Pride. Its not just about being gay.

[Al R]

As always, great shots in the Vegas thread and I'm shortly going to be reproducing one of Paul's shots without the kind permission of the owner, so thanks for that in advance Paul.

But why are we afraid to be be similarly proud? Even the word 'pride' has got more gay connotations nowadays (no - I'm not homophobic in any way, but if I was, get over it), than with being chuffed about ourselves as a nation, and proud of what we're about. It seems that despite the bullsh#t media message that we've got a lot to be proud about, we have to do it by numbers. We're just sinking into a sea of androgynous, apathetic and bland mulch. I love the fact that we're diverse, I love the idea that I can walk down lots of High Streets and hear lots of voices; as a nation we have so much to be proud about - we have offered refuge for centuries to people fleeing from persecution, we have been attractive to people to aspire to what we stand for, and we have provided refuge for sailors and Peterborough still, is littered with French names as Bonaparte PWs settled here.

I'll never forget an old Serb, surrounded by squalor, tugging at the small minging Union Flag on my smock sleeve, and saying over and over again.. 'Jimmy, Jimmy'. The interpreter told me that he sailed convoys out from Glasgow during the war and when I cut the patch off, and handed it to him, he burst into tears and actually kissed it - our flag meant that much to him. It meant more to him than it does to many of us nowadays.

My point is this (yes, I'm getting there, stick with it). I just wish that for once, we put aside pragmatism and British reserve, and painted our seasonal display jets in a similarly proud manner (with the Union Flag though, before anyone asks). I'm sure that there's some dusty Reg somewhere not allowing it, or that the money is allocated on equality training for left handed, short, lesbian, overweight illegal immigrants or there'll be some practical reason why the aeroplane is allocated to war reserve and it just wouldn't do to go to war in bright colours, but have we ever been so demonstrably proud as to do this?

This is where someone tells me that we already do this, and that I should get out to more air shows, at which point I shall hold my head in shame. But if we don't, please.. if you're the bod who can make this decision, for gods sake - just do it. Don't think about it - just do it will you? And if anyone has a go at you, give me their contact details and I'll gladly remind them who pays their salary and who employs them. Or is your name is Torpy and you're reading this, pick up the phone and 'make it happen' will you? Thanks.

http://www.skippyscage.com/aviation/pprune/klsv20080214-250.jpg

[Dan D'air]

Couldn't help but smile at the Google ad in the above post. Hilarious.

[effortless]

We are not so insecure.

[Mr-Burns]

I'd like to agree wholeheartedly but I just cant be arsed.

[GPMG]

We painted our aircraft Pink for GW1 didnt we? What more do you want?

[wingman863]

Boke.

American patriotism makes me nauseous, they have their flag draped around everything these days. Let's not join them...

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

http://www.quirkyprints.co.uk/cart.php?target=image&action=detailed_image&id=222

[mutleyfour]

With cutbacks meaning reductions in Airframe availability would such an aircraft remain available throuhout a display season?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

In all fairness, we've acquired that most undignified "logo"

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/B30CA6F4-892C-4895-95AA-93AE57B777C3/0/RedArrows1.JPG

and the flag has shrunk to near sod all over the years;


http://cdn-www.airliners.net/photos/middle/7/9/7/1229797.jpg

[Al R]

Effortless,

You're looking at it from the wrong perspective, its not an issue of insecurity, more an excuse for apathy. Don't look at it as if Typhoon (for instance) is a military chattel, look on it as what it is - something funded by the country and to be used for the collective good of the country. God knows, we're proud enough.. but is everyone else, and can we look at this from another angle to do some good?

If we are so secure about ourselves, why do we currently have the situation of.. a Vulcan, one of the greatest aeroplanes made, in the hands of enthusiasts, consigned to a future of uncertainty? If we are so secure about ourselves, why do we have troops changing on the pan at Birmingham and why do we have to fight like f#ck to get a house set aside for rehabilitating troops at Headley? Something which the g'ment should be doing.

The people who would see this are the people who might not be as alligned to our way of thinking.. we, by definition, are 'proud', but is everyone else? A young dissaffected lad, gazing upwards from some deprived area, seeing a Typhoon streak overhead resplendant with a Union Flag could excite god only knows what connection with a bright future and this country. A crowd having a symbol placed before them of something as cutting edge and being British might mean the difference between our injured troops not being jeered at in the baths in Epsom or Leatherhead.

No, it has nothing to do with being secure.. we can be secure all day long in our own little worlds. It has everything to do with grabbing the initiative and being secure enough to say 'F#ck it, if you're not proud to be British simply because you hate what Tony Blair did, then look at this as an example of what we can do, and you should be.'. I would love to see a photoshop mock up of Typhoon like this. We have the Red Arrows as a symbol of military excellence, so why not have Typhoon as a symbol of what we're all about.

