Jailed Flt Lt

[Bo Nalls]

This must be a first (http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/headlines/display.var.2054698.0.raf_man_jailed_for_forgeries.php), trying to get into Iraq :confused:

[helidriver]

Maybe the Father-in-Law is a Walt as well?

[Yeller_Gait]

Maybe the Father-in-Law is a Walt as well?

Perhaps he just used to impersonate the Staish at Waddington?

Y_G

[Chris Kebab]

rather uncalled for helidriver - he is well known to many on this forum...

[TACC-tician]

Perhaps YG just used to impersonate an operator.......

[SpotterFC]

He put the para badge back on? - or does that charge relate to a couple of years ago?

[Pure Pursuit]

Met him a couple of times, a complete chimp & V.vain!

I know the E3 guys aren't doing much on Operations at the moment & are trying to justify their existence but bloody hell lads!!!:ugh:

[olderbloke]

Kebab - Well said.

An awkward situation methinks...

[tablet_eraser]

Gutted as I am to see an old friend fall like this, I think it's fair to say that most of those who know him realise that there were always, shall we say, some issues in his life that were bound to resolve themselves one way or the other. I don't know how he'll cope with prison, but I hope he leaves with a slightly more realistic perspective on his life, his abilities, and his capacity for causing himself damage. He's been dealt with fairly, and I hope he's given a fair chance by everyone to sort his life out when he's released.

[goudie]

Some downfall but didn't his C.O. have, at least, some some inkling as to his character? Seems other people did. A touch of 'I told you so' here.

[rudekid]

Come on, someone must know some details...:E

Seems a bit harsh sending someone to jail for being out of date for IRT in theatre.:}

There goes another green house window...

[SpotterFC]

Rude Kid

As always, if you don't know the details (and I don't) - you probably don't need to. FOI it if you're desperate.

If nothing else I have to feel deeply sorry for Dave's parents. Especially if, given the family connections, this gets bigger than the Wiltshire Gazette and Herald. If he took some of us for a ride I'm assuming he must have taken them for a world tour, and this will have been an horrendous shock.

[Pontius Navigator]

Spotter FC, if you Google I am afraid you will see many references to the Scotsman. Now it is in the nationals . . .

[SpotterFC]

PN - check PMs

[minigundiplomat]

I don't see the problem. A great number of our officer corp have been impersonating leaders and managers for years.

[Jackonicko]

Sounds as though some psychiatric treatment might be more useful for this bloke than chokey, to me.

That might seem terribly wet and liberal, but from a civvy perspective, he hasn't done much to deserve jail (when you see what people do and then get a bit of community service), and while he may be a pratt (reading between the lines of some posts) and perhaps even a walt, he did earn his commission, and he did go to Iraq to serve us.

I find it very hard to condemn anyone who has done that, because I'll never have to.

And how very sad for his parents, his prospective in-laws and his wife to be. If she still is.....

[Rakshasa]

I'd agree overall but the thing is, Jacko, we're supposed to be professionals.

Walting as an all-arms qualed bloke in the mess at happy hour is one thing but going there in that sort of post, when in truth he wasn't what he said he was, could've got himself, or worse other people killed.

From that perspective, I'm not suprised they took it pretty seriously.

[caped crusader]

Tablet Eraser

I don't know the poor guy, but I was impressed by your post. I hope he gets help to sort his problems out when he comes out of jail. More than one family affected by his actions.

TIGS 2

Fully agree with your comments. Having worked for the Air Cdre I have found him to be a firm but fair leader who was highly respected by his staff.

[rmac]

Having been out rather a long time now, I am intrigued at the concept of needing a set of certificates to go to war ? Can anyone explain what those certificates would be ?

I remember during GW1 the number of Regiment chaps who would lie, steal cheat and sell their grandmother for a sniff of the action, allegedly including a Squadron commander who took his entire field squadron on unauthorised walkabout.

As for professionals, well no one knows how they will perform on the two way range until their first time out, and a number of TA soldiers including an Edinburgh Bus Driver/TA loggie with an MC, testify that training and certificates are no guarantee. I would be interested to understand how this chap actually performed in his seven months in Iraq before attempting to judge him.

Remember that WWII was won by the amateurs and eccentrics after the professionals had been left on the beaches of Dunkirk and Singapore

On the face of it What a shame that their appears to be no room for eccentrics any more.

[Whenurhappy]

RMAC - I take your point that the unconventional military mind is an asset (something I have been trying to convince my superiors for years :}) but the difference in this case was the ex-Officer in question was a liar and a cheat - not judicious fraud for the greater good - but for his self-aggrandizement. Inter alia he uttered documents and he retained ammunition without lawful intent (although I had a similar experience trying to return US-issued ammo after HERRICK; the difference is that I percevered to have it taken safely!).

The certificates required show that you are weapons trained and qualified (on spec ific weapons systems); have done the appropriate Theatre reinforcement training (eg minimum fitness level, ambush drills, suicide attacks, basic trauma care, CAC etc). Whilst these are no guarantee of an individual's performance under fire, at least they show that s/he has been trained.

Bottom line - how could we in the military ever trust this man's judgement and honesty...

[soddim]

I have to agree with Jacko - if this chap was a politician the media would sell a bunch of newspapers on the strength of the story, he would be taken to the Standards Board - they would probably just censor him and he would get re-elected at the next election by the same sort of stupid twits who have voted this government in twice.

OK - I am extremely pleased that the military are not of that ilk but jail seems a little harsh when set against civilian norms of today.

[AdanaKebab]

I know Dave well (worked in the same office 2002-2005) and I hope he manages to pick up the pieces of his life when he gets out. He clearly needs some psychological / counselling help.
Those that knew him best were well aware of his 'extra badges'.

