Leave entitlement

[suckerpuncher]

Calling all Ops bods

My employer is looking to alter our leave scheme, and I'm interested in what other Ops dep'ts work.

Basically, we work 12 hour shifts on a 4 on 4 off pattern, and so if we take a 4 day block of leave, we get 12 days free of duties (I've heard the days off portions called wraparound days??).

The management believes that this is too generous, and so are saying that you do not accrue the right to days off if you take leave. In other words, if you were to take a block of 4 day's leave, you are then to be rostered back on shift on what would have been your first rest day after your booked leave (in other words 8 days off instead of 12)

I've argued that this equates to a Mon - Fri worker who takes a week off being required to start work again on the Saturday imediately proceeding their 5 days off rather than the following Monday (with me so far??).

My understanding of leave has come from first hand experience in 3 other Airlines' Ops Dept's over the past XXX years, where "wraparound days" were the norm.

So, what is the general concensus about 4 on 4 off leave? What do your Ops Dep'ts Do?

Thanks

suckerpuncher

[Unionjet28]

This is nothing more than stealing your leave off you.

My current employer does this too, (my previous 3 airlines did not by the way) and it amounts to disrupting your shift pattern and stealing your usable time off.

As you have pointed out yourself, Its very simple. 9 to 5 types have saturday and sunday off. 5 days leave for them means they get 9 days off in total.. ie the 2 before the working week and the 2 after. Ops get nothing over and above what a 9 to 5 er gets, it just seems like its more because of how the shifts work.

They seem to forget that we spend 4 hours more per day in work than they do, and also have to work nights.

Naturally, managers want to take this pattern away because it is something that generally makes the shift worker happy, as you get your time off all together, and results in more days off, but not more time off (important distinction there!).

Dont accept it, unless of course the monday - friday office bods are happy to come back off leave on a saturday morning and start working nights....;)

It seems to be a growing trend to try to remove the 4 on 4 off pattern, or at least to completely degrade its benefits. I am sure some idiotic beancounter has worked out that by doing so, they will gain an extra day or two productivity per year. What they have not factored is the extra sickness, or indeed the people who will just simply leave if its taken away from them.

I guess however, that after all the cuts in inflight service, the screwing that crews have got in terms of their pay and rosters, and the general lowering of terms and conditions, us ops people were inevitably going to be next.....:ugh:

[Little Blue]

I dread to think who your employer is !
A few years ago, my company shifted from 4 on/off 12hrs to EE/LL/NN 3 off, 8hr shifts and, of course, bye bye to the 12 days off.
We hated it, they loved it but then came 9/11 and redundancies forced them to move back to the old the pattern.
Basically, if you are working 12 hour days then you can only expect the equivalent time off and that includes the leave.
We now work 5/5 4/5 5/4 4/4 which is even better. But we work damned hard.
Good luck

[antonovman]

This actually has been going on for years. Employers have always hated the idea of the shift workers taking 4 days leave thus giving them 12 days hols. The LGW staff of an airline I worked for had to use 1.5 days of their leave for every day, ie if they took the 4 days off giving them 12 days leave they had to give up 6 days leave iso 4. I am moving to an airline soon that calculates the annual leave in hours rather than days !!I presume its to put a stop to all this

[G-MILF]

The last two employers I worked for had a 4 on 4 off pattern which only required 4 days leave to be taken in order to get 12 days off. My current employer has just moved to the same 4 on 4 off pattern from a pattern similar to that mentioned by the original poster. i.e. if you take your 4 days off as leave we will then be rostered back on what would have been your rest days.

There is one GA operator in the Gatwick area who operate that very system because their MD is of the opinion that to get 4 days off you have to earn them by working 4 days.

To be honest I think that that system creates more of a rostering nightmare and only creates bad will amongst shift workers. Unfortunately the managers and HR people that come up with these plans have never worked shifts and will therefore never understand.

[Dropline]

I hope the company I work for doesn't read this!!!