(Yes, I know its European, but lets overlook that for now..)

[tonker]

There's a bar near me called "Camp David".....i'm comfused:}

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Are we back to "gay pride"?

[Al R]

Tonker,

When you say 'camp' and being 'confused'..?

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/ate/mentalhealth/205008.html

( Dear God, I hope someone doesn't check what I've been googling for, and finds 'confused about sexuality'. :sad: )

[effortless]

Al R

What I don't want to see is the Union Flag draped over everything and our nice little aircraft pimped up like the one in your piccy. I am often asked by my spam associates if I'm not proud to be British. I can't really answer as I don't really understand what that means. I am glad to be British but I am less happy with the way it is run and has been run for the last forty odd years. I support our chaps in as many ways as I am able. I drink with them when they grieve their mates and support their families when they don't come back themselves. In the way of old farts the world over, I wish I could go with them when they march out. I regret that my own military service was cut short. I abhor some of the jobs that they have been asked to do.

My family has donated the life of at least one of its children from each generation since the Afghan Campaign in 1878. Is this something to be proud of? I think that they did right by themselves and our country but I wonder if we did what we did for the greater good. We served because we wanted to serve. We liked to be part of that military family and I for one was desperate to fly.

Upon consideration, I think that I am proud to be British, I am proud that we do not need to wrap ourselves in the flag. I am proud that our anthem is a little bit boring. I am also proud that I can sit back and let other nations get the limelight while we quietly get on with the job as best we can. I am also proud that we can sometimes admit that we were wrong.

[Kitbag]

Throwing caution to the winds- I think I understand what Al R is talking about and to a degree agree with him. What I see in the majority of posts on this thread however is apathy. You are primarily arguing that you can't be bothered to raise the profile of the Services or the country.
The quote about letting others take the limelight is based upon a false modesty, which can only be achieved when ones country is at the centre of an empire on which the sun never sets. People got on with the job quietly then in the knowledge that we could say 'look at me like that again and I'll black your eye!' Otherwise lets just hide in a corner and remember the days when we had something to be proud of. On the whole I like Americans and I respect the pride they have in their flag. In many ways they are today as respectul of their country and its institutions as Britons were a hundred years ago. Now we are uncomfortable with that and try to appear sophisticated by laughing at ourselves. Really all we do is indoctrinate a sense of guilt and failure, compounded by being very poor relations trying to sit at the big table.

[Dan D'air]

Kitbag,

:D:D:D:D:D

[GPMG]

Kitbag is spot on with his post.

I'm slightly envious of the way that the yanks respect their flag and the whole Stars and Stripes thing that they have going on.

Let's kick the arse out of it and paint up a Spitfire Mk9 in the Union Jack and have it piloted by some chap called John Smith and fly it up and down the Thames and pretty much everywhere else for that matter.

Nahh, maybe just the tail fin of a Eurofighter, oh and force BA to repaint their jets at the same time.

[Dan D'air]

Let's kick the arse out of it and paint up a Spitfire Mk9 in the Union Jack

Shouldn't we paint it yellow??

[Beatriz Fontana]

But my dearest Dan, can the defence budget stretch enough to afford the tin of paint?

S'pose it would be cheaper than the three tins required to paint it red, white and blue.

[Two's in]

One of the keys to being good at what you do, is to know that you are good at what you do. False modesty is a very British thing where it is viewed as unseemly to acknowledge that you or your unit or organization are generally better than most peope at doing the job in hand. Knowing you are good at something incentivizes most people to uphold that reputation and encourage others to perform to the highest standards. Pride comes from protecting that position, and serving in HM Armed Forces is one of the last professions where pride is actively encouraged (it used to be anyway).

[Dan D'air]

incentivizes

As Churchill said, we are indeed two peoples separated by a common language.

[Wingswinger]

Ars est celare artem.

[davejb]

Why, what's wrong with celery then?

[knowitall]

"Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first prize in the lottery of life."

Cecil John Rhodes


those who know don't need to show

[Kitbag]

"Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first prize in the lottery of life."

Cecil John Rhodes



A splendid quote which rather goes to prove the point I was trying to make earlier- valid in the 18th and19th centuries, rather less so now. We can say to ourselves (in a rather smug manner) 'we are the best because we are British'.
I'm afraid the world has moved on somewhat when that was a valid and verifiable point of view.
We are not so insecure
Yes we are, our planning assumption rely upon the Americans, whom so many here seem to despise, digging us out of the pooh in terms of intel, airlift, heavy armour, weapons supply, the list, whilst not endless is far too long. Seems to me we are very insecure as a nation, witness the dissolution and devolution that is happening, and at the same time centralisation of power in Europe. This is being carried out for the most part in a very stealthy manner but its ok because we know One of the keys to being good at what you do, is to know that you are good at what you do Another (and rather more important) key is to let everyone else know you are damn good at it. Which is why sending a gun boat used to be a good thing, now it just invites humiliation when the crew is captured and lose their iPods.

