UCL Bans Military Recruitment

[RBuzzer]

Im completely outraged. Shame on you UCL for letting this happen.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=527848&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

and from the morons themselves:

http://www.uclunion.org/general/downloads/notices/troopsoutofucl.doc

:mad:

RBuzzer.

[PTT]

Bunch of idiot students.

[Cyclone733]

Good to see that Slavonic and Eastern European Studies and History of Art courses still leave people with enough time to spoil it for other people

[BEagle]

We used to get similar nonsense from certain Colleges when I was involved in UAS recruiting.

So, if we ever got a refusal, I used to write to the Student Union in question stating that "We regret your unwillingness to allow your students their own freedom of choice in a democratic society".

In those days it was often gay liberationists and the odd trendy lefty who tired to dictate their views to the Union; however, these days it is probable that the troublemakers come from other sections of what I hesitate to call 'society'.

[TMJ]

To be fair to UCL, it's not the College that has imposed a ban, but the SU which has banned to OTC from the Freshers' Fair(e - why they insist on the e in the motion is beyond me). Not unprecedented, if somewhat disappointing and possibly not representative of the views of the student body as a whole; the motion was passed at an AGM, apparently packed with left wing groups supported by the Islamic Society; a motion "twinning" with 2 Palestinian universities was also passed. As the meeting was only held on Wednesday no minutes are yet available online, so I'm going by the report on Educationet by a poster with the handle UCLleftie. the fact that it would be relatively easy to pack was no doubt highlighted by the fact the meeting was reconvened after an attempt at an AGM in Feb was inquorate.

My point is don't tar the college or all of its students with the same brush as the politically active minority.

[ProfessionalStudent]

What a bunch of pinko-leftie, sandal-wearing, tofu-eating w:mad:s.

Proposer:

Sham Rajyaguru SSEES

Seconders:

Edward Hood History
Rachel Page SSEES
Tom Elliot SSEES
Arabel Luscombe SSEES
Alex Jordan History
Sara Hall Hebrew & Jewish St.
Craig Griffiths German
Simon Bull Philosophy
Maggie Gray History of Art
Michael Barnett SSEES

Shame on you all. I hope you never need to depend on any of HM Forces personnel for your very existance, for I fear they will leave you to your fate.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Don't take it too seriously. It is just the immature posturing of youth in their first experience of intelectual freedom. Remember that the Oxford Union voted just before WW2 that under no circumstances would they ever fight for King or Country. A few years later they helped save the World!

[BEagle]

So, proposed by someone studying at the School of Slavonic and East European Studies.

And supported by 4 other SSEES students, 2 reading History, 1 reading History of Art, 1 reading Hebrew and Jewish studies, 1 reading philosophy and 1 reading German.

You would have thought that at least some of them would have understood the concept of democracy and the right of free expression.....

[Muppet Show]

...you would also have hoped that these supposedly educated individuals would be able to state their edict in grammatically correct english. Let's hope that the remaining student body is aware that this pathetic bunch has taken their name in vain with a rather feeble and ill-educated decision; perhaps they can educate Mr Rajyaguru on the use of the apostrophe while they're at it?

BEagle's comment is spot on; the irony of a lefty SU banning free speech is priceless!

[charliegolf]

Pro Studewrote:

Shame on you all. I hope you never need to depend on any of HM Forces personnel for your very existance, for I fear they will leave you to your fate.

Happily of course, he's quite wrong. As another thread shows, our servicemen and women are a cut above the wankers referred to here.

Long may that continue.

CG
(who at 51, is in awe of what our young service personnel do day in, day out in our name)

[bvcu]

looking at the way youngsters generally think, will probably have the opposite effect !!! By voting to ban they've probably made it 'cool' , so probably will help recruitment !!!

[A2QFI]

Same sort of carp at Manchester Uni and UMIST 15 years ago; we got round it somehow and finished up with a fine bunch of students, several of whom have gone on to worthwhile careers in the RAF, despite the petty snivelling and obstruction of their SU at the time

[Ewan Whosearmy]

They lost me at:

As such, Officer Training Corps cadets constitute a reserve military force which along with other reserve forces, enable the government to engage in a more aggressive foreign policy, deploying its active forces abroad rather than needing to employ active forces in national defense

Who do they think our men and women in Afghanistan are fighting? Do they not believe that AQ is a threat to national security, and that as such our presence in Afghanistan is a matter 'of national defence'?

