Safety clothing while training?

[KNIEVEL77]

Hi everyone,

I have just started my PPL(H) training and just wondered what you all thought about wearing protective clothing and head gear.

I notice Robinson sell a very reasonable priced Nomex suit and HSL sell reconditioned helmets.

I'm one of these people who have got insurance to cover my insurance and with that in mind I really would like to be fully prepared in the event of an accident BUT I do realise that probably 50% would find it laughable if someone turned up in protective gear while training yet the other 50% may think it a good idea, so is there any etiquette when it comes to safety?

All comments, for or against, would be greatly appreciated.

K77.

[helimutt]

Some people wear protective suits, some not. Do what you feel safe with. Personally I wouldn't bother for PPL training. I have heard of an instructor in the UK who wore a helmet for his flying. Can't imagne what the students thought if they didnt have one on.

[A.Agincourt]

Flight Suit: I think is a good idea - 1] Stops your clothes from getting gunged up which they inevitably will do over time. 2] If there is a 'flash fire' as a result of a prang or other and you are in the vicinity, then there is a high likelihood you will die from shrivelled lungs as you gasp in shock and inhale the high temperature. So do not worry too much about it being fire retardant. However, it should not be man made material because of the static potential which is why wearing simply yer everyday clothes is not a pretty good idea unless they are all natural fibre.

Gloves: Again personal choice but I like them preventing me getting my hands all mucky. Makes the sandwiches taste odd and there is the odd chance of picking up some carcinogenic grease as you fiddle with bits and pieces.

Helmet: Well until you get into the realms of being licensed and doing more hours than likely at present then the cost might be too much. Though you can pick up a pretty good one from an ex-mil source reasonably cheap. I like them because the offer hearing protection and prevent me banging me head when I slip on dispersal/apron. I prefer the web inset cradle type but each to their own.

It all boils down to whether you think you are going to get reasonable use out of anything you invest in. I think you might be best advised to wait a while until you are completely sure of getting your ticket and by then you will have been able to assess your needs.

Best Wishes

[Brilliant Stuff]

I guess my priority would be helmet due to hearing loss, gloves to keep my hands clean followed by a flightsuit. You can now I am told get flightsuits which come in two parts i.e. Jacket and trousers which would make sense for when you are sitting in the office.

[Hughesy]

Although it would be pretty good to wear in hot condition's, Borats mankini wouldn't allow much protection....from either fire or female pax :E

[Captain Gartmort]

You always want to turn up for every flight lesson fully prepared. :ok:

What you want to do is turn up at your flight school wearing a Nomex flightsuit, nomex gloves, helmet, strong pair of boots, leatherman, flashlight and kneeboard.

Alternatively, if this seems a bit much, then i would highly recommend investing in a good quality pair of flip flops, cargo shorts with plenty of pockets and something like a football shirt or quality strap vest.

Either way you will be respected by the flight insructors and all the other students. :ugh:

Best of luck...

[Lt.Fubar]

Most of those fire retardant trousers and jackets are made of 100% cotton that is coated with some sort of powder. Not a good idea if you ask me, because that powder wears out with use, and cleaning.

If you're looking for something to train or fly by your own, or fly anywhere else except VIP transport - Nomex flightsuit is the way to go. It's not really expensive, you can buy them from military surplus cheap and in excellent condition. I bought one last year for 30USD, it was wared by some USAF Major... once. Very comfortable when you get the right size :ok:

[KNIEVEL77]

Thanks for all of the replies chaps and to be honest i'm happy to spend the money especially if it's going to save me from an injury but no doubt most people will have a good laugh at someone turning up in a flight suit and helmet to fly an R22!

Although maybe it might be me having the last life it it saves me from severe injury!

[firebird_uk]

As a student I'd be careful about things that cover your eyes too much. My instructor didn't like my silvered wraparound sunglasses as he could never tell where I was looking.

Ensuring you're looking out or in at the right times is obviously vital.

Other than annoying sunglasses I wear standard civvies. Which is wierd, 'cos whenever I'm out on my motorbike I go for the ATGATT principle. All The Gear, All The Time. Perhaps it's because on my bike I think someone else will try to kill me, in the air it's more lkely to be me!

You need to be comfortable and if you do choose to have all the gear, make sure you have an idea. :ok:

[VeeAny]

Never heard of ATGATT but it seems like a good principle.

One thing to beware of becoming is 'Got The Gear But No Idea'. Your personal steps to remain safe are your business, no one elses. If the school wants your business and you turn up in a pink tutu who cares !

I've taught one guy who always wore sandals, hawaiian shirt and shorts. The only issue I had with him was the sandals, and on my say so he swapped to firmer soled shoes as he couldn't really control the pedals properly in soft soled sandals.

I've also taught a guy who turned up in Nomex suit, and we used to take the p*ss out of him, but now we've all grown up a bit, I'd sooner look like a car mechanic (in Nomex) than a traffic warden if I had to get out of a smouldering or blazing aircraft.

Do what is right for you, accept that some people will comment on it, and unless it affects your training, leave them to deal with it.

