Emergency exit seats

[chrisr150]

Can one of the resident CC (Tightslot, are you there?!) answer a question for me...

Was flying MAN-AMS on the Big Blue airline recently. 734, roughly 35 pax on board. Everyone shifted back to behind row 18 for weight & balance reasons, maybe one or two in biz. Hence, not a single overwing exit seat was occupied. The closest available person to the exits was at least 5 rows away and I noticed they weren't briefed in the usual manner about opening the hatch. Is it permitted to have emergency exit seats unoccupied, or is it dependent on how many pax on board and where they are seated?

[PAXboy]

One for the budding FAQ??? :)

[chrisr150]

Quite possibly one for FAQ's, but I'll let tightslot do the honours!

I would add I know it's usual (essential?) for an able bodied person to be sat at each exit (CC for main doors, pax for overwings), but are the rules any different for a partially loaded flight? I also know its commonplace for spare CC to take up pax seats at overwing exits if there are no suitable pax to occupy them - my question - have the airline made a booboo worth complaining about?

[matblack]

I fly weekly and on a number of occasions on lightly loaded flights I've been asked to move to an empty exit row in order that someone able bodied can open the exit door quickly. When flying with BA, RYR, EZY I also get a verbal instruction on how to use the door. It doesn't seem to follow with every airline however.

[theskyboy]

At BA the rule is that there must be someone at the over-wing exits when the passenger load is more than 50%. The thinking behind it is that an evacuation using the main doors on a light load can be done in the required amount of time. I would also imagine, that when the trim is critical, as you have alluded to in your post, it is more important to have the passengers correctly seated around the aircraft.

[chrisr150]

theskyboy

Thats what I thought was the case on this flight, but hasn't anyone considered the possibility that the main doors may be unusable? In which case, no one is seated by an overwing exit, neither have they been briefed as to how and when to open said exits...

[Pontius Navigator]

I have been in the exit seat on an Irish airline several times, we split and leg it for the aircraft. I carry the bags, Mrs PN gets the seats.

No once have I been briefed.

Same on birdseed airlines although there was a CC in the seat opposite. Perhaps they can see that I examine the mechanism closely and look suitably nervous/attentive.:}

[theskyboy]

I'm sure it has been considered but it's all about calculated risks and probability.

IE The probability of having an evacuation with a minimal load when the main doors are all unuseable vs. the aircraft being out of trim leading to an incident on take off / landing etc.

Just because passengers haven't been briefed on the operation of an overwing exit, doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to open them.

If there are cabin crew in the one of the over wing seats, then it is not necesary to brief passengers.


tsb

[Pontius Navigator]

IE The probability of having an evacuation with a minimal load

On the Irish airline>

Just because passengers haven't been briefed on the operation of an overwing exit, doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to open them.

True.

However on one drill, pull as I could I could not get the window out. My instructor tried too and he could not do it either. Called the groundcrew who do it all the time - lift handle and push.

The window opened outwards not inwards :\

[Terry K Rumble]

May I expand this thread slightly, by raising another point regarding those who occupy 'emergency exit' seats?

A couple of weeks ago I flew to Washington and requested an emergency exit seat. I explained that I was ex RAF and was familiar with the door operation etc. and happy to accept the responsibility, only to be told that all of those seats had been pre booked (usually by Gold card holders)

Thats fair enough, and I don't fly that often really, so I can understand why these passengers having priority over myself for seating choice. What I was concerned about however, is that one of the emergency exit seats was occupied by a very elderly couple and another emergency exit was occupied by a couple who barely spoke english!

Yesterday, I returned to the UK with the same airline and the very same thing happened. Emergency exit seats occupied by people who, IMHO, would have been unable or unfit (or both) to have operated the doors in an emergency.

I have raised this question on PPrune before, and I have raised it with the airline concerned, and was assured by them that it should NOT happen, and the airline would investigate and get back to me (they didn't!) They also assured me that these seats were NOT pre-bookable, and were allocated on the day of flight and only after the check-in staff were satisfied that those who would be occupying the seats were 'fit and able'

As Pontius Navigator and others have stated, I have never ever seen anyone being given a briefing on the operation of the doors, and whenever I have had the good fortune to be seated there, I have never been given a briefing either.

