Starting a helicopter Aoc

[notar]

Hi Guys & Girls,
Thinking of getting a rotary Aoc started at our UK flying school and understand that there are aviation consultants that can help with Ops manuals etc. :ugh:
Can anyone point me in the right direction please.
Thanks

[TiPwEiGhT]

We got our manuals done by a consulatancy in Scotland... they were horrific to put it bluntly. We were forever coming across other operators names and information throughout it. Can't remember the name of them but I am sure it'll come to me at 3am...

You can save yourself alot of money and write your own manual. Takes alot of time though.

TiP:ugh:

[Bravo73]

Talk to paco.

I understand that this is one of the services offered by his new company (along side ATPL/CPL groundschool.)

[paco]

Yup - check yer PMs.

New service? I did East Midlands' one when they set up all that time ago!

Phil

[Bravo73]

Old service, 'new' company though, eh Phil? ;)

[nigelh]

why you would want to put yourself through all that grief just so some caa suit can come and find something at fault ( ie your fire drill not being signed in triplicate etc)is beyond me :confused: I believe a helicopter company can do a lot better without an aoc by keeping overheads down , therefore keeping prices down . There is always more than one way of skinning a cat AND keeping legal . Having an aoc now puts you at a huge disadvantage to all the other guys out there doing leases quite happily and legally . And yes , i do have it in writing from the caa before you start tutting and making out that it is a "grey area " and yes , my insurance company are also quite happy thankyou :ok: Less and less is now being done by aoc,s and i now know of many WITH aoc,s who chose to conduct more and more flights as Private due to the idiotic workings of the caa.....:ugh::ugh:
How about a thread on the daftest things people have had to do to keep within the caa laws ...
1) How about having to fill in details of all hours flown , incl private, for the whole year just because you have done 1 flight for an aoc ?!!:rolleyes:

[VeeAny]

Some people are just good at writing these things.

Phil is one of those people.

I had a brief look at an ops manual he had written, at his CRM course in January, best checklist layout I've seen probably ever.

If I were setting up an AOC today I'd use Phil.

GS

[JimBall]

Before going down a very expensive route, take a look at the latest version of the CAA's charges for AOC operators. Essentially, unless you are thinking of more than 4 machines, it just isn't worth it. By 09 the CAA wil be asking for so much money that there will be no way that a small or restricted AOC can compete with the nigelh leasing world.

Now - this might change. Particularly in the light of the CAA Review being conducted by the DfT. And there does appear to be some sympathy at the CAA for the plight of small operators.

However, with the ending of cross-subsidy from larger AOC companies, the refusal of the CAA to go forward with a "per seat" tax on passengers and the stupidity of a Govt which demands that air regulation is not only self-funded but also gives a 6% return on capital employed........you guessed it.......there's more hope that Kerry Katona will keep her gob shut for a week.

Meanwhile, go to any major sporting event this year and watch the heli operations. See how many are not AOC-based - and log the number of non-line checked pilots working for cash on their days off from taxpayer-funded flying.

Then join the club.

[nigelh]

JimBall you are spot on. Most of the helis at silverstone, cheltenham etc are NOT aoc There is no point in trying to p*ss into the wind . The caa are out to kill you guys off so why pay them :rolleyes: It is impossible for a small operator to keep his costs down with all the irrelevant paperwork needed these days. The shame is that if they came up with a half decent and fair method i would probably join in :ok: Until then the lease boys will grow stronger and i believe the aoc,s , other than the big ones doing corporate work, will just die slowly. At the end of the day a lot of the private flights are done in the same machines and the same pilots as public Transport so i really dont see it as a safety issue and after all it has been going on big time for donkeys years without any complaints.:ok:
See you at silverstone :ok::ok:

[nigelh]

Phil. maybe you could start advising people wishing to do lease work as well if my private mail is anything to go by !!! Please NO more emails regarding this ...i do not want to be responsible for giving any advice as i am not qualified !!! All i can say is read the rules ....create a lease agreement and leave the rest to the operator ( the guy leasing ) it is up to him to supply pilot etc as you are NOT offering a service. This is just like hiring a car and then getting a driver , it does not make you a taxi.:=
This is from an email written by a very experienced ex army cpl coming to terms with life within caa land ....he,s just been told he has to log every hour for the caa re duty hours when he has only done 2 jobs all year !!!
Very funny:D
I have flown about 350 hours over the year, about 5 of which have been on charter. Going back over my log book will take forever and given everything it does seem ridiculous that I have to fill in a tech log which records flying hours and who is doing it, then a personal flying log book and then another spread sheet just to log the same piece of information and all when we are supposed to live in the age of computers. In the world outside bureaucracy this is called triple keying and is not acceptable or is at the very least being eradicated in most businesses because it is inefficient. I know this is how it is but there must be a more efficient way of doing all this don’t you think given that computers can do most of this now? Let invent something and sell it to the CAA for millions?



Could I not copy my log book on this occasion and send you that so that they can work it out for themselves or is the spread sheet the only way? I assume you only have to keep a record of my hours and the CAA don’t actually tell you that you have to use excel do they?



I am of course very happy to start triple keying from now on - now that I know what is required.