I'd be interested to learn if burns are more common injuries post accident in hot countries where shorts and T shirts are the norm, as opposed to the UK, where trousers or flight suits prevail. Maybe that'll be my next crusade, but I am a bit busy with the current one...

GS

[KNIEVEL77]

I did read somewhere that if you were to have an accident in a helicopter, god forbid, that the main cause of injury or death is a blow to the head so a helmet MUST surely help in that regard?

[Lt.Fubar]

No, but you can find reports which say that wearing a helmet could save pilot life if he had one during the crash :hmm: (last one like that I read about NZ TH-1F crash)

Although wearing a helmet during training might be bit of overkill, since you shouldn't end up in any really dangerous situation in the first place - but flying commercially or on your own is a whole different story, there the ATGATT is the way to go.

[KNIEVEL77]

Lt. Fubar,

Good point, perhaps I will make sure I have all of the safety kit for my first solo flight, just in case!

[VeeAny]

Lt. Fubar

Considering that in the UK at least 1/5 of all accidents to helicopters happen when training maybe its not such a bad idea for him to protect himself during training after all.

Gary

[nigelh]

Rather than spend money on helmets etc why not save it and spend a little more and learn on a 300 which is a proper chopper :ok:
I think little white gloves , clip on ties and those daft gold stripes are all pointless ( but highly amusing for everyone else , so dont stop guys !!) but in my accident i would have 100% saved many weeks in hospital with burns if i had worn nomex AND IF i had been knocked out i would have died.....i do however slightly wonder what the passengers are going to think about only the pilot wearing a helmet on a charter . Although it now seems odd to be flown in the mountains in Canada by a pilot without one .

[KNIEVEL77]

Gary,

What would Scott's reaction be if I turned up for my lesson with protective suit and headgear?

J.

[VeeAny]

J.

Hopefully he'd just get on with it, expect a ribbing and thats the end of it. Talk to him beforehand he's a grown up, if he can't accept it move on, but I think he probably will.

Nigelh

I couldn't agree more, ties and bars etc how lovely but you never fly any better or worse without them. Maybe in the commercial world they imply professionalism but in the training environment anything goes in my mind as long as the student is comfortable and can concentrate on learning to fly.

GS

[lelebebbel]

How tall are you? If you are 6ft (1.80m) or more, you might not fit into an R22 cockpit with a helmet on.

Nobody should be making fun of you because you are wearing a nomex suit.

[KNIEVEL77]

I'm 5ft 10" but another reason for the helmet is that I currently work as a Television Outside Broadcast Sound Engineer and anything extra to protect my hearing (as well as my head) must be a good thing!

[aclark79]

Instruction makes up 19.6 percent of accidents on a ten year average from 1998-2007 in the United States, second only to Part 91 personal use. (according to stats provided by HAI)

While the total number of fatal accidents is usually higher in turbines (per year), the accident rate of fatal accidents is higher in recips... While I don't think training is inherently dangerous, it is foolish to think it is less dangerous than commercial operations and certainly has a worse safety record than the areas of the industry where safety equipment is mandatory.

I for one wear a flight suit and wouldn't feel stupid wearing a helmet, if I could afford a good one. Personally I wish helmets, flight suits and a days survival equipment were standard use items across the training industry in the US.

[Whirlygig]

About £12.99? About twice as much as my lovely white glove!!

Cheers

Whirls

[Gaseous]

The military, HEMS etc. wear all the gear presumably because it increases the chances of survival in an accident. The ground is just as hard and fire just as hot in your Robbie. I always wear a helmet and usually nomex and I dont care what people think. Its not like no one ever died in a light helicopter.

[Lt.Fubar]

Aclark79, in that case, I stand corrected, yet I would still look at class A mishaps, not all accidents in general.

[Gaseous]

Easy one malc. Tell them during the safety briefing that in the event of a problem it's in the pax's best interest that the pilot is not incapacitated. They happily accept that.

[Senior Pilot]

Links -

Helmets (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=110753)

Survival suits (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159510)

Knives (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=193264)

Safety Clothing for offshore ops (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=218116)

[Lt.Fubar]

Gaseous, seen that one in action :}, but the pilot mentioned a birdstrike... the poor pax was privileged sit up front, he changed his mind and sat as far back as was possible :D (Mil Mi-2RM)

[Gaseous]

pilot mentioned a birdstrike The idiot. I suppose he showed a few crash videos too. The trick with the briefing is to give the required information without inducing unnecessary alarm. This is not hard with a bit of thought.

If the pax doesnt like the risk and wants to get out I dont see a problem with that. Its never happened to me.


They usually regret it at the end!!!:yuk:

[aclark79]

Lt Fubar, apologies if my reply seemed like an attack, certainly not the intention.

I don't know what correlation you can make to the relatively low ratio of fatal accidents in turbine commercial operations compared to piston training and commercial operations and the use or lack of safety gear. The data avalible doesn't allow for those kinds of interpretations to be made, but it would be interesting to compare the statistic on minor/major injuries on reported accidents that would have been fatalities if the crew had not been wearing gear...

