North East UK Police Helicopter might be closed

[Max Shutterspeed]

Just seen this in an idle moment on the local rag's website:

Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2008/02/25/police-helicopter-future-up-in-the-air-84229-20520805/)

Any truth in it?

Regards

MS

[jayteeto]

Just out of interest, what is the flying time from Newcastle Airport to the south edge of operations? Even better, what is the flight time from the northern tip of ops to the southern tip?

[Max Shutterspeed]

I don't know what the southern limit of ops is or the speed of an EC135, but it's around 30 miles from Newcastle airport to Teesside.

Max

[jayteeto]

Every area is different, but I do know that we often struggle to get to high speed pursuits in the south end of Liverpool and our flying time is only 6-7 minutes. 15+ minutes does seem to play into the hands of the criminals. I know some rural forces have huge areas to cover, but Teeside does have form for pursuits and firearms incidents. Still, someone can get promoted for reducing the overall budget, therein making the force more efficient in fighting crime. Because of this fiscal efficiency, the force will perform better in 2008 than in 2007. Graphs will be produced to show that this is an excellent idea and the residents of Teeside will be able to sleep even more safely at night. The money saved can then be released to fund the long awaited diversity training for all personnel in order for them to better understand the needs of asylum seekers in Teeside. They can also bring a new stop form recording form, to monitor the number of stop forms issued by individual officers each day. This will allow graphs to be produced, to show the importance of stop form recording forms in the overall efficiency drive of the local police force.

Seems like simple good economics to me!!

[Max Shutterspeed]

Still, someone can get promoted for reducing the overall budget, therein making the force more efficient in fighting crime. Because of this fiscal efficiency, the force will perform better in 2008 than in 2007. Graphs will be produced to show that this is an excellent idea and the residents of Teeside will be able to sleep even more safely at night. The money saved can then be released to fund the long awaited diversity training for all personnel in order for them to better understand the needs of asylum seekers in Teeside. They can also bring a new stop form recording form, to monitor the number of stop forms issued by individual officers each day. This will allow graphs to be produced, to show the importance of stop form recording forms in the overall efficiency drive of the local police force.

Seems like simple good economics to me!!

Damn, and I thought I was good at cynicism and sarcasm....:ok:

So if this happens, we'll be back to a level of cover lower than when the good old Islander used to drone around giving everyone a headache...

MS

[A.Agincourt]

From the Gazette:In October last year the Gazette revealed that Northumbria Police were replacing some police officers with community support officers in force helicopters - a move branded another cost-cutting exercise.

A pretty desperate measure?

It would be silly to reduce the fleet, it might make more sense to move it from DumDum Thick Valley. don't' know where though.

Best Wishes

[jayteeto]

No fact in my following statement, only heard a 'rumour'. The force currently uses EC135T1 'classics' that need to be replaced very soon due to new regulations. One helicopter is expensive to replace, 2 helicopters = firkin very expensive!! Any truth in this?

Rumour 2: The use of recruiting PCSOs as observers isn't quite the full story. The plan was civvie observers, who would then be made PCSOs (subtle difference) which means they can be used for other duties if the aircraft is off line. True or false again?

[Fortyodd2]

G-NESV at Newcastle is a T1 ~ G-NEAU at Teeside is a T2.

T1's will need to be replaced by 31 Mar 2010 as they will no longer be compliant.

[A.Agincourt]

jayteeto:

Rumour 2: The use of recruiting PCSOs as observers isn't quite the full story. The plan was civvie observers, who would then be made PCSOs (subtle difference) which means they can be used for other duties if the aircraft is off line. True or false again?

TRUTH


Best Wishes

[HeliRoute]

It doesn't stop there! ASU is only one department that our government thinks wise in civilianising. All part of the labour govmts plan in reducing police officers in my view.
Nothing like a police officer with a police officer's training, skills and nose to seek out and hunt the bad guys.
ASUs and their skilled staff prove their weight in gold in tackling crime.
Here's another great idea the govmt might want to consider... Close local fire and ambulance stations and centralise staff. Close city hospitals and have a few regional hospitals?

[A.Agincourt]

Question: what do you call a group or body of people who furtively work towards the destruction of a society without the agreement of that society and who do so by rank deceit and disinformation coupled with incompetence?


Best Wishes

[TiPwEiGhT]

Out of interest why are the T1's having to be replaced?

[Fortyodd2]

"Question: what do you call a group or body of people who furtively work towards the destruction of a society without the agreement of that society and who do so by rank deceit and disinformation coupled with incompetence?"

Answer: The Government.

TiPwEiGhT: As of 31st March 2010, the T1 or "Classic" EC135 will no longer meet the requirement for public transport flights at night as it only has a very basic stability system and not the bells and whistles 3-axis system that's fitted in the T2/P2 models. The cost of retro fitting is not cost effective in any way shape or form so the options for those units still operating T1s are disband, replace or become a day only operation. Currently, 1 unit has already replaced theirs & 5 more are in the process of making their minds up ~ expect an answer soon.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Question: what do you call a group or body of people who furtively work towards the destruction of a society without the agreement of that society and who do so by rank deceit and disinformation coupled with incompetence?

A "THICKET" :ugh:

Out of interest why are the T1's having to be replaced?

The T1 CDS machines do not comply with the night stab regulations coming in 2010

[Max Shutterspeed]

Obviously there's a good reason, but why do they need to operate in Public Transport Category if there are only crew on board?

MS

[Fortyodd2]

"Obviously there's a good reason, but why do they need to operate in Public Transport Category if there are only crew on board?"

Oh dear, this could turn ugly.....

because, apart from the pilot, everyone else in a Police Aircraft is a passenger. Doesn't mean I agree with it ~ it's just the way it is. Been covered may times before in this forum.

[jayteeto]

Oh Max!! Thats the Moulinex Mixer out of the cupboard to stir it up.
There is only one 'crewmember' on board our helicopter. The LoCos think they have it bad with unruly passengers........ mine keep telling me where to fly to and sometimes shout at me and force me to make the tea.....:8

[A.Agincourt]

Fly_For_Fun Quote:
Question: what do you call a group or body of people who furtively work towards the destruction of a society without the agreement of that society and who do so by rank deceit and disinformation coupled with incompetence?
A "THICKET" :ugh:

I think you might have gotten that mixed up. I always understood a group of engineers in the corner of the hanger was termed a Thicket. Or maybe I misunderstood. :rolleyes:

Best Wishes

[nodrama]

A group of engineers in the corner of the hangar is called:

a) A union meeting.

b) A dangerous place for a pilot to be.

c) An 'Idle'.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Jayteeto,

An excellent summary - nailed it on the head. Now that I no longer operate on either the Wilts or Dorset aircraft, I look-on as an interested outsider to see if financial considerations outweigh operational aspects in the future of police aviation support in those 2 areas. I know where I'd place my bets - if I was a gambler, which of course I ain't.

[Max Shutterspeed]

Oh Max!! Thats the Moulinex Mixer out of the cupboard to stir it up.
There is only one 'crewmember' on board our helicopter. The LoCos think they have it bad with unruly passengers........ mine keep telling me where to fly to and sometimes shout at me and force me to make the tea.....

I was only asking....:sad:

I just assumed that as all onboard were employees of the operator, Public Transport was not needed.

As for the tea, I guess that means you must make a good brew. I used to work with a bloke who made everyone's tea and coffee in a long row, then briskly stirred all the tea and coffee with the same spoon. The resultant mix was really very special....:bored:

MS

[jayteeto]

I have to make the tea really, its the only way that I know exactly what is in the cup :yuk:

No offence taken, get on to the CAA website if you have a lot of time to spare and have a look at CAP 612, the police air ops 'bible'. Its all there, from setup of unit to weather limits etc etc

[Max Shutterspeed]

I have to make the tea really, its the only way that I know exactly what is in the cup :yuk:Cappucino, Blackadder....?

No offence taken, get on to the CAA website if you have a lot of time to spare and have a look at CAP 612, the police air ops 'bible'. Its all there, from setup of unit to weather limits etc etcI might just take a squint if this wind doesn't drop....

