Air Ambulance in UK

[bosski]

Anybody heard anything about the new HEMS contract at Bristol e.g. company, a/c type etc

Cheers

[Helinut]

The rumour I heard was that the contract was/has gone to Sloane with a 109 Power. However, there seems to have been all sorts of pauses and changes of venue. As yet, I believe the operation has not started.

There have been changes in the Ambulance Trusts in this part of the world. New "trainsets" may be thought to be a good idea, but the realities of fundraising through a charitable air ambulance trust may not fit in with the wished/desired timescales of the new super-ambulance trust. Two of the counties covered by the new Ambulance Trust (Great Western) already have perfectly sensible air ambulances with an established fundraising setup.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Two of the counties covered by the new Ambulance Trust (Great Western) already have perfectly sensible air ambulances with an established fundraising setup.
Agreed. I'm fascinated to see how they'll sell the concept to the people of Wiltshire. How does this sound: take away a HEMS service based in near-enough the geographical centre of the county, operating between the hours of 0830 and 0245 (allowing time to check the aircraft/ put it to bed) at a cost of 30% of the running costs of the police heli (yet using up to 50% of the flying hours). Replace it with an aircraft based below a ridgeline to the west of the county which operates daylight hours only (although it might be able to extend to night landings, albeit only at suitably-lit hospital sites. NOT HEMS sites as at present) and covers 2 other counties as well. The person who can spin this little story successfully should be able to work for any PR agency in the world afterward. :yuk:

[psyclic]

Tthat person might be an associate of the PR company used by an aggressive HEMS charity, whose "CEO" is actually a free lance fund raiser (paid by the hour), whose wife is that very same associate of the forementioned PR company.

That HEMS charity apparently managed to persuade an ambulance trust to use one of their helicopters in preference to the two other neighbouring HEMS charities (who were not even included in the process) in a recent Midlands upheaval involving the relocation of a previous HEMS provider.

So I suppose anything is possible down Bristol way!

[quichemech]

It will be interesting to see where they base it!

Lulsgate won't be any good unless the machine is full IFR, besides the airport don't appear to be very keen on GA.:rolleyes:

So it'll be Filton with the Police then, not easy cramming another machine in that old hangar!

[Grand Ops]

Chaps, this is all speculation, viewpoints etc.....but does anyone have any hard evidence....some facts......or sensible ideas???

Alas, you just all seem to be putting more "R" into PPRUNE.....................

I think Bosski may have been looking for a good answer to what is a GOOD QUESTION....!

Anyone else "KNOW" anything...?

:ugh:

[Russell Sprout]

Do we have any 109 HEMS drivers? I was looking at one the other day and couldn't see why anyone would want one..... Low rotor blades, instrument panal obstructing forward/ downward vision, small low cabin, tricycle wheeled undercarriage (nightmare to land in the mud), and an exposed tail rotor, o.k it goes 10 knots faster than other contenders but that would make for a saving of about 20 seconds on average journey time.

[psyclic]

according to the press releases the 109 was "chosen" by EMAS to replace the County cab at East Midlands as it gave an "improved service", compared to the 135 or 902, as a HEMS machine!

( the improvement, apparently, was that it was faster and could carry two patients!)

[Helinut]

If you want facts, wait for the press release. The site had moved to the Weston-super-Mare Helicopter museum, the last time I heard. :uhoh:

However, it hasn't started yet................

[psyclic]

Good old press releases. Excellent way to get the facts!

Different area I know but just to give an example:

"The new Augusta 109 helicopter, called Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Rutland Air Ambulance, will be quicker and bigger and would be operated for longer flying hours and in worse weather conditions."

[nodrama]

Read latest issue of Police Aviation News (Mar 08), Avon AA is now confirmed a B0105 leased from BAS. No mention of location but most likely Filton or Weston. So what happened to the Sloanes 109?

[Grand Ops]

Like our colleagues have said before...."good old press releases"..........you can always rely on them for the truth.

Your question "what happended to Sloane?", well the last time i saw them, they were at Sywell doing quite well, dont you know!

Do we really trust the media to report the truth??????

I think i will wait for the official press release myself.

:=

[nodrama]

I'm sure Sloane is doing just fine. I only asked that if the PAN article was to believed, what had happened to the 109 that Sloanes had ear-marked for the Avon contract?

We will see, eh? :rolleyes:

[MINself]

I heard this astonishing rumour recently that a patient of the East Mids AA and their new A109 had to be transported by road ambulance as they couldn't fit on the stretcher due to their height!!.... Does the A109 have a particularly short cabin?

[winchman]

Just been told the same thing, how the hell can you introduce a new aircraft thats not fit for role? Just wondering what happens to patients with traction splints fitted....

[medihell]

So does that mean that if you are over 6 ft tall and require the services of an airambulance in the east midlands area remember to ask the 999 operator for the lincs and notts or yorkshire airambulance to attend!!!!

[What Limits]

Possibly because the A109 patient is loaded across the cabin rather than lengthways in the MD902 or EC135

[medihell]

Somebody better tell the comms units to revise there protocol.
A airway
B breathing
C circulation
L length of patient :rolleyes:

[victor papa]

The 109 patient lies behind the co-pilot to the rear bulkhead along the LH sliding door,thus also lenghtwise. The 5th fuel tank must be removed to lengthen the cabin to accommodate 5.8ft stretcher on a box type assembly. Guess it is ok if your averaged size patient is 5.6ft weighing 60-80kgs. We are now getting a 109 shortly so we will see first hand how it works as our average patients(other than incubator cases) weigh 80 to 140kgs with the length to go with it. We currently often have to lift the shortened dr seat at the patients head in the Squirrel so do not know how it will work in the 109. Will let you know

[MINself]

Possibly because the A109 patient is loaded across the cabin rather than lengthways in the MD902 or EC135

I see, but the cross cabin dimensions of the A109 E Power are 1.62 m, as per the AW website, which is fairly limiting unless the majority of the stretcher patients are expected to be pygmies! or does the East Mids aircraft have the bulging doors that give an few extra inches?

Thanks, Victor Papa just read your post, this sounds life a real faff if you're having to alter the internal configuration for taller patients.

[Bertie Thruster]

Patient was 6ft 2 in. Didnt go in ambulance. Went in the responders car!

902 has room for 8ft 6in. patient. (6ft 6in, if 2nd medic has to attend to the airway)

(Lincs/Notts was available but Amb Control thought it was a Derbyshire postcode.)


apparently (according to the launch day press release) one of the reasons the Augusta was better was that it could take "an additional patient", compared, presumably, to the local 902's or 135's !

[Helinut]

What other profession tells as many porkies as journos?

Helicopter Sales Executives will come close :p

[heli1]

Helidata has twice run stories on the proposed Avon air ambulance.....it was last due to launch in May,based at Filton but there are funding issues and an argument with the Wilts members who resent efforts to take money raised for their air ambulance to fund the new one.
Helidata also confirmed that an independent fund raiser based in Northants was employed to seek sponsorship but doesn't appear to have been very succesful.
I am not aware that the contract has moved from Sloane to BAS...seems odd given that the Bo105s are going out of service.The last I heard it was still an A109.

[Helinut]

Just an observation Heli1,

but if money is short, a Bo 105 will be a lot cheaper than a shiny new 109.

When Thames Valley started up they began with a 109. After a while they changed to a Bo 105, to save money. I believe they still use that type, although an EC135 is planned soon.

It is presumably more difficult to raise money for an air ambulance that does not actually exist.

[nodrama]

seems odd given that the Bo105s are going out of service.


Still got a year left, time enough to get the contract up and running with a Bolkow and then upgrade to a 135.


Lots of speculation in this thread, and same from the industry media. Interesting to note though that no one has actually confirmed that the contract will be a 109 from Sloanes, even though the paramedics were conducting training with a 109 at Filton last year.