Anyone aware of any recent accidents where part of the crew/passengers were killed or severely injured while the passengers/crew wearing protective gear were relatively unhurt?

[Whirlygig]

I wonder how our friends, passengers think if we had all the protection gear on

They'll think my bum looks big in that! :}

I don't know of any corporate pilots (S76s, A109s, EC135s etc) who wear all the protective clobber; they wear nice white shirts, smart, pressed trousers and jackets with, presumably a stylish corporate tie. And, of course, the obligatory 5 gold bars! I have been led to believe that the reason behind this that passengers want their pilots to look like pilots. After all, airline pilots don't wear Nomex suits and helmets. :}

It's all down to personal preference - I wear gloves but that's a personal preference (having hot little hands - can't make pastry) but other than that, I just wear natural fibres. If I was you Kneivel, I'd see how it goes before splashing out on equipment. I know ('cos I'm a girl and I love shopping) how tempting it is to get all kitted up but often you will find that there are non-aviation items that will do the job, or other things that are more important.

Take a few more lessons and see what your instructor says.

Cheers

Whirls

[Lt.Fubar]

Since I had some could-be-serious accidents, mostly connected with sailing, and "connected activities", I'm all for protective gear (heck, I won't wear a 100% Nylon jacket anymore, and I'm carrying folding knife wherever I go ;) ).

If the operator want its pilots to look like airline pilots, fine, but those shirts and trousers should be made of fire-retardant material. But the one 100% Cotton + magic powder are not really trustworthy, and the one made of Nomex... well the white are nowhere to be found (they're mostly navy, tan or khaki).

About the helmet... well there are cases of birdstrikes with fatalities due to not wearing head protection. There are also cases when birdstrike knocked out the pilot, even though he was wearing a helmet... but had his visor up (if I remember correctly it was an instructor in TH-67 during flight training), report stated that if he had his visor down nothing would happen... and having some serious pounds lying unconsciously on the cyclic is not really healthy scenario :ugh:

[Whirlygig]

But this isn't about what an operator wants their professional pilots to wear but what a student with a few hours should wear.

This is about assessed risk; a pilot, flying a solo mission, say HEMS, may feel differently to the pilot who is piloting Lord & Lady B to Cheltenham for the Gold Cup. Similarly, students are not going to be put in risky cirmcumstances but a) his or her instructor or b) the nature of the flying.

I had a bird strike on my second solo circuit; the nature of the flying meant that the danger was very much less than if it had been a commercial, operational flight.

Cheers

Whirls

[A.Agincourt]

I had a bird strike on my second solo circuit; the nature of the flying meant that the danger was very much less than if it had been a commercial, operational flight.

A bird strike presents the same potential danger no matter what type of flight. The bird has no understanding of what a commercial or operational flight is.

I have witnessed at first hand the results of a bird in the cockpit. A helmet and visor is essential in such a circumstance to retain vision for the future. And no, bird strikes do not just take place at low level.

Best Wishes

[Heli-Ice]

My philosophy is that you should use whatever protective equipment you like to keep you as well protected as you feel comfortable with. You never know if the thing is going to catch fire or something will try and bang your head. It may all happen during training you know.

I always fly with my helmet on and wearing a flight suit. Up here it keeps me warm, I don't think it would be comfy in warmer places but fire is very warm everywhere.

You can think about why the heck we (in Iceland) are supposed to carry lifevests even though we are not flying over water at all? If that is a safety requirement, why isn't a personal protective gear also required?

It is up to you and only you what you like to wear until you meet the bosses that want you to look like a pilot ad.

I have gotten the question about why I am wearing a fire retardant suit and a helmet but not the passengers. First It was a little embarrassing but when the passengers got the explanation about that we wouldn't want to have our pilot incapacitated in case of some emergency, they accepted it with no further questions or comments.

On the other hand, why are flight instructors shy of wearing the gold bars?

[aclark79]

I think the point I was trying to make is that the idea that instruction and the student pilot phase is less risky than any other point in your career is a myth. When do you do the most autorotations, when do you do the most slope landings, when do you do lots of manuvers with lots of chances for things to go wrong... in the student instruction phase. I think I'm in a lot more danger as a student/instructor than as a tour pilot.

Certainly the US accident statistics put a lie to the idea that instruction is less dangerous or has less accidents than pretty much all other commercial sectors.

Bird strikes happen to students and students with instructors, I've seen the results and they are not pretty.

[RobboRider]

Just to add my belated 2c worth - In my nearly 1000 hours of PPL flying and nearly 5 years as a flight physician on a rescue helicopter I flew about an hour without a helmet. The rest of the time I had a bone dome including all my training (and even used it when I did the recent test piloting on my home built fixed wing)

While life or death is a significant demarcation there is a further possible result and that is closed brain damage from blunt force head injury. That can be far more debilitating than being dead. :ouch:
I don't have any figures but I suspect since many prangs are non-fatal that a head injury is probably more of a risk than death.

It doesn't take much rattling around in a small cockpit to smack your noggin on some structural surface and end up alive but disabled, unable to function or unable to carry on in the job that you now do.