This is one of the few remaining "perks" left to shift workers so please don't let them get away with it trying to change it! It's not even really a perk - they are not called rest days for nothing! Where I work, we've already had to put up with the gradual erosion of our shift pay (ie no increase in the last 8 years), not to mention our shifts changing, with earlier starts and later finishes! Now it looks like my rest days could be next to go!!! Help! The rest days are the reason most of us choose to work shifts in the first place!

We work 12 hour shifts not 8 hour shifts, and the extra days off are to make sure your hours worked over a year average out to the same as a 9-5 person!!! If you were made to come in on your rest days, you would surely be entitled to overtime or time off in lieu? The same applies to a 6 on 3 off pattern.

Imagine the outcry if your 9-5 colleagues were told they had to come in over the weekend when they took a week off!!!!

Fight this one all the way!!!!

[G-MILF]

I need to double check my maths but assuming a Mon - Fri worker worked 9am - 5.30pm (taking in to account paid leave and bank holidays) my calculations are as follows:

1st Jan - 31st Dec

Mon - Fri worker works 254 days @ 8.5 hrs/day = 2159 hrs/year
4 on, 4 off worker works 183 days @ 12 hrs/day = 2196 hrs/year

Anyway care to correct my maths?

[Fr. Dougal]

ah, so i see we are not the only carrier getting screwed then!! ;-)

basically, i think the fairest way to work out your leave entitlement is as follows:

1 days leave equals 8 hours.

you get 21 days leave, plus 9 bank holidays (for example), equals 30 days leave to take.

as these are 8 hour days, but you work 12 hour shifts, each days leave is two thirds of a shift, so you get 2/3 of 30 days (i.e 20) shifts to take as leave.

very easy!

this means you get 5 blocks of 4 days off to take over the year.

why mess with this? it is simple, equitable and no-one can argue with it.

[747-436]

If they try to make you take 4 days leave and then have to work straight after on your days off then what is the point of having leave?!?! Hope your managers see through this! Did they ever work shifts?? Probably not if they are thinking along those lines!
That is one of the incentives of working 12 hour days is to be able to take a few days leave and have long stretches of days off with it! Otherwise whats the point, may as well go to work Monday to Fridays!
I used to work 4 on 4 off and now have to do Monday to Fridays, miss my old shift pattern!

[Baskitt Kase]

Our shift patterns are rarely as regular as the 2D, 2N, 4off that is the supposed plan. We gather time off at the rate of 1 day per shift done ie if we work 3D, 3N immediately before taking leave we would get 6 off before our leave starts. Thereafter we use 1 days' leave for each week day that we are off until we get back, so we get the same 9 days' holiday as the day workers (plus the shift time of - 6 days in this example) for the cost of 5 days' leave. Not surprisingly, we're keen to work extra shifts immediately before a holiday!

[boredcounter]

12 hour shifts I work and yes my leave is factored @1.5 days per shift taken. That said, 8 x bank holidays at face value added to leave regardless of worked or not.

I work 6 on 8 off, 24 leave days factored at 1.5 = 16 leave days + 8 Bank holidays. 24 shifts total. 4 three week breaks a year.

Not may 9-5'ers get that.


(Yes for the mathsheads out there, I do owe my company hours, which are repaid, prior to overtime being paid in cash)

9-5'ers (hence, beancounters) will always be jealous of shift patterns, the days off, even the 'execessive' ( ;-) ) leave we get and overtime to boot, but so what. we deserve some breaks for the punishment we put our bodies through, do we not?

As an aside, sorry can't remember who posted the shift pay and lack of increase for 8 years. We got 10p an hour, published on the Co. intranet. That was over a year ago and said beancounter is still (I guess) checking we have the most efficient shift patterns!

Funny old game init.

[SHM322]

Down in bluest LGW we work 2D/2N 4 off as per contract.Leave is 25 days plus 8 bank holiday days =33 days a year.

Happy daze