It puts me in mind of a picture taken of him (still in the instructors office at boulmer sfc) to demonstrate the category Faker. Somehow seems very apt!

Will he be in Colchester or a civvie clink? Anyone know?
I'd like to write to him.

[Gaz ED]

"An RAF airman has been jailed for three months and dismissed from the service for forging qualifications so he could go to Iraq, it was revealed yesterday."

Typical media!

[fawkes]

Without the facts and without knowing the idividual, it is almost impossible to reach a proper conclusion: perhaps it would be best not to comment at all. The case, however, raises important questions.

One can only trust that tried by serving officers, he got a fair hearing. Do not write this man off too eagerly: In the Words of 16th C English Protestant martyr John Bradford, "there but for the grace of God". The problem may, however, sometimes be that a moment's madness leads to inevitable further falsification to cover it up. There are people serving who may nver have made an error of judgement in their whole career: these I find very frightening. It takes enormous courage to confess failure but it also requires trust in superiors and support from them: in our new blame culture I find that this may be lacking. What sort of bureaucratically led culture do we have that someone thinks that they have to falsify paperwork in the first place?

I suspect that the savage (and possibly unhelpful) sentence of imprisonment relates more in our paranoid epoch of "gun crime" to the posession of ammunition, rather than the falsification of qualifications. I am appalled, though, at the suggestion that the ammunition would not be taken on charge/disposed of safely without the correct paperwork: I trust that this will be addressed internally.

If he potentially put others in danger, than that is bad news and his departure and conscience will haunt him always: what saddens me about this is that in an era when we are falling over ourselves to demonstrate duty of care, it appears that when there is greatest physical courage in our young people deploying into harm's way, there is the greatest moral cowardice amongst our leadership, particularly the politicians and our politicised seniors. Honesty is rightly highly prised amongst the more junior members of the Armed Forces: this appears to become less so higher up the tree.

The training is without question for the benefit of the individual: the certification is for the prevention of embarrasment to the CoC and the Gubment after things have gone wrong. I would like to pose one question: as we continue to pare down training on the grounds of cost are we certain that every qualification means "competent", or does it really mean "attended"? I think that this has important implications. I know people who are not professionally qualified but are competent and people who are not professionally competent who are fully trained. Do your people trust you enough to say either: "Boss, Ive f*cked up.." or "I am not fully confident with my abilty to..."? What would your reaction be?

It is a pretty pass when we concentrate so hard on the process and the paperwork that we cannot see if there is a real problem with our people? Less management, more leadership please.

[rmac]

Thanks for picking up on some of the issues that I was hinting at and commenting so eloquently Fawkes.

God knows what todays process driven system would have made of Lawrence of Arabia for example.......although I suppose he would be able to "come out" of course.....

You are probably right that the jail relates to the ammunition. Many years ago an ex-Para acquaintance of mine who had joined the Lothian and Borders police decided to liven up a terrorism lecture at Tulliallan Police College by bringing some souvenirs to class, oops:ugh: end of a fledgling police career, no jail though !

[Jackonicko]

Rakshasa,

Some degree of punishment was clearly appropriate, and I'm sorry if I seemed to suggest otherwise.

It just seemed rather sad, to me, and I wondered whether there shouldn't be a bit more emphasis on helping the bloke than on simply locking him up.

No-one joins the services because they failed the M&S interview - it's a vocation and a lifestyle, and being slung out will be a disgrace and a trauma that might be (Might!) punishment enough?

[Whenurhappy]

At a small risk of thread creep, people do join the Services after they fail an M&S interview. Up to 30% of enlisted personnel in the British Army list that it joining the army was the 'career of last resort'.

Let's face facts. This Flt Lt deliberately wore badges he knew he was not entitled to wear; moreover he forged documents that could have endangered his life and the lives of others. He is a Walter Mitty, not Lawrence of Arabia or Orde Wingate or David Stirling or Douglas Bader...

For the outing of Walts, have a look at www.anzmi.net (http://www.anzmi.net) for a laugh.

[Rakshasa]

Rakshasa,

Some degree of punishment was clearly appropriate, and I'm sorry if I seemed to suggest otherwise.

It just seemed rather sad, to me, and I wondered whether there shouldn't be a bit more emphasis on helping the bloke than on simply locking him up.

No-one joins the services because they failed the M&S interview - it's a vocation and a lifestyle, and being slung out will be a disgrace and a trauma that might be (Might!) punishment enough?

Jacko,

I must stress I agree with you and your opinion is a perfectly valid one, so there's no need to say sorry! :ok: But as I said, I can see why the court weren't particularly lenient.

You're right though, it's a very sad outcome for Dave, his friends and family and perhaps, a lesson for the rest of us about not getting too carried away.

[Dan D'air]

Isn't the phrase "RAF Officer" an oxymoron anyway?

[4mastacker]

"............ I am appalled, though, at the suggestion that the ammunition would not be taken on charge/disposed of safely without the correct paperwork: I trust that this will be addressed internally."

Slightly off-topic. Whatever happened to the phrase "Received without covering vouchers" that stackers used to use to cover a multitude of cases where kit turned up from unexpected quarters. That phrase has, over the years, got a lot of people out of the poo and could have been used by the (allegedly) dump jobsworths in this guy's case (that is, if he did indeed approach the dumpies).

If the matter is addressed internally, I would expect OC Supply (or whatever the title is these days) to be testing the trade knowledge of his staff.

[Wader2]

deliberately wore badges he knew he was not entitled to wear

Our station commander, an air commodore, completed a number of water jumps and awarded himself a set of para wings. No one commented. He was certainly a charismatic personality who sadly died before retirement.

Wasn't there also some question about Churchill and pilot's wings?