Flight suits - Wore them on the job but very hot (in North Queensland in Australia). Gloves same. In the R22 I admit I didn't, mainly because of the discomfort of the heat. Had one in the hangar but only wore it a few times. Probably should have but got lucky.

[swordfling]

From reading this and similar threads on PPRuNe, it seems to me that almost everyone agrees that safety gear should really be worn. The only comments against it are based on appearance and being laughed at. In reality, I really doubt many pilots want to wear it to look good etc, they want to wear it to try save themselves from injury or death. We don't laugh at motorbikers for wearing their safety gear - it's seen as normal, and none of the bikers I know would consider riding out without it.

Robinson Safety Notice SN-40 (Jul 2006):
There have been a number of cases where helicopter or light plane occupants have survived an accident only to be severely burned by fire following the accident. To reduce the risk of injury in a postcrash fire, it is strongly recommended that a fire-retardant Nomex flight suit, gloves, and hood or helmet be worn by all occupants.

Do we all have to be involved in accidents for this to become normal?

I'd suggest the risks for all pilots are probably the same - for students, risks come from inexperience, for frequent flyers (commercial or otherwise), from the higher flying time.

[Lt.Fubar]

Great... so when R22 will come with enlarged cabin, so some of us and our helmets could finely fit inside that death trap ? ;)

[SASless]

Having played the wienie roast scene as the weinie....

Gloves...leather or nomex or combination.....must have...must wear.

Nomex flight suit....nice to have....should be worn.....but at a minimum...natural fibers unstarched material. NOTHING NYLON, POLYESTER....and ladies....no tights, panty hose, or similar garments.

Boots....all leather uppers and at least above the ankle.

Helmets....wear them all the time.

Despite wearing gloves, I was in the fire long enough (in flight mind you)...for them to burn off and provide me the distinct pleasure (Not!) of watching the skin on the top of both hands bubble up like a balloon before we were able to land. Imagine if I had not been wearing gloves at all.

The Nomex flight suit I wore worked as published....anywhere it was double or triple thickness due to pockets and folds.....no damage....where it pulled tight in a single thickness.....serious burns occurred. They may be baggy but there is a reason for that being "good" although not very fashionable.

The real key is avoiding the use of man made fabrics (less Nomex or other fire resistant fabrics) that will melt and adhere to yer hide. Wool and Cotton work fine.

Also...remember that applies to yer knickets, tights, undies, and support garments too.....fore if you get into a real fire....they will burn too.

While in the Camp Zama Army Hospital Burn Ward in 1970....I saw perfect examples of just why the choice of garmets and or equipment was so important. The nylon web seats in Hueys and LOH's and the Survival Vests made of the same material....melted and adhered to the victim's skin. Nomex burned but charred.....issue Jungle Fatiques made of all cotton charred and fell off....the mixed cotton and polyester uniforms caused bad burns.

Nomex is not fireproof.....only resistant and chars rather than melts and is only for flash or short term fires. If you get into a real fire for any length of time Nomex will only protect you so far before serious burns occurr.

[A.Agincourt]

SASless: Thank you, born of personal experience I think that that post just about states the case for wearing the right gear. I have for all of my career and will continue to do so. So far I have been pretty fortunate but on the one occasion that I did not wear my helmet when I should have - I ended up with 8 stitches in my scalp. That was the first and last time I made that mistake.

If anyone thinks that their flying rate does not warrant precautions then consider the number of accidents involving helicopters this year alone. I suspect the majority were not 'commercial' but involved PPL's. But its the same old story, "It won't happen to me, I don't do enough to worry about it".


Best Wishes

[generalspecific]

I fly the 22 and the 44.. always wear a nomex flight suit and gloves even though I fly in 40 degree heat. I'm sure many think I look like a knobber, but its funny how the more you fly and the better you like your life the more comfortable you become with the odd strange look.

For me its all about managing risk. Both A/C have 100LL sitting directly above a hot engine and my chances of getting burned in a survivable "hard" landing are thus greatly increased over the same level of accident in a Cessna 182 where once the fuel is cut the tanks are behind the engine.

The turning point for me was when I saw that retired USAF Majors slide show (can't remember his name) on aviation burns victims due to innapropriate clothing.

Bottom line is you look a lot less stupid in a flight suit and gloves than you do with 60% burns and claws for hands...

[TwinHueyMan]

I remember reading a story of a videographer that was in a firey helicopter crash, wearing a polyester track suit. The fire didn't do much, but the track suit melted to his skin and scarred him horribly. While it's unlikely everyone will have a pickle suit on some day, there is still something I think we can do to help not make things worse if there's a crash.

I'm a big fan of the Army's ADCU and ABDU, which are the two-piece flight suits in tan or camouflage pattern. The ADCU is the tan set, very light weight, very comfortable, and looks super cool. I wear the pants all the time in the Robby, with a cotton shirt. Not the best protection, but nothing is melting to me.

Also, I wear 100% cotton socks with some non-synthetic shoes. Not the best, again, but far better than something that will melt to me. I found a pair of Vans skateboarding shoes that look nice, and are 100% non synthetic.