[Darren999]

The A109 we have has an attachment point at the rear middle of the cabin, so if the patient is over 6'0 we can load them diagnaly. We can also swivel the co pilot seat and move it forward.This also helps if we need to load 2 patients. Providing the dual controls are no installed.
I can see the pro and cons for the A109. For our program it works well with Inner Hospital Transfers, and organ harvest flights. Awful in muddy fields!
Just my thoughts...:ok:

[bell222]

just noticed on the derbyshire rutland & leicestershire air ambulance website that they are using G-MEDS A109 so if this is the case what machine is being used by warks & northants air ambulance. G-MEDS was theirs & G-WNAA was the spare wonder if this has been changed

thanks :ok:

[KK]

The 109 earmarked for Bristol has gone to Rutland, Sloanes couldnt wait anylonger. BAS will be providing the A/C for Bristol.
The individual who is in charge of setting the Bristol air ambulance does not know what he is doing. He is messing everybody around and people are getting fed up with him. GWAS have got thier eye on the money from the Wiltshire air ambulnce, and this is how they are going to part fund the Avon air ambulance for it to get off the ground.

[Bertie Thruster]

Welcome to the thread, KK. First post after 8 years of lurking on PPRUNE!

[Helinut]

KK,

I had heard that the GWAS were trying to do what you suggest. However, there are some problems with that.

The money given by the good folk of Wiltshire was given to a charitabke trust quite clearly set up to provide an air ambulance for the good folk of Wiltshire. The air ambulance trust is not controlled or owned by the NHS whichever set of never-ending management reorganisations of that moribund organisation is currently in place.

It seems to me that if the newly created Great Western Ambulance Service wants to set up and run an air ambulance it needs to do one of two things:

- pay for it itself;
- get someone to set up a new charitable trust with the goal of fundraising for the new activity

AS you indicated, I believe someone has moved from another air ambulance trust or setup and promised to raise the funds for the GW air ambulance. I had also heard that there had been lots of promises but precious little action so far.

Whoever is involved in this new venture may well expect some resistance to the idea of taking money from another charity just like that. I am defintely no expert but I believe that charities have trustees who manage the money on behalf of the charity. I would be surprised if they just rolled over, and handed over the money.........

It would be like Cancer Research giving all their funds to Green Peace.

[206 jock]

Indeed, Helinut is correct. Trustees have a rubbish job: it's not paid,yet they can go to jail if things go wrong. It sounds to me like the Articles of Association of the charity state 'for the county of Wiltshire' and until these are changed, that's all the funds can be used for.

I - for my sins - am a trustee of another Air Ambulance trust, who set out to raise funds in another county with a view to launching a second machine in this county once enough funds had been raised...in that county. We're very nearly there after just 12 months!

[Bertie Thruster]

It all seems to get very confusing when an ambulance trust becomes part of an air ambulance charity!

Bit like if the MCA ran the RNLI!

www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/news/headlines/display.var.2225440.0.0.php?act=complaint&cid=1469355

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Thanks for the link, Bertie - good to see the topic is being kept alive in Wilts.

I've heard quite a few opinions about Ambulance Authorities which get themselves involved in the running of Air Ambulance charities. Same goes for trusts which take the wages of the ambulance staff out of the charity funds. Couldn't possibly comment myself, mind.

[206 jock]

Thud,

"Same goes for trusts which take the wages of the ambulance staff out of the charity funds."

Care to expand on that?

[KK]

Its fact that the air ambulance charity in wiltshire pay for the paramedics wages. The Great western Ambulance Service, who are the trustees of the Wiltshire charity are well aware of this and are happy with the arrangement because no one has challanged them.

[Helinut]

KK,

I am not in a position to challenge you on this, but I rather thought that a trustee of a charity had to be a person rather than a limited company or a chunk of the NHS.

It is quite cheeky if the air ambo pays for the paramedics - I am pretty sure there was some sort of central agreement that paramedics would be paid by the NHS - is that your understanding too?

[KK]

Yes your right. What happened in wiltshire was that the old trustees agreed that the charity would the paramedics wages for only six month and that it would be paid back. in those six months the great western ambulance trust took set up a umbrella charity with the wiltshire air ambulance appeal trust under it. They then changed the trustees and have not honoured that agreement. I believe now they are hoping that it folds and then they take charge of the money and that is how they are going to help to finance the bristol air ambulance. Mind you that is only my thoughts!!!!!

[What Limits]

Hmmmm.... The Charity Commission (http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/)might be interested in this....

[Bertie Thruster]

I think there were, and still are, also odd goings on with the air ambos in your old neck of the woods, What Limits!


eg a fund raising 'organisation' to harvest the cash off the willing punters with this cash then passed onto the 'charity' that runs the air ambos. Strangely though, the trustees of this charity are exactly the same people as the board of directors of the local NHS ambulance trust!! :eek:

[Thud_and_Blunder]

206 Jock,

Apologies for not replying straight away; my shift pattern doesn't always allow me time in the evenings to go online.

I think the replies that have come in since will adequately answer the question you asked me. Food for thought, eh?

[nodrama]

Word on the street is 1st week in June, Filton, EC135.

Will it, won't it, will it.........?

[nodrama]

The awaited press release

http://www.shephard.co.uk/rotorhub/Default.aspx?Action=745115149&ID=da7e5a2d-cc99-4c23-9a4b-fd5280acd77a :D

[Savoia]

Cornwall to Expand Air Ambulance Capacity

Cornwall Air Ambulance Trust has announced that it will have a second aircraft from the end of next year.

The charity has signed a contract with a new operator, Medical Aviation Services (MAS).

It comes into force from December 2014.

The charity said the new aircraft would be able to fly night time missions and would be able to fly further and carry more weight than the current helicopters.

Paula Martin, chief executive of the air ambulance trust, said: "We understand that there are emergency missions we're not getting to at the moment.

"This is mainly because we're already doing another job somewhere else.

"We can see that the need and demand [for a second aircraft] is there and we've been working towards that goal."

Last year the Duchess of Cornwall officially opened the charity's new headquarters at Newquay Airport, following a £1m grant from the European Union.

Cornwall's air ambulance has been flying since 1987.

BBC News - Cornwall Air Ambulance to have second helicopter (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-21923979)

[jayteeto]

Fly further and carry more weight? Genuine question: how much more and how much further does a 902 do? Nice to see MAS are sorting clearance for night missions as well as Bond. If two companies are doing the work it may speed the civil servants up.

[Hughes500]

Seeing as the average mission is not life threatening cant see why they need 2 !

[md 600 driver]

jayeeto

where does it say its a exploder i thought mas have got into 135s now

[griffothefog]

As a long time pilot of the Kernow AA, I would suggest someone audits the trust before this is cleared to go... :=

[HeliStudent]

Please excuse my ignorance on this matter but I wanted to ask, why is it that the government have no problem funding police helicopter operations and leave ambulance helicopters to raise their own money?

I don't want to put down police helicopters for a second but can I ask, are they bagging murderers and rapists most of the time or are they mainly involved in supporting the arrest of petty thieves and people growing cannabis under their roofs?

Last question, could local councils or regional authorities hold a referendum asking the people of each county whether they would prefer to have their taxes spent on supporting a police helicopter or an ambulance helicopter?

[jayteeto]

MD600, they have a 135 now, so how can a 135 improve a 135?
I am not stirring, it is a genuine question as they are stating it to the press. I am experienced (3000) on 135 but know little about the 902 or 145. What aircraft will they be using?

[PANews]

It is assumed that they will be providing an MD902 because that is what they [MAS] operate now. It mentions two but does not yet explain what 'two' is. Is that 2 aircraft 24/7/365 or some other permutation? It may simply be a guaranteed aircraft during downtime [but I think not].

There are no NEW 902s available with an enhanced spec before 2015 [if then].

There may be other second hand 902s available for the company to acquire.

SAS/PAS/MAS has ordered AW169s but they are significantly larger than most current air ambulances in the UK.

I would expect it will come obvious in time for the launch day.:)

[Hughes500]

SARWanabe

Well I fly in Cornwall teaching people regularly so hear and see what goes on, when it is called out to a suspected broken leg on a rugby pitch less than a few miles from Treliske you have to wonder.
That and base both ac in the same hanger ?
Their admin costs now outweigh what the helicopter actually costs, suppose griffo knows best

[Thomas coupling]

Hughes: whoa there boy! Admin costs outgrowing running costs of chopper - I think not. A HEMS outfit costs circa 1.2 - 1.5 mil/year....