Numpties.

[muppetofthenorth]

Being a current UAS student, such rules are not surprising.

When recruiting during Fresher's Week, we're not allowed inside any of the SU buildings, haven't been for years.

[Fareastdriver]

The SU is obviously more than happy to keep punching out legions of check-out girls, white van drivers, benefit dependants, which is all their qualifications entitle them to.

[Cheeks]

Forgive the intrusion from a long time lurker, but;

I recognise the name 'Sham Rajyaguru' as an ex-sea cadet who used to frequent the forums at aircadetcentral.net to inject socialist ramblings...

[RobinXe]

Good to see the proponents of this movement are all availing themselves of the basket-weaving courses at UCL. Heaven forfend that they should require an understanding of politics!

[shaun2985]

Lurker here for a long time... and a UCL student too. Also had a great time on ULAS for the three years I was there.

The only reason the motion got passed is because of SWP/Stop-the-War collusion with a sympathetic chairperson. Basically, a lot of the opposers to this motion walked out because they got pissed off at the conduct of the meeting.

Rest assured, liberal-minded students at UCL are working to revoke this piece of Union bollocks that appeases to the far right.

[WillDAQ]

This is a battle played out across many universities in the UK, more normally with respect to involvement of the defence industry in terms of funding. (UCLU already seem to have passed a motion to do this, but so far UCL have told them to f*** off...)

What you tend to find is such motions are unsuccessful as engineering and science students (who normally couldn't give a damn about student politics) are capable of mobilising large numbers of people quickly.

I know of one example (not at Bristol) where such a motion was introduced by stealth. The faculty of engineering students were able to raise hundreds of students within a couple of hours who marched on the meeting and 'made their displeasure felt'.

Certainly there's a general feeling that such students will not stand for pathetic time wasting lefties with too much spare time getting in the way of their lives.

More generally when these things sneak through you'll find that the silent of majority of students will move to oppose the supporters on an overwhelming scale.

Sadly large parts of the UCLU site seem to be suffering some sort of overload/denial of service attack at the moment so I can't look into this in more detail.

[dirty_bugger]

Sorry guys...it called democracy.

If you get the votes, etc...........they win...its crap but that the way it is!

[biddedout]

Muppetofthenorth

Being a current UAS student, such rules are not surprising.
Then recruiting during Fresher's Week, we're not allowed inside any of the SU buildings, haven't been for years.

Have you considered the fact that since you are now paying for your education directly, more than ever before, you have a Contract with the University, NOT the SU student committee. If you are ‘banned’ from part of the University for attempting to carry out normal and lawful student activities then you should take it up with the University authorities. Start with the informal grievance process and don’t hesitate to go to the formal level if necessary.

If the University authorities will not support you, then please copy their responses here for taxpayer scrutiny.

[muppetofthenorth]

Apologies, I should have worded my response more clearly:

We have been prohibited from recruiting on SU property.


I say 'have been' because there is now a member of the UOTC who is a newly elected official in the Union who has pledged to change this.

[Wensleydale]

When I was a student in the 1970s, the SU's constitution was geared up to allow a minority of left wing "activists" to pass motions in the name of the students at the University. However, the engineering faculty attended a meeting of the union mob handed (easily outnumbering the "Black Lesbian Street Theatre against the Bomb Brigade") and voted free beer to be available for the Engineering Building every Friday night for a year at union expense.

Perhaps the UAS/OTC etc could do the same one day.....?

[VinRouge]

Same thing happened whilst I was on UAS. Filthy lefty sandal wearing hippies would ban the OTC/UAS from recruiting due to policy on homosexuals serving.

All that happened was we set up shop on the main street directly outside the freshers fair anyway; the fuss and commotion the filthy commie toerags used to make did nothing but promote recruitment of the "right sort" to the UAS anyway!!!

[effortless]

This sort of thing has been going on since the fifties. They are students, what else do you expect?

[Sham Rajyaguru]

;).....................................................:roll eyes:

[TheInquisitor]

.................................................. ...

An excellent argument, Sham.... :hmm: this is obviously what we can expect from our 'great' institutions nowadays.

So, let's hear your case. What do you have to say for yourself? Or don't you have the balls..?

