55 Sqn and Dominies

[HaveQuick2]

Is it correct that some of the Dominies used by 55 Sqn at Cranwell have been flying since 1965?

If so that is a pretty decent stretch of well over 40 years. Have they had much of an accident rate, presumably not?

Are they still fitted with RR Viper engines too? If so they have done exceptionally well.

What is the likelihood of them soldiering on to manage 50 years in continuous service?

[Yozzer]

More impressive when you think that they get bashed around at low level. which is hardly what a bizjet was designed for.

They have outlived their bases at RAF Stradishall and RAF Finningley, and I think that some were based at RAF Manby once upon a time. Yes they have paid for themselves many times over, but cant be the most fuel efficeient or quietest beasties around nowadays.

The first example, XS709, first flew in December 1964; deliveries to the RAF commenced in 1965 and it entered service in December 1965.

[Wader2]

I believe they had a certain amount of corrosion repairs done in the late 80s. Following a deep strip and discovery of corrosion in a civilain 125.100 (IIRC) inspections of the RAF fleet was done. The lower hull under the floor and also up under the toilet were found to be heavily corroded. I looked at one aircraft where the Abingdon repair team were working at Finningley writing a repair plan.

The fleet was also re-winged in an interesting and innovative way. It is true to say that no Dominie flying today is the same aircraft that left De Haviland's factory.

An aircraft was flown to Aberdeen where BA Helicopters removed the wings, stripped, re-sparred and paineted and reassembled them. The next aircraft was flown up, its wings were removed and the first set fitted in their stead. Its wings were then refurbished etc etc.

Yes, same engines. Noisy? Not at that size. Fuel efficient, certainly not. In the 60s we used to fly for about 3hr 25 and I think I did 3hr 40 once. In the 80s the trips were down to 3hr and times rarely exceeding 3hr 15. Once the low level syllabus was introduced the sorties were shortened to 2hr 30 - 2hr 45. Quite long enough at the more demanding activity levels of low flying.

During its time minor updates were made to the nav kit, a magnifier and a mechanical cursor was fitted to the Echo 190. One GPI 4 was swapped for a TANS. A DME was fitted. Small beer.

The nav kit was comprehensively updated in the 90s with, I believe a new radar too and also a new seating lay-out which marked a major departure from the 1960s V-Force layout.

Initially bone-domes were worn to get the student used to working with a hard hat. By the 90s everyone wore light weight headsets. Practise bleeding could come later.

[Al-Berr]

Most of the pilots at 55(R) have been flying since 1965 too!! :}

[serf]

So a bit like Triggers broom then.

[RRAAMJET]

I remember looking in the Dom Flt diary in the crew room: back in the 70's or late 60's, "M" had a belly landing. 'Sicknote' had one go off the runway in the early 90's when a drinks carton jammed the tiller as the gear was extended (it rotated slightly as the nose gear deployed) - no damage as I recall, bit of a 'gotcha'.

The Viper is far more bird-resistant and throttle-variable for low-level than the Garrett's on other RAF 125's. You just had to shove gobs of Esso 3880 into in on arrival at Gatow, before happy-hour...:}

[BluntM8]

The Dom has been fairly extensively refurbished over it's lifetime. As previously alluded to, the interior was redesigned in the 90s. The arrangement now has the student on the right, seated at a console with a combined radar and air data computer display - actually quite a good nav system - with his instructor at a similar station on the left, about 2' further back. Behind them are LRU racks, and there are 2 seats for additional crew either side of the fuselage at the very back.

That said, the front end remains fairly clockwork, although the right hand seat now sports a radar display and keypad for the nav kit, and the aircraft is getting a SIFF update.

I'll dig out some photos in a minute...

Blunty

[RRAAMJET]

Black and white or in colour?:}

[Tiger_mate]

I seem to remember that handing out the coffee (walking up and down the cabin) when baby navs were trying to take a sextant reading was a popular 'sport'. Do they still have sextants in our GPS age?

[Pontius Navigator]

Astro, I think not. The Air Almanac (AP1603 or therabout IIRC) does not have the nautical tables anymore ASAIK and just has the simple stuff like sunset, sunrise, moonset etc.

[Wensleydale]

And I'll bet that they don't do three position line fixing manual airplot in a jetstream on the North Sea route anymore, with A7s, majors and double deductions! We had it tough.......... now where's my zimmer frame gone?

[Pontius Navigator]

Wensleydale, Dom you mean, and you forgot the iced up peri sextant as Nav 2 forgot to pull it in after the shot.

