The oldest operational RAF Aircraft not type but actual Aircraft?

[rafmatt]

Apart from the BBMF.
What is the oldest serving operational RAF Aircraft?

Type and actual aircraft.

e.g Nimrod XV244 as an example.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Probably the BBMF Chipmunk which is still a working aircraft, earning it's living in its original training role (as opposed to the BBMF display aircraft). As for front line types, I agree, some of those Nimrod airframes are knocking on a bit.

Does Martin Baker still operate its Meteors out of Chalgrove? Thinking civvy for a moment, there are still many DC-3 Dakotas that still turn a profit commercially, and do so in style.

[Archimedes]

Almost certainly a VC10 C1K, I'd have thought - XR807, perhaps? First flew 25 March 1966 according to the Boys' Bumper Book of the VC10. VC10.net suggests that it is still in service, although I'm sure someone from BZN can correct that if wrong.

[Roadster280]

Boscombe Down's Harvard? 1944, I believe.

Maybe some hair splitting involved though, are the Boscombe aircraft technically RAF?

[Jackonicko]

If you exclude the ancient MB Meteors (WA638 and WL419).

Probably the oldest Herc would be marginally older than the oldest Nimrod (both XV serials), and the oldest VC10 C1K older still (are XR807 or 808 still airworthy?).

The Dominies had XS serials (starting XS709)

There are a few XS-serialled Andovers, too. (eg XS596)

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Samuraimatt,

my point being that although most people think of the BBMF as consisting of Spit, Hurri and Lanc, these aircraft are display aircraft only. The lesser known BBMF Chippy is still serving in its original role.

Thanks for your input anyway - very informative. Dick.:rolleyes:

[HaveQuick2]

This one looks like it could be a winner:-

XS712 Dominie T1 d/d 18/08/1965

Still in service with 55 Sqn at Cranwell AFAIK.

(Info from www.ukserials.com (http://www.ukserials.com))

[rafmatt]

See i thought it would be a vc10 or a Nimrod.

lets exclude the Whole of the BBMF.

This is a quest for all you ppruners have a look when you get back to work someone must know.

[rafmatt]

And lets forget all the test aircraft and focus on true Operational RAF aircraft.

[L J R]

and trainers, and those still in the UK and those who haven't dropped a bomb in anger, and those......blaaah.

[RRAAMJET]

Any of the Andover CC MK2's around, still? The one's that went from TQF to 32 SQN were 1962, I believe.

None of the old winch-gliders around either, right? Sedburghs, etc.

Otherwise, the Doms. And their crews. :}

[Fg Off Max Stout]

At risk of being told off again, until 2 years ago the answer would probably have been 39 Sqn's Canberras. Some of those airframes had, I believe, been in operational service with the RAF for over 50 years. Since their disbandment, the aircraft have been privately commercially operated and have been leased back by the RAF for certain tasks.

[rafmatt]

I think the dom is the winner good work!

but it must be close with a C130 or VC10.

[Jackonicko]

It'll be an Open Skies Andover, mark my words!

[RRAAMJET]

C-130's were collected from Marietta GA from 1966 onwards...

I have no idea how old the RAF's 2 Islanders at Northolt are, if they are re-modeled BN2's or purpose-delivered Defenders...just a thought.

[HaveQuick2]

Jackonicko wrote:-

"It'll be an Open Skies Andover, mark my words!"


Not so Jacko, as it looks like this Andover is not quite as decrepit as some of the Dominies.

XS596 Andover C1(PR) d/d 01/06/1966

[Madbob]

Don't forget the Puma! Its been around a long time too and unlike the Dominies, VC10's, has been down in the weeds and getting shot at for nearly 40 years.

Most of the RAF a/c I ever flew in were older than their pilot! (Chipmunks, JP3's, Herks).....the youngest was the Jetstream and even they have been retired now!

Oh, what it must have been like to get to fly new ac every five years or so when new generations etered service; successive orders for upgraded capabilities then meant a new jet rather than a new "black box". viz. Hunters Mks 1-9, Javelins 1-9, Canberras B2 to ?, Vulcans B1 - B2, Victors B1/2, Lightnings F.1 - 6 etc.

This at least meant that you got a new Fatigue Index.....no restrictions on g, :) or added weight := caused by strengthening mods - remember the F4 limits in the 1980's just when NATO were getting new & agile F16's.....

I know were trying to go "green" but the RAF is taking re-cycling its ac a bit far.......time for some new kit and a few attrition replacements too, Hercs x4, Nimrod x1, Puma x4 the list goes on...

The real question though is not the individual age of certain airframes but the % Fatigue Index remaining in each fleet. I suspect that there is a lot less than everyone planned on and that with delays in new procurement (A400 M, Nimrod 4 etc.) the situation will only get worse, with little "light at the end of the tunnel"....