[Roadster280]

It seems to me that any member of the Armed Forces who has been guilty of forgery and firearms offences would be in serious trouble.

Mitigating factors:

1. By some accounts, he's a nice chap.
2. No malice seems to have been intended.

There are however some aggravating factors:

1. This was an commissioned officer, and the forgery calls into question his integrity.
2. These offences are related to deployment to an operational theatre, with its attendant dangers, not a backwater of the training establishment.
3. The ammunition was kept for seven months, not a week or two.

Imprisonment and being cashiered seems appropriate to the severity of the offences. Certainly an NCO would be looking at MCTC for this, therefore the sentence for an officer must be no less.

Maybe the time in the Greybar Hotel will be an opportunity to reflect on certain choices, and having paid the debt to military society, he can proceed with life from a new perspective. He will be free to choose his own future, and make the best out of life, like the rest of us.

[goudie]

Wasn't there also some question about Churchill and pilot's wings?

He did like to sit at the controls when given the chance so probably Honorary

[tablet_eraser]

It just seemed rather sad, to me, and I wondered whether there shouldn't be a bit more emphasis on helping the bloke than on simply locking him up.

THanks for saying so. Believe me, the biggest disgrace as far as Sharpy is concerned will be his dismissal from the Service; I've never met anyone so utterly devoted to, and proud of, the RAF. Whatever people think about his integrity, he remains one of the best and most loyal colleagues I've ever worked with, and I will stand by him.

The thing that sticks in my throat, and I'm sure AdanaKebab will be able to relate to it, is that for years we knew that he was acting out a role that he couldn't fulfill. At the moment, I can't help but think that, perhaps, if we'd told him to stop bulls:mad:tting, if we'd stopped indulging his crass errors of judgment, we could have avoided the current mess. I guess he's been allowed to get himself into this situation when it really could have been avoided, and that makes me feel very uneasy. Sometimes the friendliest thing to do is to have some harsh words with someone for his own protection.

[Back in the Barrel]

My favourite Walt is Sir Alan McIlwraith KBE DSO MC. He certainly bears all the hallmarks associated with this sort of activity:8

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Mcilwraith

[goudie]

Sometimes the friendliest thing to do is to have some harsh words with someone for his own protection.

Plenty of stable doors slamming shut now.
His behavior should have been checked long before it got this far. I hope pertinent questions are asked re. his immediate Senior Officer(S)

[AdanaKebab]

tablet eraser, you know as well as I do that Sharpy wouldn't listen even if you told him straight. He would have told you he was right and would have shown you the 'paperwork' if you'd asked him!

Reminds me of some Eagles lyrics ...' it seems to me some fine things have been laid upon your table, but you always want the ones that you can't get'

I guess he'll be realising now what he had ... and you're right .. it will be hitting him very hard which is why I wanted to write to him.
Do you know if he is doing civvie or military porridge?

Remember: A commission is an extremely difficult thing to gain and those of us who have, are extremely fortunate to hold one .... Earn it everyday!

[TACC-tician]

Adana, tablet,

Check your PMs.

[SirToppamHat]

I believe the normal course of events is for those expected to return to service to go to MCTC, whilst those who are dismissed go to a civvie prison.

I am not sure what category of prison he will go to in this case though.

More than anything else, this is a very sad case.

STH

[goudie]

Sharpy wouldn't listen even if you told him straight. He would have told you he was right and would have shown you the 'paperwork' if you'd asked him!



I get the sneaking feeling that this is a case of 'given enough rope'....................................

[AdanaKebab]

Thanks STH.

I've got the gen I need now. Hope his new wife is holding up with the shock.

[tablet_eraser]

TACC-tician, AK,

Got the message, tvm.

I get the sneaking feeling that this is a case of 'given enough rope'....................................

Well, those of us who've allowed the rope to reach its current length should certainly consider how best to avoid anything like this happening again. If nothing else, it's a lesson in the value of being a good friend; whatever his faults, Sharpy is a good friend to people, and I think it only fair that we reward his loyalty by helping him through the tough days ahead. He stood by me during a very difficult time in my life, and I'd feel awful if I left him to it.

[minigundiplomat]

Remember: A commission is an extremely difficult thing to gain


I wouldn't go that far. I'm sure I could have lowered my standards far enough for a ground branch comission.

Respect. That is a difficult thing to gain.

And yes, if those who knew the bloke had taken him to one side and given a reality check, I'm sure he would be turning up for work tommorrow as normal.

[Tigs2]

Mini

I am not sure a reality check would have worked. Not naming any names but we had a chap we called IBM... the Incredible Bul*******g Man. Despite being given many reality checks, nothing worked. A very nice guy but unable to stop telling the most ridiculous stories.


Antelope I think you are right, but although a harder environment, Colchester would be a much safer place any day of the week

[PlasticCabDriver]

Tigs, you're not wrong! The uncovering of his "I'll meet you in New York" story with RP was magnificent.

[goudie]

I am not sure a reality check would have worked

Not by his mates it wouldn't but a stiff lecture by a Senior Officer, to the affect that his commision was at risk may have had the desired affect. Too late now, I do hope he gets the support that's been promised.

[St Johns Wort]

Was that that the same guy who kept his 1250 after he'd left the service and blagged his way into Officers Messes around the country getting cheap accommodation? Or was that a different guy altogether?

[teeteringhead]

I didn't think an officer could be sent to Colchester, isn't discharge the only option and then civilian imprisonment (Which is what I presume happened in this case)? ... exactly so. Officers always go to civvy jails.

Or should I say ex-officers .... an ancient perk (IIRC) of the Queen's Commission (trusty and well beloved etc etc) is that holders cannot go to jail ..... not the easy get out tho' ... you lose the commission just before the door slams.....!!!

.... comparable in a way to the Roman tradition that virgins could not be executed ............

