XXV - the RAF's most senior squadron

[ALock]

XXV Squadron will disband on April 4th 2008. Is this the demise of the longest serving operational squadron in the RAF? Any counter claims but let's not have any of 'the Bloodhound bit doesn't count' stuff, please.

Feriens Tego – Striking I defend

[Background Noise]

1 Sqn was the first surely, although II(AC)Sqn always claims to be the longest serving fixed wing sqn due to 1 Sqn's balloon antics.

[Archimedes]

The AHB was called upon to draw up a list of squadron seniority in 1957 and a similar list has been produced on many occasions since; the last one I've seen dates from 1973, but I have it on extremely good authority that the principles underpinning the 73 list (which are the same as those for the 1968 list and almost identical to the 57 list) are still in place.

Assuming that the same rules still apply in terms of accumulated service, II(AC) will be officially considered the most senior RAF squadron (as it has been on every list of seniority that's in the PRO).

6 had unbroken service until it went last year; XXV was dormant from 1962 when it surrendered its Gloster Javelins until October 73 when it received Bloodhound. II(AC) was dormant for the grand total of 11 days in 1920, and has been with us ever since.

None of that, though, should take away from the fact that the squadron is one of the most senior numberplates and should, all things being equal, re-emerge as a Typhoon squadron in due course.

[ALock]

Archimedes - Thanks for your response. I always believed XXV was up there somewhere. Was it the seniority of XXV that saw the demise of 11 and 23 while XXV survived at Leeming?

The indicators for XXV are not good as there’s nothing on the horizon re the number plate being carried forward (not that I’m in the know but I’ve heard – always dangerous). Rumours do abound though about the lack of support for XXV from those on high who wish to promote the succession of squadron’s they served on. A terrible rumour that I'm sure is not true ;) . Hopefully the XXV number plate will reappear, it should do.

In the meantime lots of ex and current XXV'ers will be at Leeming on the 28th/29th March for the usual sedate social gatherings that occur when a great squadron goes (OK - a bit of bias there).

[Background Noise]

Was it the seniority of XXV that saw the demise of 11 and 23 Don't think so - it could be argued the other way I guess - 11 and 23 are both still going, just with different aircraft.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Isn't 201 Sqn the oldest squadron??

Formed from No 1 RNAS, it became No 201 Sqn RAF on 1st April 1918.

'HIC ET UBIQUE'

TSM

[minigundiplomat]

Maybe the polite thing to do would be to have this discussion after the current pursuants have disbanded.


Maybe the polite thing to do


What was I thinking....

[Bus14]

For reasons that I can't now recall, 1 and 3 squadrons were the first to form. As has been mentioned, 1 Sqn were equiped with balloons, hence 3 Sqn is the oldest 'aircraft' squadron - motto 'Tertius Primus Erit', 'The Third Shall Be First'.

However, like other posters, I understood 2 Sqn to be the most senior squadron when calculated by length of service rather than date of formation.

Thread Creep - When 3(F) Sqn was being presented with a new standard in the 80s I took a photo of a line up of aircraft from 1 through to 5 Sgn on the ramp outside the old Q shed on 3(F)'s site at Gutersloh (Harrier, Jaguar, Harrier, Harrier, Lightning). Many years later, while boring a squadron of air cadets with a presentation on my years of derring do in the RAF I asked them what the link was between the aircraft in the picture.

Quick as a flash, a little hand shot up.
'They all have Rolls-Royce engines?'
'Yes, but that wasn't the answer I was looking for'
'They are all single seat?'
'Yes, but that wasn't the answer I was looking for'
'You've flown them all?'
'Yes, but that wasn't the answer I was looking for'

In the end I has to tell them the answer (1 to 5, in order), but the little philistines weren't particularly impressed:ugh:

[cazatou]

In April 1911 the War Office formed an Air Battalion at Farnborough, consisting of two companies. No1 company had balloons, kites and airships whilst No2 company had aeroplanes.

[Gainesy]

But in April 1911, did the airships outnumber the aeroplanes?

[Bus14]

In April 1911 the War Office formed an Air Battalion at Farnborough, consisting of two companies. No1 company had balloons, kites and airships whilst No2 company had aeroplanes.

True, but No2 company became 3 Sqn at Larkhill, or at least their aircraft did. 1,2, and 3 Sqns were formed on the same day, but 3 Sqn claims the 'Oldest fixed wing' title because it was born of No2 company, but does not claim to be the 'senior' sqn on length of service.

[Archimedes]

ALock, senior officers do indeed attempt to get 'their' squadrons reformed, but the Head of AHB always tells them that if this is their wish, they must - personally, with no help from their SO2s - rewrite the squadron numberplate policy and put it through the Air Force Board (or whatever its called these days).

At which point, senior officers invariably surrender. When the time comes for the creation of a new squadron, if the extant policy stands, XXV will be the front runners to reform.


TSM - common misperception, but the creation of 1(N) came about later than that of 1, II(AC) and 3.

[XV277]

There was a long 'discussion' between 2 and 3 as to who took to the air first - until records came to light that showed that the COs of both units took off together to avoid such controversy.