BTW - I made my exit in 1989.:ok:

[Widger]

Must be a few Sea Kings competing for the honour!

[harrogate]

and the oldest VC10 C1K older still (are XR807 or 808 still airworthy?).


808 or 'Bob' is still flying, although she's currently in maintenance 'til mid April.

[Jackonicko]

A Dominie delivered in '65 seems unbeatable - if we exclude all the MB Meteors, BoBMF Chipmunks, A&AEE Harvard et al.

But still some way to go to rival the Canberra - the last PR9s retired after 47 years (XH131 served from March 59 – 31 July 2006) and the last T4 (WJ874) clocked up just short of 51 years, from 24 December 1954- 1 Sept 2005.

[Madbob]

I know this might be thread drift - but apart from AEF's and ATC Gliding Schools - what's the age of the oldest RAF aircrew? 39 Sqn probably holds the record with some of its Canberra spec aircrew who were still operational :D in their late 50's....

The Herk fleet also had some old timers, I remember a senior Master Pilot (remember them?) in the sim who claimed to have made a few "car parks" (sic no buildings) in Berlin when flying Lancasters in 1945. He didn't retire until 1981. He'd have been close to 60 when he left.

[Wader2]

Oh, what it must have been like to get to fly new ac every five years or so when new generations etered service; new jet rather than a new "black box". viz. Hunters Mks 1-9, Javelins 1-9, Canberras B2 to ?, Vulcans B1 - B2, Victors B1/2, Lightnings F.1 - 6 etc

Madbob,

Most of the aircraft I flew in were less than 25 yrs old when I flew in them:

Anson - 18, :Lancaster (yes that one) 23, Lightning 5, Canberra 14, Vulcan 1 8, Vulcan 2 (wet paint), F4 (wet paint), Nimrod 4, Shackleton 24, E3 (wet paint)

Even the Varsity was only 7, Hastings 15 and Dominie (wet paint), Meteor 8.

[JagRigger]

Well, do HAL's 2 Hunters count.... They are on the military register.

ZZ190 was built in 1962.

[Madbob]

Wader 2

You'll now even boast about your cockpits having a "new car" smell I expect. My recollections were smells of oil and hydraulics, and in the Chippie, the last stude's breakfast!!

MB

[doubledolphins]

Not quite on topic but in 2001(ish) we had a DC3 (C47) flying during the winter JMC. It was testing new radar gear for the "New" Nimrod. Funily enough it had 100% sevicability whilst the mighty munchers were on task as often as they usually are. OK, OK I lied a bit it, was a "turbo" DC3 with a pair of PT6s for engines but still a very old aeroplane. :ok:

[Belle and Sebastian]

I know this might be thread drift - but apart from AEF's and ATC Gliding Schools - what's the age of the oldest RAF aircrew? 39 Sqn probably holds the record with some of its Canberra spec aircrew who were still operational :D in their late 50's....


Although a slight drift, Sqn Ldr Terry C (Canberra pilot) was in his 60s when 39 Sqn disbanded.

[Jackonicko]

That's nothing!

I once heard of one revered PPRuNer being described as having been a "73 year old woman when he joined!"

[BigDan]

quote:
At risk of being told off again, until 2 years ago the answer would probably have been 39 Sqn's Canberras. Some of those airframes had, I believe, been in operational service with the RAF for over 50 years. Since their disbandment, the aircraft have been privately commercially operated and have been leased back by the RAF for certain tasks.

Two of these pr9's are sat at Kemble and have been since they retired. One will definately not fly again, the other I'm not sure about, they still engine run her.

[SirToppamHat]

Jacko wrote:
It'll be an Open Skies Andover, mark my words!

There is, of course, only one Open Skies Andover. The other 2 operated by Quintycue are not adapted for OS use.

Sadly, all 3 of the Andovers are currently grounded following an incident with one of the non-OS Andovers in which a main oleo failed, writing-off the prop and, I suspect, the engine.

These ac are so old that RR won't even service the engines - they have to go to New Zealand for servicing, whilst the props go to Canada I am told. When I last looked, there was some graffiti on the wall of the 'toilet', it said:

"Pontious was 'ere!"

Boscombe Andovers:

XS596 Open Skies
XS606 ETPS
XS646 QQ (was RAE)


STH

[Tonkenna]

Regardless as to what the answer is, I think the saddest thing is that there are so many contenders. Modern fighting force ehhh:hmm:

Tonks :cool:

[PlasticCabDriver]

His leaving do isn't until next month, so I guess Warwick still counts:

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/PeopleInDefence/RafsLongestServingAirLoadmasterRetires.htm

[Dr Jekyll]

I remember a series about RAF pilots in the very early 80's, when they claimed one of the instructors had flown Spitfires on operations. He must have been 50ish at least.