Several years ago, an aquantance of mine was badly injured in the aircraft that caught fire during take off at Manchester. One of the things he told me about was the delay at getting the emergency escape hatches opened once the evacuation call had been made.

matblack: I'm sorry to tell you that, on this occasion, I flew with ...........................................BA!

theskyboy: 'Just because passengers haven't been briefed on the operation of an overwing exit, doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to open them' That may well be true as far as getting the door open is concerned (eventually), but when seconds count, I would suggest to you that actually, it DOES matter a lot.

Maybe someone from the CAA or FAA might like to comment as to the 'official position' regarding the occupants of emergency exit seats?

TKR

[PAXboy]

TKR You are right and I have seen this too often to count. My plan is to get a seat close to the exit and then, if unsuitable folks are in the way, to trample them down. I am not joking.

If the airline did not get back to you (Customer Service in ALL modern companies are created to not get back to clients) then I suggest writing to the CAA. Now, I know that the CAA are as much use as an elderly couple with a broken leg in an exit row when the Evacuation Call is made ... but if the CAA do not give you satisfaction, you can write to your MP.

[TightSlot]

Hmmmm - looks like I missed out answering this one: Can only plead workload as I'm presently in AKL training.

Certain exits, usually overwings but can be any exit where there is no crew member seated, are classified as "self-help" exits. Passengers seated at such an exit must receive a briefing from a crew member as to the safe and correct operation of that exit. The briefing must include instructions as to how to assess outside for hazard prior to opening, and how to re-direct if that exit is unusable.

If such seats are unoccupied, passengers must be moved into adjacent rows, in order that they can be briefed by the crew. However, if by moving passengers, the aircraft would go out of trim, clearly it cannot happen. The smart move would be to brief the nearest pax on the exit operation, and instruct them to proceed to that exit for completion of their duties if an incident takes place.

There are strict rules governing the allocation of seats in an exit row - the interpretation of those rules is to some small degree subjective and is massively complicated for all involved by the sale of those seats by airlines. All I can tell you is that I've never knowingly flown with unsuitable pax seated in such seats, and regularly move those that I am uncertain about.

[Final 3 Greens]

The only time I fly in the emergency exit row is when I travel with easyJet.

Without fail, I have received a briefing.

[Habster]

Flew Virgin Blue in December and heard the very detailed instructions for the second time in over +20 years of flying thru Australia-Canada-USA- roughly a flight a year. No frequent flyer but I'm usually be sitting in close vicinity of the wings. Usually never a peep about what is expected,maybe I don't hear it but...

[Terry K Rumble]

TightSlot

Are you saying that the airlines have a legal responsibility to only allocate emergency exit seats to 'fit and able' people?

If that is the case, then I will take the matter up with BA once again, and insist on a responce this time.

Would you be so kind and advised us all here how you yourself would deal with someone who was 'unsuitable' ?? On one occasion, when a young child was occupying an exit seat, I questoned the cabin crew as to her suitability and was told that I was not to worry, because in the event of an emergency, the cabin crew would take control.

I have no doubt that they would, but when push comes to shove (literally!) I do not want to put my life in the hands of someone who is probably not up to the important job in hand.

TKR

[TightSlot]

Are you saying that the airlines have a legal responsibility to only allocate emergency exit seats to 'fit and able' people?
Yes, absolutely. The subjectivity arises as to how 'fit and able" is defined.

The list of unsuitable occupants is ssentially as follows (there are some minor airline/national variations).


No Children
No Obese
No Disabled
No Prisoners in Custody/Deportees
No Infants
No Elderly/Frail


Dealing with unsuitability? Requires tact and diplomacy and also a firm approach - but you do it. Sometimes I have swapped pax around for take-off and landing only, allowing them to occupy such seats in the cruise. Ultimately, if I get attitude and refusal, I inform the Captain and we go nowhere until it is resolved.