[OCDave]

The point of a feshers fayer is for the students of the given university to go along and see what clubs etc. are available to them. Why should one club be punished and not others? I'm sure that more people would be interested in UOTC/UAS than the 'extreem frisbee' club? I know i would be.:}

[Fg Off Max Stout]

As the proposer of the motion and, I presume, a believer in the democracy of student politics perhaps you should respond with words, not smilies.

Your assertions are gravely offensive to many, and your understanding of the role of both regular and reserve forces is flawed. It is safe to assume that your views are not shared by the student body as a whole, as the main participants in student politics have always been the lefty apprentice scargillites, trotskyists, anarchists, crusties etc and rarely, if at all, the moderates or right wingers. I anticipate that your, and the Union's actions, will be an embarrassment to the university, especially at this time.

Like many lefty student agitators before, you probably think you are a big fish in the safe little pond of university life. Unfortunately, you don't know how deep that pond is yet. If you ever expose yourself to the real world, you may be in for a shock.

[Samuel]

As he's 84 he's probably still on English 101.:D

[Edward Hood History]

Leave Sham alone you boolies. History will prove once again that war is rong and achieves nothing but suffering and sadness.:mad:

[noregrets]

This has got to be a wind-up!

Edward Hood History - your grasp of spelling and punctuation appalls me. Stop messing about on here and get yourself an education such that you stand a fighting chance of composing a reasonable CV.

Sham Rajyaguru - the floor is yours. Justify your wretched posture, you pathetic little man/woman.

[Chalkstripe]

I was also at UCL from 1986 - 1990 (nothing wrong with my maths - I enjoyed my 2nd year so much that I decided to do it again).

OTC/UAS etc were banned from recruiting at the Freshers Fair then as well - didn't seem to hold back the applications.

As is so often the case a very small number of pathetic mewling lapdogs have a loud yap and seem to get their way - the vast majority of students realise that they are spouting complete political b0ll0x and ignore them, and are generally too busy drinking beer, getting laid and having fun to bother stopping them.

The Rugby, and Hockey clubs were always staunch bastions of right wing values, and brave was the idiot that attempted to sell copies of socialist worker to them (yes, they did try).

CS

[Tigs2]

Does anybody know the origin of the name Sham Rajyaguru or is it Shambles Rogeredaguru. I.e country of origin and if it is a name that is closely linked to any particular leaning towards any particular religion. I really think the fact that he was a sea cadet should be fed to the local press, whom I am sure will cover this. I bet the lefty members of the SU would love to know that he was/pretended to be a Sea Cadet.

[Cheeks]

It's a tamil name, no?

[Whenurhappy]

Sham and Edward,

Presuming, for the moment, your bona fides, as a well educated chap (BSc, MSc(hons) MPhil (Cantab) etc) I can assure you that war is rarely 'rong'. It is, however, a lot of fun.

[Samuel]

Sham is, surely, the diminutive of 'Shambolic', which would seem to me to be about right.

[Tigs2]

I am not sure the motion will last for long. Go to this page and read some of the comments by UCL students/members. You MUST GO HERE ANYWAY! go to post 39 from Capt Planet to see the best Avtar on the internet:D:D:D:D

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=538005&page=2

[Roland Pulfrew]

Also somewhat stunning to see the UCL SU are unable to spell "ammendment" (sic) correctly! What are we wasting our taxes on if the officials of the Union cannot even spell? :ugh:

Edited to add:

D-d-d-damn!;)

[Mud Clubber]

It's Sham RajyAGURU. ADMIN GURU!!!!

[nowherespecial]

Sorry to be late on the thread but as a member of the Forces and an Alumni of UCL, I'm ashamed and have written to the Union and the Head of the College to complain. It won't do any good mind you, but it makes me feel better!
Bloody students, no respect etc etc....

[Miles_JAN]

Cheeks rides again! Long time no see.

I seem to remember Bradford not allowing UAS's to recruit from there. Not a great loss, frankly. Suprisingly few interested parties...and in a place where caucasians are the ethnic minority, I can't say i've ever felt much more uncomfortable in a uniform...

[A2QFI]

Sham is 84 years old so he/she/it is probably demented, dribbling a lot and incontinent

[Wyler]

A little off thread.

Don't underestimate the impact these idiots are having.

I have just resigned as a school Governor, after 5 years, because of stupidity like this.

At our last meeting the Head Teacher proposed that we sanction some sponsorship money for a 10 year old pupil who had just reached the UK National Finals of athletics. This was following a request from his parents who thought the school backing would add to his morale and determination.