Helmets are awesome too. Wish my gentex dome-o-crap wouldn't keep breaking. I've bumped my head getting in and out enough to know that's probably the first thing that will happen in a crash-em-up. Maybe some day I'll cancel the life insurance policy and use my premiums to buy one of these cool helmets:

http://a757.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/31/l_b05cc33a9bf0103a02d4bff310f528c4.jpg

Mike

[mickjoebill]

http://massif.com/nomex_clothing/inferno_jacket.php

This company make fire resistant kit, tested to US standards.
They have a range of fleeces (one is waterproof) and t shirts ect that can do double duty out of the aircraft.

A complete outfit is more expensive than a one piece pilot suit.
The material is relatively new carbon/nomex blend that is very comfortable in fleece form.

Nomex itself doesn't insulate from heat. An air gap between skin and the suit does.
The value of Nomex lies in its ability to charr and not fall apart as easily as other fibers. So in most circumstances it keeps the air gap for longer.

So the baggy look is safer!

A helmet visor protects the face from (line-of-sight) radiant heat.




Mickjoebill

[KNIEVEL77]

Thanks everyone, looks like the general concensus is that safety equipment IS the right thing even if you do get laughed at.............maybe one day it will be me who has the last laugh? :ok:

[Whirlygig]

What, the ones I "procured" that bear an uncanny resemblance to those issued to RAF pilots or the golfing glove I use (in summer!)? My use of the singular is intentional!!

The RAF gloves are very soft but do stretch with wear; the golfing glove is a tight fit which I prefer.

Cheers

Whirls

[CottonEyeJoe]

FAA and Robinson recomend Nomex suit and helmet as most injuries have resulted in fire ! your choice

[jemax]

This was a little incident I was involved in, I can confirm that leather is very effective as a fire retardent and I was obviously wearing a crash helemt too. It was warm enough to melt all the plastic off my leathers and helmet, but I was uninjured except a small area between my leathers and helmet, my chin and neck.

Interestingly as a corporate jock I choose not to wear fire protection on a daily basis, for me it's a question of sensible risk management. If I was involved in another type of flying then it would be different.

Quick quiz:-

1. How many litres of fuel did it take to feed this blaze, it actually was Avgas

2. Extra special prize for the first to spot my legs/boots in the first picture

http://lh4.google.com/Jemax61/R91vyNBmjLI/AAAAAAAAACA/zh5jqxZNkO4/Oulton%20Park%20028.jpg?imgmax=512

http://lh3.google.com/Jemax61/R91v19BmjMI/AAAAAAAAACM/PCIUZImGwrc/Oulton%20Park%20029.jpg?imgmax=512
http://lh5.google.com/Jemax61/R91v5dBmjNI/AAAAAAAAACU/dWi52uXZ-Sw/Oulton%20Park%20030.jpg?imgmax=512

http://lh4.google.com/Jemax61/R91v8NBmjOI/AAAAAAAAACc/HXbRkrXyBWE/Oulton%20Park%20031.jpg?imgmax=512
http://lh6.google.com/Jemax61/R91v-tBmjPI/AAAAAAAAACk/YEbuOiDb4BM/Oulton%20Park%20032.jpg?imgmax=512

[Flyin'ematlast]

1. About 10 litres? :hmm:

2. Is your boot sticking up over rider No 41's left shoulder? :\

So it seems that there is some consensus that we SHOULD routinely fly in Nomex (or at least cotton or wool) clothing with no man made fibre clothing, wear a helmet and gloves and wear leather footwear.

I have ordered a nomex flightsuit after following this discusssion but where in the UK can a casual PPL(H) get a decent helmet at reasonable cost?

Ian.

[helimutt]

another question then, the flight suits we wear for offshore flying during winter, they have a rubber neck seal and rubber cuff seals. How would this fare in a fire? It might seal the water out but flames may have a different effect. Also, why no helmets for offshore flying or do any companies supply helmets?

I was surprised to see some of the older pilots wanting to get straight back into their cotton coveralls as soon as the sea temps in NS are above 10degrees C. I don't think that there is much difference in the cooling effect beyween say 9 degrees and 12 degrees. It's still gonna be bloody cold.

Suppose it's down to risk.

[Lt.Fubar]

Because they don't crease like the 100% cotton ? ;)

Mickjoebill, great link, will have to buy some stuff from them... after robbing a bank :ugh:

[jemax]

BTW about 20 litres, 5USG,

Correct about the boot.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Helimutt,
Now that is a good question after all offshore has more Health and Safety than you can shake a stick at.

As for putting the coveralls on as soon as possible we were more thinking about exhaustion from the heat in the cockpit due to the lack of fresh air.

[MartinCh]

guys, that massif web looks nice for nomex gear.
Thanks.