Don't label a HEMS outfit because of one low level response task. Cornwall is MASSIVE and 2 choopers would easily provide a better service.

The public has spoken, the public are comfortable putting their hands in their pockets for a dedicated 2 ship HEMS operation. God bless public opinion.
[If it had been government driven, the existing cab would probably have been traded in for an older model and limited to 'x' hours per year!].

Don't ever knock the HEMS setup in the UK when it is charity controlled - it is a reflection of joe average and their desires.
[Addendum: With the exception of that alleged crooked operation called the child air ambulance outfit:*]

[MightyGem]

when it is called out to a suspected broken leg on a rugby pitch less than a few miles from Treliske
Hmm...I wish a helicopter had come and picked me up when I dislocated my elbow on Salisbury Plain, only a few miles by Landrover from the medical centre. :ugh:

[902Jon]

The Trust clearly has the money to fund a second aircraft. It has over the years built up a sizeable income through raising its profile and fantastic fundraising. You can't go into a shop in Cornwall without seeing one of their charity boxes by the till. The people of Cornwall are very proud of their Air Ambulance and are prepared to fund it.
The new HQ at Newquay is also very efficient by having the aircraft co-located with the Charity, which means corporate sponsors can get the tour and then be persuaded to put their hands in their pockets.
Also, and I quote, having visited last year, the hangar was designed to accommodate 2 EC145 size aircraft.
Best of luck to them I say. And don't forget - probably at least 3 more pilot jobs being created!

[Thomas coupling]

Parked next door to the Bristow SAR cabs no doubt:D

[Hughes500]

The charity was offered land for free within 1 mile of Treliske hospital. This would have saved the repositioning back and forward to Newquay which must be about .4 hours every time.
The head of the charity wanted to be at Newquay as there was an ILS there, thats fine but there isnt an ILS at Treliske so if you need to get to Newquay IFR then you aint going to get the patient to the hospital.
I dont have a problem with air ambulances but they are starting to go down the line of the primary first reponse to any call out. Lets remember it is about the " golden hour" we seem to be going down the avenue of having ever more sophisticated and expensive bits of kit going out to pick people up who's lives are not in danger.
As for having 2 helicopters in one place, why not do as Devon has done, have 2 one in the North one in the South. yes I know in Cornwall it would be East and West In fact it would be more efficient for the Eaglescott based Devon one to cover East Cornwall as well as N Devon,
In fact if we will have 4 helicopters covering less than 2 million people not a bad ratio, perhaps I should shut up as I live in the area so my chances of a free ride when i come off my mountain bike will be better than anywhere else in the country :)

[206 jock]

H500,

Why don't you get involved as a trustee, I bet they are always on the lookout for people willing to get involved. Then you can help provide the oversight that the trustee group provides.

Then you can ask the difficult questions (or be on the inside pissing out of the tent, rather than vice versa).

I have no idea if the Cornwall operation is good or bad. But sometimes what appears on the surface to be black or white is actually just a shade of grey.

[Thomas coupling]

206 jock: :D well said.

Whitehead: not completely accurate. Our Police/HEMS outfit was a victim of its outstanding success. We (in hindsight) took it that little bit too far and exchanged one police officer for a paramedic and proved that a paramedic could do the job of a police observer (TFO) AND still remain a paramedic. Flying a T1 meant we had no problems with carrying capacity. In fact we were the only Police or HEMS helicopter in GB that could carry 2 casualties and we did it on the odd occasion.
The problem with our success was that the Ambulance Authority realised they could lose future paramedics to the police world and the UEO's realised they were losing police officer (TFO) slots.
The service was wound down quietly and slowly and reverted to type (police ops) sadly for all involved.

Hughes: Be very very grateful you live not only in what for many, is the most beautiful part of England and Wales but your HEMS cover per head of population is probably the best in the world ;)

[Hughes500]

TC

You are dam right, but what worries me is that Cornwall is one of the poorest counties in the UK so long term can it afford 13 staff, a " glass hanger " and 2 helicopters.
Please dont get me wrong i am an ardent supporter of the service but am worreid it is going passed what it was originally designed for and hence will be unsustainable as machines and staff get ever more expensive. The ultimate one end will be having a chinook with full " doc and hospital in the back a la Afgan

[Geoffersincornwall]

Perhaps as the designer of the original modus operandi of the Cornwall AA I can enlighten you a little.

During the daytime (we are talking 1987) we had 17 emergency ambulances covering the county of Cornwall. At night this reduced to 11. Our problems were many but the main ones were:

1. Clinical - in that we only had 8 extended trained ambulance men (call them paramedics but that title didn't come until years later) so delivering that high level of skill countywide was only possible using the AA.
2. Logistical - when vehicles were sent on a call (all 999 calls had to be responded to in those days) the crew could be taken out of service for anything up to four hours given that our receiving hospitals were so few and located at Truro and Plymouth. During those four hours dealing with what may just be a broken finger or a nosebleed a patient in the now vacant area may suffer a heart attack or stroke. We met this challenge by having a three layered plan - a. HEMS style first responder b. secondary transfer in which the AA rendezvous with the road ambulance at a pre-surveyed site and delivers the patient to hospital leaving the road ambulance inside its normal area. c. tertiary inter-hosital transfer.

Chucking rocks at the AA for carrying low-level injuries has to be a cheap shot but one we expected and were not disappointed. People's ignorance of the realities of running an ambulance service has to be expected but once the situation has been explained most seemed to a accept that a rapid resolution of all 999 calls is the best all-round solution. You never know what the next call will be. The overall efficiency of the service as a whole was our design aim but I observe that this principle is nowadays often sacrificed to satisfy the rock-chuckers and give the AA charity a peaceful time even if this does not serve the public who finance the AA as well as it might.

G

[Hughes500]

Geoff

Not throwing rocks, just voicing my concern that the animal is going in a direction that might be come unsustainable ! You started with a BO 105 with a paramedic, relatively cheap to run. We are now going down IFR helicopters, flying at night with NVG's soon I presume, 2 helicopters glass hangers etc etc
I would hate to see it fail, as i think it is wonderful and actively support Devon's as that is where I live.

[Brilliant Stuff]

IMHO from what I have seen and heard I believe the Air Ambulance community could do with being more transparent this would go a long way of disprooving the some of the myths and experiences....

The politics don't help either.....

Just for the record I do financially support my local AA.

[HeliStudent]

whitehead06, thank you very much for your response.

Do you think there will ever be publicly funded air ambulances in the UK?

Also, given some of the recent comments, do you think it would be advisable for AA charities to voluntarily submit to annual public audits in order to encourage the supporters?

Do you ever see a time when AA and police ops could merge especially if the observer's role could be ground based by remotely operating the cameras etc. on the helicopter?

[Geoffersincornwall]

Point taken. It would seem that where an organisation relies on the word 'charity' that an even bigger word - POLITICS - goes along with it. You need a skin like a rhinoceros to work in those organisations and I found out early on that people that have made a small charitable/voluntary contribution soon feel that they have 'rights' when it comes to running the show.

IMHO the best thing that can happen to UK AA operations is that all have a brilliant idea at the same time and amalgamate with the RNLI who promptly join forces with the NPAS and form the basis of a Homeland Helicopter Service.

(Then, not long afterwards, they take over the HMCG aviation resources and we get what we deserve - a dedicated national resource.)

Oh dear, fantasising again? Must be time to retire!

G :E:E

[homonculus]

Geoffrey makes an interesting observation in at the Cornwall helicopter was designed to allow the ambulance service to meet NHS targets by responding to calls within allocated times. It was merely another resource, in the same way as South Central Ambulance Service use midwives to answer calls.

This is an excellent and worthwhile aim. The problem is that other services have suggested that their helicopter saves lives by doing things that ground resources cannot. With the exception of the London HEMS there is no peer reviewed research that this is the case.