There followed a 30 minute heated debate.

Those who did not want to sponsor him?

His PE teacher (:eek:) because, I quote ' He is Middle Class and therefore undeserving'. Asked to explain he then said 'I have seen his dads car, there's tons of money there, we should not touch him'.

Who backed him up? The Local Education Authority Rep. Her reason? 'He is not disabled therefore it is unfair to those that are'.

The third member who complained? Another retired teacher who stated 'This is sport, that means winners and losers, that is not fair, I will not support this boy'.

There you have it. Those who say they want equality for all actually wanted to punish a small boy because of his fathers percieved wealth. I threw all my toys out of the cot, along with 2 others. We got the sponsorship but only after we were forced to agree to have it put in the minutes that any further sponsorship would be for disabled/disadvantaged kids involved in non sporting activities.:*:mad::mad:

The great British education system. That is where a lot of these stupid lefties end up.

[Tigs2]

Wyler
A truly depressing story
what was the response of the oxygen thieves at the meeting when you 'escalated'? Do the lefties know why you resigned? If so what have they said?

[Wyler]

When confronted they folded like cards. The LEA Rep was horrified to be confronted. She is obviously used to working in a PC World at County Hall where her biased views are the norm. She retreated with a very red face. The PE teacher was not so much bothered by me but more bothered by the glares he was getting from the Head. His final retort was that he was looking out for the disadvantaged (as if we are not!). As to the other retired teacher, she just glared and refused to comment any further.

As to my resignation. I am still awaiting a reply from the Chair but do not think anything will come of it. When it comes to the world of state education, you do not rock the boat, you go with the flow.

I am still on the Board at the local High School where, sadly, similar things happen but it is not so bad.

Here are a few other tasters for you:

No such thing as a badly behaved pupil, they are now officially classified as 'vulnerable'.

Any move to reduce class sizes to below 30 will lead to an automatic cut in the school budget.

Any child removed permanently from a school due to bad behaviour etc is 'entitled' to an education. Therefore, the school that expels them has to provide alternative education at its own expense. So here, in a rural part of the world, the school would have to provide a taxi to and from the other school, every day, and pay for it themselves. This has to be done no more than 6 days after the expulsion.

I could go on but it is too depressing (and not exactly Mil Air!!!).

The current system is broken and littered with extreme Left Wing PC gurus who are actively encouraged, indeed directed, by the Government.:*:mad:

[scribbler614]

Lest we conclude that all today's students are self-indulgent muppets, just been contacted by a union chap from Royal Holloway who tells me the London colleges as a whole had, only the night before this UCL shi1te, passed a motion expressing their support / appreciation for work of UK armed forces, and insisting many of them are disgusted with UCL. Perhaps there's hope for the nation yet.

[muppetofthenorth]

Further to Scribbler's comments, it's also worth noting that in just 4 days the facebook group set up in protest to the news has grown to over 3,200 members: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8295444126

And it's not the only group there, either.

The thread at TheStudentRoom, mentioned previously, keeps growing as well.

[For the record, I'm a student, I don't think I need say on which side of this argument I fall, being in the UAS also...]

[TANTALLON]

Weren't Blair, Brown, Straw, Hain and other members of our current "leadership" all tree-hugging CND-badge-wearing anarchists at one time? How things changed once they realised that there was a big wide trough out there into which they could bury their snouts.

Never fear, this current lot of "intellectuals" will follow the same path.

[GasFitter]

... that'll be UCL exercising their democratic rights!

[angels]

I'm not a student, merely a cynic.

Headlines such as 'Lefties ban the forces' are bound to get people's wick up. The very press that people slag off as being left wing carries the antics of these idiots because the press is largely right wing.

Scribbler and muppett rightly point out that all students are by no means like this lot. But where are the headlines highlighting their support for the forces?

You won't find them because it doesn't conform to the standard right wing view of students as portrayed by papers like the Torygraph, Mail, Sun etc.

[Sunray Minor]

TANTALLON,

Perhaps the examples you give, say less about those on the left-wing, and more about those who later reveal themselves to be on the right of centre?

All this gnashing of teeth over what is really a storm in a teacup, is very typical PPRUNE. All kinds of weird and whacky motions get put forward and agreed in the petty world of student politics, which isn't really any different from politics in general. Get over it. There are more important issues in the world today and I'm sure the UAS and the services in general are both big enough to weather such opposition.