False modesty is a very British thing

False modesty is only any good when everyone else knows it is false modesty. The problem is our people- the British nation- and, I suspect a large part of the rest of the world no longer see the subtle distinction because they have been told we are no longer very good and over the last 60 years have seen that with a very few exceptions we can't go it alone- ergo we are very good at what we do (actually quite debateable now I think), we just can't do a lot.

Having just read the above I feel very depressed. The world now is a very different place to when Britain could project power. Our only use now is to pick the crumbs from the table of the only superpower in existence,and I do mean the crumbs- remember the 'assurances' regarding technology on Dave- we are no longer trusted even within the 'Special Relationship' a term invented by us after WWII to lessen the blow of end of Empire. I think perhaps some contributors need to remove their rose-tinted spectacles.

[Duncoffin]

Britain has not been a global force since the end of the Second World War. Of all the allied powers Britain lost the most in that conflict. (yet they still donated bread to a starving Germany, some pride there isn't there?) There is an element of embarrassment over the Empire (see political correctness as an over compensation) but we need to mature and pick up that flag again. It's fine to feel good about who you are. A lot of people do not understand the phrase "my country right or wrong" and read it is bullheaded arrogance when really it's like saying "my mother drunk or sober". Show some pride! Buy some paint or those little transfers you get in those airfix models. :ok:

[beardy]

I am proud of my country's history. I am proud of its (much mangled) language. I find little to be proud of in today's iteration of my nation.

[Monty77]

There's absolutey nothing wrong with celery. It's the arse/art bit I'm worried about.

Celery has it's place in a balanced diet if you happen to be a rabbit or a person with anorexia nervosa. When you start planting Vegetium Celerosia where it shouldn't be planted, then you are in danger of:

a. Physical injury, or
b. Large trees growing out of your arse. This obviously competes with the rain forest, kills small cuddly mammals with big eyes and cute ears, and therefore melts the all the ice in your fridge. Which puts Battersea Animal Shelter under water, you murdering selfish bastard.

I never made Sqn Ldr, but I reckon I could get compensation for that, isn't it?

[davejb]

That's okay then,
'cos celery growing where it shouldn't would be abuse, an' you should get compensation for that....

Random

[OCCWMF]

Gosh AIDU, thanks for that welcome and incisive insight.

[TheWizard]

This sort of thing?? :\
http://www.georgednott.f2s.com/screenshots/merlin_78_5.jpg

[Dan D'air]

Now that IS abuse. Harsh.

[Beatriz Fontana]

Oh, TheWizard, now I feel ill again. That's not a pretty sight!!

[M609]

Talking about not a pretty sight and pride of the British 'empire': :ok:

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article2285603.ece

http://www.nordlys.no/nyheter/article3381769.ece

...yeah I'll crawl under my rock again! :D

[chinook240]

http://www.deltaweb.co.uk/chinookdisplay/images/news0701_03_t.jpg (http://www.deltaweb.co.uk/chinookdisplay/images/news0701_03.jpg)

2007

We've been 'proud' for years

1984

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/photos/middle/8/4/3/0658348.jpg (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=0658348&size=L&width=1069&height=780&sok=&photo_nr=)

[Dunhovrin]

Ahh Yes, the Starry Plough. Symbol of Sien Fein if I'm not mistaken... (http://cgi.ebay.com/STARRY-PLOUGH-FLAG-Patch-Irish-Citizen-Army-IRA_W0QQitemZ150220773295QQihZ005QQcategoryZ146319QQcmdZView Item)

Interesting aside about the Serb chap in the first posting. Reminds us who's side they were on 60 years ago.

Was at Seaworld last week and before the show they have a round of applause for all their hero troops and those of our close allies from the UK. I like to thing it was 'cos we're the No2 player in the intervention game and not 'cos Seaworld was full of fat Brits beating their kids. But if respecting your troops means painting the odd jet RW&B then I'm for it.

And I think we all know why the Jags were 1st in line for the pink paint job in '91

That is all - carry on.

[jayteeto]

You went to Seaworld???? I thought you lot stayed in the hotel and counted your allowances?? :ok:

[[email protected]]

Dunhovrin - I know exactly what you mean - I spent xmas in Florida with what seemed like all of Essex and I started to wonder eactly what it was we Brits had to be proud of. If our national dress is adidas I don't want to be involved!!

[GPMG]

Ref MD609's post.

Hmm, methinks I might hazard a guess as what type of troops did that.