[Tigs2]

Plastic :D How funny was that:D

St John

I don't think so. I am not sure how long he has been out, but I know many many people that seem to 'lose' ;) their 1250 prior to departure. Why anyone would want to stay in the mess is beyond me, when ion your room you are still not afforded the basics of a travel lodge.

[blue monday]

I kept my 1250 for some reason, that was nearly 3 years ago, not used it since but if petrol blockades happened again it would be useful as the military were classed as essential users last time out!

As for the subject matter of this thread, got to feel for the guys wife to be, but suppose with good behaviour hell be out in 6 weeks!

[JessTheDog]

We should all hope that Sharpy recovers from this. It is a terrible thing to lose one's career, particularly when so much is invested in it. Also, the hardest expectations to live up to are the ones we set ourselves, particularly in the military environment. These are not excuses, but perhaps a little understanding and support may be more appropriate now that judgement has been passed. When you hit rock bottom the only way is back up....easier said than done.

[rmac]

To the friends of Dave.

I'm heavily involved in the global PSC (private security company) scene, and might be able to offer a little help and guidance for Dave after he does his time.

Its unlikely that a big player could take him on, but there are lots of smaller players who might be able to offer an opportunity that will give him a chance to re-build at management level in an interesting environment. He will probably have to go to exile though initially and take projects in far flung miserable places. But with willingness and drive, he might create a new career out of it.

So if you think it might help, PM me.

rmac

[SpotterFC]

rmac

It's a nice gesture, but I think it might not be the best environment for him - probably better to make a clean break and get away from the military scene altogether. This stigma will always hover over him if he comes into contact with UK (or Coalition) forces in a professional capacity again. He has broken the bond of trust and that is very very difficult to rebuild. Regardless of the rehabilitation of offenders act, mud sticks.

Whatever he does he needs to sort out his ability to see fact from self-deluding fiction, and doesn't need to be in a place that might tempt him to try to profess to be something he isn't again.

[Neptunus Rex]

One very sad story.
Was Sharpy given any form of psychiatric examination prior to sentencing?
In which branch of the service did he serve?

Given the appallingly light sentences currently awarded to real crims with 'previous,' I think that gaol was simply OTT, but can a Court Martial award a suspended sentence?

Neppie

[snapper41]

I'm sure I could have lowered my standards far enough for a ground branch comission.


What a kn*b:rolleyes:

[Mr-Burns]

Lets stop the sypathetic bo**ocks and say it as it is.

This is a sad loser who deserves eveything he gets.

[RETDPI]

Quote:
Originally Posted by minigundiplomat http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3925862#post3925862)
I'm sure I could have lowered my standards far enough for a ground branch comission.

What a kn*b:rolleyes:


No.
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.
.
.
.
An illiterate kn*b.

[GPMG]

I wouldn't go that far. I'm sure I could have lowered my standards far enough for a ground branch comission.
Respect. That is a difficult thing to gain.

Such a shame that you continually make every effort to lose what you seem to find so difficult to gain then.

[Tigs2]

Mr-Burns
Lets stop the sypathetic bo**ocks and say it as it is.

This is a sad loser who deserves eveything he gets.

Do you know Sharpy?? Your words are pretty harsh. Like Neptunus Rex, I do not think he deserved a jail sentence. if the guy was a 'bad un' nobody on this forum would be offering help of any sort. Clearly he is not, and many people like him. We all have issues that creep into our lives, it's just for him they have had tragic consequences.

[Mr-Burns]

I do know sharpy and he's alwys been a kn*b. There are many people out there that have really been there, seen it, done it and understandably have been effected by it - this tw*t isnt one of them.

He was so far from the front lines he had to send his washing forward !!!

[airborne_artist]

Hindsight is the perfect tool, but I can't help wondering (though I know none of the circumstances) if the issues that contributed to this, and the behaviour that resulted, should not have been flagged and acted upon by his immediate colleagues and his superiors. It seems odd that he managed to leave the rails by quite a distance without warning signs being spotted.

We had a guy go to prison for 18 months, for GBH. He got 18 months. he couldn't re-join the regt of course, but he's totally one of us and has been very successful in his life since.

[goudie]

I do know sharpy and he's alwys been a kn*b.


And you Mr Burns? Apart from being holier than thou that is!

[Mr-Burns]

Oh I'm a kn*b too. But I'm not a liar.

[parabellum]

I appreciate this person had falsified documents and claimed a lot of qualifications he never had but amongst my colleagues his biggest sin would have been to wear wings he never earned.

[Tigs2]

Parabellum

Agreed. But I for one as someone who did earn wings, do not think he deserves jail for wearing them. The loss of his career, the shame he must bear with his soon to be wife (if it happens now!), whose father is a 1*, is a significant punishment. He was wrong to keep the ammo, and should have made a concerted effort to return it. There are lots of people out there who have kept rounds, just incase they loose some in the future. I cannot condone what he has done, I just disagree with the jail sentence. Discharge on its own would have been a severe enough punishment. I just hope he gets through civvie prison unscathed.

[GPMG]

So did he make out that he had passed the All Arms Commando course and earnt a Green Lid?

If so then I think he's a bit of a Knob but that is hardly worthy of a jail term, contravening firearms regulations though is pretty naughty though, although I don't know many blokes that haven't found a couple of rounds or a box of 5.56 in their jacket and just stowed it in their cupboard.

Blimey during the 90's most PW's had more blank and live rounds, chinese firecrackers and thundies in their lofts or garage than the ammo store on camp. It was the only way to ensure that courses had enough ammunition or sims to make the final ex's seem realistic.

Shouting 'Bang' does take the effect away to a certain extent.