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

"In the end I has to tell them the answer (1 to 5, in order), but the little philistines weren't particularly impressed"

Well I can't understand why. Lined up in order of Sqn numbers. What's not to like about that? Kids eh?

[The Swinging Monkey]

Archimedes

The question relates to the first RAF Squadon.

As the RAF was formed on 1 April 1918, the very same day that 1 sqn RNAS became no' 201 sqn RAF.

Why therefore, do you feel that 1sqn was 'the first' ??

TSM

[Kitbag]

But in April 1911, did the airships outnumber the aeroplanes?


Probably not, but the Airships (VSOs) must do now:}

[Archimedes]

TSM - because all of the extant RFC and RNAS squadrons became RAF squadrons at the same time.

1 Sqn RFC became 1 Sqn RAF at the precise same moment that 1(N) was re-numbered from 1 Sqn RNAS to become 201 Sqn RAF.

Renumbering of a squadron in this set of circumstances doesn't count as unit formation when calculating seniority. 201's high position in the RAF's seniority list stems from its formation as 1 Naval Sqn on 17 Oct 14, not from renumbering to the 201 'plate in 1918.

[Winco]

Archimedes

What the question said was 'Is this the demise of the longest serving operational squadron in the RAF?' RAF being the operative word here.

If it is good enough for 1(F) Sqn to be regarded as the 'first' in your opinion because it was derived from 1 Sqn RFC, then why is not the same true for 201 Sqn, who as you rightly say was derived from 1 RNAS. Both squadrons became RAF squadrons on the same day, did they not?

Or, are you saying that because 1 Sqn was a RFC Sqn that in some way it 'outranks' 1 RNAS?

[Archimedes]

Winco, I have attempted to answer the original query. The answer to that question is 'no'.

On re-reading my response to TSM, which was done in a hurry, I can see why it seems that I am arguing that 1 Sqn is older/first, but that was not my intent.

The reason for that is because it matters not which is the 'oldest' because, frankly, it doesn't matter how old a squadron is, it's seniority that counts in all these things.

All of the extant RAF squadrons, bar 617, became part of the RAF on 1 April 1918. Thus with one exception, they either all count jointly as the oldest squadron in which case 201 is joint oldest with all but one other RAF squadron or some distinction has to be made between them.

I assumed that TSM wasn't asking a rhetorical question taking 'oldest' in its most literal sense, since every current unit formed as part of the RAF on 1 Apr 18 is obviously the 'oldest' squadron, rendering the attempt to distinguish the oldest squadron meaningless. Since I've never known TSM to post anything meaningless, I presumed, perhaps wrongly, that he was asking about seniority.

If he was, then my answer stands - but its II(AC) that holds the position as most senior squadron, not 1(F); if he wasn't, then all of them apart from 617 are the oldest, which renders the distinction pointless.

[TangoZulu]

Slightly off topic - apologies

Given that all the Sqns currently extant in the Air Force (bar 617) were in existence on 1 Apr 1918 - why are 617 apparently considered special?

I understand their history but surely there were other Sqns with battle honours and more seniority which should still be in existence before them?

Purely curiosity

Thanks

[Archimedes]

TZ - ignoring a couple of obvious banter-based responses.... 617 (and 120) were awarded their standards before they'd completed the 25-year qualifying period as recognition of their service in WW2. This has been taken as giving the two units a status in the RAF that trumps seniority.

When the V-Force was to be reduced in the light of the RN taking on the deterrent, one squadron was to go at Scampton. The documentation from the time is absolutely clear on why 617 survived and 83 squadron went - the early award of the standard saved 617. I assume that this may also have applied when the Tornado GR 1s went to Lossie with 27 renumbering as 12 Sqn, past precedent would have suggested that the other Tornado unit should have renumbered as 208 (so long as it was junior to that numberplate), but as it was 617, it was 208 that went.

Time to award myself the :8 smiley (not for the first time), I fear...

[engoal]

Given that all the Sqns currently extant in the Air Force (bar 617) were in existence on 1 Apr 1918 - why are 617 apparently considered special?


What merit should be given to the impact of the level of recognition of a particular Sqn in the public eye? Discuss.

For example, it is likely, but not certain, that Joe Public's answer to the question "name an RAF Sqn" would probably be either the Red Arrows or the Dambusters. Imagine the tabloid furore if either were to be disbanded, compared to the likely wave of apathy that might greet the news that 'Heroes of 21 (I know, I'm just illustrating the point without offending anyone!) Sqn face chop by heartless MOD Top Brass'.

And before you ask, I have served on neither of the above.

[Backwards PLT]

So can someone just clarify which are the most senior sqns in the RAF in terms of:

1. Time active since 1 Apr 1918
2. Time active flying aircraft since 1 Apr 1918 (Bloodhounds don't count!!)

[Archimedes]

This is without checking, but I think the answer to both is 24 Squadron. As far as I am aware, it has unbroken continuous service since 1918, unless you count the minute between the disbandment of the original 24 Sqn in 1920 and the formation of the new 24 Sqn the same day. The only Bloodhound associated with that squadron is going to have been of the canine variety.

(If you're wondering about the minute, the form is normally that a unit officially disbands at 23:59:59 and reforms at its new location at 00:01:00 the next day.