Thinking of buying one or two pieces soon before starting my heli training.
Few hundred bucks is nothing considering how much I'm going to spend over the coming years :\

anyone got good suggestions on similar garment companies in the US?
I'll check out first two pages as well for any links. I'll google it as well, but being quite reluctant and ignoring 'fashion' crap (except watching Victoria's Secret catwalks etc)

Me too, I'd rather look silly than f:mad: up cripple. I happened to have big scald on thigh thanks to mom's coffee (she had it way worse) when I was a kid. Real 'fun'. I can manage to control pain to a certain degree having been waiter for some time.
But that's pretty mild to what one could experience in the cockpit and panicking and waving hands around doesn't exactly contribute to safe-ish landing after **** hit the fan. Or after crash landing when seconds matter.

Just that I don't think there's many PPL students wearing fire-resistant gear. I survived bunch of near misses in general life so getting into aviation should see me taking more precautions.

I'd also look into all-cotton clothing. Not that I like man-made fabrics too much. My mom had lots of fun when I was a kid and rejected every woolen cardigan and anything with more than 10% polyester in it. Lycra feels fairly nice, though :) I don't mean stockings, btw.

[Masak]

Hi Martin

You might want to look at 5.11 tactical gear website. I normally wear a cotton version of those pants and I like them much. Comfortable and very practical. As you will see, you can now get a fire retardant ones for very reasonable price.

Petr

http://www.511tactical.com/fire-retardant.html

[KNIEVEL77]

HSL who are the main dealers for Alpha helmets in the UK have offered me a fully reconditioned helmet............but will this be okay as i'm aware that you should never wear 'seondhand' motorcycle helmets?

[SASless]

Masak,

I have worn 5.11's for years....one complaint is the belt like loop on the right hand side has a nasty habit of hanging up on door levers and the like. One might consider removing that loop.

For those aspiring for promotion....5.11 makes some very nifty foam knee pads that fit right into the double knees.

[500e]

SAS
Got those DON'T work!!!

[MartinCh]

cheers. I googled nomex clothing and got bunch of companies that do or sell some. Massif looks bit dear although with more than twice the nomex weight per area than other flight garments. Presume it's about preferences..

I'm one of those (if there are few at all) that don't bother spending on casual clothing but love outdoor and functional high-tech gear and gadgets :-)

I'll probably go for some light 4.5 oz/sq yard coverall that won't be of much bother in R22 althought I'm not heading to Florida. And Massif's Inferno Jacket (13oz) for cold or mild climate in the future.

Yeah, talking about functional gear and people having a laugh.
Nobody can beat my pink glittery kevlar paragliding helmet I used to wear.
I would never look more stupid than in my short free flying past..

[Gaseous]

K77
I bought a used alpha. The cost saving was considerable. I think the issue with motorcycle helmets is with some of the materials used in their construction dont show damage. I'm sure HSL will not sell a dud. Carbon fibre and kevlar are pretty tough. Reject it if the shell is not perfect inside and out.

Only you can decide if the risk of getting a used one is worth the cost saved. For me it was worth it.
Cheers.
Phil

[SASless]

It has just hit me....I have a problem with the title of this thread!

Am I wrong to think the idea of wearing safety equipment is limited to just "training".....and not wearing it during "non-training" flights?

Should not safety equipment be worn at all times?

If not....what determines the need to wear it or not wear it?

[MartinCh]

SASless,

fast forward me into 5 years in the future and I won't bother with training.
I'd be in 'plush' safety gear with smooth helmet and Bose X or David Clark ANR 'puffing away' over North Sea or Canada. Just like in the Click.
You'd save me from my best years of life wasted thanks to following my tough plans with flight training. Also, crappy hospitality/catering jobs..

Well, thread was started as .... while training, but it applies even more so during casual ops, obviously. That's why old salts contribute and it's useful.

[Whirlygig]

The consensus of opinion here is that safety apparel is recommended whether it be gloves, footwear, suits, helmets etc.

Why then don't instructors wear the same gear and also encourage their students to get appropriately kitted out? If this happened, instructors can pass on information about what to look out for, any pitfalls, how to get a helmet to fit correctly etc. Then, if this became standard, no-one would feel a berk!

Given the "overall" (pun intended) cost of obtaining a PPL(H) and, of course subsequent licences and ratings, the cost of the kit is only a small proportion.

Cheers

Whirls

[KNIEVEL77]

Great point Whirls, can any instructor reading this shed ant light on Whirls' comments please?

[tony 1969]

Here's my thoughts for what its worth
I guess it all comes down to personal preference. Also most schools have some form of corporate wear/uniform. Having met a guy in Canada some years ago who survived a post crash fire I have given it much thought. I like wearing gloves, some dont, leather boots or shoes seems fairly standard, I certainly recommend them rather than trainers.
The shirts I am provided with are not 100% cotton ? Though I do go for 100% cotton trousers, and tee shirt/underwear. Its got to help surely ! may well invest in a flameproof type jacket and or trousers, (be nice to find somewhere fairly local so you can actually see/try on the stuff, also what is the nomex gear like after a few too many washes, can you get the fire poofing re applied???) to wear a flight suit at work would not be part of the uniform??
Would be happy to wear a helmet I personally have no issues at all with them, the looking like a pill@ck argument doesnt wash, particularly if more people start using them. Though you would constantly get the "where's mine?" question from the guy or girl next to you, not sure what the boss would say when I am doing trial lessons in it though, may put the fear of god in some of the more nervous passengers.
I guess it all comes down to how the student percieves "the danger" Some people wil happily fly in shorts and flip flops:ugh: !!!

[O27PMR]

Tony

1 - 'fire proofing' is inherent to the fabric and not a coating that is aplied to it so no amount of washing will wear it off.
2 - Just checking, you do realise that there is no such thing as fire proof when we are talking about clothing? The best we can hope for is flame retardent but even this will burn once it gets hot enough.
3 - The level of protection Nomex or cotton clothing will offer in anything other than the smallest of fires is negligible. Even in Nomex or cotton the heat generated by a fire will severely burn you.

I strongly support the wearing of helmets as, in the event of any impact, they may well save your life and I absolutely agree that looking like a div is neither here nor there.

Ultimately I would rather fly in shorts, t-shirt and a helmet than a Nomex flying suit with no helmet.

Like you said, danger is very much down to the perception of the individual so as long as the individual is comfortable and able to concentrate on their flying...

[tony 1969]

O27PMR- Thanks, I thought I'd heard of some Fire retardant clothing that didnt stand up to washing too well but I could be wrong. Fully appreciate its not "Fire Proof" I just like something that is not going to melt to my skin, which would make matters worse, and may well give you a few extra seconds with flames licking round your feet !!!

[mickjoebill]

O27PMR- Thanks, I thought I'd heard of some Fire retardant clothing that didnt stand up to washing too well but I could be wrong. Fully appreciate its not "Fire Proof"

Tony 1969,
Proban is an industrial process that impregnates fabric with a fairly stable solution that makes the fabric fire retardant. However the polymer can be removed by oxidising agents found in some washing powders. Proban impregnated clothing is popular in industrial applications where risk is low (racing marshals usually wear proban)

You can make your own solution to impregnate fabrics using the chemical Borax.

From the National Fire Protection Association " 9 oz Borax Powder; 4 oz Boric Acid; 1 gallon of water . Mix thoroughly and spray on or dip. Solution should drip off material."

300gms of Borax £1.25 from herehttp://www.inest.co.uk/products/Fire_Retardant_Spray_For_Fabric.asp

or buy it ready prepared from here....
http://www.lawsonscleaning.co.uk/productinfo.php?pid=1900


In my view an ideal garmet is one that is moisture resistant so if the fabric is splased with fuel it is not absorbed.
As far as I can tell the new Massif water proof jacket is one of the few that fits the bill.
But not much good for hot climates!

The triage rule of thumb for 1st responders goes like this;
100 less your age = max percentage of your body with 3rd degree burns

So a 50 year old is likely to perish if more than 50% of their body is burnt.
A 25 year old can take 75% burns and still survive. So protecting at least half your body ain't a bad idea.

A roll of cling film is a cheap and excellent 1st aid treatment to protect serious burns from infection. Throw a roll in your flight bag. If you survive shock or blocked airway at the crash site it is usually infection that kills weeks after the event.

So initial problem in treatment is to find clean water/liquid to cool the burn, the experts say it is better to cool the burn with a fire hose than delay waiting for sterile water, then rinse the water with saline solution asap.

Thinking of the smaller airports and fields, crash trucks could be equipped with cling film and a few gallons of sterile water for under £10.



Mickjoebill

[Freewheel]

MJB,


Crash truck? Never heard of or seen such a thing. Good points though for any workplace where a fire extinguisher is required, just keep the cling wrap in it's box or it'll get filthy in a hangar.


Funnily enough I recently had a conversation with a CFI recently about this kind of thing and he quite liked the idea of protective clothing but was very shy about wearing a helmet with students.

I made the point that students tend to adopt the habits of their instructors, both good and bad. A student that starts training and progressively invests in appropriate safety equipment is more likely to have a preservative frame of mind than somebody who flits about in a jockstrap and stilletos.

I can see for an introductory flight it would be confronting for your instructor to wear a helmet, but the early lessons before hovering can be managed to be relatively low risk, barring mishandling at altitude and a helmet isn't going to help if you're mast bumping an R22.....

There was a fatal ground accident in Australia some time ago where the instructor left the aircraft and removed his helmet when outside the disk. He then returned to the aircraft while it was shutting down and was struck by a sailing blade at relatively low rpm. The injury was not immediately fatal, but the instructor never regained consciousness before succumbing. I believe the instructor's family posted on this forum at the time but haven't found the thread yet.

[mickjoebill]

Crash truck? Never heard of or seen such a thing.

A US term:ok:

"crash truck"
n.
A truck specially designed and equipped to rescue victims of an air crash. Also called crash wagon.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved


Mickjoebill

[O27PMR]

Tony - Sorry if you thought I was trying to teach you to suck eggs but I just wanted to make sure you knew the difference...(I have met too many people who believe a layer of nomex will make them 'fireproof')

MJB - Thanks for the info about chemical treatments, I've not come across this before and I have no idea how effective it is. I would have thought that it would still need to be applied to a natural fibre which then begs the question - is it worth it? I think that if I really wanted my clothing to be flame retardent then I would buy something designed to be so.

Excellent advice about first aid treatment of burns too... Clingfilm is one of the best ways of covering a burn and keeping it clean. Even if the roll is a bit grotty it should always be clean on the inside. Always make sure that the burn is thoroughly cooled though, with water preferably but if no clean water is available any cold harmless liquid is better than no cooling at all, before applying the clingfilm dressing. Don't wrap it too tight either:ok:

PR

[A.Agincourt]

There are some very good and indeed, interesting snippets of info in this thread. I wonder - in the event of an accident / incident and the crew decided to make an insurance claim against their policy [or other] would the insurance bean counters raise the question "were you wearing approved protective equipment". Now I know that provided we follow CAA policies etc that in theory this circumstance should not happen. However, in other industries, failure to observe H&S etc does result in loss of claim payment or a proportion thereof. I guess tis only a matter of time before the insurance wallahs figure another way to avoid paying out the loot. Just a thought. I wonder if there is anyone out there who has been in such a predicament/ or similar.

Best Wishes

[CYHeli]

In Oz the workplace insurer is called workcover and covers the person, not the property for medical and rehab costs incured in an accident/incident.
In line with A.A's question on insurance, now that Robinson has the Safety notice about wearing safety clothing (incl helmets), and the general FAA/CAA/CASA rule that aircraft are to be operated in accord with flight manuals, it's not a long step for an insurer (workcover) to argue that safety gear must be worn. The consequence of not doing so? The insurer saying that their liability has been mitigated by the persons own actions and risk taking behaviour...:(
I fly an R22 & B206 in 40 deg (C) heat doing scenics and photo work. I wear nomex gloves every flight. I used to wear dark blue nomex pants in my last company, but this new company wears charcoal coloured pants, and I haven't had a new set of pants made up in the new colour.
I'm not allowed to wear a helmet for scenics/joy flights. I would have to buy my own helmet for other airwork.

[Freewheel]

Robinson Safety Notice 40(?)

I don't have a copy to hand, but I believe that this notice (and the other notices) are in the "non-approved" section of the manual/POH, which makes it an interesting inclusion, but not an enforceable part of the manual/POH, like MGW. Otherwise we'd never be able to fly it out of balance or do photo flights with less than 500 hours.

Still makes for a very good idea though.

[tony 1969]

O27PMR said "Tony - Sorry if you thought I was trying to teach you to suck eggs..."

Not at all

[Kiwi63]

"I'm not allowed to wear helmets for scenics/joy flights"..

Doesn't that raise an interesting liability issue for the company then, that they are preventing you from wearing safety equipment?

Have you got it in writing, say in your ops manual or employment contract, that you are not allowed to wear helmets for certain flights?

[MDflyer]

hi guys, after 21 years in the usaf helmits are good, for ppl or cpl, get one and be safe,
in a crash it would give you 70% more chance,

what can i say, every bit helps, lol

[KNIEVEL77]

So it looks like most recommend a nomex suit and helmet..........hope it goes down okay with my instructor!

[helimutt]

I'm pretty sure if you turned up in a clown outfit, knowing your instructor, he would be laid back enough to not really care, as long as the big pants didn't catch on the cyclic or collective, and you did as you were told! ;)

[bluestack]

somewhere back, the original poster mentioned his need to protect his hearing..

I don't wear a helmet, but found the constant noise on the ramp was giving me some 'ringing'.

I bought musicians earplugs from entymotics, they're molded to my ear, are clear and can stay in for a conversation, as they block out only the harmful frequencies..

$100 and paid for themselves 100 times already never mind the extension to my medical...hopefully.

[KNIEVEL77]

Bluestack,

Is there any chance you could tell me who sell the earplugs, being a Sound Engineer and working on the Formula One circuit I could do with a pair of these even if just for my job, i've not found a pair that cut out noise yet you can still hear conversations without taking one ear out.

Many thanks.

[KNIEVEL77]

Does anyone know anything about Mart Aviation.........tried to contact them a few times but there's never been an answer?

Are they a big company or a one man band?

They've got some decent stuff, just wish I could contact them!

[CottonEyeJoe]

Robinson recomend Nomex suit gloves and Helmet. As most casualties are burn related

[KNIEVEL77]

CottonEyeJoe,

I've just bought a Robinson Nomex Suit, looks good quality, practical and comfortable.

K77.

[CottonEyeJoe]

I bought a GENTEX helemt off ebay and got my local radioshack to fit all new Dave Clark bits works like a dream!

[bluestack]

Knievel,

I'm in the States and went to a hearing aid place which a load of the pilots were using for the same plugs. They took a mold of my inner ear, sent them off and about 10 days later the plugs turned up.

They're a little quieter than normal - so just need to remember not to shout too much.

Here's the link for the actual entymotics product - just a matter of finding someone to create the moulds.

http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/erme.aspx

[KNIEVEL77]

Thanks Bluestack.

[Need money]

Knievel77: Believe some of the most popular in the UK are as below:

http://www.ultimateear.com/

If I recall correctly these are the ones generally used by Formula1 mechanics too......

[KNIEVEL77]

Thanks again, Need Money!