So basically, they've got to change one machine which will cost a shedload of money and they're now thinking "maybe we can make do with just one.."

Is this rule change something they knew of a while ago, or are they just unlucky? Also, how many other operators are in the same boat? Sounds like the resale values will take a tumble.

[jayteeto]

They have actually got the manure in a pile and some units have formed a 'consortium' with a pretty much standard requirement for role equipment. They should get a good discount........... maybe. Everything has to be planned ahead, we are already looking at the next step for our unit, be it a new airframe or a 'mid-life' update for our 135T2. Airframe-wise we are happy, but camera systems have moved on at the pace of TV sets. Touchscreen / LCD / picture in picture are all coming down in price and enhance capability easily. Someone has to pay big bucks for the first refit to 'develop' the blueprint, it becomes cheaper after that.

[sunnywa]

"The T1 CDS machines do not comply with the night stab regulations coming in 2010"

As an interested observer from Down South, it seems that the CAA loves to make a rod for everyones back in the UK Police Air Support Units by making them operate the hardest possible way. Do they expect the weather to get worse in 2010 or the current machines to suddenly get the wobbles and fall out of the sky for this new stabilisation rule? You should send them the bill for the aircraft change overs to meet this new requirement.:ugh:

Or let you use NVG's to turn night into a green blob.:ok:

Rather you than me chaps. Oh yes, we still have those faceless people down here that juggle numbers and figures to meet a better outcome. I think it will eventually come down to having nothing illegal, so you don't need coppers. Think of the savings if everyone could do what they liked. Mind you, those bureaucrats will neer lose their jobs as they are too important.

Keep on smiling:rolleyes:

[tigerfish]

Sunnwa! It is easy to blame the CAA for the current position, but the facts are a little different.

It all stems back to a very dark night in 1997 when a Police A/C was departing its very rural location to join a vehicle pursuit. Just after take off the pilot ran into unseen but very low cloud & became disorientated. He attempted to return to base but crashed nearby. An observer was tragically killed.

Following the subsequent investigation the CAA required all units to have lasor cloud designators, pre & post take off & landing safety calls. and all Police machines coming into service from that time had to be Single Pilot IFR
(SPIFR).

All machines in Police service had to fully SPIFR compliant by the 31st March 2010. So you can see that the CAA actually gave operators 12 years notice of the requirement becoming absolute . Therefore you are being a little harsh in your comments. Yes the CAA rule us very hard but I suspect that the UK Police aviation safety record stands up fairly well against anywhere else.

Remember most UK units have one machine which is flown around the clock in some of the worst weather that Europe can throw. each machine averages about 1,000 hrs per year. Now with all that in mind, plus a very good safety record and a very good arrest rate ask yourself again, - have the CAA got it so wrong?

Tigerfish

[Helinut]

All the UK police aviation rules are essentially agreed between the CAA and the Home Office. So it is not entirely fair to just blame the CAA. Of course, a "better" man than I has given his view about the Home Office too, but that is rather another question - I think the expression was "not fit for purpose" but the politician concerned is now spending more time with his family............

The way things are going the police will be contracting out air support to CCTV companies, flying microlights with Box Brownies with security guards as observers to save money......... :mad:

[zorab64]

Fortyodd2 (#13) - don't like to be picky but I think you meant to compare differences between CDS and CPDS, rather than between T1/T2, as it's not the engines that give the required stability, it's the avionic fit.

However, comparing both "weather-ability", & therefore availability & effectiveness, between an unstabilised AS355 or 135 CDS and a CPDS machine, give me a CPDS any day. When you can manage all the bells & whistles, it engenders a much higher feelgood/confidence factor should the weather turn sour.

Heliroute - at risk of inflaming the civvy argument again, I'd suggest that the modern police aircraft more requires a capable equipment manager, ground troop director, logical searcher, camera operator, multi-radio operator etc etc than a Police officer with the "understanding of the criminal mind". Yes, it can sometimes be useful but for much of the time the multi-tasking skills are more important IMHO - and certainly a smattering of civvies within a unit (not complete civilianisation, I agree) should have no detrimental effect whatsoever. It hasn't at Suffolk, anyway, over the last 5 years or so!:ok:

[Fly_For_Fun]

Zorba64
Why not complete civilianisation of the observer role?

[timex]

If we have to land to assist a Bobby in trouble the civvy in the cab has limited skills or options to assist. A Bobby can render proper assistance and arrest if required.

[timex]

Rumour 2: The use of recruiting PCSOs as observers isn't quite the full story. The plan was civvie observers, who would then be made PCSOs (subtle difference) which means they can be used for other duties if the aircraft is off line. True or false again?


False, the civ obs on the Unit is contracted as such and not a PCSO.

[ShyTorque]

Tigerfish,

The date of that accident was 10 October 1998. I was flying for the unit to the north and we had taken off a few hours previously and almost immediately hit very low cloud around 200 feet, much lower than forecast. My extreme bad weather plan (floppy stick, non-IFR machine) was always to lower the lever and descend straight ahead at low speed until visual beneath; thankfully it worked for us that night. We were able to fly a very low level circuit and land back at the pad but it stunned me to hear of the accident to our colleagues a few hours later and again when we heard what had happened. I think the other good thing coming from that accident investigation was that all base helipads had to be lit to a suitable standard. Our takeoff and landing area had no lighting whatsoever at that time.

A fully stabilised IFR machine is an expensive replacement but what price flight safety?

[Fortyodd2]

Zorab64 ~ you are being very picky. There are no T1 CPDS in the UK Police role or T2 CDS machines, as far as I am aware, in existence. Think you need to re read post 13 a bit more closely.

[quichemech]

T1 CPDS machines were delivered, G-WCAO being an example, however that machine was upgraded to T2.

[tigerfish]

Shy Torque!

My point exactly! I have nothing but admiration for the way UK Police Aviation has developed. Sadly accidents will happen in even the best run circles, but at least our system closely examines each occurence and where lessons need to be learned, learned they are! That is why I responded as I did to the person who seemed to be critisising the CAA. Although I do accept the subsequent post that clarified the input from the Home Office.

But arn't we getting off thread, which is about the threat to the North East ASU. Its not about Civi observers or anything like that. Its all about bean counters trying to save money at the expence of efficiency.

The real problem is that most of them were still in short trousers in the days before efficient air support was available. They don't understand what it was like in the days of extended car chases, ram raiding etc. They take modern photo reconnaisance for granted, have no idea of the value of top cover during public order etc etc. The only thing that the North East did wrong was not to shout about their successes loud enough. They are one of the best of a bloody good bunch, but sadly will probably will not be properly appreciated until they are no longer about.

A lesson for everyone?

Tigerfish.

[ShyTorque]

The crazy thing is that police helicopters were brought in using a business case which had already proven that big savings in ground manpower could be made. To now say that money can be saved by not having helicopters is surely beyond the logic of anyone but an accountant with a short term view.

[Whirlygig]

Oi ShyT, you should know better .... :}

I can assure everyone that, in the public sector, accountants have nothing to do with decisions of this level; they are never that senior!!!

Cheers

Whirls

[Fortyodd2]

Whirls,
Sadly, whilst the bean counters don't make these decisions, they are in a position where they have the ear of cash strapped & clueless senior management, (I deliberately didn't use the word leadership), who are desperate for new ideas on not spending money. Hence, people with no operational policing experience can dictate operational policies. Getting shot of our own forces financial director, who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing, would save enough to put 3 bobbies back on the beat as well as improving morale all round. As recent events locally have proved, saving money has cost us an absolute fortune!

ShyT, The business cases were not about savings in the number of bobbies on the ground but about the more efficient use of bobbies on the ground. Area search by heli takes 10 mins or, by 11 bobbies, 1 Sgt and a dog takes 4 hours. 10 mins later, the heli can be 15 miles away doing the same again. As the number of police dogs has been slashed and the number of helicopter hours cut more scrotes are "getting away with it". For the government of course this means fewer demands on the overstretched prison system and ...............
.................. !