So that there are no surprises, the whole requirement for this AOC flying is:



I have to spend a day jumping in and out of big tank in Middlesborough every ….. months;

I have to spend a day putting out fires and resuscitating dummies every …. months;

I have to spend a day listening to someone chatting about how to manage my non existent flight crew every….. months

I have to be prodded and poked by the quack every 6 months;

I have to fly with an examiner on an LPC every 6/12 months?

I have to fly with an examiner on an OPC every 6/12 months?



…….and in return I get to fly 5 hours for reward on the AOC. All makes perfect sense I don’t know why more people don’t do it.



Not that I am a cynic.



I will of course oblige and conform as required. If the spread sheet is the only way then let me know.

[Hughes500]

Nigel

Just out of interest I leased out one of my helicopters to go to a small island ( somewhere between wales and england). The customer hired his own pilot, so I am not providing a service ! However a certain heli company dobbed in to the caa. Who phoned me on holiday and threatened to have me arrested. They then told the pilot that he was the operator and although what he was doing was no strictly against the law ( there words) they were going to arrest him and have a bun fight ( there words ) to try to get the law changed by precedent in a court as they didnt like what was going on !
I would liked to have taken this futher but Mrs 500 told me to relax, tell them where to get off and to get back on my surf board. Thinking about it I would earn more money with a lot less hassle becoming a surfing instructor, now theres a thought.
Happy flying see you at Silverstone or maybe not as i cant be bothered to go to the pilots briefing let alone the drama of flying a leased helicopter (As355) and exercising the priviliges of my licence !

[manfromuncle]

Can someone explain how this "leasing" thing works so you don't need an AOC?

[nigelh]

someone at the caa is bull****ing you !! If they could make a case they would have done many years ago . The fact that they have known about the leasing of aircraft for the last 20+ years would make it impossible for them to suddenly jump up and try to stop it . People have proved over all these years that it is a)safe and b) legal and not to mention that suddenly it would effectively be P.Transport to hire a plane for hour building , all club flying would then also be P.T. and what if your heli was in for service does that mean you cannot hire one and fly it yourself???what if you are ill and feel unsafe to fly or the weather becomes poor and you get a pilot to fly you home , would that be P.T?? No, how could it be ? If the aircraft is then NOT on anyones aoc it cannot be flown back by anyone !!!! The fact is that you have to have a lease agreement ,make sure the customer understands the difference between a P.T flight and a lease, the and that is the sum of your involvement . You do not supply and pay the pilot because then you are making a service and then it is P.T. Having said that if joe bloggs just phoned up wanting a ride from a to b i would do it as an aoc charter . Lease work is done mostly on a bundle of hours . In my correspondence with the caa they reiterated that my only responsibility was the heli maintained to P.T cat and the responsibility for the flight being done within rules was with the operator.

[firebird_uk]

Forgive my ignorance regarding how an AOC works, but would the 'to-do list' below summerise what -theoretically- needs to be done to work without an AOC.

Mr X is a CPL(H) and owns a helicopter that is maintained to PT specs.

Mr X sets up two companies, A & B and is a director of both.

Company A leases the helicopter to customers.

Company B provides flight crew.

Mr X is approached by a businessman who wishes to be flown to various meetings. A lease is signed for use of the helicopter with company A. The businessman is billed for crew services by company B.

Mr X both signs the lease on behalf company A and is the flight crew supplied by company B.

Everyone's happy (unless you're an operator that pays the AOC charges to the CAA).

[nigelh]

That flight would be illegal and the caa would be all over you...dont do it :eek:

[manfromuncle]

Errrr, can someone explain this leasing 'loophole'?!

[JimBall]

Manfromuncle: Read the ANO. Read JAR OPS-3.There's no "loophole". The facts are that the rules on Public Transport were only ever designed to protect fare-paying passengers and cargo on commercial flights.

If a chap decides to lease a helicopter from one company, hire a pilot and invite mates along for a flight it is not illegal.

The term "valuable consideration" gets waved around. If "VC" is given for a flight it might be construed (by some) to be CAT. But if you lease a helicopter and pay the running costs you are essentially running a private flight. Unless you charge VC to any of the passengers.

And that's where the black & white becomes grey. For some.

Take, for instance, a large industrial conglomerate who have a fleet of helicopters and fixed wings which are run by them privately. No AOC. They use these machines to fly around their customers. And then their customers place large orders which make a profit for the company. Is that VC ?? Surely you could prove that the customer has paid for the flight if they've ordered goods from the flight provider. You could certainly try to prove that the flight produced revenue for the company.

Now, the company may or may not own the aircraft. It could lease them from an owner. Still doesn't change the category of the flight - it's still private.

And f the company has been operating in this fashion for over 30 years with no CAA challenge - and even been issued an ICAO telephony designator which should only be issued to AOC holders - you have to wonder.

In the UK we exist in a regulatory vacuum caught between the UK ANO and JAR OPS-3. If you want an AOC you have to comply with the bits of JAR OPS-3 that the CAA have recognised. There's an awful lot of JAR OPS-3 which we are not allowed to use. Until this impasse is resolved, until we have total recognition of JAR OPS-3, there will be some grey CAT/Private areas.