[cornish-stormrider]

Climbing on soapbox.........

Ready??

I say we make university free, but a condition of entrance is say about two years in one of the forces, if they felt unable in all good concience to fight then we could make them medics.........or (rum, sodomy and the lash) matelots:E

after the 2 year point we offer them a wage to stay in or if they'd rather go off and play at education then the 2 years of service will have paid for it.

Think of how much better behaved they'd be and we would probably get a large uptake as they realised that despite all the ****e we've been through/going through/about to go through (delete as appropriate) the services are still a good laugh with fantastic mates and real skills relevant to the real world.

Those that went on to engineering would have a real grounding in what was needed and what the kit had to put up with.........

Vote for me..........

Oh and Tigs 2, calling me a brownnoser really does a disservice to the spineless career monkeys in whitehall, I feel they might get offended that you think an erk like me is up to the same grade as themselves. Made I larf though.



Respect to the liney is due, coz he serviced your jet/cab/big shiny target etc and if you buy him the odd beer when on det he functions an awful lot better.


Bloody Students

[TMJ]

In my opinion the sort of people who tie up SU mtgs with this sort of motion take student politics, and, by extension, themselves, far too seriously. It would be better all round if this storm had stayed in its teacup and got voted down when the seemingly apathetic majority realised the nonsense was going on, rather than the national press stroking the egos of those involved.

You can't imagine Mad Cap'n Tom (http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/mostpopular.var.2106024.mostcommented.pirate_becomes_new_stu dent_union_president.php) going in for this sort of thing...

[whiz]

What a bunch of pinko-leftie, sandal-wearing, tofu-eating w:mad:s.

Proposer:

Sham Rajyaguru SSEES

Seconders:

Edward Hood History
Rachel Page SSEES
Tom Elliot SSEES
Arabel Luscombe SSEES
Alex Jordan History
Sara Hall Hebrew & Jewish St.
Craig Griffiths German
Simon Bull Philosophy
Maggie Gray History of Art
Michael Barnett SSEES

Shame on you all. I hope you never need to depend on any of HM Forces personnel for your very existance, for I fear they will leave you to your fate.


My bold above.
No they wont, and thats what sets forces personnel apart from their civilian couterparts. We have a sense of duty and loyalty that none of the above could ever hope to attain. Lets hope they do come to depend on us, perhaps it would open their eyes a little.

Ive just realised that I've written the above as if Im still serving, not someone who left in the late 1990s, I suppose it never leaves you :uhoh:

[spaniel]

Back in the 90's I was a QFI on Yorkshire UAS and was envolved in recruiting at the Freshers Fair at Sheffield Poly - I think they call it something grand like Uni of Hallam now, but it still looks like a Poly! Anyway, the right-on SU President refused to let us set up our stall unless we hung a big banner behind us which she had prepared specially for us earlier. It said "This Organisation is not an equal opportunies employer!!" due to the military stance on homosexuals at the time.

By the end of the afternoon the Rugby Club, the Hockey club, the Football club (male and female!), the Fencing society, sub-aqua club and the Chess Club (!!!??) had all come over to ask where we got the banner and 'could they have one?'. we sent them all off to ask the SU President who got decidedly grumpy and almost burned her kaftan in discust!!

How we laughed!:O

[muppetofthenorth]

Just as an update on the situation, the AGM at which the motion was brought and the General Secretary of the Union have both been suspended.

The ban is no longer UCLU policy.

[Kengineer-130]

Fine, lets disband the armed forces and the police ( who suffer much the same treatment as the armed forces regarding pay and conditions in exchange for the largley superb service they provide) and see how long it takes before the country is under seige by various terrorist groups, and see how long it takes for the government ( not worthy of the name), the idiotic, immature, ill-educated students who proposed this policy, and the general populous to realize that they do in fact quite like having people willing to sacrafice anything from thier time to thier lives to watch over them, and who indeed through the ages have protected thier very right to exercise thier ill-chosen right of free speech...

National Service dosn't sound like such a bad idea at times like this :ugh:.. And I'm only 27.:ugh:

[Tigs2]

Cornish

cor blimey!, that was a different thread, a different day and nothing to do with this. If i disagree with something you have said, I am not one to continue it, hold on to it, or carry it on to another thread.;)

[WhiteOvies]

This sort of thing has happened for many years. Having experienced it myself we got round it by being invited by the University itself, rather than the Union. The seniors of the University were very supportive. The stands (URNU, OTC and UAS) were set up just round the corner from the Union but not actually inside it, allowing freedom of choice for students without pandering to student politics.

