. I believe that it will be compared against the radar data and then hopefully on to the operational platform before mid year. Of course like the ADS-B project, the number of site locations has been reduced as time has gone on. AsA are keen to get it up and running asap as the "portable" radar is an expensive asset which would be better used if made "portable" again...

Dick Smith
21st Mar 2008, 23:00
Roger, why have the number of site locations for multilateration and ADSB been reduced?

It's news to me and a bombshell!

If the contract called for a certain number of locations in Tassie why would this be changed? How can the system work correctly with less sites?

And,by the way.what's happened to the low level ADSB proposal? Is it true that the whole proposal has been dumped, including millions of dollars of waste, but no one is game to say so?

SM4 Pirate
22nd Mar 2008, 07:12
Then the system would work as if covered by SSR without the cost of the as yet uncertified ADSB.Why is ADSB "uncertified"? If it really is uncertified, one must only conclude that MLAT is also "uncertified". Who would "Certify it"?

Given ADSB is currently in use (high) (and low near the box sites), surely it must have some sort of certification/sign-off for operational use?

There still is no radar "replicating" standards, is that what you mean?

I understand that some MLAT sites were not secured, ie not leased correctly or sites without power etc. so the units were not deployed; some rumour about using some of the units for the SY PRM replacement project too.

Also heard issues with turning the current LT head off with or without MLAT use; but not clear about it. Something like turning the radar off before turning MLAT on.

jumpuFOKKERjump
22nd Mar 2008, 13:45
Its kinda hard to believe that in 2008 (did you get that?).....

..... 2008 ! .....

...... you can depart YBUD and not be identified on radar until you have climbed through about 6000' !
Erm, if you had an ADS/B in your old banger you would have been identified when airborne. There is an ADS/B ground station there. I find it hard to believe that in 2008 (did you get that?).....

..... 2008 ! .....

The boxhead who posted two before me is still fighting against this astounding leap in capability and efficiency.

Flying Binghi
22nd Mar 2008, 17:14
this astounding leap in capability and efficiency

jumpuFOKKERjump,

Unforetunately, ADS-B doesnt work without GPS - I think all it will take is one miss-use of GPS and that is the end of ADS-B.

Dick Smith
22nd Mar 2008, 21:55
Jumpu, If the AA low level ADSB proposal is so good why is it that they are not going ahead with it?

And don,t say it's because of me. Thats rubbish!

And why are they installing a multilateration system in Tasmania if ADSB is the way to go?

Jabawocky
23rd Mar 2008, 00:04
Dick

Could it be something to do with ASA trying to find a way not to spend the $$$?

As for Tasmania, probably the reason ADSB is not being used there is because until the full fleet is fitted, both the smaller RPT and GA, the ADSB screen would be blank!

If they just did the whole thing and did it properly, put systems in place to ensure integrity, I am sure all would be better off.

J

aviation_enthus
24th Mar 2008, 04:23
Does the ADSB system interogate normal Transponders as well?

I've noticed on recent trips to TNK the 'R' flashing in the Garmin transponder display as if it's still identified on radar. On the NOTAMs TNK is listed as a recent site addition for the system...

If so can ATC see anything on their screens?

Plazbot
24th Mar 2008, 05:22
I must not have read the paper recently. When is it they are turning off the GPS system?

SM4 Pirate
24th Mar 2008, 05:43
Does the ADSB system interogate normal Transponders as well?AFAIK, Yes and No, an ADS-B ground unit only receives information; but it does send a signal to say I'm here, how about you. This is on 1090 the same as Mode S.

The Flashing R (assuming regular non mode S - transponder) is more likely to be TCAS interrogation from those above.

Plazbot, stop encouraging the terry towelled hat wearing flat earth society.

Plazbot
24th Mar 2008, 06:35
:ok:

This Flying Binghi dude seriously must spend all day looking over his shoulder. US turning off the power, terrorists guiding missiles through his window, Peak Oil theory.

Let's keep semi on the topic with HBA in particular. Am I right that there is no VHF on the ground there as well?

Quokka
24th Mar 2008, 13:56
I agree with Flying Binghi, anything could happen, absolutely anything, can't trust them terrorists...

Therefore Binghi my mate, replace that wooden rear door of yours with a reinforced steel door, weld the shutters over the windows, replace the insulation in your roof with Aluminium foil (no gaps!), pour some David Gray's Dusting Sulphur into a tin can and wire it up with a flash cube to the security light over your front door, sandbag the perimeter of your property and put two rows of Cat 3 wire in the frontyard channelling into the porch where you can sit with your pump-action on a rocking chair and listen to your Chiuaua take on the world as it passes by...

Flying Binghi
24th Mar 2008, 14:30
I agree with Flying Binghi, anything could happen, absolutely anything, can't trust them terrorists...