[MAN777]

Just out of interest which UK ASUs are using civvy (non poice) air observers ?

[ShyTorque]

Whirls,

I knew you were an accountant but do you have a short term view? :)

ShyT, The business cases were not about savings in the number of bobbies on the ground but about the more efficient use of bobbies on the ground. Area search by heli takes 10 mins or, by 11 bobbies, 1 Sgt and a dog takes 4 hours. 10 mins later, the heli can be 15 miles away doing the same again. As the number of police dogs has been slashed and the number of helicopter hours cut more scrotes are "getting away with it".

Fortyodd2, thanks for that info.
Btw, I did have some idea already because I was CP of a UK Police ASU for two years. ;)

[Whirlygig]

Hence, people with no operational policing experience can dictate operational policies.
That'd be the clueless management then! :}

Sadly though, I know of at least TWO police forces in this country who have Finance Directors with no finance/accountancy qualification whatsoever. I find that scary - so should you!!!

Cheers

Whirls

[ShyTorque]

Why not? One PA allowed an unqualified pilot to do a bit of flying for them..... surely it just depends on how much BS is proferred... :)

[Helinut]

MAN 777,

At present there are civilian observers at Suffolk, Surrey & Hampshire. There could be others. A special cases are the police units that also do HEMS. They have paramedics that are not police and who act as observers for police jobs. A larger number of ASUs have civi UEOs (retired inspectors) some of whom occasionally fly as observers.

There are moves afoot for a lot more Units to have civi observers.

[Topic 5M]

I suppose NEASU could replace the T1 with an Islander? Put the clock back a few years. Retires to find flack-jacket :E

[J.A.F.O.]

At present there are civilian observers at Suffolk, Surrey & Hampshire.

Surrey? Are you sure?

[Helinut]

Yep. They got a bundle of civis when they went 24 hours.

[Brilliant Stuff]

This is dangerous ground IMHO to talk about civy observers.

As far as I know you can not have to civy observers fly together.

[zorab64]

FortyOdd2 - please don't take my attempt to clarify (especially for those less in the know) as criticism - I was being picky, but not incorrect! I have read #13 again & still find it slightly amibiguous, as both T1 CPDS and T2 CDS remain ECD options, or with P&W engines, of course! As quichemech points out, WCAO was one, Merseyside, Lancs and Luton were also temporary T1 CPDS machines until upgraded.
On a separate note, I can't help but concur with your comments @ #38!

Fly for Fun #29 - I think all would agree that complete civilianisation would go against the tenet of Police Aviation, however, as is all things, a mixture of Police & civvies often brings different and beneficial skills to a unit.:ok:

[Fly_For_Fun]

zorab 64.

I get your point, just wondered if there was a legislative reason for not having all civvies in observers role? Can 2 civvies work in the same aircraft? Can 1 still operate if single crewed? Given that they are all CAA agreed pax, police and civilian observers, is there a difference? just wondering!

[morris1]

I think we can safely say that the renaissance period for UK Police Aviation, has passed.

The country has run out of money, and theres nothing else to sell / rape/ murder in order to raise funds.

I see nothing ahead other than cuts in budgets / aircraft / staff.
The days of cops in helicopters are also numbered as you cannot fight the logic of numbers when the coffers are empty.

regionalised units doing nothing but firearms incidents, missing person searches and school visits are the future, with the odd cop somewhere, probably back at base listening in, trying their best to keep the task on track.

Any ex-mil observers / aircrew and of course retired police observers, can start to sharpen their pencils ready for the vacancies coming in, 'cos its only a matter of time. I do believe North Mids have just replaced a retired observer with a civilian..!

R.I.P. North East ASU..

[Brilliant Stuff]

Fly for Fun

As far as we are being told two civy observers can not be crewed together and are no unit crews them together.

Morris 1 they way you talk I might as well get the razor blades out.:(

[ShyTorque]

I do believe North Mids have just replaced a retired observer with a civilian..!


Was this civilian a retired observer? It's been done before when a certain UEO was replaced by a certain civilian with certain previous experience.

And why not, I ask. ;)

[Coconutty]

A brand new EC135 T2 or P2 with all the latest high spec role equipment,
plus additional ground equipment ( new computers to handle digital video imagery, digital downlink receivers etc etc ) = Approx £4.3million - probably less with "Bulk Purchase" - let's say £4 million.

Minus 40% Home Office Grant ( £1.6 million ) = £2.4 million

Minus resale value of EC135T1 classic & role equipment fitted ( £1.5 million ??, of which Home Office may claim 40% back ) ...
= £2.4 million - £540k = £1.86 million

Divided between a 3 Police force consortium = £620k each

Expected life of aircraft - 10 years+ = 62k per year.

This does not appear to be a HUGE amount to spend, especially when considering the IMPROVED service that would be achieveable with the new role equipment.

There will be less noise impact due to operating at greater distances / altitudes - a benefit of the more powerful camera equipment, huge improvements with the new technology Infra red cameras, and therefore in the ability and efficiency of searching for offenders / missing persons, an increased potential to engage with more covert tasks.

The improvements in technology can make the role of the aircraft more efficient, leading to improved results per flying hour.

When these benefits are examined it shows that there can be a good business case not only to purchase the new aircraft, but even to increase the annual budget for flying hours :D

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Fortyodd2]

"I do believe North Mids have just replaced a retired observer with a civilian..!"

Not yet we haven't!!

Coconutty, as the North East T1 is the World fleet leader with over 10,000 hours I think they would struggle to get £1.5 million for it. Furthermore, whilst the bulk purchase of the 5 airframes is certainly one of the better ideas to have come out of the Home Office, (and a big well done to OD for doing it), it is going to eat up the majority of Air support "40%" funding for the next few years ~ just when the units will have to find the funding for digital downlink.

[Coconutty]

.... They were only "ball park" figures, just to try and get a feel for the situation - does that mean the H.O. will NOT be funding these new aircaft to the tune of 40% ? - or will the cash be allocated between now and 2010 ?

If the "approx" figure of £620k each were correct, and they have all had 12 years notice to save up for it, they would only have had to put about £50k away each year with interest ! ( Wonder if they did ? )

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[ShyTorque]

"I do believe North Mids have just replaced a retired observer with a civilian..!"
Not yet we haven't!!


But do ask who the first UEO was ........ and who replaced him when he retired a couple of years later .... ;)

[tigerfish]

I guess that there is a real danger of us going off thread here, but this subject concerning the civilianisation of Police Air Observers posts is an important one!

I have to say that I have grave concerns over the use of Civilian support staff in this particular role. I was a serving Police officer for over 30 years and experienced the full spectrum of operational duty. During that time I had the pleasure of working with a rapidly expanding civilian staff and was appreciative of the enhanced value that they brought to the job.

However I would submit that the role of the Police Air Observer is just that little bit special, so as to move it outside of the range of suitability for civilianisation.

In the first instance, given that the main purpose of "Civilianisation" is usually either to save money by using less well paid civilian staff on none essential front line duties, or often to import technical expertise in an area that we are lacking, I am not sure that in this case the balance sheet stacks up for civilianisation.

Look at it this way,- By the time you have fully considered the wide range of skills and abilities required by a modern Police Air observer and then compared them against the civilian pay scale the argument already looks a bit iffy. Then add weekend working and shift allowance, and its getting even more so.

Then add to that already shakey balance sheet, the question of the lack of flexibility that civilianisation brings with it! By lack of flexibility I mean this :- more than one unit this year has suffered an extended period of being off line, - for several weeks. Machines were undergoing a mid life upgrade or other planned refurbishment.

The Police air Observers were re-assigned to patrol duties, in some cases getting a valuable reality check of being back at the sharp end. But what if they had been civilians? They have job descriptions, contracts of employment, and a Union! So what would you do with them? Send them home on gardening leave?

Then there is the question of Powers of arrest! Rural air units are often first on the scene of the crime! The helicopter can and quite often does, land and the Police crew effect an arrest. But a Civilian? Oh yes I have heard the proposal "lets make them specials". Thats not on! The training is different and that is not what they were intended for, they should certainly not be used to replace a regular officer. I suspect that the federation would have view on that!