[Yellow Sun]

Tigs 2

I do not think he deserved a jail sentence

Whether he deserved it or not, the Firearms Act offence made it inevitable. The defence of "exceptional circumstances" is pretty hard to justify.

YS

[Wader2]

GPMG, we found a number of 7.62 rounds in an ex-army vehicle. A local was found to have some belts of 7.62 in his house, got a tap on his wrist and not even a caution, more a hard stare.

Another local had his street cleared while EOD removed a number of live mortar rounds.

[minigundiplomat]

What a kn*b:rolleyes:


No.
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An illiterate kn*b.


Your 58 and living in South Africa. I think I can make my own mind up about serving officers thank you. If I want a comment about Antelope, you will be my first port of call mon brave.


Such a shame that you continually make every effort to lose what you seem to find so difficult to gain then.



Im sorry you feel that way, as you are normally the voice of reason. However, it is not a SNCO up in court for lying, is it?

And I have to say I agree with Mr Burns. The fact this Walt may be a nice chap, with a wife does not excuse what he did. Those rushing to his defence because they know him are the very people who had a duty to bring him back to reality over the years. It would seem they had other things to do.

[RETDPI]

"Your 58 and living in South Africa. I think I can make my own mind up about serving officers thank you. If I want a comment about Antelope, you will be my first port of call mon brave ."

Amusingly, you now combine further illiterate and irrelevant remarks with a demonstrable ignorance of Natural History.
There are ,of course, no "antelope" in South Africa.

Q.E.D. concerning my, and others, comments I think.

[minigundiplomat]

Antelope pictures displayed here - including impala, kudu, waterbuck and steenbuck - were taken mainly in South Africa's Kruger National Park


Check out www.wildlife-pictures-online/antelopepictures2.html (http://www.wildlife-pictures-online/antelopepictures2.html)




KNOB!

[hoodie]

Check out www.wildlife-pictures-online/antelopepictures2.html (http://www.wildlife-pictures-online/antelopepictures2.html)
Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage


:E:D

[PlasticCabDriver]

http://www.wildlife-pictures-online.com/antelopepictures2.html

Not that difficult is it?

[rmac]

Well congratulations, it took at least four pages for this thread to degenerate in to non related mud slinging.

Off to bed with you children :sad:

[RETDPI]

Ref. the above half-cock thread drift remarks about S.A. Buck and Gazelle- you will note that none have the common name here of "antelope" .
Which was why of course I put it in inverted commas in the first place.

[C130 Techie]

As posted on the 'accommodation at the Deid' thread

I pondered how the bosses might manage the content of pprune by simply employing some dude to setup a dozen or so user accounts and ensuring every thread quickly degenerates into a slanging match, thus turning genuinely interested contributors away.

Anybody wonder if they have cottoned on to my idea?

It would seem that they have:ugh:

[St Johns Wort]

You've been pretty scathing about this bloke. As a matter of interest, do you known anybody like Sharpy? If you do, what have you done about it?:hmm:

[roony]

I'm confused. Are there Antelope in South Africa or not?

[RETDPI]

Roony. See your P.M.s :)

[minigundiplomat]

I'm confused. Are there Antelope in South Africa or not?


Yes. RETARDPI seems to like hiding behind semantics. A similar analogy would be like announcing there are no snakes in Australia. We all know there is, but they belong to sub-groupings such as Taipan, Python, or Eastern Brown. Similarly, the Antelope are sub-grouped into Kudu etc.


You've been pretty scathing about this bloke. As a matter of interest, do you known anybody like Sharpy? If you do, what have you done about it?


I know several people who fit this guys description. Some have been sorted out with a few well aimed banter rockets, some with a more direct approach, from myself and others. I've also seen several similar individuals nipped in the bud by an effective 1RO come Mid Term time.

[Al R]

Having read this, the one thing that always saddens me about these sorts of threads is the amount of assasins creeping out of the woodwork, rubbing their hands with glee. He may or may not have been a plonker but he's not the person I see right now, queuing up to anonymously stick the knife in someone when they're down. I wonder.. just how much difference is there between the backstabbers and him, and just who is worse?

We all have feet of clay, but there's no need to be so unsavoury about gloating.

[minigundiplomat]

AL R.

Agreed. However, my point all along has been that this could have been nipped in the bud earlier, saving this individual from such a high fall from grace.

[Al R]

Minigun,

I didn't have you in mind when I wrote that and I agree with your last point. No system is perfect but those who allowed things to escalate as far as they did, need to carry some collective responsibilty.. although of course, the buck stops with the person involved.

I accept that much of what the military does, needs to be treated differently to how civvie street is run but there is far too laissez faire and management self preservation when the **** hits the fan. There needs to be more transparent accountability (in this matter for instance) to ensure the military preserves a unique way of operating and being ringfenced accordingly, to becoming anachronistic, arrogant and unnaccountable.

Someone was responsible for this man, and thats as good a place to start as any. With regards to the matter of the ammunition, and to keep things in perspective..

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/02/20/army-bullets-sold-for-80-each-on-black-market-86908-20325242/

[Mr-Burns]

There are definitely Scimitar Horned Oryx in South Africa but I don't know if its an antelope or not.

TIGS2 - ever thought about becoming a magistrate?? I'm sure our criminal fraternity would love to appear in front of you to be told that they were obviously misunderstood and that they were forgiven as long as they promised not to do it again. Bloody liberals.

[RETDPI]

"Minigundiplomat" ( which is rather a surprising self epithet for a 36 year old officer, I would have thought) I do not hide behind semantics.
Perhaps you might try the same and stand up in front of your Station and announce (sic)
"I'm sure I could have lowered my standards far enough for a ground branch comission."

Or are they already well familiar with your attitude?

[Lima Juliet]

Minigun et al

On the subject of 1st ROs and command chains of this individual and responsibility...