The differing claims and aims makes any national service difficult to establish and so the true integration into the NHS that the medical profession would like to see is not going to happen.

I do have concerns over ever more expensive airframes for Geoffrey's aims. It is difficult to see how the increased cost provides a payback. This not only gives ammunition to opponents but reduces the money available to other healthcare charities as it has been demonstrated that there is a finite sum the public will contribute. Overall therefore this decision may reduce the standard of healthcare in Cornwall.

[Geoffersincornwall]

Rather like whitehead I see cost savings and efficiencies arising out of an integrated service. I am not a fan of multi rolling but shared accommodation (please include the Fire Service), and command and control plus economies of scale will enable a more efficient service. Pilots can be shared and other personnel cross-trained (some are already).

Last year I took part in a walk-athon (younger folks did the 10k run - including my eldest daughter) around St Mawgan and I realised just how hard the fund-raisers work to get the funds to help deliver a service for the future and improve it where possible.

As the first HEMS-style AA in the country it's right and proper that Cornwall AA should be up there with the best in the UK. The people of Cornwall have been great supporters and they deserve nothing less. In my time we started with a 12 foot long caravan of dubious origin and advanced in years. To see the new place makes me PROUD - not ashamed, not worried but pleased that for once aircrew doing a vital job have the BEST facilities and not the C**P we normally endure.

Please, join me in my happiness.

G. :ok:

[PANews]

I believe we have to let the HEMS have its head to test the boundaries. Lets face it the police started at a basic level and progressed a decade before the AA's were around.

Then we can only hope that if they find 'it' [any experiment - including Night HEMS] does not work they will have the self confidence to do an about turn.

[Geoffersincornwall]

Amen to that. It was the philosophy that underpinned our first year.

G. :ok:

[Thomas coupling]

I think the watershed has passed us all by already. The time when there was joined up thinking has long gone.
There is a process out there called Blue Light Air Assets - Future Operations by the RUSI.
This is/was an attempt to pursue this to its logical conclusion and for some individuals it still is an aspiration.
Police/HEMS/Fire/SAR all joined up and talking to each other, sharing assets/provisions, even staff.......beautiful stuff...(in another world perhaps).
The politics have now become so enormous and burdensome that I think the gulf between each asset is now enormous.
The Police have taken a left turn into a cul de sac called: NPAS, because of the 'excuse' to save money.
The Fire Brigade are deeply financially flawed and still reeling from the PFI debacle of building white elephants all around the country that they can't occupy!
The mil have gone civvy.
And the HEMS brigade are completely fragmented, autonomous units each so far up their own charitable backsides, the lights have gone out!

Trying to co-join this lot NOW is like trying to herd cats.

If it had been gripped early enough and years and years ago, it might have resembled logic by now. As it is, in its disjointed fragmented state, it will continue to leech money and effort 3, 4, 5 times that of a national emergency services air force.

The moment has passed.......

[SuperF]

TC Quote, "but your HEMS cover per head of population is probably the best in the world "

TC, sorry to burst your bubble, but NZ definitely and Aus probably have far better HEMS coverage per person than 4 helicopters for 2 million people.

Just thinking about Aus, maybe not, although it would be close to 40 machines for 20 million people, although the land area covered is probably a bit bigger... one of the Aussies on here would have to help on that.

In NZ we must have close to 40 HEMS helicopters for 4 million people! and they are all charity organisations, and have the same issues you guys do... every little area the size of cornwall thinks it needs its own helicopter, and we only have 100,000 or so people to fund it... good luck to them all i say.

[Geoffersincornwall]

Years ago I forecast that the military would run out of cash and would have to give up some toys - Bristow's success underlines how far that has come.

If we read the runes correctly the process of 'downsizing' the public sector has only just begun. It is just possible that when REAL pressure is brought to bear that others will have to concede that the only was forward for public service aviation assets is consolidation. For me the NPAS is a chink of light in a world devoid of common sense and chock-a-block with self interest.

Let's keep up the rhetoric TC, don't give up so easily. The market is 'coming to us' as an entrepreneur would say.

G. :ok:

[PANews]

Until quite recently the police service could be described in just those words written byTC and I am of the opinion that NPAS is a reaction to that. What follows is a bit simplistic ... but....

Unfortunately, because the instigators of NPAS were of a certain kind [Civil Servants in the Home Office, ACPO and politicians in the main] they took so long over getting their act together in launching NPAS that by the time it came to be a massive amount of work was already in train to turn around the perceived deficiences of what was in effect still a fragmented group of 'Chief Constables/Police Authority Toys'. The now not so recent purchase of 5 EC135P2, the North West and Midland's operational and purchasing cooperations were just a few of the signs of change and the thwarted second bulk buy centred on West Yorkshire was the next stage.

Even then it might have been OK if the whole plan had not been scuppered at the start gate by the pay review that effectively removed all the peer pressure on the crews that would result in them competing to be in a smaller NPAS. That detail means that a massive number of high quality movers and shakers are gone or going soon.

[Savoia]

Cost-Effectiveness of Helicopter Transport of Trauma Victims Examined

Apr. 25, 2013 — Researchers at the Stanford University School of Medicine have for the first time determined how often emergency medical helicopters need to help save the lives of seriously injured people to be considered cost-effective compared with ground ambulances.

The researchers found that if an additional 1.6 percent of seriously injured patients survive after being transported by helicopter from the scene of injury to a level-1 or level-2 trauma center, then such transport should be considered cost-effective. In other words, if 90 percent of seriously injured trauma victims survive with the help of ground transport, 91.6 need to survive with the help of helicopter transport for it to be considered cost-effective.

More: Cost-effectiveness of helicopter transport of trauma victims examined (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130425164502.htm)

[Thomas coupling]

Surely 1.6% of 90% is not 91.6%?:E

[homonculus]

This has been misquoted by the media. if you look at the paper itself it says you have to save 1.6 extra lives per 100 patients. Not per 100 deaths. This means that you have to reduce the overall death rate by 33% if the cost of a year's life saved is $50000

In the UK the value is put a lot lower. That means you have to reduce mortality even further - the cost of the helicopter is the same as in the US or as we all know greater but the saving is less per life saved.

The only objective UK study suggested a saving of as little as five lives per annum per aircraft. On this basis there appears to be a mountain to climb. Indeed unless you move 33% of all likely to die patients by helicopter and save their life in every case :\ you can never meet this target. Fortunately this slightly daft academic exercise is simply that. The real financial reason for HEMS is the massive reduction in other ground resources needed to meet government deadlines in rural areas. The humanitarian reason is the reduction of pain and suffering, equality of care plus the ethos that the public deserve the best possible care regardless of the individual cost:benefit ratio if it has been decided that the care in general should be available.

[griffothefog]

Geoffers,

Amen to the death of the caravan... I was the last person to step out of that putrid smelly 3 metre ****hole! Circa 1989... :D

Then we got a brand new portacabin under the wing of the RAF boys on the military side of RAF St.Mawgan, and it came with a real toilet, there's posh!! :{

Happy days.... :ok:

[Thomas coupling]

Homonculus: Bang on. Part of the reason the pressure was on for us to train a paramedic to fly onboard was so that we could comply with the regional Ambulance Authority / NHS KPI of being within 6 minutes of various choke points for accidents.

Griffo: what on earth are you on about????????????:ugh:

[MightyGem]

Griffo: what on earth are you on about????????????
Come on TC. Keep up. :)

[Savoia]

According to HeliHub:

Yorkshire Air Ambulance MD902 AOG for 7 months

10 May, 13

Yorkshire Air Ambulance (YAA) is in a state of flux at present with a combination of issues all happening at the same time.

Their older MD Explorer G-SASH went in for its annual in mid March, and needs a new flexbeam in the rotor system to make it airworthy again. However, MD Helicopters have told YAA that they do not have any available and the part is on back order with the manufacturer quoting October 2013 delivery. To cover for this, YAA leased in G-ESCI from Medical Aviation Services, but a few weeks later that too was out for its annual. During their lease of G-ESCI, YAA issued their press release about the kit bag design and the accompanying photo featured this blue/white aircraft.