Done carefully, and with sensitivity and empathy, it is rarely a problem.

[Terry K Rumble]

TightSlot

Very many thanks for the explanation. I shall put pen to paper tomorrow and inform BA of what happened on my flights to and from Dulles, and enquire as to why they allow the seats to be booked on-line, clearly by 'unsuitable' people. I will of course keep this thread updated (assuming I get a reply!)

Thank you
TKR

[Final 3 Greens]

another emergency exit was occupied by a couple who barely spoke english!

Is speaking English a legal requirement? I very much doubt it.

[skydriller]

Whenever seated at an overwing emergency exit on a short/medium haul flight, I have always been briefed by cabin crews on western airlines/major carriers about that fact. Long-haul flights do seem to be different though, and I do not recall the last time I was briefed at an emergency exit seat crossing the atlantic, I think Air France did last time though?

As a frequent flyer I have noticed an increasing trend in the last 2-3 years or so of unsuitable passengers (elderly/huge/children) being seated at Emergency Exit seats with no action taken by cabin crew to intervene - and I belive this is solely due to the selling of these seats at a premium by certain airlines, even some legacy carriers do it now:suspect:. I think that the "business" of selling off these seats at a premium is a safety issue and should be stopped by the aviation regulators worldwide. Any airline that does this is not interested in your safety onboard the flight, money is more important to them...:rolleyes:

Regards SD.

[NZScion]

SD, were there cabin crew stationed at the exits for take-off and landing? Long-haul aircraft (B777/A340 etc) usually have crew seated at the over wing exits, as they tend to be doors, not hatches. I imagine there is no requirement to brief pax if crew are stationed at the door.

[13 please]

On our aircraft, any pax by any emergency exits have to be "suitable" pax to be sat there. They will only be briefed pre-takeoff if it is a self-help exit, ie no cabin crew sat there for takeoff..

A few years ago in the US, a friend of ours, given such seats, was asked if she understood and would be prepared to open it if need be. Her response was "can I practice first??"....:ok:

[Shack37]

Quote
"Is speaking English a legal requirement? I very much doubt it."

On a recent internal US flight (Atlanta-PC Florida) the safety card stated that to occupy the emergency exit seats the pax had to know enough English to understand the briefing on the opening of the exits

s37

[Final 3 Greens]

Shack

The OP was discussing VS and that was the context of my statement.

USA is a different ball game, I would not make the assertion as I am out of date across there.

[skydriller]

SD, were there cabin crew stationed at the exits for take-off and landing? Long-haul aircraft (B777/A340 etc) usually have crew seated at the over wing exits, as they tend to be doors, not hatches. I imagine there is no requirement to brief pax if crew are stationed at the door.

Cant remember to be honest where crew were, I know on most flights I go on they have a few seats cordonned off for rest and there are flip-down seats in the galleys....But yes, the exits are proper doors on long haul jets, so maybe the theory is that cabin crew will open them? But to be honest Im with paxboy on the whole exit of aeroplane in a emergency - I sure wont be waiting for cabin crew to get to doors !!!

SD..

[Glamgirl]

TKR,

If you flew with BA long haul, it would have been on a 777 or 747. These aircraft do not have self-help exits (overwing or otherwise). That's why you didn't get a briefing. A crew member is allocated to sit at each door/exit and will open the door. Also, there are instructions on how to open the door during the safety demonstration as well as instructions on each door. In the case of a pre-planned emergency where evacuation might be needed, able-bodied passengers would be briefed on door operation and other instructions.

Hope this helps and clarifies

Gg

[BusBoy]

skydriller

certainly in UK you won't have to wait for CC to open an exit, it will be done before you're ready. Generally crew are superb and in an incident training kicks in and they perform.

(not saying anywhere else is better or worse, just that I have not worked for non UK)

[Memetic]

Terry K Rumble

Obviously I was not there so did not hear what was said, but, the pre booked may not relate to online check in / seat selection. It may be that the passengers have had a connecting flight and been checked in hours before on another leg of their journey - something I have benefited from before.