[Wensleydale]

Hi PN,

I meant flying through the wind "jetstream" (in a Domine). You had to calculate the wind based upon your last fix and plotted heading, and then use that wind for the next leg calculation - if you didn't you were penalised. If you happened to fly through a jet stream, during your 3 position line fixing then you had to apply that wind regardless of the fact that the wind had subsided by the end of your leg! If, like me on one occasion, you applied common sense and airmanship by using a more sensible wind then you failed the sortie with a raft of application errors (A7s) because that was the rules! :(

The problem with the North Sea Route was the lack of fixing aids, and you were often left with a consul line from Stavanger (count the dots and dashes) which was a pain, and gave a big cocked hat leading to fix point errors and the possibility of "majors".

I am so glad that I was "radar" and not a plotter! I bet the Navs today havn't even seen a Dalton computer!

[BluntM8]

I use my Dalton daily...

...otherwise the table wobbles.

[2Planks]

Ah - double deductions - aka kicking a man when he was down. Oh and losing marks in the met brief.........where is chopper S?

[mystic_meg]

'Fuel, oxy, volts' anyone? - and don't leave your choccy bar somewhere where it can freeze solid!..

[BluntM8]

As promisied, the inside of a Dom. For those who don't know what they look like, not those who have done their time in one!

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff28/BluntM8/smalldom.jpg

Looking forward, with the stude on the right, the instructor on the left.

[50+Ray]

I look back on my two years flying the Dom as the best resettlement course I could have been offered. 950 hours and short cuts to the licence! Shame I missed the 25th birthday party due to my daughters birth. Any chance of an invitation to the 50th?

[Wader2]

Not GW, XXXV? You seem too young. :)

I am so glad that I was "radar" and not a plotter! I bet the Navs today havn't even seen a Dalton computer!

Today's navs are taught to do it without a Dalton. Quite an eyeopener as it works.

There was one Dom sortie (1990) where the Nav's kit was 'removed' for the RTB from a landaway. No dividers, compass, douglas, dalton, straightedge. Everything had to be done by eye and mentally.

Me? I used a casio computer. Input the route (say Route 5) wind, temp and fuel and keep pressing the buttons. Get a flight plan complete, and accurate, in about 5 minutes.

In the air, plug in IAS, Temp, Dr, G/s and then next track and out pops heading and groundspeed. Black magic.

PS, astro too. None of your assumed position nonsense. Plug in DR position, the name of the star and fix time and out came Alt and Az.

[JOE-FBS]

We aspiring PPLs still have to learn to use a Dalton computer (or a Pooleys Wizzwheel as it is usually called).

[HaveQuick2]

Thanks for all your responses, very interesting.

[TEEEJ]

I was fortunate to catch XS731 at low-level on Mon 17th March. My first Dominie at low-level!

I was on the Bwlch Exit (Dinas Valley, LFA7 - Wales). The location is great for the variation in backgrounds. Gracefully flown and immaculately kept. Hats off to all!

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/0a79ccc9.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/9431bd80.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/1891ac2c.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/d645eb1d.jpg

Cheers

TJ

[ProcATCO]

Great Pics!

XS731 came through Swansea ATC the same date I believe. (I run the ATSU there!).

I also have 731 in my logbook dated March 1981, when I was a U/T AEOp!!

Lovely!

:ok:

[threeputt]

What date in March?

3P:ok:

[PARALLEL TRACK]

ProcATCO

Did you make it to ISK?

//TRACK

[dagowly]

great aircraft :) I'm currently living in CHOM at Cranwell and the pilots seem to be enjoying them :ok:

[BluntM8]

A comment which would suggest to me that you've never spoken to a Dominie pilot...

Blunty

(Got my share of Dominie flying this year and last, thank you very much! Far happier elsewhere!)

[dagowly]

Why would i want to? lol

[BluntM8]

Well, to find out that the pilots are enjoying them, I'd have thought you might need to actually talk to a Dominie pilot...

[Unchecked]

The Dominie can be very enjoyable to fly.

If you're a fan of the smell of accrid fumes on climbout.

[Dominator2]

Yes, you are quite right the Dominie is 43 years old and still flying. XS 709, the first jet to fly is one of the ten remaining. Nine jets have been modified to SIFF and 8.33 radios but no TCAS,RNAV or RVSM. We still fly at 250 ft MSD judged visually, (twice the height of a large tree, or was it large sheep?). The 10th jet is about to be removed by the financiers as a 'Saving Measure', whatever that means. Another false economy since the future is unclear. Rear Crew Training is taking the rear sear in MFTS and so the Dominie may well see it's 50th year.

[BluntM8]

Dominator, I'm sorry to hear that. The last thing D Flt needs is one less jet!

[PingDit]

From the last set of piccies, I see they've been repainted with black instead of red! When did that happen? I miss my red and white ones.....:{

[Hardly Worth it]

modified to SIFF and 8.33 radios but no TCAS,RNAV or RVSM. We still fly at 250 ft MSD judged visually



It must be crucial to have all that Nav Gear at 250' MSD :hmm: