from H-300 to R22

[matteolo]

Hi everybody...i have a question for all the pilots :eek:

Do you think that pilot a R22 is very different from pilot a H-300??

The problem is that i am going to take the PPL with a H-300 here in my country and after i will go in south africa for some moths and i will fly a R22....

do you think that there are big differences between the two elicopters?
some hours of trainig are sufficent or is more difficult??

Thank everybody....and sorry if my english is not very good!!
:ok:

[RavenII]

Well, they are both different, but if you take a couple of lessons with an instructor in an R22 you should be fine.

In my experience my students that moved from the 22 to the CB300 had an easier transition than the guys that came from the CB300 and moved to the 22.

But hey, they both have a main and a tailrotor, so it can't be THAT different ;-)

The important thing is that u get your proper training on the Robi (but that's the same with every helicopter)

Don't just hopp in and fly it, (i guess there is no SFAR73 in South Africa), and you will be fine......

Robi is more fun anyway :ok:

[DennisK]

As a new pilot, I'd suggest you endeavour to do the initial training on the type you intend to fly.

The two bladed R22 is very type specific in handling and the 45 hours or so you will be doing with an instructor will consolidate that type handling and knowledge.

If you have to learn on the 300, then my view would be you should fly around a further 20 to 30 hours on the R22 with at least 75% of those hours with an experienced TRE/TRI.

Good luck with your flying.

DennisK

[matteolo]

ya...i have to pass a proficency check before fly with the R22!!

however i also think that if i am able to fly a H-300, after a couple of hours on the R22 i will be able also to fly it!!

(i hope so...:uhoh:)

[matteolo]

dennisk...you think that i have to fly for about 30 hours beore i am ready??
mmm...there are a lot!

[RavenII]

It really depends on your skills.

Just don't take it on your own if you don't feel comfortable with your auto's.

But i guess the guy who will sign you off to take his Robi for a spin will take care about that.

I recon as a fresh PPL on the CB300 you will need 10-20hs with instructor if you wanna be on the safe side..........

[matteolo]

oh...this is not very good....I hope it will take less hours...but probabily you have right....

:ugh:

[nervouspassenger]

Hiya - Also you will have less RPM control to deal with in the R22 as it's governed. Good luck.

[Lt.Fubar]

In Vertical magazine from December 2003, there is an comparison of both types, I have it somewhere as an pdf file, I'll send it to your eMail when I find it.

Now, from what I know, it's easier (and cheaper) to train initially in 300, and then go for R22, than the other way. Plus the 300 is a bit safer machine. But that's the case if yo want to fly both.

Right now there are more Robbies flying around, and many operators fly the R44, so if you're thinking about a job, then going through the R22 only, than R44, and than a turbine will be much more effective. At least that's what I figured out ;)

[matteolo]

ya i know that H-300 is more safe, powerfull and easy than the robbie....but i had no idea that the difference were so big...

...I am also planning to continue with CPL and find a work...mmm...is very difficult to make a choiche now....:ugh:

[rick1128]

While the general rules of helicopter aerodynamics apply to both helicopters, you will find the feel of each different from the other. I learned in the 300 then did a transition into the R44. While the engine control was easier due to the governor, the controls gave me conflicting signals in the area of feel due to the angle of the handgrip. Also the sensitivity of the controls was quite apparent. Besides the 300, I have time in the BH206, BH212, AS350, R22 and BH47. Based on my observations and experiences, I do not like the 22 or 44. They do not fly like any other helicopter out there. I think you will find these machines will take you more time to transition into that you think.

[206Fan]

ya i know that H-300 is more safe, powerfull and easy than the robbie....but i had no idea that the difference were so big...

...I am also planning to continue with CPL and find a work...mmm...is very difficult to make a choiche now.Matteolo..

Do an hour in the R22 and an hour in the S300CBi to see what one you feel most comfortable flying, i myself am tempted to jump into the 300 when i start my CPL but i think im gona go with the R22 and get more hours on it..

[FLY 7]

It is my understanding that the H300 (S269) CB is a closer match to the R22, the CBi is superior and the 300C is far superior.

[Whirlygig]

300CB has a carburettor so in that respect, it is similar to an R22. As for superiority rankings of CB, CBi and C, I think you'll find the hourly rates reflect that!!! :}

Personally, I found flying a Jet Ranger after a Schweizer easier than an R22!!!