The day after G-ESCI went back to MAS, YAA's other Explorer G-CEMS was grounded after damage from a heavy landing was noticed by an engineer - no previous pilot report had picked up a particular landing as extra heavy or potential for causing damage.

The day after G-CEMS was grounded, the very sad road accident on the M62 motorway occurred in their very area (see BBC news report) right at the point in time YAA had no helicopter to respond with. Correspondingly two Dauphins from Great North Air Ambulance, two EC135s from North West Air Ambulance and an Explorer from Lincolnshire/Nottinghamshire responded on YAA's behalf/request.

G-CEMS is now back flying with the damaged parts from the heavy landing replaced by the equivalent parts "borrowed" from the grounded G-SASH. YAA have also leased in Dauphin G-BTEU from Multiflight to enable them to provide a full two-aircraft operation. The details of this wet lease are covered in the Multiflight press release we are running shortly after publishing this story.

YAA would like to get back to a two Explorer operation - as all their crews are training on that type - but they currently don't know whether G-ESCI will be available after its annual is complete.

Yorkshire Air Ambulance MD902 AOG for 7 months | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2013/05/10/yorkshire-air-ambulance-md902-aog-for-7-months/)

[Harry O]

This is a sorry tale considering its a life saver. AOG for 7 months :eek:

No parts for 7 months and even the hired in replacement which costs more money needs to go back :bored:

Could it be a time for a change uup north maybe?

Not a good advert for MD or MAS. How many hems ops are still using 902's?

Yorkshire Air Ambulance MD902 AOG for 7 months | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2013/05/10/yorkshire-air-ambulance-md902-aog-for-7-months/)

[Ian Corrigible]

When Police Aviation News (http://www.policeaviationnews.com)'s Bryn Elliott raised the issue of UK MD902 parts shortages during MD's Heli-Expo press conference, he had his ass chewed off, was told that the question was "unfair," and warned that any further questions would be ignored.

June's copy of PAN should be entertaining... :E

I/C

[jayteeto]

What aircraft has cornwall or Devon decided on? A 902? Hope the cheap contract was worth it?

[Harry O]

I think the crew would have remembered a hard landing.
I remember a skid part fail on another YAS 902 while filming for the BBC helicopter series.
Are MAS/PAS be trying to get back at the YAS charity for going it alone on maintenance?
A hard landing in a 902.
MD902 Helicopter Hard Landing - YouTube

[Anthony Supplebottom]

What the heck were those :mad: at the controls of the 902 trying to achieve?

[Notar fan]

AS.. that was HV testing at 6,500lbs, or possibly 6,770.

[HeliStudent]

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/polopoly_fs/1.111318.1373466004!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_620/image.jpg


Praise has been heaped on the helpful souls of Angus who ensured an injured pensioner received urgent medical treatment. Scotland’s Charity Air Ambulance was called to Lunan Bay on Monday after an elderly lady badly injured her hip.

A thick sea haar had descended over the coast in the afternoon and the helicopter was unable to land on the beach where the woman lay stranded with her partner. The fog forced the crew to land in a field in Maryton — three miles from the beach — but the paramedics were rushed to the scene at the beach thanks to two good Samaritans. The helpers drove the ambulance crew to the car park at Lunan Bay where they met up with the road ambulance unit who were already treating the woman.


Locals quick to volunteer when air ambulance paramedics needed a lift - Angus & The Mearns / Local / News / The Courier (http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/angus-the-mearns/locals-quick-to-volunteer-when-air-ambulance-paramedics-needed-a-lift-1.111089)

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Emergency services: air ambulance charities in crisis

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Society/Comment/Columnist/2013/7/15/1373888742093/Air-ambulance-helicopter-007.jpg

Aggressive fundraising tactics and lack of regulation mean rescue helicopter charities are heading for collision

The truth is that air ambulances have been set up across the country with no overall planning, no agreed funding and no clear, bespoke system of regulation. As a result, there is an imbalanced patchwork of services, heavily skewed towards southern England, all relying to some degree on charitable donations but some receiving much more state support than others. Unsurprisingly, there are tensions and rifts.

Talks are due to take place Thursday to try to bridge a growing divide between the Association of Air Ambulances, which represents 14 of the 19 services in Britain, and the Air Ambulance Service (AAS), which operates two services, one for Warwickshire and Northamptonshire and another for Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Rutland. The AAS says it takes not a penny of state or lottery funding, and is critical of other services for doing so at a time when the NHS is under acute strain.

Emergency services: air ambulance charities in crisis | Society | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jul/16/emergency-services-air-ambulance-charities-crisis)

[aeromys]

'Aggressive tactics' is not far from the truth. Although I am all for supporting what the charity AAs do, a bona-fide collector for my local AA knocked on my front door a few months ago, and I gladly reached for my wallet to give him some notes.
Oh no, he says, he wants my credit card and shoves a form at me wanting to sign up to a monthly direct debit for 20 quid minimum. When I politely decline, I get a 'well I hope you never have to call them sir' and the smile goes as he heads off to the next house :*

[homonculus]

Interesting that those benefiting from running the service want an essential part of the NHS funded by charity and not the NHS. I wonder why. And why stop at Air Ambulances? I am sure cancer is emotive enough. Indeed why not let charity sponsor the NHS lock stock and barrel. And if it cant cope may be private companies would like to help. We could call it privatisation, or in politician speak reorganisation.

This all seems to be getting highly political and opaque, and when politics gets into medicine fingers get burnt and the patient suffers.

[Bertie Thruster]

...or it could just be the AAS being clever with words so that they can justify the need for their coldly calculated out-of-area fundraising methods.

[Coconutty]

One of the latest fund raising activities :



Having trouble reading this email? View it in your own browser (http://mailtracking.eclipsemarketing.co.uk/emailpreview.aspx?id=59cb3c06-a7fe-e211-9b92-001e4f3dc2c4&cid=77d33d54-9cfe-e211-9b92-001e4f3dc2c4&Lid=12057e2c-3bde-e211-ab15-001e4f3dc2c4&type=Preview)


http://staging.triumphlms.net/assets/uploads/Email%20Images/333nQVlH1ew=/images/130806_rescue_ride_out_cape.jpg


http://www.triumphlms.net/assets/Uploads/Master%20Templates/1LfgGsO8P70=/27718801-3e35-4c81-861a-eac63e881951/HA-Email-Template-V1/images/spacer.gif
http://www.triumphlms.net/assets/Uploads/Master%20Templates/1LfgGsO8P70=/27718801-3e35-4c81-861a-eac63e881951/HA-Email-Template-V1/images/spacer.gif
http://www.triumphlms.net/assets/Uploads/Master%20Templates/1LfgGsO8P70=/27718801-3e35-4c81-861a-eac63e881951/HA-Email-Template-V1/images/spacer.gif

Join the Air Ambulance on their Rescue Ride Out!




The Rescue Ride Out is the Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Rutland Air Ambulance’s summer fund-raising run and you're invited to join in!

Setting off on the 18th August the run will see riders from all over the UK converging on the family-friendly Brackley Festival of Motorcycling.

One of a number of starting points throughout the country, Triumph’s headquarters in Hinckley, will host bikers from all over Leicestershire for the pre-ride registration, before heading off on a scenic ride to the Northampton market town of Brackley.

All riders are welcome to join the ride, which is scheduled to leave at 9am (registration from 8am), but must provide a £10 donation which includes entry to the Brackley Bike Festival and refreshments.

Online pre-registration is essential for all riders. Find out more online at theairambulanceservice.org.uk (http://mailtracking.eclipsemarketing.co.uk/redirects.aspx?id=b5337648-c804-e311-9b92-001e4f3dc2c4&cid=77d33d54-9cfe-e211-9b92-001e4f3dc2c4&lid=12057e2c-3bde-e211-ab15-001e4f3dc2c4&)

See you on the 18th!



http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Thomas coupling]

It is a patchwork system. An NPAS equivalent would streamline the system and save the public millions in duplication and surplus staffing levels. Surely one day someone will grip this and bring it into line with most other international operators?