Therefore Binghi my mate, replace that wooden rear door of yours with a reinforced steel door, weld the shutters over the windows, replace the insulation in your roof with Aluminium foil (no gaps!), pour some David Gray's Dusting Sulphur into a tin can and wire it up with a flash cube to the security light over your front door, sandbag the perimeter of your property and put two rows of Cat 3 wire in the frontyard channelling into the porch where you can sit with your pump-action on a rocking chair and listen to your Chiuaua take on the world as it passes by...



Quokka,

LOL :D

I dont need to worry about looking after myself... the MIB are looking out for me anyway...:ok:

DirtyPierre
24th Mar 2008, 23:48
I've noticed on recent trips to TNK the 'R' flashing in the Garmin transponder display as if it's still identified on radar. On the NOTAMs TNK is listed as a recent site addition for the system...

In line with the reply from SM4 Pirate, your transponder can be interogated by any SSR facility. This includes military equipment either ariborne or on the ground.

I'm not at work, but is TNK Tennant Creek? If so, you're in an area that is full of both airborne and ground military radar equipment that could very well be interogating your transponder.

Deaf
25th Mar 2008, 11:20
GPS is vulnerable to geomagnetic storms which could put the system out for up to a couple of days.

The satellites are presumably designed not to be permantly affected but we haven't enough experience to know how strong they can really get. So all the satellites could suddenly cease to function.

jumpuFOKKERjump
28th Mar 2008, 02:36
Jumpu, If the AA low level ADSB proposal is so good why is it that they are not going ahead with it?Erm, who says they aren't. You just haven't seen the press release yet. Project Atlas I believe it is called.And don,t say it's because of me. Thats rubbish!I agree, you may find this difficult to believe, but it is NOT all about you...And why are they installing a multilateration system in Tasmania if ADSB is the way to go?Multilateration IS ADS/B, with extra ground stations. It will provide equivalent to SSR coverage at LT & HB, and a big swodge of low level ADS/B coverage where the overlap doesn't. You have expressed an opinion that this has disastrous effect on ATC workload and responsibilities. Does this mean you are now fighting against WAAM????? And expect one around Sydney also, yet they are getting a new TAR also??? Life is soooo complicated...

Diatryma
28th Mar 2008, 02:58
Jumpu, I "Googled" Project Atlas and this is what it's all about:

Project Atlas of the Department of Mental Health and Substance Abuse is designed to collect, compile and disseminate data on mental health and neurology resources in the world.

What are you saying about Dick?

Di :eek:

(just kidding Dick!)

jumpuFOKKERjump
28th Mar 2008, 04:07
He, he, he. Australian Transition to Satellite Technology (ATLAS). I like yours better:D

Quokka
29th Mar 2008, 14:11
July 2007...

Joint Consultation Paper

Transition to Satellite Technology for
Navigation & Surveillance

A proposal for change incorporating proposed amendments to
Civil Aviation Orders 20.18, 82.1, 82.3 and 82.5


The 39 ADS-B ground stations in the network will be
installed by 2009 under separate programs already underway.

northcoastal
30th Mar 2008, 00:04
This sounds like a good solution. I think the trend is for more jet services into HBA...expanded services from Sydney & Melbourne as well as a new 900m cross GA runway.

From the Hervey Bay Council Airport Masterplan media release 13/3/07...

http://www.frasercoastairport.com.au/media/news/Airport%20Master%20Plan.pdf

"The master plan includes provision in the future for more car parks and
security parking, a 900 metre cross runway as well as room for three or
four jets to be parked at a bigger terminal that will cater for the expected
growth in tourism."

This inevitably means more traffic, heavy and light. Most ultralights don't even have Mode A/C transponders let alone Mode S or 1090 Extended Squitter. Figure on a not inconsiderable proportion of the increased traffic being of the ultralight variety. This is no place to have a SSR hole or, for that matter, no place for any aircraft without a transponder...IMO.

Flying Binghi
7th Apr 2008, 00:39
Some quotes from a CBS story -

I can't see any planes," said Capt. Karen Lee, a veteran 747 pilot and director of operations for the world's 9th largest airline. (That would be UPS.) Commercial jets like hers do have a little screen that warns of imminent collisions, but it's crude, and not designed for navigation.
Is she talking about TCAS ?


So who would not love ADS-B? Who could possibly object?
:hmm:


And the UPS trial wasn't ADS-B's only success. The FAA also tried it in Alaska, where a lot of area has no radar services, presenting a very challenging environment for pilots.

And what were the results?
"We've reduced the fatal aviation accident rate in those particular areas on the order of, like, 38 to 40 percent," Capezzuto said.
Was that a reduction in mid air colisions due to ADS-B ???? :E

More at -

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/06/sunday/main3996581.shtml