However that still does not explain why unsuitable passengers were in the seats.

On a lo-co, into STN a couple of years ago I was shocked to see one of two middle age ladies in the exit row, across the aisle from me, use a walking stick to help her down the aisle after we landed.

I do look out for this sort of thing now, I'm glad to say I have not seen it since however.

[Pontius Navigator]

Flew Monarch last week, A320 IIRC. The seats were all at standard spacing with no extra for the emergency exit.

The emergency exit seat immediately in front on me (over wing) was occupied by a blue rinse lady. Next to her was her husband of similar ancient vintage.

I resolved to seek a different exit as I doubted not only that they could not operate the hatch release but would probably block the exit anyway.

[KittyBlue]

as per DJ, shortly there will be a requirement when booking Blue Zone (overwings) that you are able to understand english directions. This will be a requirement!

[west lakes]

Just flown EZY from Gatwick (Ex GB air flight and aircraft), on boarding in both directions a CC member was stood in the overwing exit area to positively confirm that pax knew before sitting down what was required and questioned carefully that theyy were capable of dealing with the exit:ok:

[hardhatter]

Seems like my question has been going through other people's minds as well...
But I still do not have an answer to the following:
Is it a requirement or not to have passengers sitting at the emergency exits? Besides being able bodied or not?
Is the manning of the exits a requirement of the FAA/JAR or of each individual airline?

[Glamgirl]

It depends on the loads, basically.

If you have 30 pax on a 737 and they're all seated at the back for trim and balance, you do not need anyone at the overwings. The reasoning behind this is that it's more important to keep the aircraft in trim than the minute chance that you'll need to use the overwing exits.

If you have fairly high loads, then you need an able bodied person at each over wing exit.

That said, if you're on a flight and seats are blocked off for trim, you can sit in the empty seats during the cruise. The blocking off of seats is for take off and landing.

Hope this clarifies things somewhat.

Gg

[wayupthere]

I was on Flybe flight that was only about 10% full but I got moved to an emergency exit. I asked if I'd get the money from my pre-booked seat back. We all had a good laugh....

[Shack37]

I flew SAS Trondheim to Oslo yesterday on a 737-400. The emergency exit was row 9 but did not have the usual extra legroom found at exit rows. It looked as if the normal gap between what were now rows 8 and 10 had row 9 slotted in between them for extra seating. This impression was added to by the fact that both row 8 and row 9 seatbacks had the exit opening instuctions on them and the row 9 seatback was directly in line with the emergency hatch opening handle. The only apparent mitigation was that row 9 had no window seats but pax would still have needed to squeeze between row 8 seatbacks and row 9 armrests in an emergency.

s37

[eliptic]

Hmmm:=

A Saudi Arabian Airlines McDonnell Douglas MD-90-30, flight SV-1905 from Riyadh to Taif (Saudi Arabia), had just touched down at Taif's Airport, when one of the overwing exit doors opened and fell into the cabin missing a child and the child's mother sitting in that exit row. No injuries occured.

[Businesstraveller]

I was travelling with BMI Baby some time ago - sitting on the front row as I generally do. Having flown on their aircraft umpteen times I quietly got on with reading my book whilst the safety demo was in progress. At the end the cabin manager (chap in late 40s - looked like he was more regularly ground based - trainer perhaps?) sat next to me and pointed out that I hadn't watched him during the demo. I gave the genuine reason which was that I'd travelled on this aircraft type with this airline approximately 100 times in the last year, so felt well aquainted with the demo. He replied that it was a legal requirement for me to listen/watch the demo regardless (is it really?) and so he proceeded to repeat the whole thing whilst seated next to me as the aircraft taxied. I quietly watched, listened and nodded at the right moments - but I did wonder when he started to tell me how to disengage the airslide and open the main door. Couldn't remember those points forming part of any airline safety demo I've seen ever!
Anyway, we ended up chatting amiably for most the flight and wished each other well as I disembarked and shook hands. Happy days....