Do you really believe that they are?! They would need to search their subordinates, their luggage and their house every time they returned from detachment. On the subject of the forgery, would you check every subordinates service record? Even then would you know what you are looking for? I understand from scuttlebutt that this individual even faked unit stamps and letterheads (unconfirmed). Furthermore, I understand that he may well have been entitled to wear the parachute qual badge without wings (unconfirmed)- do you know the difference in criteria and would you spot it?

I'm afraid this young Walt has only himself to blame. However, I do believe that the sentence is harsh (I'm with Tigs on this one) but at the same time I guess the GCM wanted to deter the thousands returning from det every year?

LJ

PS with you on the antelope banter...

[Al R]

Leon,

If a copper knocked on my door one evening and told me that my children had been smashing windows, I wouldn't say ".. and? Do you expect me to keep an eye on them all the time?". I have responsibility, and so does this man's chain of command, and (at least to an extent) it has to accept a sense of culpability in allowing this debacle to develop.

Of course, if its too difficult to establish at a glance, a man's service record and be able to identify what he has and hasn't done..

[GPMG]

Whether he's a walt or not, nice guy or a legend in his own lunchtime doesnt really matter regarding the jail term.

He contravened regulations regarding ammunition and firearms. Many blokes have done it, I'll admit to having the odd live round laying around having found it in my kit and not bothered to hand in (all gone now though). But he got caught and if you get caught you should get the book thrown at you to deter others.

[Mr-Burns]

Careful GPMG - TIGS 2 will be all over you for infringing Mr Sharps human rights.

[Lima Juliet]

Al

Point accepted, although in mitigation of the leadership he did appear to go to extraordinary effort to decieve. We're not talking about a handwritten amendment to a green card, but a complex forgery job akin to Colditz or The Great Escape!

Would I have spotted the alleged forgery? I very much doubt it...

LJ

[minigundiplomat]

Or are they already well familiar with your attitude?


I think everybody on my parent unit is aware of how I view things. You may not agree with my opinions, but I do not attempt to dress it up, follow an agenda or generally quote what is fashionable at the time.

Many find it refreshing, some find it rude, others just take it for what it is, one person's opinion.

More people have benefitted than become upset. Leon, I take your point but if you know your chaps, you'll know who's bags are likely to contain more than dirty laundry.

Think back to day one, week one at IOT/Basic Trg. When someone screwed up were they punished, or was everyone punished?

That was to instill collective responsibility. There is still a place for it.

Anyway, has anyone seen my Hampshire Golden Horned Deer?

[RETDPI]

Like most of us, I do find it disturbing that what seems to be a prima facie case of dangerous "Walting" within the Service got so far, apart from the associated munitions issue.
Outside it seems to be alarmingly commonplace, witness some of the Websites devoted to the subject.
A fairly well known Group M.D. I knew some years ago in the Defence Industry was always, "The youngest WWII R.N. corvette captain" to an R.A.F. audience.
He then transformed into " The youngest R.A.F. aircraft captain on the Berlin Air Lift" when confronted by the Senior Service.
Immediate wry smiles all round from his managers, but deemed harmless: until it was seen to be associated with other, more serious, delusions, which came close to bringing the Group down.
One wonders what action , if any ,the Service might now consider in order to avoid any future repetition of this type of incident. Not easy.

[Al R]

I had a Flt Cdr who was once confined to the Mess because, when arrested for speeding on the M4, he claimed to be 14 Int and tailing an ASU. The Flt did the forthcoming NI tour inder the FS, he stayed behind and we never saw him again. Harmless..? I didn't mind him I have to say, and what he did was different to a sustained effort to deceive. He flapped, thought he could talk his way out of it and got caught out.

Yup, this guy has got no one but himself to blame, but consider this. If a successful job applicant (in civvy street) presented you with references that you don't bother following up on and which turned out to be a load of b:mad:cks, and he/she turned out to be a disaster.. then you have no one but yourself to blame. And the personnel manager would certainly be sweating and waiting for a P45. Are we saying the same rules don't apply here, or that we're not dealing with stakes that are high? Surely, we're not suggesting that we don't have the means to check whether presented in-house Q's have validity?

[PlasticCabDriver]

I've got an Aunty Sue, but no Aunty Lope. It's a stupid name anyway, is it Spanish?

[roony]

PCD

I don't think your taking this thread seriously, the world-wide distribution of medium sized Bovid should not be the subject of frivolity!

PS, did I mention I have been selected by NASA to join their Astronaut program for the next round of lunar landings?

[Mr-Burns]

Quick - Inform roonys line manager / specialist stakeholder interaction specialist / chain of command that he is making strange claims that are obviously untrue.

We wouldnt want him to end in jail. It would be all our fault.

[minigundiplomat]

Im a little confused now. Are they called Antelope because they 'lope' around, or is the verb 'to lope' derived from Antelope like antics?

It's a bit of a chicken and egg conundrum isn't it? Can anyone help?

[Wader2]

Al R, you are right about quals. How many 'doctors and dentists and even surgeons' have blagged their way into jobs and survived for years?

Onthe subject of responsibilities we had a Master Aircrew who was an alcoholic. We all knew he was a dypsomanic and not a pleasant drunk either. For some reason the hierarchy didn't do anything about it. Maybe it came into the TFD category.

They were on short 2-years tours (I'll be outta here soon); he was a warrant officer and teflon-coated we can't put him on formal warning; he is OK at his job (he wasn't).

He was even posted to an Ops job on hold for the Nimwacs, then his new station got him sorted.

I don't pretend it is easy but too many people find an excuse for inaction.