I think it's about time the corps stamped this kind of lark out, what with Camera phones being everywhere, it won't do us any favours.

Not that I have never done it but not in a public bar for christs sake.

[Al R]

Getting back to the initial point of this, and having read it all (well, most of it), we’re confusing a few different things here. Patriotism has become a dirty word to many – it’s an embarrassment or a joke, because as some have pointed out, we’re British and we don’t do that sort of thing. We leave it to others to shout from the rooftops, as we quietly go about our business with refrain and discretion. Patriotism after all, is something that chavs buy into when they prop Union Flags from the roof of the Cavalier, and we’re just sooo unlike them, its not true. It’s almost a fear, an assumption that patriotism leads to jingoism and then to nationalism – and we all know where that leads. Already, we’ve seen the blurring of the issue, George Galloway on QT the other night completely did away with any differentiating factors between the two theatres we’re fighting in – he oozed self loathing and contempt and the assumption was almost; if you take the fight to anyone, for any reason – then you’re a nutter.

The week after 9/11, I was at the mighty Stadium of Light, and there was a minute’s silence (just before we got our arses kicked by Spurs) and the US and the UK flags were placed in the centre circle. There were no intelligentsia there to pontificate to us about our confused feelings of sadness and pride, or whatever.. there was just the feeling that there were 2 countries, side by side in one’s hour of need, and if you remember, after 7/7 and after Corporate and when Diana died, we felt the same to.. there was an almost emotional closing of the ranks. Thos efeelings never leave us, they just get compressed a little.. like the love of one’s family, for one’s country.. it’s a thing that we don't like to talka bout, we are happt to take it all for granted, but its always there. I don’t wish to be inflammatory, but I wonder.. at the SoL that night, there were no pseudo-intellectuals trying to dissect my emotions, or the crowd’s emotions.. so where does it all come from?

And if ‘we’ don’t get ‘it’, then who will? if the defenders of the Defender of the Faith haven't bought into the idea of loving our country, then who will? I know we don't die for Q & C, we fight for our mates, but we also feel pride in our sqns, our children, our achievements, our history (how often do we like dropping that in with the spams?), but again.. why not country? Is patriotic sentiment perceived as being just a political wpn nowadays, have we shunned it because its an exploitable commodity? Possibly. But in our ‘multicultural’ Britain. Why 'us'?? Why in particular, the English? Why are we so afraid to celebrate our nationality.. why is it so difficult to stick a flag on an airplane without having to at least try and feel some shuddering revulsion, instead of a sense of pride?? Or is pride only something felt by those who are slightly looked down upon?

And I can think of lots of things we should be ashamed for before our nationality too. The NHS, OAPs with no money to heat their houses, people not being able to protest within a mile of Parliament or how that nurse in Leeds today was able to murder 4 patients and get away with it for so long. There are a good many things which one should feel shame for, and a good many things for which one should feel embarrassment. But being bloody English/Scottish/British/whatever is not one of them, and while I recognise that that Merlin is hideous painted as it is, I'm equally certain that there is room to be able to fly our flag on a jet without getting tied up in knots about it in case someone laughs at us. Because, lets be honest about this, and as was pointed out earlier.. we're living in the past if we think we're untouchable. To say that we can be justifiably and quietly proud of ourselves as things (generally) continue to go downhill all around us is a bit like being King Canute.

So if pride in achievement, one's country and oneself was good enough for these guys, and they wore a flag, then it would be good enough for me too. Please, its not too much to ask is it.. putting a fu:mad:king flag on one of our aeroplanes? Or are we going to get bogged down with shiny arsed paper clip counting tossers with their committees, focus groups and surveys, munching over the problem about who it might possibly offend?

Probably.


http://www.wing-fields.co.uk/acatalog/C60a.JPG

[Jetex Jim]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7272315.stm


Who said the thread was not military/aviation related?

The event attracts people from around the world. Air New Zealand put on a special "pink flight" from San Francisco to Sydney.
As usual, the lesbian motorcycle group Dykes on Bikes began the procession up central Sydney's Oxford Street, followed by nearly 200 of the original "class of '78" or their partners. For the first time, an official contingent from the Australian Defence Force is taking part.


Dykes on Bikes, more fun than the celery munching variety...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/60778326@N00/649621311/

[Al R]

Alls well that ends well :). Culture minister Margaret Hodge has saved us and suggested that we have less Proms and more Corro, in order to feel British.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7276684.stm

She said that talk of national mottos and shared values had to be backed up with "equal economic and educational life chances" if they were to mean anything to ordinary people. 'Equal'?? These people allow things like Married Quarters, the Vulcan bomber and RAF Bicester to waste away quite happily. Equality for who?

[A2QFI]

And RAF Newton, judging by what it looked like as I went past last week!