[Otto Throttle]

I cannot comment on the legality of you being required to listen, only that the aircraft commander is legally required to make sure that the passengers receive a safety briefing. Sounds like BS to me though.

The additional brief you received would not normally form part of a pre-flight briefing (at least not at my employer), but it is exactly the kind of information you would receive in the event of an in-flight emergency occurring where there is time to prepare the cabin for the expected emergency. Part of this preparation would be the identification of Able Bodies Passengers (ABPs); passengers both willing and able to assist in the event of an evacuation being required.

In most circumstances, as an ABP you would be expected to hold other passengers back long enough for the crew to open the doors (and deploy the escape slides if the aircraft type has them) and then be the first passengers to evacuate, in order to assist the following passengers with their evacuation. The brief on door operation would be required in the event of crew incapacitation, along with how to operate the crew harness should you need to move the crew member away from the door area in order to evacuate.

[Seat62K]

Slightly at a tangent, but on only one occasion have I seen cabin crew check whether emergency exit row passengers spoke the language of the airline's staff. This was on a US Airways' flight between Philadelphia and Montreal. I agreed to swop seats with French-speakers who did not have good English after a PA request for English speakers who were willing to occupy seats in the emergency exit row.

[scott_cardiff]

Quick question guys to add around extra leg room seating....

My father who has previously suffered from DVT called to pre-book an extra leg room seat with TOM this morning, only to be told by the call centre advisor that he was not eligible and would not be able to open the exit if there was an emergency. WHAT, with DVT?!?!?!?!?? :confused:

However, in the past he has flown on TOM flights, booked seats at check in, informed them of the previous DVT and granted the seats! Even TOM cabin crew have moved him into an exit seat if spare and he has been seated in economy.

It has absolutely baffled me as to why this call centre advisor has not allowed him to book the seat when he informed her that he is absolutely physically fit to operate the door and has sat in exit rows on numerous previous flights.

One to follow up myself I think..... :}

[Arik]

On my return from an FAA conference recently I was in a F100 with a Embraer 145 emergency card in front of me. I had to laugh, my fourth flight with T(ake) A(nother) P(lane) having had so many ridiculous dramas on the previous 3 flights and having to pay for one cancelled flight on the trip. I did point out to the cabin crew it wasn't really legal!!! They then managed to pour coffee over me!

Last flew them 20 years ago, swore I'd never fly them again ... this time I'm sticking to it!

[WHBM]

My father who has previously suffered from DVT called to pre-book an extra leg room seat with TOM this morning, only to be told by the call centre advisor that he was not eligible and would not be able to open the exit if there was an emergency. WHAT, with DVT?!?!?!?!??.
Contrary to some belief, airline personnel do not have medical degrees. If somebody states they have some "condition", especially one known just by initials, then no exit row. Goodness me, this pax advises they have had difficulty with sitting in airline seats on previous occasions and then expects to be seated in the prime position to take responsibility for the emergency exit.

[bunkrest]

I had an interesting experience as a pax on a domestic qantas 73 a couple of months ago...burly, clearly not having one of her better days, crew thundered up to us. I didn't even have chance to say I was cc when she launched a barrage of sep intensity questions at me.."what command would I hear when I needed to use it, when would I not use it, what situation would I use it without hearing the command" etc etc. When I rattled off the answers and outlined the finer points of what constituted catastrophic and non catastrophic she seemed more than a little crest fallen...The poor civilians sitting in the row behind didn't fair so well and were promptly moved...

I'm all for a thorough briefing but this one had even me sweating!:O

[scott_cardiff]

It seems that you're not all that clued up on medical conditions yourself....

DVT does not necessarily pose you a physical disability which would prevent you from operating the emegency exit. He did not get the condition from flying what so ever, however, if he were to sit in Y class then there is a chance the condition would return.

Let's not assume ay...

[skyhidude]

May I interject as someone who is CC with a UK airline and formerly of the afore mentioned Irish company...

At the time I was at that company, there was no IAA requirement to brief self help exit passengers, or even to have them occupied, however the training department were circulating the idea of introducing it. Dont know if this happend or not since I left them!