Finally there is the question of public order incidents or major disaster. It has long been my experience that our forward (Bronze ) incident commanders have often been happy to had over local control of the incident to the helicopter overhead, they have the full overview after all. But would the Bronze be so willing to do that if they knew that it was a civilian crew up there? I think not!

So lets go back to the question of why? What are the real as opposed to theoretical advantages of civilianisation of this particular role? I am afraid that I cannot see any!

Tigerfish! ( Ol Grumpy)

P.S. & I forgot to say our system is one of the best in the world, So :-
"If it ain't broke don't fix it" !

[A.Agincourt]

Tigerfish: If you look at the 'Job Description' etc for Northumbria then most of the questions you pose are answered, certainly as far as that ASU is concerned. When not on flight duty and all other ASU responsibilities are exhausted, they are expected to perform as CSOs'. Yes you are right the task is far more complex but there are many people available out there either with the right skill set or who can be trained over the anticipated validation period.

I have sincere doubts about the validity of this direction since the offered salary will not attract those with the desired skill set in place. It is significantly less than reasonable but that is what this is all about, saving cash and you only get what you pay for.

Best Wishes

[tigerfish]

I accept your point on the fudging of job descriptions, but again I will point out that PCSO's have no power of arrest, only a very limited power of detention, i.e. only until a regular Police officer arrives etc etc. ( just wait until the legal eagles start work on that one! )

My point is that UK Police aviation has done an outstanding job in reducing and controling crime. If it has failed, it has been in in its inability to shout its successes to the rooftops! As a result, now that crime is slightly reducing
( If you accept the very massaged Home Office figures), the politicians and the bean counters will now try to find ways of reducing the resultant bill!

The problem is that the criminal does not play by the accepted rules, and once they realise that immediate air support is no longer there, they will have a field day! You obviously realise that,- and so do I, but the problem is that today many of our most Senior Police officers and most Police Authority members have no experience of the days before Police Air support was available. As a result, they do not appreciate what it was like to have to cope with extended vehicle pursuits, Ram raiding, & street Robberies! The introduction of Air support not only controled & markedly reduced those crimes, but also introduced an element of Officer safety, by recording for evidential purposes, assaults on Police officers etc.

Now, to reduce any of those vital elements, which we today take for granted, is to court disaster!

As I said before, - " If it ain't broke don't fix it! Certainly not to save a few bob! It will cost society a great deal more to claw back the advantages lost, once the criminal realises it's open season again!

An even more Grumpy Tigerfish!

[Fly_For_Fun]

Tiger (not as grumpy as you make out, I am sure :))

You make some interesting points regards civilian observers, I am sure that those civilians who are already employed in the role would take issue with some of your assumptions - not my place to do so, so a welcome input from them maybe required.


I do agree that if an ASU is cut back or dissolved the criminal elements will catch on very quickly and the subsequent rise in crime will be obvious. However the figures will only become apparent a year or so later, so the Chief that made the decision and got promoted on the back of the savings will be long gone. They don't seem to care about the long haul just short term gains for their own careers and prospects. (IMHO)

[Thomas coupling]

FortyOdd2, it was most certainly NOT the Home Office that realised bulk purchase. It was those EC135 User Group members that decided to combine efforts at a time when their a/c were coincidentally due for replacement because of the T1 limitation.
Ollie was invited on board AFTER the collaboration was established.

Perleeeze!

Hope all is well your end.

WT

[sss]

forgive me if i am wrong, but i think most civilian staff in the police can also go on strike if they wish, that is one advantage with a warranted officer he can only work to rule but he will still put his bum in the seat.

http://www.pcs.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=917180

[aeromys]

Surrey have three civvy observers, have had for over a year. They are allowed to fly together (after training and the year's probation) and have done so now.

They were'nt strictly civvies though, they were recruited internally and are two ex-bobbies and a SOCO, so have a fair bit of Police savvy which certainly made the transition a lot easier.

[Regain]

Someone in the Home Office needs a reality check. A civilian registered helicopter (albeit flying on a PAOC), civilian pilot and two civilian observers! Granted, at the moment you may be talking ex-mil/police but the precedent is set. What is the police if it is not police officers? Will PAOC/PAOM continue to grant exemptions to a civilian flight? Will the public be happy for GAT low flying day and night over their nice estates? Can it land anywhere?

Would you be happy with Highways Agency officers issuing speeding tickets? Now someone's bound to say there's no parallel there but I believe there is. And while I'm at it, PCSOs.................no I won't go there!

Why re-invent the wheel?

Too many question marks, I know, but one more. Do the Home Office actually know?

[Fly_For_Fun]

Regain Someone in the Home Office needs a reality check. A civilian registered helicopter (albeit flying on a PAOC), civilian pilot blah, blah, blah,Flying under "Public Transport" regulations with some easements.......what is your point?

[tigerfish]

More importantly, Do the Home Office actually care? It sems the bean counters rule the roost today.

Tigerfish.

[J.A.F.O.]

Surrey have three civvy observers, have had for over a year. They are allowed to fly together (after training and the year's probation) and have done so now.

They were'nt strictly civvies though, they were recruited internally and are two ex-bobbies and a SOCO, so have a fair bit of Police savvy which certainly made the transition a lot easier.

That's quite interesting.

I believe that recruiting direct to the role of air observer with no previous police experience is just plain wrong - and NO, military experience does not count.

I see no reason why a mix of bobbies and civvies on a unit shouldn't work.

While I disagree with almost everything tigerfish has said I don't disagree with the bit about it not saving vast amounts of money, at least not in the short term. So I fail to see quite what there is to gain.

[zorab64]

JAFO & others - need to be careful over the "preciousness" of the Police in justifying their Observer role, especially when a number of units have demonstrated succesful precedent in their use of civvies in Obs seats.

Air Observing is becoming increasingly scientific, rather than reliant upon Police intuition. The occasions (in many areas anyway) where the aircraft may be required to land are few & far between, so I'd suggest the argument for Police should be used sparingly and in proportion. Unless in a very rural location, landing the aircraft immediately renders its air effectiveness, and influence over what's going on on the ground, as nil. Whilst the basics of the science of searching are often forgotten by experienced Police Obs, there are plenty of people out there with more aviation & search experience than every one of a fresh box of newly trained Police Obs!!

So long as (and it's a big, so long as!) the right selection procedures are used, I think units may well find an improvement in overall competence as a result of the healthy competition that might be engendered between the two groups - CRM notwithstanding! :ok:

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Zorab64,

I agree with quite a few of your views. However, just to prove that no generalisation fits every bill, I once took an aircraft with 2 observers plus a line-checking DUEO up on a task in a holiday town on the South coast of the UK. A pursuit had come to an end with all 4 scrotes legging-it into a "rough" area, where 2 bobbies quickly found the driver but were themselves attracting the attention of quite a few undesirables. At the instigation of the DUEO, we landed on the seafront, 2 (quite senior, but very sprightly :) ) officers leapt out and sprinted off to join their colleagues while the one remaining bobby and I headed back into the overhead to monitor things. Only offline in air terms for a couple of minutes, but the extra 2 bods on the ground made all the difference. Not something we could've done with civvies or PCSOs. As you say, a rare occurrence but they do happen.

[Regain]

Fly For Fun

My point is that the police have certain powers and privileges that we would not expect to be given to civilians. Also worthy of consideration and in agreement with sss is the (current) police 'no strike' agreement and the seeming ability of warranted officers to make things work.

I should imagine those officers nearing retirement will have a keen interest in civilianisation and I don't blame them but like I said earlier, once the precedent is set, all can apply. The potential for a unit of intransigent, grumpy 'old sweat' men and women is another possibility.

And do we really expect a PCSO/Special observer will go on patrol when the aircraft is away? D*mn, another question mark.

[morris1]

Another to aspect to factor in. -

At the moment the cops on the ground know that the people above them, asking them to jump through gardens, stop that car, run after that youth, enter that house, --- are cops too. And they have done all these things themselves. a element of trust exists that:
a) they are not talking bollox
b) can judge whether a situation is safe or not.