[jayteeto]

Are you suggesting we work like NPAS?
A national service would mean units would operate to similar systems like NICE. oh you can't go to that one, it's not cost effective, let them die. It's happening up and down the country NOW.
At the moment the majority of charities do a great job, ours are excellent. Their priority is to provide the best service they can without politics. We all know the rogue charities, why should our service be compromised to improve them? Sorry, but national large organisations are inefficient and costly, 24 years military and seven with the police showed me that.

[homonculus]

I have to agree with TC

What matters is the size of an organisation not the territory it covers. A 'national' system would still be tiny - perhaps 150 employees and could save considerable sums

NICE is not a good example of a national organisation but a poor example of a government quango. Look at the medical royal colleges and you will see examples of national standards that are the best in the world - or were until the government replaced them with a quango called PMETB

The charities are to be commended for raising money and for altruism. They are not to be commended for audit or determining how best to medically use the resources because they have sadly failed in that quarter. That again will only come with a national system that is large enough to invest in research

[One35]

I'd also have to agree with a national approach; but Jayteeto's concerns are valid. We'd need to heed the lessons learnt from NPAS. I also don't think that TAAS are the right people to be championing this.

[create_it83]

The RNLI appear to run a superb, national, well organised and effective charity. Or perhaps that's just how it looks from the outside?

[jayteeto]

Homonculus, you hit the nail on the head. It was a good service, at least until the government changed it. That's why national doesn't work. I wasn't holding NICE as a national organisation to copy, just that they play God using value for money as a guide. Charities may not be medically efficient, but ours does not discriminate on grounds of VFM. That's why I oppose national and the public fill our collection tins.

[[email protected]]

The RNLI have also fallen prey to the myth of greater efficiencies using modern management-speak and tactics.

They decided that the contractors they were using for repairs to the lifeboats (especially composite materials specialists) were too expensive and that the process should all be brought in-house - trouble is their home-grown talent isn't very talented and suffers from the sort of British work-place malaise 'oh that'll have to wait until after tea break' that plagues many industries.

The result? They can't get the work done quick enough or to the required standard so the contractors have to come back and save the day again:ugh:

[HeliStudent]

AMBULANCE services have explained why an air ambulance, as well as a road ambulance and a rapid response vehicle, were sent to an incident involving a man with a suspected broken leg. The helimed helicopter was called to the incident in Swansea's Victoria Park on Sunday afternoon, after reports of a man in his thirties believed to have suffered an ankle injury.

Why helicopter was called to Swansea's Victoria Park for a leg injury | This is South Wales (http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/helicopter-called-leg-injury/story-19744012-detail/story.html#axzz2dqEtqZfm)

[homonculus]

Victoria Park is 1000 feet from.....

Singleton hospital, a 550 bed modern hospital with 24 hour A and E and 4 consultant orthopaedic surgeons, 2 of whom specialise in trauma.

Morriston hospital is some 4-5 miles away. Less than ten minutes even if you stop at the red lights. 750 beds - one of the largest in the country.

We dont have traction splints on ambulances in general because they are not needed! Fractured legs are managed day in and day out by land ambulances. Even if there were risk to a blood vessel or nerve, the bloke could have been on the operating theatre next door before helimed could have got their frictions off.

With rubbish like this is it any wonder HEMS have a bad reputation amongst so many doctors.

[DeltaNg]

Surely it is the despatch mechanism that is at fault as opposed to the HEMS aircraft. After all, they only do as they're told.

[206 jock]

Now now Delta, don't bother spouting boring facts when Homonucleus carries on his keyboard warrior tirade about air ambulance operations in the UK....

[Bertie Thruster]

Despatch mechanism.

HEMS helicopter tasked by NHS Ambulance control to fly 30 miles to a roundabout outside the Midlands largest trauma centre. Reason: no wheeled ambulances available to attend an RTC at that location.

That trauma centre requires a wheeled ambulance transfer from the hospital helipad to A+E. None available to be put on standby at the helipad.

Ambulance control 'ordered' the helicopter to take the casualty to another hospital 20 miles further away as it had a rooftop helipad.

Job refused by crew. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth by Ambulance control and threats of dire consequences on the (NHS) HEMS crew.

[homonculus]

Actually 206 Jock I agree with DeltaNg

It is indeed the system that I criticise. I believe there is an important role for helicopters in the medical arena but like any other expensive medical resource it is vital we ensure they are used efficiently and effectively.

If your CT scanner sits empty due to incompetent staffing or if your operating theatre is underused due to inefficiency you rightly complain and I am brought to task. Why not here?

[206 jock]

In the case of Bertie's example (even if it's only half true), the management team of the charity are at fault - and their trustees for not providing sufficient oversight. There should be a sufficiently robust SLA between the charity and the local Ambulance Service which prevents an air ambulance asset being used merely to cover the lack of road assets. Every charity I know, works on these.

But if it's TAAS, they are undoubtedly focussing on other things that are important to them, like taking over the world.

Getting tasking right is never going to be an exact science. But if all parties agree on the correct measures and work towards them, it's a Good Thing.

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Job refused by crew. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth by Ambulance control and threats of dire consequences on the (NHS) HEMS crew.

Sounds as if there is scope for the cultivation of a little camaraderie between the NHS and HEMS staff!

[jimf671]

Sounds as if there is scope for the cultivation of a little camaraderie between the NHS and HEMS staff!

More than that AS, there is huge scope for the British to learn a lot more about joint working. Too many silos. Too much management and not enough technical expertise. The air ambulance situation in England is just one part of far wider problem.

In the rotary HEMS/SAR part of the problem there may be scope for a new role for someone who can bang heads together. An aviator whose principle responsibility is the good of the casualty/patient?

[Bertie Thruster]

HEMS in UK cannot 'self task'. Task has to come from (or be approved by, if HEMS crew happen upon an incident) an NHS ambulance control.

Upset 'control' by refusing a task ...then watch the helicopter call out rate drop for the rest of the month!

I observed 12 years of this. Hopefully with the increase in doctors on HEMS crews, Amb control managers' histrionics will finally be nipped.

[jayteeto]

The north west now have a dedicated trauma cell and a HEMS paramedic in the control room. From day one the volume and quality of our tasking has increased, this is not just used for helicopters I might add.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

then watch the helicopter call out rate drop for the rest of the month!


Have there really been occasions where a control room really don't use a helicopter just to spite a crew who had said no to a recent task?

[jayteeto]

Sadly, yes, they are only human.........

[Bladecrack]

Victoria Park is 1000 feet from.....

Singleton hospital, a 550 bed modern hospital with 24 hour A and E and 4 consultant orthopaedic surgeons, 2 of whom specialise in trauma.

Morriston hospital is some 4-5 miles away. Less than ten minutes even if you stop at the red lights. 750 beds - one of the largest in the country.

We dont have traction splints on ambulances in general because they are not needed! Fractured legs are managed day in and day out by land ambulances. Even if there were risk to a blood vessel or nerve, the bloke could have been on the operating theatre next door before helimed could have got their frictions off.

With rubbish like this is it any wonder HEMS have a bad reputation amongst so many doctors.

I think this shows how detached some doctors are from the reality of the shortfalls of the ambulance service when they assume there is always an ambulance just waiting round the corner ready for the next 999 call. Consider the alternative headline, "Man with badly fractured leg in public park a few miles from hospital waits over an hour for an ambulance"

Jateeto is correct regarding behaviour of SOME control staff, and worse than that, some control room staff are quite adept at "sexing up" a job in order to justify sending a helicopter knowing full well it does not require one.

[Flaxton Flyer]

Yorkshire AA have been self-tasking for at least 5 years. Stand down rates immediately plunged dramatically in our own region, but unfortunately neighbouring areas still call us in for the flimsiest of reasons. (Usually because they have no road crews). Stand down rates are huge, but they insist we are needed even when we point out that we are at least 25 minutes from the incident.

15 minutes flying time later and we are stood down. Apart from one one famous occasion when they forgot to stand us down, and we arrived at a job 60 miles from base to find a policeman with a broom sweeping up the broken taillight glass from the "emergency".