Cheers

Whirls

[500 Fan]

'ya, I know the H-300 is more safe'

Not so sure about that. R22s aren't exactly falling out of the sky because they are scrap. No helicopter is perfect. The R22 and H300 have their good and bad points both. There is very little margin for error in the R22, thats for sure. But if you can fly the 22, you can probably master any other single as well. The low-G problem is well-known and easily avoided. The H300 is very stable in comparison but overall the 22 makes for a better pilot. I did my PPL in the 22 and the transition to the 44 was fairly easy. Have a little experience in the H300, H500 and B206 and handling-wise, the 22 prepares you well for all these machines. To go from the H300 to the B206 would be quite a jump given the different way the cyclic is set up in both machines. Go for the 22, it'll pay off in the long run.

[TheMonk]

If you were going from R22 to the H300, then a couple of hours should do it. Since you are going from the H300 to the R22, I think DennisK's advice is a good one.

The R22 will be faster, less forgiving.

Monk

[matteolo]

...so is more easier jump from an R22 to a 300 than the contrary...
...I had no image that the R22 was so complicated and more difficult that the 300...

[RavenII]

It's not THAT more difficult, in many aspects i think it's even easier (Just think about the stupid runup in a CB). It just needs a little more attention and "the gentle touch ;-)"

About the more safe aspect: I'd rather have an engine failure in an R22 than in a CB300, the Robbi glides at least a few feet, i agree that its easier to autorotate the CB if it comes to RPM management, but the CB also glides like a rock..........

I don't really get your problem, if you wanna find a job, you need to build some hours first, so why not take the Robbi, invest a few bucks into an instructor, and just go and fly it. What's wrong with having an instructor next to you for a few hours?

That's the same with all machines, you wouldn't move from a R44 to a AStar without getting some proper training, or even from a AStar to a CB300, or whatever......

[Hughes500]

Raven 11 you are having a laugh, preferring to be in an R22 than in a 300 if the engine quits?????? There is absolutly no comparision, the 300 is far far superior to an R22 in auto and touch down. I will show you an engine off landing in nil wind with a 300 ask how many instructors will do that in a 22 - I bet not many

[Helipilot1982]

I went from the H300 to the R22 when i was hour building for my CPL. I would say that it is easier going from the 300 to the r22 than the other way round but i would give it a few more than just 2 hours conversion!!!!
The one good thing is if you loose the govenor in the R22 then you will know how to deal with it:ok:

[Nobby 05]

Matteolo,

I notice your location is Milano. I have just moved near Milano to work and have been trying to find a 300 to continue flying, so far I have only found R22's in this area.

I'd be grateful for any advice as to where I might find one and how much it is likely to cost over here.

Good luck in SA!

Nobby

[MLH]

I earned my PPL exclusively in an H300C and went to the R22 for my CPL. I found that the R22 required more quick and precise cyclic inputs than the H300 with lateral pendulum motion being more noticeable. The R22 governer was a welcomed feature and I seem to remember the R22 having a bit more tail rotor authority.

[Fission]

I did about 20 hours in a S269CBi and found it (relatively) easy to fly.

When I stepped into a 22 for the next part of my training, I had the same confidence and promptly tried to crash into everything within 100 metres.

Mrs Fission was watching and she thought there had been a control failure. Fortunately I had a very good instructor who saved my life that day !!!

I stand by the phrase 'if you can fly a R22, you can fly anything' - nothing in my career has been as challenging :)

__________________
Free Beer - Tomorrow

[PlankBlender]

I've just changed from the 300 to the 22 mid way through my CPL training.

The 22 is a twitchy f%cker :eek:, and after the first hour I felt like 45 hours ago when I'd jumped into a chopper for the first time from the plank. The 22 seems to require much faster cyclic corrections than the 300, but has the same lag in the reponse, so while you're learning to get the timing right, the oscillations are like when you first learned to hover.. I'm getting the hang of it after two hours in it, but I suspect it'll be another one or two at least until I feel as confident as in the 300.

I would absolutely recommend everyone to train on at least two machines, including the R22, it would have to make you a more versatile and thus better pilot.

