Boeing Australia and Agusta Westland join up

[OPSH24]

Heard that Augusta Westland and Boeing Australia have teamed up with the A109 for Air9000! Raytheon can't be too pleased with that after procuring some themselves !!

[Torquer]

Why would Australia consider the A109 for a lead in platform to the ARH/MRH90? I'd say that EADS current arrangement with Australian Aerospace for the training and delivery of ab-initio rotary wing skills on a EC135 would probably be the preferred option. The AIR9000 requirement is also aligned with AIR7000, a light utility platform to replace that lost through the current and future retirement of the Kiowa, Iroquois and Squirrel fleets. The A109 is underpowered, and very limited in it's ability to replace the capability of the UH1H.

[OPSH24]

I wouldn't be looking towards the Australian Aerospace solution as an example of a good training solution - who hates them more - their subcontractors (were in court) or their customer !

[mechchick]

:ugh:

I think some people here need to get their facts straight about AA....

Subcontractors and training? Oh you must be referring to KBR then.....


As for the ADF not liking us?..news to those of us at AA then....:suspect:

dont believe everything you read in the press or hear from people who have nothing to do with us....

[IXUS40]

.... and Boeing have significant internal problems. Previous project manager of the Boeing AATTS contract left the company to join AA. Have heard from a reliable source that the tradesmen are very unhappy at the Oakey site and the pilot instructors are getting fed up with poor mid level management (1 senior QFI left recently to join KBR as a Tiger QFI). This is certainly not an easy one for defence.

[mechchick]

Interesting considering KBR lost that contract.....(well so we have been told:confused: any confirmations?)

From the maintainers perspective its a tough one. After the whole Helitech thing (I worked for Helitech there for nearly 6 years before joining AA) where the guys were getting paid more than any other contractor there as well as the 'perks if you like of working within an Army unit (sport days, Friday after work drinks etc) Boeing was probably a rude shock to a few people especially when the pay was a lot less and there were a few people who ended up seconded to the Sikorsky Fly-In Fly-Out R2 jobs...

Boeings biggest problem at Oakey is a lack of experience, and an inability to attact any decent talent to the Oakey location. Its not a great place to be if you actually want a career, thats why I left after all :E

All told Boeing doesnt get many good write ups from anyone I have met who either works for them at Amberley or Oakey, or is a former employee of...that says something, problem is sounds like management arent really listening.

Those of us who left are very glad we have done, and the sniggers that go on about some of the people they have working for them ADF wide are getting louder, with a lot of people just walking away shaking their heads :rolleyes:

[mechchick]

Somehow I knew I would get a response like that...and no its not bar talk, then again the people I talk to are not aircrew....

Tightly Wound:

FI? Flying Instructor? When was the last time your type worried about what happens to maintainers and their conditions of employment anyways?! As long as you get a SERV aircraft I have not seen too many pilots at Oakey denegrate themselves to get a spanner off the toolboard and help!! :E Although I can name one off the top of my head, but he has since retired!

I moved on before it became Boeing, so I am hardly a disgruntled ex-employee, and I have no desire to work at Oakey with Boeing, been there done that...you can accuse me of burning my bridges if you like instead :p

I was critical of the place when Helitech were there - there are a few people still there that know that, it wasnt really a secret!

As for Boeing being our main competitor? Thats funny! We build choppers, I do not see any Boeing helicopters in the mix anywhere when it comes to recent ADF Helo aquisitions!...:E

Instead of accusing people of sensationalism have you considered that this is the image of Boeing many people in Army Aviation maintenance circles have of the place? So why is this? Do tell! Apart from the throwaway line about it being easy to 'trash talk'....maybe as this is a public internet forum the term 'trolling' might have been more appropriate? Probably not, we are all entitled to an opinion and post it publically in PPRUNE after all ;)

If none of these slanderous lies and heresay are true why do people talk about the place like this then? Why hasn't Boeing done a better job at PR about the place? Why are there many disgruntled ex-employees from Oakey then? Why are there so many criticisms full stop if everything is running so swimmingly for them?!

I am not criticising Boeing as a company, nor some of their excellent maintainers out at Oakey, merely raising a point about what people are saying about the place. I dont start these things, I like to listen though.

The 'trash talk' as you put it is also coming from people employed by Boeing as well as former employees. I am sure there are also a few disgruntled ex-AA people out there as well, that will happily rubbish AA, thats the same for any company and ex-employees out here in the real world.

A question then...So why did Boeing have trouble trying to retain some of its maintenance staff when they first took over ASGW? (Or was this just another vicious lie?!) There seemed to be a few people no-longer required sure, but there were also a few people that left for greener pastures without even thinking about seeing what was on offer...if it is all lies please enlighten us all and we can stop these discussions and rumours by anyone outside of Boeing (as if that will ever happen - thats like asking people in the Army to stop criticising AA now isnt it?!)

Remember people talk within the Defence contract world about the state of play, just some of the 'trash talk' is currently about Boeing at Oakey...

It would be interesting to see if you can actually understand the plight of the poor Defence contract maintainer without looking at it through the rose coloured glasses aircrew seem to wear at times ;)

Professional Pilots Rumors are not what I was discussing, I am talking about Professional Maintainers Rumors....