As soon as the cops on the ground realise that the people above them, havent also dealt with all the **** and rubbish that they deal with daily, then I believe a huge attitude change will occur towards the unit.

The proof of the pudding may be when the first injury / fatality occurs during a pursuit when the fully civilian aircrew are overhead directing things. The IPCC and the CPS wont pull any punches.!

[Brilliant Stuff]

Morris you got it in one IMHO. But what do I know, I am only a civilian working with these brave men.

[J.A.F.O.]

As soon as the cops on the ground realise that the people above them, havent also dealt with all the **** and rubbish that they deal with daily, then I believe a huge attitude change will occur towards the unit.


You're wrong, simple as that. It hasn't happened where there are currently civvies so why should it happen elsewhere?

[Helinut]

You spend x million per year generating your best rapid response police unit having force wide cover. Its principal purpose is to respond to high risk and critical incidents.

You then fill it full of people who know virtually nothing about police work, the law, or pretty much anything apart from a short course in map reading and how to use a camera. You then expect that unit to provide on scene command to those sorts of incidents.

So that you can save virtually nothing.

Give me a break :ugh:

[Of course, this only matters if you want police forces to catch criminals, try and keep ordinary people safe and prevent terrorism. If you are just following the latest political agenda none of this matters]

P.S. JAFO - How do you know it hasn't happened?

[Aerodynamik]

Why have Officers/NCO's flying in Afghanistan and Iraq with the army/marines. You don't have to be a soldier to fly a helicopter and the aircrews rarely have to land and use their soldering skills. It could easily be done by civies thereby freeing up the squaddies to be where they should be -on the ground fighting. May be they could use retired soldiers.

[Fly_For_Fun]

You then fill it full of people who know virtually nothing about police work, the law, or pretty much anything apart from a short course in map reading and how to use a camera.


I am sure the civy air observers would hsve something to say about that.


Why have Officers/NCO's flying in Afghanistan and Iraq with the army/marines. You don't have to be a soldier to fly a helicopter and the aircrews rarely have to land and use their soldering skills. It could easily be done by civies thereby freeing up the squaddies to be where they should be -on the ground fighting. May be they could use retired soldiers.


What are you dribbling on about????

[SilsoeSid]

AerodynamikWhy have Officers/NCO's flying in Afghanistan and Iraq with the army/marines. You don't have to be a soldier to fly a helicopter and the aircrews rarely have to land and use their soldering skills. It could easily be done by civies thereby freeing up the squaddies to be where they should be -on the ground fighting. May be they could use retired soldiers.

I think possibly Aerodynamik hasn't haven't heard of Jugroom Fort!


http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/jugroom.jpg

The 2 on the right, they be pyluts!

Reading the point of Aerodynamiks post, the last sentence seems to cancel out the whole of the argument!

[Fly_For_Fun]

Nice one Silsoe.

Shame they can't shoot straight, not when I knew them anyway.;)

[tigerfish]

This subject clearly does stir up a lot of heat, but I think a couple of the contributors are giving the impression that there are a lot more civilian observers than there really are.
I am not sure of the accurate count but lets say of the 27 air units in the UK they will on average have about 8 observers each, some more some less. But that gives a total observer strength of 216 ( As I said a rough rule of thumb ).
Of that 216 I would be surprised if the total number of civilian observers exceeded 16.
In the current climate that figure will increase, - but does need to be carefully handled.
Just think about it for a moment. - Each UK Police Heli is currently coming out at about £4.5m. It will rank as one of the force's major expenditures. It follows therefore that it must be used to the greatest level of operational effectivness. It is simply too costly and valuable to be used as an HR experiment.

Now that is NOT to say that an element of civilianisation might not be a good thing. There are, I agree, a number of Ex military service air observers etc etc who would be idealy suited. But remember - this is primarily a crime fighting tool, - nothing more & nothing less. Will they have the ingrained police instinct which might just provide the edge in a difficult vehicle pursuit.

As I said a touchy subject & one that is best thought through properly rather than having a closed mind - in either direction.

But hey! We are getting way off the original thread of this subject!

Tigerfish.

[Helinut]

It may well be a difficult thing to understand for those not involved. This may explain why some senior police officers do not appear to understand about police aviation either. :hmm:

It comes down to a pretty clear choice. Do you want your expensive police helicopter to be a mobile CCTV van in the air or a rapid response police unit, actively getting involved in critical tasks and frequently making a good positive result out of nothing. If the former, then in my view when money is tight, it does not provide very good value for money, and the best thing might be to get rid of it completely - that WOULD save a significant sum.

Using police officers as observers does not guarantee that sort of thief-taking skill, but between two of them it is MUCH more likely.

Its a halfp'rth of tar argument really.

All IMHO, of course.

[RAFEmployee]

Man, such a nice helicopter.

Maybe when I retire :(

[Fly_For_Fun]

RAFEmployee

At 65 all things being equal.

[Aerodynamik]

I'm sure their is the odd occasion when a military helicopter would have land and the pilot have to do soldier sh!t. But likewise I'm sure there are odd occasions when a police helicopter would have to land and the observers do policing sh!t.

Exactly the same scenario as far as I am concerned! If it is good enough to civilianise the observers to get more coppers on the street why not civilianise the army pilots to get more soldiers on the ground.

Or is it that their skills and experiences gained at having once been at the sharp end actually count for something?

[ShyTorque]

To routinely use a pilot as a soldier would not be the best way to use either the man or the machine!

Are you proposing that a man who has needed very expensive and specialist training should be given the same role as a soldier? Is the man actually more use on the ground or in the air? A helicopter should be parked up while a firefight takes place? That is something the A Team used to do but no-one ever actually got shot on that kids' programme.

A helicopter on the ground is an easy, vulnerable and valuable target and will attract a lot of enemy attention. What happens if the pilot takes a round, can't fly the aircraft but the pax need pulling out? The whole patrol and the aircraft could be lost. Worse still, it could fall into enemy hands.

It just doesn't happen like that, for good reason.

[tigerfish]

AERODYNAMIK. I find it hard to believe that you do not understand the difference between a Police Officer and a civilian in this operational " On the Ground " scenario! Is all about one having a power of arrest and the other not! The Police officer can arrest anyone who he suspects of committing a criminal offence. The civilian cannot,- its as simple as that.

The question of whether it is wise to risk the A/C by committing to a landing is an entirely different matter, and will depend entirely on the circumstances obtaining at the time. It should not happen often, - but there are circumstances where it is necessary, and these will usually require the full powers and skill of a fully sworn police officer.

Tigerfish!

[MerryDown]

We are all missing something,

The reason police officers are now obsolete is because the current government have re-invented the police. They are called PCSOs, has nobody been watching the news ? They even have their own TV show called "Life on the beat"

Bit of a stuttering start, but once they have all the powers of a constable they can take over the police entirely. They will have no long term impact on police pension budgets and can be sacked much easier. They take less training as they are clearly better than constables. They will be able to specialise into most of the current police specialisms as they take over. Oh and the most important part , THEY ARE CHEAPER !

Leaving the good old fashioned useless obsolete police officer to drive a panda for thirty years, being assaulted on average twice a year, not getting a pay rise, and dealing with the full wrath of todays underclass $h*te we see in the news every day. What a job they have, they dont realise how lucky they are to be cops.:=

Back to the aviation slant now the rant is done, the current slaver with the neasu consortium has been resolved as of today. The ec135s are to be sold and the consortium will look to recruit civilian observers to crew the new aircraft. They intend buying about six in total and locating them at key FOBs in the consortium area, thereby providing "seamless" air support cover.

Sorry for using the management speak "seamless" word, I wanted to sound dynamic and not obsolete but I cuddent.

The role equipment will be strapped to the observers calf, a fold down rumble seat will be fitted for when the unit has attachments , and also the carriage of firearms officers & dog handlers. Due to the low risk / high safety of the aircraft, observers are to be allowed to wear shorts in the summer. It also has "get me home" GPS/TFR should it go inadvertent IMC etc. :D

Out with the old and in with the new:ugh:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=766_1195374125


Personally I applaud modernisation & improvements , but lets be right folks the current government is slashing lumps out of more than the police.