[Thaihawk]

The 2 Northolt Islanders are not that old.

ZF573 was used for trials from the late eighties until delivery to Northolt around 1993 and the other one,ZH536 was delivered to Northolt in late 1991 from the manufacturer.

Both are turbo props.

[Zoom]

Probably not even in RAF colours but a JP 3 or 4 flew over here low and slow this afternoon, low and fast being an impossibility of course. It could be well over 50 years old.

[Rossian]

Madbob
There was an AEO on the Nimrod force who was 57 when he retired a year or so ago? There must be one or two catching up with him now.
The Ancient Mariner

[The Beakster]

I read an article in RAF news a few months ago about an A1 Linton QFI called Pete (Something) retiring. He was 63 and still a full-time RAF pilot, not FTRS. Apparently, his contract had been extended on account of his exceptional experience. Also, I'm not certain, but I think Lyneham Staneval has one pilot who is over 60?

[6foottanker]

Ah, the Howl! Pete Howlett retired eventually last year. The name still makes me remember inverted spinning!

[rafmatt]

guys lets keep it to RAF Aircraft not ones that are operated by civie or mod companies.

such as test aircraft
FRA jets
or any at empire test pilot school or Boscombe down.

or The BBMF they are a display aircraft and the chippies are used to train the display pilots.

just want to know what the oldest airframe out there is and where it is.
within the true RAF and they must still be in service so no canberras.

cheers?

[Madbob]

Got him for my JP3 FHT at Linton. 1 hr 30 mins. 1 radar recovery and 4 rollers and a full stop! Must have had full tips:). Saw me off to FY onto Gp 2 Jetstreams.:bored:.

[RRAAMJET]

A couple of Captains of the Queen's Flight would surely win the oldest aircrew actively flying at that time - they were on the crew list, on the imprest, Gen Decs, etc. They didn't actually fly the aircraft, but...they were the most fantastic people to converse with, and an absolute advertisement for the RAF.
Sir Archie Winskill flew Spits in the BoB, 603 Sqn, I believe...retired 1980's
Sir John Severne joined 1949 (??) retired 1989.

One Andover pilot retired aged 60, with the aircraft. Another top chap.:ok:

[Razor61]

ETPS Bassett CC Mk1 (XS743) was delivered to ETPS in July 1965 and still going strong.

[TEEEJ]

One of the BBMF Chipmunks, serial WG486, is a bit of a 'Cold War Warrior'. I believe that the RAF Gatow Chippies, or at least one of them, took a few AK-47 rounds going about their duties?

http://www.spyflight.co.uk/chipmunk.htm

Link to image of WG486

http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/De-Havilland-Canada/0700015/L/

[effects]

The Basset XS743 first flew in Feb 1964,
The Dominie XS709 first flew in Dec 1964.

[HaveQuick2]

effects wrote:-

The Basset XS743 first flew in Feb 1964,
The Dominie XS709 first flew in Dec 1964.

Perhaps, but the original thread was about operational RAF aircraft. The Basset does NOT fit the criteria.

[Audax]

:) Oldest current aircrew? There are at least 3 full time aviators at Linton all past 60 to varying degrees. Despite the sometimes disagreeable comments by some Pruners regarding old/reservist/civilian aircrew, all are highly regarded and doing an excellent job---which you might expect given their depth and breadth of flying and instructing.:D

[Brain Potter]

VC10 K4 ZD230 succumbed to the scrapman's axe a couple of years ago.

She was originally built as G-ASGA for BOAC and flew on 7 May 1964. This airframe was first example and prototype of the Super VC10, the largest jet aircraft ever built in Britain. In recent years at least, she must be a contender for the most historically significant aircraft to have been simply cut-up, with no thought of preservation.

How about individual airframes with the most hours? The VC10 fleet has some with over 50,000 hours. The TriStars must be up there too.

[brokenlink]

Bit tongue in cheek this but what about

XP490 - Grasshopper TX1 Primary Glider. Rumoured to still be airworthy at RAF Watton with 611 VGS though it would be a very brave (or completely mad) pilot who would launch in it. Suspect that the Van Gelder winch would pull it apart long before it reached take off speed.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

QUOTE
I know were trying to go "green" but the RAF is taking re-cycling its ac a bit far.......time for some new kit and a few attrition replacements too, Hercs x4, Nimrod x1, Puma x4 the list goes on...

The real question though is not the individual age of certain airframes but the % Fatigue Index remaining in each fleet. I suspect that there is a lot less than everyone planned on and that with delays in new procurement (A400 M, Nimrod 4 etc.) the situation will only get worse, with little "light at the end of the tunnel"....