However, in the UK it IS a CAA requirement that the exits are manned and pax are briefed. So it is possible that there is no requirement in the country of origin of the 'big blue airline' to have pax at the o/w, hence they didnt move anyone!

Cheers,

S.

[passy777]

The list of unsuitable occupants is ssentially as follows (there are some minor airline/national variations).

No Children
No Obese
No Disabled
No Prisoners in Custody/Deportees
No Infants
No Elderly/Frail

Out of curiosity, how would CC deal with a seemingly 'suitable' person who occupies an emergency exit who then becomes intoxicated with alcohol mid flight?

As Tight Slot has alluded to in a previous posting, normally there are no problems when an unsuitable pax has been asked to change their allocated emergency exit seat during the boarding process.

I could however, envisage potential confrontation should a 'suitable' person (on boarding) who has been allocated an emergency exit be asked to move 'mid flight' due to becoming intoxicated during the journey.

As anyone under the influence of alcohol may not be allowed to board an aircraft, it would be a reasonable assumption to state that a pax who was sober on boarding and becomes intoxicated later, then that pax should surely be deemed as unsuitable to fulfil the requirements of occupying such a seat? Indeed, such a pax could potentially be a hindrance should an evacuation become necessary.

Perhaps a rule could be implemented (assuming there are no such guidelines/ACOP's in place) that anyone occupying emergency exits will not be served alcohol for the duration of the flight. I would suspect that many passengers would not be so keen on bagging such seats if this was enforced!

[Businesstraveller]

'I would suspect that many passengers would not be so keen on bagging such seats if this was enforced'

Rather depends how the passenger got to the emergencxy exit seat in the first place. If they got it for free, they may be put off by a 'no alcohol' policy. If however, they are tall (like myself) and pay the extra for a preferential seat (invariably exit row) on a long haul flight, there is a good chance they'd just put up with a 'no alcohol' policy. I know I would, if it meant reducing the chance of a seriously aching back after 12hrs.

[Papa Sierra]

When flying LH from Frankfurt to JFK, two elderly ladies were sat in one of the "emergency rows", clearly they needed the extra space. The FAs politely asked my friend and I (2 reasonably able bodied individuals!) to swap seats with these ladies for T/O and Ldg. We were happy to oblige and I consider this to be a very sensible solution, especially as we were given a complimentary bottle of champagne later in the flight. I hasten to add that we were "sober" by the time we landed!!

[urok]

From Australian Civil Aviation Order 20.16.3:
Passengers who could obstruct or hinder access to emergency exits are
restricted from being seated in exit rows. These are:
• People with permanent or temporary disabilities;
• Children under 15years of age;
• Adults nursing infants;
• People who do not understand or speak English;
• People requiring extension seat belts;
• Deportees or prisoners in custody; and

If contravention of CAO20.16.3 does occur, cabin crew must relocate
the passenger to another available seat. If it is necessary to re-seat a
passenger, care must be taken so as not to embarrass nor prejudice
these passengers



In addition to regulatory requirements, company policy at QF group (so QF & JQ/3K/BL) and DJ also includes pregnant women over 6 months gestation.

"CAO20.16.3-2 defines a ‘handicapped person’ as: “a person requiring
special attention because of illness, injury, age, congenital malfunction,
or other temporary or permanent incapacity or disability which makes
that person unable without special facilities or assistance to utilise air
transport facilities and services as effectively as persons who are not so
affected”.
A disability that impairs the passenger’s ability to move quickly in the
event of an emergency may include:
• Passengers who require a wheelchair (WCHC/R/S) or upper torso
harness (TRSO).
• Passengers with a temporary or permanently stiff knee(s), knee(s)
in plaster, brace or splint.
• Passengers who are frail and aged.
• Passengers requiring medical clearance (MEDA).
• Passengers with intellectual disabilities.
• Passengers who are deaf.
• Passengers who are visually impaired.
• Passengers travelling with a guide/hearing dog."