Its been a pleasure !

Good Night a God Bless Y:Ou all

[bubbler]

And this lot could be above you Policing the skies as Observers after accidently shooting a mate:

Gun injuries soar as police 'experts' blast themselves and colleagues by mistake

The number of armed police officers accidentally shooting themselves – and other colleagues – has soared in the past five years. Now, nearly half of all injuries caused by police shootings are the result of officers blasting themselves or a colleague, often during bungled training and demonstrations. Since 2003, there have been seven incidents in which armed police injured themselves or a fellow officer due to the careless handling of a gun, compared to just four in the previous 12 years.

www.dailymail.co.uk/pa...ge_id=1770 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=535071&in_page_id=1770)

[tigerfish]

Bubbler, I take it you are yet another useless daily Mail reporter.
Before you print such one sided and anti police "News", - perhaps you might just check on the rate of firearms deployments over the same period!

Only a very few years ago, such deployments were few and far between. Today they tend to be almost hourly. It is therefor not so surprising, -
( Although admittedly worrying) that such accidents do occur. I am aware that the training regime is being examined.

The Police Service has enough on its plate without rubbish newspapers like the daily mail mounting almost constant attacks. Its funny how mail reporters always know how to do it better! I doubt if any of them have ever placed their selves in harms way, & certainly do not understand that sort of pressure!

Tigerfish!

[Helinut]

bubbler,

Not that it is relevant to this thread, but I would suggest that only 7 incidents over that period is a remarkably good record, given the amount of firearms work done by UK police these days. There isn't such a thing as risk-free anything, as any pilot shoudl tell you.

[quichemech]

So, to get back on thread and away from the whys and wherefores of who sits in the aircraft.:ugh:

Is the unit closing or not?:rolleyes:

[Max Shutterspeed]

My guess is yes, it will close. Just because my cynical experience of this type of thing is that politicians / beancounters make a decision in private, then go about creating the circumstances to justify it.

Remember, just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not all out to get you...

Max

PS Traffic cop friend of mine is not looking forward to the extended car pursuits without support from overhead...

[ShyTorque]

If the unit does close, I hope someone begins taking stats on the numbers of vehicle pursuits before and after and the relative outcomes of them.

[morris1]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7299935.stm

when I see stories like this, it makes me want to run at a brick wall head first and hope I wake up in the real world..!! :ugh:

however... looks like the 330 million per year will continue to be spent....(wasted)

Now i dont know what the numbers are, but im pretty sure that this money would cover the costs of all the uk ASUs, provide new a/c, and have some left over for R&D and a bit of change for some shiny bits of kit..!!

North East ASU, let the bean counters blame anything except lack of money..!! theres plenty being spent, just not in the right place.

Surely if we just keep catching the crims and banging 'em away then the problem will sort itself out..?? :mad:

[MerryDown]

Re the BBC article above, I can say I have seen these programs in use. They are really good.:eek:

In all the addicts Ive ever met I can only think of one or two its worked for, most of them prefer the free meth handout then off to screw a house/shoplift to fund there next bag of gear.

These strategies are all well and good, but £33o million is ok as long as its not to the detriment of the "other" services taking drug crime on head first.
Pink & Fluffy has its place, but so does knocking heads together and jailing folk.

Policing is about layers, bigger problems you apply more layers. Tough hard pressed areas need more layers, conversely middle england doesnt see cops as statistically nothing happens, hence no police.

All aspects of policing are relevant to a community, work in schools, covert policing, community based , traffic enforcement they all are layers.The NE asu is part of that layering system, and based about its ongoing cost it is being cut.

Police budgets are allegedly smalller , the NE asu issue will be about cost, it cannot be anything else.

Why on earth would you decrease/divide/reduce/ a service which can provide 24 hour cover to the north east 365 days per year, I argue thats efficiency !! not one helicopter on 18 hours a day full of PCSOs, if anyone can offer an argument based around performance given the two options Im all ears to hear it :D

Readers will recall the huge axe wielded in the Armed Forces in the 80s by the tory government. All disgused as leaner/better equipped/better trained/flexible all the usual crap they talk, look at the pressures now on our forces.

Its now the turn of the UK police to be leaner/better equipped/better trained & flexible:ugh:


Merry but NOT down :ok::ok::ok:

[bubbler]

So any more news on the continuing saga of North East Police Aviation. Last rumour I heard it was going down to 1 aircraft with reduced hours based in the Durham area?

[jamier]

Its going, They gave 1 years notice a few days ago so that helicopter from Teesside airport(sorry durham tees valley) will most probably be moved upto newcastle airport?

[Max Shutterspeed]

Its going, They gave 1 years notice a few days ago so that helicopter from Teesside airport(sorry durham tees valley) will most probably be moved upto newcastle airport?

No, it's the one that doesn't meet the new regs. Looks like it'll be sold and the one in Newcastle will be it.

The Scallies will be thrilled.....:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Droopy]

Err.. I thought the one at Newcastle was the one that didn't meet the new regs.....highest time CDS machine etc etc, nearly as smelly as G-PASF before it went the journey...

[Max Shutterspeed]

"I stand corrected" said the man in the orthopeadic shoes.....Just re-read the thread.

So why are we down here in the sarf of the area losing the machine to go up to Newcastle?

Or will it be based mid way in Durham somehwere and be rotors-turning 24/7 with hot refuelling?

Max

[bubbler]

So take it the CSO`s that they have just employed will be looking for another job. Last in - first out. Cant see them losing a helicopter and sacking all the cops whilst employing civvies. Think of the uproar.

[timex]

So take it the CSO`s that they have just employed will be looking for another job. Last in - first out. Cant see them losing a helicopter and sacking all the cops whilst employing civvies. Think of the uproar.

You are going for a bite aren't you.........?

[Topic 5M]

At great risk of returning to the thread:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7324420.stm

Looks like a 50% cut. :(

[tigerfish]

Who would have crewed it seems immaterial now. Just wait until the scroats get to realise, - almost no immediate air cover! "Whoopee fill your boots!"

One of the most shortsighted Policing decisions in recent times. - They had good cover, but are blowing it! When they eventually have to recover the situation it will have cost them far more than they save. I just hope that the cost is in property and efficiency, and not in lives!

Tigerfish

[Droopy]

I just hope that the cost is in property and efficiency, and not in lives!


I believe the official approach is that "the situation will be managed" :ugh:

[ShyTorque]

No doubt in a few years time, someone else will get promoted after another scheme to cut costs by greatly boosting efficiency.....by buying a helicopter. :rolleyes:

[Tandemrotor]

As a founding member of the southern NEASU, I am very saddened to hear of this news! I can't recall how long it took to fly from the Northern point of the 3 counties, to the South, but I know it's a very long time. This seems extremely short sighted 'luddite' behaviour! But nothing surprises me any more under the penny pinching, short termism tax regime of this government!

As for that "smelly G-PASF", it was one of the newer ships way back when! I recall and flew, the even smellier (and of course smaller!) G-PASA.

(Is JM still at NEASU? - Many thanks)

[Helinut]

The comment from the ACPO man is a delight. If having a second helicopter makes no significant difference (as he is saying) why have they not resigned for wasting taxpayers money since the second machine was bought by them? They will say whatever suits.........

[Brilliant Stuff]

Tandemrotor you have my condolences.:{:{

This madness needs to stop!!!

I feel for the population who are the ones who will be suffering.

[bubbler]

Quote:
So take it the CSO`s that they have just employed will be looking for another job. Last in - first out. Cant see them losing a helicopter and sacking all the cops whilst employing civvies. Think of the uproar.
Quote:
You are going for a bite aren't you.........?