BYALPHAINDIA REPLY
With this The RAF is also risking Adding to it's Accident book too:ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

Perhaps, but the original thread was about operational RAF aircraft. The Basset does NOT fit the criteria.

Bit of a moot point about 'operational'.

Does this refer to the aircraft that had, at some point in its life, been operational or one that is operational at the moment?

Clearly a Chippy that patrolled Berlin was operational but the role stopped a few years ago.

Then the Bassett was an operational aircraft when it was on the Comms Sqn, if you agree that 'operational' AT tasking was operational.

The PR9 was certainly operational until retired but 47 years is a red herring. When did those PR9s first fly?

The C130K and the VC10 are really the only aircraft in the frame is you define 'operational' as operational flying and still flying.

[f4aviation]

Resurrecting this old thread after some research for an article, I'd concur that Dominie T1 XS709 claims the prize, delivered to the RAF on 30 March 1965 and still going strong (I think).

[Dundiggin']

Just interested, but what were the serials of the 4 Pumas? :{

Many thanks.

[Barksdale Boy]

With regard to the two strands of this thread, I'm a little dis appointed that XS 709 is a contender as, between the 7th and 25th of November 1966, I flew in XS 712 (twice) XS 713 (twice) and XS 714. Captains were: Sqn Ldr Yeardley, Flt Lt Burdett and M/P Bird.

I seem to remember that in 1980/81 there was a crew on 27 Vulcan MRR Sqn, of whom four were over 60 or pretty close to it; the co-pilot was a youthful 51. It was said that when they arrived at Hickham on a ranger they enjoyed themselves by spending their time off drinking endless g + ts in bed.

[Old-Duffer]

Dundiggin, et al

If you mean which are the Pumas written off since entering service they are: XW200, 203, 205, 211, 218, 221, 225, 227, 228, 230, 233, 234, ZA934, 938 and 941.

The caveat here is that some have been stuck together and brought back into service and several others, which were originally categorised as write-offs, have been re-examined and are to be returned to service or might be used to prime the Mark II production/update line. It follows that this list needs to be treated with caution. Certainly a couple of the Iraq losses are apparently to be repaired.

O-D

[Tiger_mate]

IIRC XW198 is the oldest Puma in the fleet but there was once a XW197.

[Old-Duffer]

Can't find XW197 in the fleet listing. Could it have been a plastic 'recruiting' Puma or perhaps a manufacturer's prototype painted up for sales/advertising purposes?

O-D

[ian16th]

The resurection of this thread is the 1st time that I've seen it.

My nomination for the 'Oldest Pilot on the books', is MoRAF Sir Mike Beetham! I believe that his last 'mission' was in the BBMF Lancaster at Betty's Jubilee.

If you get to 5* rank, you don't retire :ok:

As for the Canberra PR9's I worked on them during my time at Akrotiri, Oct 62 to Oct 64.
They were on 13 Sqdn at the time.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Barksdale Boy


I seem to remember that in 1980/81 there was a crew on 27 Vulcan MRR Sqn, of whom four were over 60 or pretty close to it; the co-pilot was a youthful 51. It was said that when they arrived at Hickham on a ranger they enjoyed themselves by spending their time off drinking endless g + ts in bed.

John Marman's crew: I was the co pilot ( 24 ) Gordon Mitchell the Nav Rad (54), Brian Olive Nav Plot ( 53 - ish), Gordon Jones AEO ( early 50s).

The original AEO had been Tom Flood ( 44 ) and when he left the crew we had various guests for a while, Jim Mooney notably from the Rowlands crew when the Sqn went to 9 crews, but GJ took over permanently in late 80.

The best description of JM came from Bolive " He's a garrulous old b8stard at the best of times".

On a Ranger I would give them a bottle of gin and 6 pack of tonic, put the jet to bed with the crew chiefs and join them later in the hotel or BOQ to clear up the empties :-)

Good times.

[Fareastdriver]

IIRC XW198 is the oldest Puma in the fleet but there was once a XW197.

XW 198 was the oldest 330C. The OCU started with six aircraft, XW198 --XW203. Westlands had a 330 B or E to play about with and also to assist in the production of the RAF versions. Once 230 squadron was up and running the OCU went down to four.

XW 203 went to 33 Sqn and was nominated as a CAAP (Components Advanced Ageing Programme) aircraft together with one of 230s and some French machines. Their job was to fly a minimum of 100 hrs/month ????????? so that with suitable monitoring the component life of important bits could be extended for the benefit of the civil market. XW203 failed miserably when it attempted a low level barrel roll as a result of something quite seriously wrong with the autopilot.
The fireball from the overload tanks in the back went between the pilot and crewman and conveniently removed most of the cockpit structure enabling them to exit straight ahead with only minor injuries.