[Al R]

<<Wearing a bandana and combat trousers he is the spitting image of Sylvester Stallone's character in the popular films. He said: "I've always worn something on my head, usually a cap, but I started wearing a bandana too. In the films Rambo wears a red one but mine's camouflage green. They're similar enough though. "I wear combat trousers quite a lot, so I look just like him. John does not just keep up appearances with his love of everything 'Rambo'.

The charity worker helps teach outdoor survival tactics at his local Air Training Corps. He said: "I really am the real-life Rambo. Generally people think twice about what they say to me. Nobody messes with me. Sometimes people don't believe I'm serious at first. They just think it's quite amusing. Then they realise the truth." He has honed the same skills as his icon, making himself an expert on aircraft, weaponry and survival. He said: "I'm really into aircraft and weaponry, I've been into it for a long time. I am the chairman of the civilian committee for the 1073 Skegness Squadron Air Training Corps so that is right along the line of my interests.">>

Yup. Splitting image. And who allowed him to work with kids?? :eek:

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_03/rambo2CATERS_468x330.jpg

[roony]

I like how his signature is in block caps, and he claims he could survive in the woods.

bbc,

How did you find this on google? I think it maybe playing up a bit at the moment 'cos when I search for a reference to my upcoming moon trip it comes up with bugger all....

...hang on, Jonathan Ross is on the other line...

[airborne_artist]

I like how his signature is in block caps

And you can bet he had a ruler underneath that when he signed it :E

[RETDPI]

Duikers, Boks, Bucks, Deer and Gazelles
Porpoises and Dolphins,
Crocodiles, Alligators and Caymans,
Turtles, Tortoises and Terrapins
Lobsters, Crayfish, Langustines, Prawns and Shrimps
Tum te Tum..............:)

[Tigs2]

Mr Burns
What a dreadful judge of character you are. Firstly there are far too many skeletons in my cupboard to be a magistrate, and if i was I would be Judge Pickles reincarnate. I have never been nor will be a liberal. My original point for which you have personally slagged me off still stands, i do not believe the chap concerned deserved a jail sentance. Does that opinion deserve your vitriol?

[Tigs2]

BigBlue

Sorry I don't understand:confused: Is Mr Rambo Sharpy?? If so how do you know?

[RETDPI]

Ducks and Geese,
Dugongs and Manatees,
Herons and Egrets,
Foxes and Jackals,
Mice and Rats,
Yawn.................:zzz:

[GPMG]

Crikey, what a complete c*ck that Rambo bloke is. If I was the CO at that unit I wouldn't let him anywhere near my cadets.

When I was in the Air Cadets you used to meet the odd CI who was more interested in impressing and wowing the cadets than teaching and coaching them.

I have pondered becoming a CI at times but I'm not sure about the whole set up. I would like to give something back for the 4 very enjoyable years I spent as a space cadet though.

Maybe I could change my name to famous film soldier, would need to be a good one though......Peter Skellen?

[exscribbler]

Quote: He wouldn't be too hard to defeat....just deprive him of his Insulin. Link here (http://www.longhurst-group.org.uk/longhurst_homes/downloads/lha_newsletter_mar06.pdf) and scroll down to his letter on page 5. He appears to do genuine good charity work, so why comprimise it by behaving like a Walt of the first degree?

According to which he's disabled. No antelope, then...:E

[goosegander]

For everyone who has paid an interest in this post!!....

Mr_Burns... your are a legend! well in my opinion anyway.

The Facts.... this guy forged documents......
withheld ammunition...in excess of 100 rounds i might add. not 1 box as the papers and Sky said. unless it was a full metal ammo box....
and put a lot of lives at risk...........

Having been on the Front line, this is not acceptable in my book, even more so from an Officer.....
had this been Joe Bloggs airman, then im sure he would have gotten more than 3 months....less good behaviour!!!!

my personal concern is that, as said before, senior officers and peers alike, never addressed the badge wearing issue, and might i add, the instructors on the Alleged courses never did, oh what courses?
in my day, the best lowliest, "rock" in the GDT section was hot on these things.... so why no one else.!!!!

If this guy was as keen to go to Iraq, and keen for military life as he and everyone else who supports him has made out, then why did he NOT attend these courses??? i was a top cabbage and could not get enough..., i did every course i could, much to my wife's dismay!

The main thing is, why would any soul on this earth, want to go to a WAR zone, and not have the proper training!!!!! i know of many a guy, who hated and slated their training, but when in theatre, were so thankful for it.

I was never an armourer, or a fan of their's, however, i doubt for 1 second, knowing their normal attitudes, that any single one of them, would ever deny taking ammo from anyone regardless of it's origin. Hmmmm... did he want to keep it, cause my best guess says he probably did not ever declare it!!!

As for his sentence, well, as said he went to civvy nick, good.
He has disgraced himself, his family and the nature of being a member of the Forces , let alone officer corps, at the end of the day, if he wanted the wings / dagger he should have done the right thing, not pretended, and maybe, just maybe, people might have helped him more,....

Last point, what caused the MoD to suspect him in the first place??????????

[Whenurhappy]

Goosegander


I cannot agree with you more - your post is spot on. If he was so keen, why not do the courses? And there was a failure of leadership...

Although I did experience returning US-sourced rounds to an EAW armourer in Theatre - lots of 'where do you get these from, eh?' I alluded to a combat replen... rather than admitting that we had a bit of a blat down-range (do I now qualify as a Walt, then?)

WP

[Prop-Ed]

"Last point, what caused the MoD to suspect him in the first place??????????"


I think when he started arriving at work dressed like Corporal Klinger from M*A*S*H........:eek:

[Back in the Barrel]

If anyone is in any doubt about the seriousness with which the wearing of military badges should be taken, take time to read the obituary of Pearl Witherington, an outstanding WAAF officer who served with absolute distinction as an SOE operator during the Second World War. It took her until 2006 before she was eventually awarded the parachute wings which she had earned over 60 years previously. Here's the quote:

In 2004 she was advanced to CBE, the insignia being presented to her in Paris by the Queen during a state visit to France.