No was a genuine observation, just think that these civvies would have been sold a job which quite clearly now doesnt exist. These lads probably gave up jobs elsewhere to go and work for the Police helicopter only to find now that the workforce and helicopters are slashed by half. Cant see the beanstealers even trying to put up an argument to keep them. The savings have been made by the loss of the helicopter and the subsequent necessary reduction in manpower. The experienced Cops will be kept. As I said earlier last in first out.

[timex]

Bubbler we only have one PCSO on line at the moment and like all the future guys he has a contract, the Police will no doubt get the shafting as they were going to be moved on anyway.. Lousy decision.


Tandem JM is still ill after his latest dink, he works for PDG flying the BO105 at Otterburn.

[MerryDown]

As for the pcso s coming to NE asu , I will put good money the management will employ that frequently used "policy" of last in stays the longest.

Or if it suited them , last in first out.

Or he he knows least and argues lesser stays or vice versa.

Or in fact any combination of short term half arsed , lack of forsesight ,
make it up as you go, (Does my CV look good Jacqui?) policies. All of which at any time can be made/altered/deleted/noted/ignored to suit.

There is little doubt the present cost cutting being done with NE asu will ensure the experience gets binned and the inexperienced are retained, you all miss the vital word "CHEAPER".

Why on earth do you need a cop in a Police helicopter, why ?

I often question why the army dont employ railway signallers to be AAC forward air observers, it just makes good sense surely ?

We all need to think outside the box, and embrace the axe of modernisation sweeping across the countries Police forces.


Down&Merry

:ok::ok::ok:

[tigerfish]

Merrydown!

"Why on Earth do you need a cop in a Police Helicopter, Why?"

'Cos when you spend £4.5m of public money on getting the best kit you can buy, you have a duty of care to the public to get the best out of it! Thats why!

The Police Helicopter is predominantly a crime fighting tool. A police officer with several years of Policing experience behind him or her is better equipped to get the best out of that resource than any well intentioned but lacking in Police experience PCSO.

I have a relative who is aircrew in the services. He has over 3,000 hrs as an observer and in many ways would fulfill the role requirement. But he would be the first to admit that he is not suited to spotting the criminal from out of the crowd.

I say again these are expensive but seriously cost effective tools. But their effectiveness can be dramatically reduced if the crewing is not of the very best. Do you want to even risk, - not getting the best out of your huge investment?

Tigerfish.

[MerryDown]

Tigerfish,

I speak with sarcasm in my thread, you must have missed it. The Tigerfish has bitten.

Thank You for your support.


Merry:D

[tigerfish]

Merrydown,

Actually I did recognise the sarcasm and realised that I was laying myself open to being accused of "biting". But over the years I have developed a huge admiration for what you and the others have built up. It was arguably the best in the world. Certainly the best equipped, and the best organised and the best led ( At the front end ).

It's a pity that so many of todays ACPO are so blind to real value. It used to be said that accountants allegedly "knew the cost of everything, and the value of nothing" But today I fear that that sickness has spread. The butterflies of course will move on before their folly bites them.

Tigerfish ( Totally dis-spirited, brassed orf & ready to bite anything! )

[Fly_For_Fun]

Are police helicopters a version of CCTV, but airborne. It then follows that anyone could be trained to carry out the observers role vis-à-vis CCTV operators who are invariably civilians. Leaving police officers to do what they do best, catch criminals and protect the public on the ground.

[timex]

Are police helicopters a version of CCTV, but airborne. It then follows that anyone could be trained to carry out the observers role vis-à-vis CCTV operators who are invariably civilians. Leaving police officers to do what they do best, catch criminals and protect the public on the ground.

Sadly the point you make is overly simplistic, the job is more than just a camera operator.

[Helinut]

I suspect that Fly for Fun must be a superintendent or ACPO.........:ugh:

But just in case he isn't, a police helicopter should be FAR more than a flying CCTV. It is when crewed by police officers. If it were crewed by non-police officers then flying CCTV is exactly what it becomes

[J.A.F.O.]

Helinut

Care to provide examples?

[PANews]

It is tempting to wonder whether getting rid of the fixed wing is not ultimately the problem at NEASU.

Many of you will know that the said fixed wing fell out of favour because it was regularly on extended maintenance.

An Islander problem no doubt, but generally speaking fixed wing though cheaper overall are more time and labour intensive when compared with helicopters for say an annual. Anyway that it appears was NEASU's perception.

Having rid themselves of the dead weight of the fixed wing they now have two pretty efficient [if expensive] helicopters doing 'twice' the work where [say] one and a half was sufficient before. Maybe that skewed the efficiency numbers and gave ACPO a cost effecive line that makes do with one?

Tin hat on...............

[tigerfish]

Once again we have allowed the fringe consideration of "who crews" to Hijack discussion away from the central thread, which was the reported planned reduction of air cover to the three County elements of Northumbria, -
( Newcastle ) Durham and Cleveland.

I understand that it is Northumbria who are allegedly the prime mover in proposing the reduction of two aircraft down to one, yet at the same time it is they that are insisting that the remaining EC135T2 is based at Newcastle International, - conveniently close to Newcastle itself. Cleveland on the other hand who support the retention of two machines, one based at Newcastle and the other at Teeside, will lose out badly when the second machine is withdrawn from Teeside. ( Or have I got it all wrong )?

Either way one machine will never efficiently cover the huge area encompassed by the existing consortium! It is pure folly.

Tigerfish

[Northskycop]

There is a key reason for two aircraft in this area. The North East ASU have NO air support unit neighbours. They provide mutual aid into Cumbria, Lothian and Borders and North Yorkshire. So when you have two aircraft, management of maintenance schedules ensures you always have an aircraft available. Now when you have one aircraft, when that goes down for a 400 hr for a week you have ........................ errrr ............... no access to any aircraft, as not even your neighbours have one. Now Mr ACPO, how does that equate to having adequate cover from one aircraft. There are no Eurocopter relief aircraft.

There will be times when there no air cover. Now would this have been the same outcome had the glasgow airport bomber decided to drive into Teeside airport instead.

As you say, these same people agreed the business case for a new second EC135 two years ago.

[morris1]

Ah.... maybe thats the grand plan....

Teesside will do the same as North Yorks Police do, and get the military SAR to do all their missing person searches for them..!
:E

[Fortyodd2]

NorthSkyCop,
Spot on matey. However, as Jayteetoo pointed out very early on in this thread, someone in Headquarters with a career umbrella the size of a circus tent has already produced graphs and a power point presentation to show just how efficient 1 aircraft is compared to 2. In fact, same individual is already hard at work on another powerpoint to show that since the 2nd aircraft has gone, the level of crime has actually fallen by half! :ugh: Ergo, remove the remaining aircraft and there will be no crime.................................:D







Wow! that's lucky ~ looks like I'm the 999,999th person online and I've won an Audi A3!!! .....................................................Not

[MerryDown]

Another issue worthy of note is the casevac facility that NE asu provides to the region, and region I mean the neighbouring forces too.

The 2 aircraft often work in direct support of the local air ambulances, and will help out whenever asked. However once the helimeds are hangared up at night the only available resources to do this are the NE asu aircraft. SAR is an option but I understand they are on standby at night of around 30-60 minutes response time. I will stand corrected folks ?

The NE asu have excellent comms facilities and subsequently are aware of any unfolding incidents more or less as they happen, subsequently their response times are measured in how long it takes to re-role the aircraft and head off. So while SAR offers infinitely more expertise at scene with their highly skilled crews, they will generally always be 30-60 minutes behind a NE asu aircraft.

The Golden Hour Gets Longer:ugh:

This is not a "poke" at any other of the emergency services available to the North east region, The NE asu is part of the big pie that lies over the good folk of this region, other pie members are the North East Air Ambulance & the RAF. The NE asu works very efficiently not only at catching criminals, but also works very well alongside more specialist trauma care, at scenes of major incidents/road accidents etc etc.

The pie is being sliced up, a smaller pie is no good to anyone, a smaller pie does not feed as many people, a smaller pie satisfies nobody, A smaller pie is cheaper. :ugh:

The moral behind this post ?

Nobody likes a small pie ! , Especially a small cheap pie !:=

[Fly_For_Fun]

Has the aircraft been removed from service already? If so what has happened to the observers and Pilots?