[heliman84]

I did my PPL in the H300 and then did IR/CPL in the 22 and 44. Here are my thoughts on the two.
H300 -
The good - Very stable. Very forgiving. Easy energy management in the rotors during auto rotation. Handles high (20-30kt) winds well.
The bad - Long start up and shut down. No governor. Seats are more upright which is uncomfortable after a long flight.
R22/44 -
The good - Has a governor. Fast top speed. Quick start up and shut down. Comfortable seat position. Can store things under the seat. Very effective tail rotor.
The bad - Very sensitive controls (requires finesse). Energy management more difficult (rotor speed increases/decreases rapidly in autorotation). Harder to handle in higher winds.
From my experience, the H300 is much easier to learn on. During my transition to the 22/44 after getting my PPL, I felt like a brand new student again. It was rather difficult to learn to hover and become comfortable with it. However, once I became comfortable with the robbie, I found I really enjoy it. It is great helicopter. Both helis have the ups and downs.
In short, the 300 is easier to handle while being forgiving, and the 22/44 is fast and comfortable but requires more skill from the pilot.
-cheers
---sidenote, the 44 is easier to manage rotor rpm than the 22---

[matteolo]

Helipilot1982, I have to pass from the 300 to the 22 for the same reason.
...hour bulding...
...I am happy to see that someone have done that successfully before me!!
....so it will not be impossible...!!!!

[manfromuncle]

I dont think the 300 takes much longer to startup/shutdown. Both take the same time to engage the clutch. The 300 needs a 3 minute cooldown (2 mins at 2500 and 1 min at 2000 if i remember), the R22 needs 2 mins (at 75%). Hardly a "long" time.

[heliman84]

I consider the shutdown to take longer in the 300 because it doesn't have a rotor break. The start up is about the same but the shutdown is noticeably shorter in the 22.

[Gaseous]

Choose your poison.

If you learn on a fuel injected aircraft and move to a carb you WILL forget the carb heat, probably more than once.

If you learn with the governor and move to an ungoverned type you WILL get into a low RPM situation and quite probably an overspeed situation if the correlator is so set up. (Not at the same time though).

I'm sure there are plenty more of these catches too. Under stress its all to easy to go back to procedures that are correct for the type you learned on, not the aircraft you're currently flying.

In all probability you will get away with the above occasional brain glitches but be aware that the accident reports are full of new to type pilots.

[4ftHover]

Gaseous - excellent point

I did my PPL in the 22 then took the 44 type rating soon after qualifying. Whenever i fly the fuel injected 44 i always look for the carb heat prior to descent out of habit.

Not sure whether it would be lodged so heavily in my brain if i did things the other way round.

I would welcome the opportunity to try the 300 but round our way its all 22's.

[Gaseous]

I'm glad its not just me. I haven't flown a 22 for about 5 years but I still look for the carb heat occasionally.:ugh:

[C-HNGS]

Raven 11 you are having a laugh, preferring to be in an R22 than in a 300 if the engine quits?????? There is absolutly no comparision, the 300 is far far superior to an R22 in auto and touch down. I will show you an engine off landing in nil wind with a 300 ask how many instructors will do that in a 22

Hi Hughes500. how many hours do you have in 22 and 300. I bet you got much more in 300. Which Heli you prefer for fulldowns dependes to a hight degree on your experience on the type. Sure the 22 has less inertia but that doesn´t make it an unsafe helicopter. It requires a different technique - sure. Personally I choose the R22 also. Even after I have done fulldowns in both! Because the glide is qiute a factor in an single engine:ok:. How many emergency spots do you find in mountains like the cascades or over a city?

So back to the initial post. I think it is much better to start on R22 and then transition to the H300. You want to be a skilled pilot? Then you have to look for the best training and not for the fastest! You will last much longer if you take the challange that the R22 offers rather then setting a record for the "lowest flight time required" during initial training.

For you matteolo, I can tell you from excessiv instructor experience that the pilots who trained on the R22 had no issues converting into other (heavier) helicopters. The R22 is a light aircraft and requires permanent control inputs but that trains you for your life as a professional pilot. You have no reason to be scared of the R22. It has a main- and tail rotor and the laws of Newton and Co apply as well. I will take a few houres untill your hover is as stable as it is in the 300 right now but that is it. Your reflexes to the "Low rpm warning system" in the 22 will need to develop also. But the only way to lern to fly is to fly.