One official acknowledgement still eluded her - the award of her parachute wings (which she regarded as more important than her appointments in the Order of the British Empire). This was eventually rectified after an RAF parachute instructor went to interview her at her home in France about her wartime experiences, and in 2006 she was presented with the coveted wings.

You will also note (if you read the obituary at the link below) that she also returned her MBE (Civil Division) with a note stating that she had done nothing remotely 'civil' to earn it!

Respect!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article3432757.ece

[snapper41]

And then of course, there was this incident:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9D05EFDB1339F93BA25756C0A960958260

[Tigs2]

Thats a very sad story Snapper. :(

[Jumping_Jack]

...and a cowards way out......I feel for his wife & family, not him. :(

[Kitbag]

...and a cowards way out......I feel for his wife & family, not him. :(


Possibly one of the most stupid comments ever posted on Pprune. Shame on you

[Sempre 206]

As a sad postcript to a sad tale, it later transpired that the USN regulations were less than clear on requirements for the medal - to such a degree that it is possible that the Adm did qualify.

[Kitbag]

W2, nope, don't think so. Jumping Jack, I am sure, is big enough to defend his own comment.

[Jumping_Jack]

I feel no need to defend my post, suicide in these types of circumstances merely leaves the family to cope with the potential shame and ignomony. As I said, my sympathy is with the devastated family left behind....

[Strictly Jungly]

Jumping Jack,
I honestly cannot see how in that case it was a "cowards way" out. More like someone who has reached a point where he feels he cannot go on any longer.


I am certain the family will be more concerned with other current emotions than your claims of "potential shame and ignomony".

We will never know what was going on in that individuals mind that led to him take his own life.

Personally, I think your comments are of a "throwaway" nature merely prompting a response.

I am in agreement with Kitbag............your comments are not only stupid but tasteless to boot.

SJ

[rmac]

BigBlueCar

I actually find Rambos web a little sad. I doesn't look like he is doing any harm, and is at least trying to be useful unlike many of the wank*rs out there stabbing people for jumping the queue in Tesco.

A very wise person once told me that we all live in our own bubbles, and unless it is absolutely necessary the most unkind thing that one can do is burst someones bubble. Live and let live, don't pour scorn on someone because they were dealt a sh1t hand and are doing their best to live with it. There but for the grace of god and all that......

[Thelma Viaduct]

His life could be far far worse, he could be a sad individual on a forum debating other peoples lives and how they live them for instance.

Look at the positives:

He has a rather splendid SAS tache and lets not forget the 21st century is all about appearance rather than substance, so things aren't all bad for him.
His mag wheels look quite smart too.

Job Jobbed :ok::cool:

[glad rag]

Quote

"Jumping Jack,
I honestly cannot see how in that case it was a "cowards way" out. More like someone who has reached a point where he feels he cannot go on any longer.


I am certain the family will be more concerned with other current emotions than your claims of "potential shame and ignomony".

We will never know what was going on in that individuals mind that led to him take his own life.

Personally, I think your comments are of a "throwaway" nature merely prompting a response.

I am in agreement with Kitbag............your comments are not only stupid but tasteless to boot."



+1.

GR.

[Stupidbutsaveable]

Jumping Jack

Fingers crossed you never find yourself in a position where it even crosses your mind to take 'the coward's way out'. If you ever really screw up big time you might understand, become less judgemental and show a bit more compassion.

Regards

Stupid

[sonicstomp]

What is even sadder is what you see when you click the friends tab on his webpage -

In fact the only thing sadder is someone who has nothing better to do than post said observation on this forum

:-)

[Jumping_Jack]

....whatever.....:rolleyes:

[Shaft109]

Have a read of his blog. Especially the very last bit.

I've known a few people to big themselves up for various reasons. Like being trained in unarmed combat in the OTC at Uni:cool:

But the people who really can do (or have done something truly remarkable) are very reserved / quiet about it.

[Back in the Barrel]

Walting really is en vogue at the moment:

I love the sub-heading "English Fruitcake"!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7274743.stm

[Whenurhappy]

PPrune Passim reported extensively on Mr Eke, an ATC officer who stole money and uttered documents to obtain an MBE by deception. Herewith his wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Eke

A sad, dangerous and deceitful sh!t.

[plebby 1st tourist]

Er, I think by ATC he means Air Training Corps, rather than one of the RAF's finest Airspace managers..................

[SpotterFC]

ATC = Airspace Manager?

Only in their dreams...

Standing by for incoming:cool:

[Once A Brat]

I realise this is thread creep but.....

Regardless of whether Air Traffic Officers are Airspace Managers or not........Whenurhappy was totally correct about 'Mr' Eke. Having gone to school with him he is and has been for a long time A sad, dangerous and deceitful sh!t.

However, this is not.....

I am surprised about the laisse faire attitude of some earlier posts, sure 'Sharpey' may have been a nice guy and sure he may been harshly treated for just "falsifying some quals" and wearing badges that he wasn't entitled to (although I'm sure if it was a flying brevet he was wearing, he'd have been told to lose it very quickly). I doubt even that his detachment would have put many at risk since as non-rock I suspect that he'd have been fairly well back from the front line. WHAT he is a complete a*se for doing is keeping ammunition in his private residence where any Tom, Dick or Harry could broken in, stolen and gone on a Ryan-sque rampage - there are no mitigating factors for this and no excuses. Any armourer or DArmO would have taken the ammunition had he actually asked. He has gotten all that he deserves!!!!


Once a brat, always a brat................Trenchard's finest