[timex]

Funnily enough after being told that "2 aircraft were not needed and that they never get airborne at the same time", was it just me or did anyone else see both aircraft working over the city and surrounding area during the local derby?


Curious

[bubbler]

Seen on telly this morning that they are using this argument to try and keep both the helicopters. Spoke to one of the NEASU lads a couple of days ago and he reckons morale is lower than a snakes a*se

[tigerfish]

Its all over. The monkeys have taken over the zoo!

Open season coming for the scroats. How long before they find out!

Tigerfish.

[bubbler]

Heard from someone at Neasu that Cleveland may be going it alone with a fixed wing asset when they lose the helicopter to Northumbria. Also heard the civvie will be on his way to the dole office soon as they have decided to man the machines only with cops. Someone has seen sense.

[Max Shutterspeed]

Heard from someone at Neasu that Cleveland may be going it alone with a fixed wing asset when they lose the helicopter to Northumbria. Also heard the civvie will be on his way to the dole office soon as they have decided to man the machines only with cops. Someone has seen sense.

Wot, back to the droning Islander on full flap?

MS

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Well that seems to be the common trait here for the decision makers, from government level right to the senior management.
It’s getting worse and the papers today seem to point to labour now realising that there not going to get in next time round. (Not that any other party will be any better)
Police air support is expensive there is no getting around that, eurocopter uk don’t help much by adding so much extra money onto the cost of common parts. But with a tool that gets used more and more each day and for some of the most serious and dangerous tasks why would you want any one inside that aircraft who is not the best person for the job.
Some one who has been on the front line, who has chased a car at high speed, who has chased an offender in the dark, who has been on a firearms unit and knows how difficult it really is pointing a gun at some one. Who has held the hand of a dying person at the scene of an accident, who has has to tell a family member that there Alzheimer’s suffering mother has been found dead in a field. Has a PCSO, NO has a special NO.

All these are jobs where a police helicopter makes a difference it makes me sick to live in a country where the people in charge put a price on a person’s life.

[MightyGem]

Questions asked in Parliament today:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7397762.stm

[Max Shutterspeed]

Questions asked in Parliament today:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7397762.stm

An MP covering his arse, or something with real substance?

MS

[Fly_For_Fun]

Perhaps this could be the shove that the Home Office needs to bring all police helicopter operations into central government ownership, a national air support strategy and coming into line with mil type regs to get away from the "public transport" plasi-cuffs. IMHO.

[timmy2shoes]

:= Instead of going on an anti Special Constable and PCSO rant
typical police federation stuff very little fact just throw mud
"all cops are heroes and everyone else are also ran’s "

You have no Knowledge of what the above officers have done in their service
and it is insulting to dismiss their roles .

Specials give their time freely to help the police service and instead of belittling them you should be supporting them and be grateful that there are still members of public who want to help the police service

PCSOs are daily dealing with a lot of the Mickey mouse jobs that Proper coppers wouldn’t want to do and don’t need a cop anyway

I am sure that you are a very experienced and valuable member of the police service and someone who it is vital is retained on the ASU
But you do yourself no justice by the disrespect you seem to show your fellow officers.
How many PCSOs and Specials go on and join the police force!!
The issues facing the Air support unit are far too serious to waste time looking for easy scapegoats.

[whoateallthepies]

MerryDown
Just wanted to agree with your pie analogy http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[MerryDown]

The pie thread was a pleasure pleased you enjoyed, no offence though honest....:ok:


PS Apparently the Government minister responding to MP Frank Cooks debate has hinted extra funding may be available, thats really good of them I think !

[I]However the funding, I would guess would have been available to any Police force looking to secure air support purchasing of upgrades and or new aircraft. So its not new money at all, the all talk pap. Its common knowledge what drives the current decisions, and who is driving the change.....

I hope Mr Cooks representations on behalf of his public will have the movers and modernisers looking very closely at their current curriculum vitaes, they may not be so fat,full and sound reading as they believe.

Yours respectfully


Chalfont DuPap

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Timmy
It’s not a PCSO /Special rant at all. Both have there place in a modern police force. The point is that forces are just trying to save money and after spending 4.5 mill getting the best kit on a great aircraft why then play the penny pinching game.

Let’s face it would you put a low hour CPL(H) into a police role machine because it’s cheaper. So why go down the line of putting civilians in the aircraft to save money. Then to fill the hole of them not being police officers make them specials or PCSO’s ( not that there are police officers at all).

But infact when you look at shift allowance, weekend working, travelling expenses, night allowance and the fact that they can say no and not turn up for work. There are not actually cheaper at all.

There are some very willing and able officers who go onto being police constables, there are also some very poor police constables who should not be in the job. But when forces talk so much about best value why put the wrong people in the wrong job just to save money. It makes no sense at all. Lets face it the bean counters in this industry have absolutely no idea what happens at the pointy end and I know they don’t care. They would much rather save a pound today and pay a million out next year in litigation. (comments made which can be proved)

Going back onto the topic of this thread the only reason a police force is deciding to cut an aircraft is so that decision maker can get promoted.

[Max Shutterspeed]

Going back onto the topic of this thread the only reason a police force is deciding to cut an aircraft is so that decision maker can get promoted.

Can anyone get proof of that and name names?

Might just get an MP excited enough to do something..

MS

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

I don't know the area but I did here that it was a female of higher rank??


but this is a rumor network

[bubbler]

Sounds like the wheels are coming off at NEASU, heard that Cleveland are going it alone, calling Northumbria`s bluff. Northumbria bean counters are in a panic. Also heard that one of the plastic observer CSO types has already been moved on, the civvie observer will be on his way very soon and that most of the experienced Cop observers have already jumped ship or are looking for other posts away from NEASU.

Unit and Senior Management should stand up and answer the critics. Its a pity that whilst they are counting the savings in short term monetary terms they havent realised that they have killed off a succesful and professional unit. Long term this decision is going to prove to be one of the most short sighted and costly made.

[Max Shutterspeed]

Sounds like the wheels are coming off at NEASU, heard that Cleveland are going it alone,

Here's the other thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=328060

MS

[bubbler]

Been away for a while, whats the latest with the shennanigans at NEASU then, have they all split already, are they staying together, has the civvie been pushed yet, are they getting new aircraft as the Home Office seemed to imply or are things just dragging on?

[bubbler]

Guess from the lack of replies the NEASU situation has died down and everything is just hunky dory. Or have management spoke and no one is posting.

[Max Shutterspeed]

Dunno.

The DTV based one has been busy, though. Was even out grafting in the howling gales on Sunday:ok:

The sound track generally goes:

car sirens > silence > rotor slap > fenestron whine > intimidating hovering sounds and more whining noise > more sirens > back to silence....

MS

[timex]

Nothing to discuss, NEASU will split in under a year. Already been mentioned in the various local rags.

[bubbler]

"Bubbler we only have one PCSO on line at the moment and like all the future guys he has a contract, the Police will no doubt get the shafting as they were going to be moved on anyway.. Lousy decision."


Heard from a NEASU cop that the original civvie has been given the push despite having a contract and perfectly able to make the grade. Just the establishment wanted him out. Also the 2 other pet civvies will end up going the same way in a few months then the bosses can say "We tried civillianisation but it didnt work". Also heard Northumbria wont be able to afford 24/7 ops when they go it alone. A sad state of affairs.

[bubbler]

So what is happening at NEASU these days? Has everyone kissed and made up or is the consortium split still happening?

[Max Shutterspeed]

Last rumour I heard was that they were still planning to go solo. Been nothing in the local press.

MS

[PANews]

If they are to buy their own aircraft for use from Teesside they will need finance. The most public display of this will be reports of the police authority meetings - that will be local newspapers - but meanwhile they will need to seek additional finance from the Home Office.

September is the time for such bids for finance to go into the Home Office [now] and no announcement on the success, or otherwise, of any bid will be made public until January 2009.

Bear in mind that there are at least five other operations seeking HO finance to replace their aircraft at the moment.