I should be able to let it all flow over me by now, but it annoys me beyond all reason. Unfortunately I'm just the driver and have no say in the despatch procedure, this being the realm of the "medical professional". Ha.

[homonculus]

Sorry Bladecrack but as a prehospital care practitioner I am far from detached

This wasn't a badly fractured leg. If you look at the press article it was merely a suspected fracture, and newspapers are so well known for melodrama I am happy to postulate it was merely a strain. But whether or not the leg was broken, ambulance services have a range of responses including senior officers, paramedic vehicles, ambulances, first responders, pre care practitioners and even midwives and GPs

If the local control confirms they had absolutely nobody and couldn't pull a response unit from a less urgent task such as a GPs request for admission, then so be it but in reality it is very rare for an ambulance service to be so over stretched in an urban setting to justify using a helicopter merely to meet government response. Even when they are stretched to the limit a specific plan is used which don't involve helicopters.

[206 jock]

Homonucleus, you are in danger of making yourself look a prat. As a "prehospital care practitioner", you ought to know better.

Let's look at a few of the things that we do know. I won't call them facts, as we weren't there and none of us know - that includes you. Just because you think something is true, doesn't make it so.

- as land based assets were also on scene (read the article!), it seems likely to me that this was a crew request for aircraft assistance. Not only does the article say that there were three assets on scene, the second pic shows guys in green: almost certainly ambulance techs or paramedics
- the fact that the patient was airlifted to Morriston would indicate that the people on the ground (air and land) decided that this was the best option for the patient.

I'm sure there's a valid point somewhere in your arguments, but for the life of me, I cannot see it.

And on a wider note, if you really think that Air Ambulances are any use in meeting government response targets, you need to get out more. An air ambulance will almost always take longer to get to scene than a land-based asset: just getting the aircraft airborne takes at least 3 minutes.

[DX Wombat]

a bona-fide collector for my local AA knocked on my front door a few months ago, and I gladly reached for my wallet to give him some notes.
Oh no, he says, he wants my credit card and shoves a form at me wanting to sign up to a monthly direct debit for 20 quid minimum.Aeromys, if you live in the area covered by the Yorkshire Air Ambulance you have had a near miss. The YAA does NOT do door to door collections for cash or direct debits, nor does it hand out those plastic bags for you to fill with unwanted clothing. YAA is very keen for people to report all such occurrences to the Police. Unfortunately the people perpetrating these actions are very convincing in appearance, patter etc, even down to wearing clothing which, to the uninitiated looks exactly as they would expect of a member of the crew. :mad:

[Thomas coupling]

206: I flew HEMS for many many years. Believe me when I tell you that Hospital trusts through the AA use(d) the helo to tick off several government targets none less prolific than the then 6 minutes from "x" percent of the population statistic.

I need to add one more thing to not only you but anyone else "questioning" Homonculus' credentials. Be very very careful when you address this particular pseudonym...one never knows who or what lies behind it. Do your research :uhoh:

[homonculus]

206 jock

The article says the diagnosis was a suspected fractured leg and I am commenting on the article as I have no other information. The point you can't understand is that I question is why there was a reason to use a helicopter.

I am bemused by the article stating that other resources were on the ground because I can't understand why the other resources didn't take the suspected fractured leg to the next door hospital. That doesn't make me a prat but just reflects the fact that this is a rumour network where we discuss the issues as presented to us. The media often get it wrong and this article may be total rubbish, but that is the fun of participating on this site.

I stand by my original opinion, namely that a suspected fractured leg next door to a major a and e department is normally properly managed by any front line vehicle and does not need a helicopter.

[DX Wombat]

homunculus, maybe the A&E Dept nearby was closed for some reason.

[Bladecrack]

The article says the diagnosis was a suspected fractured leg and I am commenting on the article as I have no other information. The point you can't understand is that I question is why there was a reason to use a helicopter.

I am bemused by the article stating that other resources were on the ground because I can't understand why the other resources didn't take the suspected fractured leg to the next door hospital. That doesn't make me a prat but just reflects the fact that this is a rumour network where we discuss the issues as presented to us. The media often get it wrong and this article may be total rubbish, but that is the fun of participating on this site.

I stand by my original opinion, namely that a suspected fractured leg next door to a major a and e department is normally properly managed by any front line vehicle and does not need a helicopter.

I understand from a local paramedic that there were 2 RRV's on scene and no ambulances were available to attend. The injury was reported as a dislocated fracture with suspected ischemia to the foot, therefore a crew request was made for Helimed to attend. Also Singleton hospital only has a GP led Minor Injuries Unit and the patient would not have been taken there anyway, either by land or air.

[telster]

I understand from a local paramedic that there were 2 RRV's on scene and no ambulances were available to attend. The injury was reported as a dislocated fracture with suspected ischemia to the foot, therefore a crew request was made for Helimed to attend. Also Singleton hospital only has a GP led Minor Injuries Unit and the patient would not have been taken there anyway, either by land or air.

So, two pages of comments over a helicopter being used to take a time critical patient to an appropriate A+E dept. Might well have saved his foot. Just a reminder to take the time to hear the whole story before jumping to conclusions, 'probably just a sprain'!

(Ex NHS Paramedic)

[[email protected]]

We do a lot of jobs in South Wales and we have never been asked to take a casualty (no matter how minor) to Singleton, it is always Morriston.

The only reason for using the Singleton LS is if the weather is too bad to get to Morriston and even then they transfer them to Morriston by ambulance.

What is getting worse now is the ambulance control/NHS dictating to the crews where the casualty should be taken rather than leaving it to the clinician in charge of the casualty (who has the best idea of the injuries) and the crew (who have the weather and fuel issues to consider) to make the best solution.

Our job is to rescue people from hazardous situations and get them to primary care - not worry about bed spaces, A&E waiting times or govt targets.

[jayteeto]

Crab, congratulations! Your last statement is the 100% correct way that crews should operate................... However..............
You have served (i know) with multiple military agencies and they are no different to the NHS. The best way is not always the done thing. Until recently, all paramedics plus the helimed crews up here were operating to a crazy system. They COULD NOT pass the nearest a&e department with a patient, even though they knew 100% that, after an assessment, the patient would be moved (eg, a burns unit). This affected long term outcomes.
Cut to this year, the trauma pathway is in place. Not perfect, but a million times better. A trauma cell in the control room looks at the bigger jobs and gives instructions to the crews on hospital choice. They are not on the spot, but experience of how road crews operate (and human nature) allows me to fully support this concept........ Even if spare beds and waiting times are factored in.
A crew faced with major trauma will naturally want to go to the nearest hospital to 'get rid' of the problem, or will want to get off on time, or any of a number of other reasons. More importantly, we find that when on scene, they listen to us if a job is not as bad (or is worse) than they think. They are flexible.
I understand that after your years of experience, you dont like being taught how to suck eggs, but the system is aimed at the lowest common denominator. We are finding it to be a huge step forward.

[206 jock]

TC - thanks for the advice, I'll give due credit where it is deserved. I'm sure homonculus knows his stuff in the medical world, but that's not really the issue here now, is it?

Jayteeto - the trauma network will throw the cat among the pigeons in the air ambulance world. Personally, I suspect it very strongly supports the doctor paramedic model over paramedic/paramedic - absolutely not dissing the role of the paramedic, but having the doctor on board means that some procedures can occur at the scene which will improve patient outcomes, especially bearing in mind the longer transits that will inevitably be involved.

In the operation that I know of, the doctors on the aircraft have a direct input on where patients are best served. If that means flying straight past the local Major Trauma Centre, so be it. Of course the A&E heads squawk but it had one positive effect: they put in a helipad with direct access to the A&E rather than justifying why a road transit from the local golf course was 'OK'.

[OneOffDave]

Bearing in mind the distribution in the UK of the Major Trauma Centres (only 26 of them), I'm sure you'd have to have evidence your decision making pretty well to justify bypassing one for one further away. I know of at least one incidence where this happened due to the helipad at the nearest MTC being occupied and the flight time to the next nearest was estimated to be shorter than the estimated time for the helipad to clear but I've not heard of it being done for specialist clinical reasons yet.