[OPSH24]

As for Boeing being our main competitor? Thats funny! We build choppers, I do not see any Boeing helicopters in the mix anywhere when it comes to recent ADF Helo aquisitions!...

CH47s ???

and if you think that the rotary market is all your parent company(ies) is interested in, you might not understand company strategies.

[IXUS40]

I was merely stating 3 facts & not talking 'smack'.

1. Previous project manager has left to join AA, the direct competitor of Boeing for the upcoming contract.
2. Senior FI left to join KBR, a subcontractor for AA.
3. Maintainers are unhappy (I am from the tradesman arena and am aware of the current morale issues facing the Oakey site). I am also aware of pilot issues within the Boeing company. Tightly Wound, if you are not aware of either you are either a) Mid level management or b) you do not have the ear of your fellow tradesmen/FI's when it comes to these issues.

The strategic move of Boeing joining with AW in an exclusive partnership is smart but not surprising. They were hardly going to get an airframe like a multirole EC135 (the other realistic contender apart from A109) for their bid, considering the AA association with Eurocopter in Australia. The decision for preferred tenderer will now come down to who is best placed to provide a versatile multi-role platform (remembering that the airframe will not only provide basic pilot rotary wing conversions but aircrewman winch and sling training as well as ARH/MRH support). (I know pilots who have flown both the 109 & 135 and to a man they prefer the Eurocopter product for its power, increased cabin space and outright versatility). This combined with quality of training for the right cost to the ADF is central to the bids that are being formulated.

And no, I am neither Boeing nor AA/KBR (but am taking a keen interest from an ADF/taxpayer perspective as I believe the ensuing tussle will be a hard fought one - it is certainly not a one horse race!).

Enjoy your breakfast:hmm:

[Curious2]

If all the users think EC135 is the better machine then A109 has it in the bag. Isn't that how the Australian Army selected Tiger and MRH90? Both machines so well suited to the Australian Army and performing so well in transition into service...whenever that is.

The problem with the military contracts are their administration. While ever contractors (whoever they are) can get away with what they want and make mega bucks they will. The only reason why there is poor morale with Boeing at the moment is that they are the current contractor. When some of these ex-military guys have to leave such a contractor and make it outside in the real world they may get a sense of reality.

Any follow up on the rumour KBR have lost the Tiger contract? Interesting rumour. When will the media realise that the sim is also crap? :bored: And accepted against user advice? Sounds like some Tigers that are currently in service.

[rivnut]

The EC135 and A109(talking A109S/LUH) are both capable aircraft with merits on both sides. The A109S is a very powerful machine with high speed and endurance, the EC135 not as powerful or fast (like most french machines once you go past 25deg the power wanes) but has a wider cabin and more suited to utility use.

Both can winch fine and sling. The A109 has retractable U/C which makes for a good transition to similar larger types. The EC135 has skids making it more useful for training into unprepared landing sites although the mast moment indicator will be challenging for the Army during training. After all the EC135 is only a souped up BO105!!

It will be interesting to watch how the Navy goes with its A109s as this could be a good indicator of how the A109 will perform for the Army in the training role. Unfortunately there are only 2 EC135's, that I know, operating in this country,one private and one with QR....interesting to see how well its been performing for them?

At the end of the day it will come down to money and politics (how many jobs will the acquisition generate)...lets wait and see:rolleyes:!!

[Sambo Boy]

Why would anyone want to pick an EADS product.. Now the wait for a B3 has gone up to 2012 for delivery I would think that those frogs really have too much on their plate now and dont need to source any more work until they can deliver what is needed now. As for Turbomecca a six month overhaul turn around just for an Arriel Module 3 stinging the customer 250 to 350 K...

As long as the military monkeys making the decisions arn't the same ones who made the Seasprite ones we should be happy. As long as Capt Bloggs can fly his helicopter for a few years as a SSO and get out who cares.. except us the taxpayer who doesn't care as long as we dont get ripped off.

[helopat]

Just an aside, the aircraft that is chosen will be a joint Army/Navy training type which will replace kiowa and squirrel.

HP

[Torquer]

Seems like everyone here's an expert on HATS and it's implications. Here's me thinking that the analysis and project direction was driven by the two pass acquisition process, with constant review at all levels, from user to training design. It'd save a hell of a lot of time if the project team just logged onto PPRUNE to get answers, wouldn't it?

[Sambo Boy]

Typical public service talk.. too interested in the process and not the result.

[Torquer]

No, of course your right. The majority of major capital procurement decisions around the world are made by people who flip coins and believe the first gun-runners pitch that comes along. All that guff about 'process' and 'governance' are just wank words used to confuse those who just KNOW what the right decision is just by looking at the kit on the tarmac.

[Sambo Boy]

Yes, just like the circus behind the Seasprite, no doubt gun runners could have done a better job than the RAN and all and sundry behind that joke. How much has this cost the taxpayer, not just the purchase cost but everything else from Jack Tar sitting around the crewroom doing nuff all to useless PR trips around the country side showing off the biggest lemon the fleet air arm has ever had in service. Hope some heads roll over this one but one could guess that there will be a lot of blame passing and ducking for cover here.