The local UAS subsequently caused a bit of trouble by going to the LGB stand(Lesbian, Gay and Bi not its mil air meaning) and asking to book some lesbians for a party! :D:=

[muppetofthenorth]

Just heard the latest: following a disciplinary hearing last night, the motion, and suspended officer, has been reinstated.

The ban is now official UCLU policy.

[AdanaKebab]

Miles_Jan,

This is not a new phenomenon.

I went to Bradford Uni for my Masters in 1997. The Gay and Lesbian society asked the Union to stop the Armed Forces Careers teams coming to the University from that year (citing the fact that the forces discriminated against them) - the Union agreed with them. I was forced to travel to Middlesborough for interviews. My letters to the Union and University hierarchy fell on deaf ears.

Also don't be so fast to assume there will be little uptake for careers in the forces from Bradford Uni. The Peace Studies Dept (don't be fooled by the title) is world reknown and covers subjects such as Security Studies / International Politics at graduate and post graduate level. (although the RAF will not recognise my MA for seniority - moan over)

This is a good alternative to the War Studies Dept at Kings College, London.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Every wedge has its thin end:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7311917.stm

Catherine Brennan, a teacher from Croydon, south London, who is presenting the motion, said recruiters use information which does not allow young people to make informed choices.
"They are too young to vote, too young to drink, too young to drive, but they are considered old enough to sign up for years in the armed forces without being fully aware of what they are signing themselves up for in their lives," she said.


Another teacher, Chris Kelly, from Lambeth, south London, said: "The Ministry of Defence has got a programme for distributing information to every secondary school. They run programmes across the country and send army personnel to talk to young people in schools. "These are often in areas of high levels of unemployment."


I shan't comment until after I've calmed down.

[cargosales]

It's funny that it was down to various interviewers to bring out the fact that Catherine Brennan is a god bothering, self-confessed pacifist.

Not that that would have any influence on her of course :ugh:

[snapper41]

First, the use of the word 'propaganda' is entirely inappropriate by the NUT (when describing Forces recruiting). Propaganda is used to further a cause or doctrine, such as Marxism or Nazism (for example), not recruiting.

Secondly, does the NUT practice what it preaches? Let's investigate...well, I'm sure you've all seen the recruiting adverts for teachers on the TV and in the press - the 'use your head; teach' ones. Do any of those adverts state that, if you become a teacher, that you may be subjected to assault by the pupils (physical or verbal); that drugs and weapons are prevalent in schools; that if you try to control your unruly pupils, that you will likely be charged yourself; and that there is a good chance that you will leave the profession within 3 years because of ill-health, stress or assault? Has the NUT done anything to make sure that these facts are properly represented? Errrr, no.

Thirdly, last week the Training & Development Agency for Schools (a govt dept that organises teacher training) sent out a letter to all teachers who have left in the past few years, encouraging them to come back; there is a staffing crisis in schools. The letter cites improvements in the job, such as more pay and better hours. One John Illingworth, who resigned as a head teacher 3 years ago due to mental illness bought on by stress, addressed the NUT Conference yesterday stating that the letter is 'damned lies; we shouldn't encourage people into teaching on the basis of lies because, if we do, half of them will leave in the first 3 years'.

NUT - get your own house in order first.

[noregrets]

Surely recruiting in areas of high unemployment is a good thing?

Excellent training, a huge variety of vocations and trades to choose from, skills for life, worldwide travel, pretty damn good pay and accommodation, plus all the intangibles - self-reliance, confidence, discipline etc etc - the list goes on.

Sounds like a good thing to me!

[charliegolf]

GBZ and Snapper:

Agree about Brennan, who presents as a leftie tree hugging lezzer; but did hear a much more balanced bloke on R4 who made the point (like Snapper's) that these kids are currently treated like sh1t wrt pay, rotations, healthcare and housing. That ain't in the recruiters' spiel.

Noregrets: agreed.

CG

PS had the Royal Welsh at my primary school fete last summer. Kids loved it, and the lads rigged it for me (the Head) to win the assault course time trial!

NUT taking an absolute kicking on the 'have your say' page.