It's also worth remembering that some of the air ambulance doctors also have senior roles in the MTCs too so the 'us and them' isn't that clear cut.

[jayteeto]

Just as in the past, this will not work 100% of the time. What is important is that it is an improvement and is flexible. If improvements can be made, they will. The system works for para/para or para/doc. The statisticians tell us that long term outcomes will improve, although short terms for some will not. These people were probably very poorly anyway. If that person is a family member, that could sound extremely harsh, but if YOU were in charge, what path would you take? Do you have a bunch of people live a week or a smaller amount make a full recovery? Way above my pay grade.

[[email protected]]

Jayteeto - I see why the trauma pathway might work for AA but the NHS seem to have tried to impose it on us without any consultation or the understanding that they are not our tasking authority.

We seem to be having quite a few conflicts between what is operationally sensible for SAR (keeping in our own operating area for one) and what ambulance control want done with the casualty.

Where we can oblige without compromising our availability we probably will but I think there is some work going on between the ARCCK and NHS at the moment to clarify our position.

[jayteeto]

Agreed, if they DEMAND helicopter availability, there is one SIMPLE solution.............

BUY SOME HELICOPTERS!!!!!!!

[[email protected]]

If they got rid of a few tiers of management, they could probably afford them:ok:

[DX Wombat]

And more doctors and nurses. :ok: Pigs (porcine ones not Plods) might fly. :(

[Savoia]

New Midlands Air Ambulance helicopter to allow night rescues

October 30, 2013 10:59

Midlands Air Ambulance has bought its first helicopter, giving it the ability to fly at night for the first time.

Bosses at the charity have bought the new £4.5m EC135T2e helicopter, which will be based at RAF Cosford.

It will be fully equipped for night flying and will replace three EC135 helicopters that are currently leased to the charity.

Because of its new capabilities, the charity is exploring the viability of flying at night and plans to launch a public appeal in the new year to help raise the extra funds necessary.

New Midlands Air Ambulance helicopter to allow night rescues « Shropshire Star (http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/health/2013/10/30/new-midlands-air-ambulance-helicopter-to-allow-night-rescues/)

[helihub]

Interesting twist on this thread.

Fraudsters threaten donations for county's air ambulance - Northamptonshire Telegraph (http://www.northantstelegraph.co.uk/news/top-stories/fraudsters-threaten-donations-for-county-s-air-ambulance-1-5724556)
.

[Nail The Dream]

... and will replace three EC135 helicopters that are currently leased to the charity.

:eek: ???

The article quoted ( now ) says :

... and will replace an EC135 helicopter that is currently leased to the charity.

.... Panic over !

Nail

[Hedski]

Who signed for a 429 then? Someone has but I don't know who. Machine sounds great but they're in for a shock when they experience the quality and experience (lack) of who'll be operating it.......:eek:

[PANews]

The Association of Air Ambulances sets itself up as the 'go to' organisation for UK air ambulances.

This relatively small but important charity handling the affairs of nearly all the high value air ambulance charities [those who collect millions in charity funds every year] and have made a great thing out of handing out buckets of government money from the Libor funds to fellow air ambulances [and taking a little off the top [or bottom] for itself does not think that the sudden departure of the Chair and then the CEO in recent days are important?

There was no public announcement on the resignation of the Chair Hanna Sebright in early January and no intention to issue a public message on the sudden departure of Clive Dickin CEO this week. In the case of the former departure I guess that was Clive Dickin's decision. The rest of the board decided on 'no release' this week.

In each case messages were quietly sent to the AAA membership on both items and the one on Clive departing this week happened to come my way.

Apparently the vacancies will be filled at the AGM at the end of March.

[chopper2004]

Who signed for a 429 then? Someone has but I don't know who. Machine sounds great but they're in for a shock when they experience the quality and experience (lack) of who'll be operating it.......:eek:

Since 2014/15, Wiltshire Air Ambulance Charity is the sole operator of Bell 429 for HEMS. The a/c are supplied and supported / flown by Heli Charter guys.

I was at Helitech 2014 in Amsterdam, when the a/c was handed over during the show.

AFAIK, its running fine for the charity...

Cheers

[Thomas coupling]

So why have these two crucial people - left?

[Hedski]

Since 2014/15, Wiltshire Air Ambulance Charity is the sole operator of Bell 429 for HEMS. The a/c are supplied and supported / flown by Heli Charter guys.

I was at Helitech 2014 in Amsterdam, when the a/c was handed over during the show.

AFAIK, its running fine for the charity...

Cheers

That’ll explain why the charity are now looking to go it alone, even their recent advert for pilots points to this....

[helihub]

So why have these two crucial people - left?

Heli Charter is not the company it was. They ceased being a Bell CSF (http://helihub.com/2017/01/13/uk-heli-charter-is-no-longer-a-bell-csf/) 14 months ago, their MD/owner sadly died (http://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/businessman-and-pilot-loses-cancer-134349/) in October 2017, their Bell IR status went to new company HelixAv (http://www.helx.co.uk/) just prior to HeliUKExpo 2017 along with some of the same people from HC, etc etc

So, given the uncertainty of the future of HC, it's no surprise that Wiltshire AA are looking for a more long term stable situation with their 429 I would expect.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

This link in Third Sector News (https://www.thirdsector.co.uk/regulator-re-opens-air-ambulance-service-case-admitting-previous-advice-fell-short/governance/article/1459809) refers to a Sunday Times article, which I didn't get to see. It would appear that Mr Williamson is back in the limelight after the Charity Commission acknowledged failings in its previous investigation. I think it refers to a Strictly Come Dancing-themed event that lost the charity over £100,000 - apparently, nearly a year's pay for the CEO.

I also note that in their response, the charity spokesperson referred to "over 30,000 missions" - are they recording airtests, training flights and early cancellations as 'missions', or do they use the same criteria as other UK Air Ambulance operations?

[DrinkGirls]

The Strictly Come Dancing was ANOTHER different problem exposed by the BBC.

[PANews]

It is a bit of a rum do!

In fairness though most of the air ambulance charities drag in personalities to further enhance their money making .... some they pay for - some they do not. Looking back over the well known faces involved with TAAS there are sports players and minor Royals as well as those expensive dancers.

If the event had gone well we may never have heard about the £100K losses in the first place and this will not be the first or the last such event to fail.

I see that the AAA Trustees have decided to suspend TAAS membership pending the outcome of the renewed Charity Commission enquiry.

Clearly supportive and pulling together!

No matter how this goes I suspect that TAAS will never rejoin AAA again. I recall the AAA CEO telling me that it took superhuman efforts to get them to sign up in the first place.

[206 jock]

I see that the AAA Trustees have decided to suspend TAAS membership pending the outcome of the renewed Charity Commission enquiry.

Clearly supportive and pulling together!

No matter how this goes I suspect that TAAS will never rejoin AAA again. I recall the AAA CEO telling me that it took superhuman efforts to get them to sign up in the first place.

I'm assuming that no-one commenting here actually read the Sunday Times piece? The implication is that the CEO of TAAS is celebrity-obsessed and used charity funds to further his ambition to cosey up to celebs. I can imagine that Mr. Williamson - while showing off to the members of Little Mix in front of his children and their friends (no...honestly!) - would say 'I run The Air Ambulance Service' and 'we operate nationally'. Both of which may technically be correct, but represent a gross manipulation of the truth!

Here's a little more local summary of the situation as it stands: https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/petition-calls-for-northamptonshire-air-ambulance-boss-to-step-down-amid-claims-he-used-charity-funds-on-a-luxury-concierge-service-1-8430051

Bryn, I have no connection with the AAA, but I would imagine that TAAS would be welcomed back into the fold once due process has taken place. However I suspect that would only occur once the CEO and perhaps the board of Trustees of TAAS have been 'overhauled'.

[haihio]

SOrry to change the topic of conversations a bit. Just out of curiosity, how many hours per year does the average hems pilot fly in the UK?