After 49 years, he calls it quits. I wonder if he's dead actually.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23229795

There was a great line on the radio this morning from some punter:

Cuba. Good healthcare, great music, lovely people. No Americans. I love the place...!

Beatriz, you must havenoticed that we have quite a few fellow PPRuNers here on Jetblast who are American?
I know that our residents Americans would be the first to grant you Freedom of Speech what with Magna Carta and the First Ammendment yada yada yada, but why post something like what you did?

Aviation is not solely British endeavour. :eek:
PPRuNe is not an all British Bulletin Board. :confused:

I sometimes wonder if that fact escapes some people here.

Aviation is not solely British endeavour.
In fact those American upstarts invented it...;)

Juud give it a rest , before entering JB you will read : Stay out if you are faint hearted and always blame the Americans

TRY2FLY you are perhaps not familiar with the concept of irony?

irony:
the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.

Now please correlate the above information with the JB forum blurb and see how you get on?

Not so Mr Hughes twer those Kiwis.:E

This has certainly gotten the track quickly......once again the Americans are to blame for everything and welcome nowhere until...............the poop hits the impeller..............then its, "where the hell have you been............

I believe Rudyard Kipling did a poem on similar theme

GF

Ah Juud, lighten up.

I was merely pointing out what some bloke said on the radio.

And if you can't do that here, where can you do it?

Beatriz, please don't take this too personal mate. Your post just happened to be the straw... :)
Please do not take the rest of this post as aimed at you.

This board is primarily for people who fly for a living. And flying for a living by and large takes you to foreign countries. You slip in foreign ports, you interact with foreign people, eat foreign food and breathe foreign air.
For many of us that leads to a broadening of our views, a greater tolerance for 'foreigness' and a lessening of our the inate human distrust of all things foreign.

Which is why it actually distresses me (I know, I know; need to lighten up ;) ) to see the continuous 'Yank baiting' that goes on here on JB.
There's a lot mutual good humoured dissing which is fun.
There is also a lot of gratuitous, insular not-thought-through slinging of mud at Americans, French, Muslims, Jews and everything else which isn't White British Middle Class.

Which I personally find stupid, boring and completely out of place on an international forum.
But that's just me. :ouch:

PS: Our resident Americans will be the first to tell you that I am a Liberal Huggy Fluffist Treehugger of the first order who disagrees with most of their politics, but that's neither here nor there in this case. :8

And that - Juud - is what gets most of our goats - politics and politicians!

Perhaps that what Castro got right - do away with the lot of them.

What he got wrong was trying to quell the human spirit, thirst for knowledge and the need to interact which you so accurately describe.

Yes - have been to Cuba

Loved -

Well behaved and educated kids and population overall
1950s american iron
Steam trains in former sugar plantations
Faded Hispanic and French Colonial architecture and lush scenery
Health Service producing a long life expectation and a more than healthy population
Redirecting of the economy towards Tourism, Citrus etc - aimed towards South America, Canada and Europe

Hated

Refusal to allow international contact, the Internet etc
Banning of individual enterprise
Abysmal standard of living
Poor variety of food - yet see health above

Appalled by

US Establishment view of Cuba as an enemy at the door. It hasn't got the funding or the resources - but the hate campaign goes on - Can you blame the Cubans for looking in another direction?

And the Cayos - the North Shore vacation resorts - what a great way of earning currency, but as much to do with Cuba as Big Ben has in common with New York!

I just hope for a soft landing - and keep the slavering Florida bandits out

There was some silly cow on Radio 2 at lunchtime saying that she has been to Cubans and they don't want things like mobilephones, you can get American goods (CNN, coke, etc), the people are happy living on nothing.

Not the same Cuba I've been too then.

The people do want consumer durables but can't get them because they don't have the money and when they do have the money they are buying potatos for $5 a pair! I kid you not.

The hotels get CNN, etc, but the general population doesn't. I know this because our chambermaid where we stayed always watched American TV and explained all this to us. If the governement knew she was watching it then it was a jail term.

It really is a beautiful, beautiful country.

And flying for a living by and large takes you to foreign countries. You slip in foreign ports, you interact with foreign people, eat foreign food and breathe foreign air.

For many of us that leads to a broadening of our views, a greater tolerance for 'foreigness' and a lessening of our the inate human distrust of all things foreign.

Personally I reckon there aint nuthin like travel to narrow the mind.

Chimbu me lad, that's just cuz yer an Ozzer; insular to the power of 10 ;)

Thank you for your support but when it comes to the dazed and confused admirers of El Lider Maximo (rtd) I don't think you need be unduly concerned for the U.S.A.

We get such gems as the deep thinkers suggesting how much better off the Cubans are for not having to endure the rich Western diet, be confused by having a choice of leaders to vote for, and on and on. Such concern for them must go deeply appreciated! One can only hope, post-socialism, that those who go to Havana to boast of their admiration for Fidel and the Revolution still find themselves welcome.

We used to hear similar from boosters of East Germany right up until it collapsed, when there was simply dignified silence from the once mouthy trendy-lefties. Well, much of that might have been discovering that the East Germans were not just armed to the teeth but kept very, very busy spying on each other, with wives turning in husbands, kids ratting on their parents, border guards given secret orders to shoot fleeing women and children... the whole sick spectrum of "building socialism." You have to be very sophisticated to see the good in that, when most people simply have not got that far!

I expect similar stories to come out of Cuba once the lid blows off but in the meantime we have to read the usual tripe from those who still find Fidel and his creaky edifice attractive. So be it. Of course there is a double standard in place, with the U.S.A. always taken to be bad in some way or the other.

Well, it might be that we ARE bad in much of what we do, but at least we are out there trying, where many Yank-bashers are simply trying, sad, carping little souls. Why do I get the idea that if they had much gumption they would not find themselves sat there in the pissing British rain moaning about those terrible Yanks?

If it has come to needing to go to "the D.D.R. with palm trees" (not my description but the one given by a German friend who has been there) to have a break from sharing your space with my countrymen then I can only advise you to make haste, make haste! Fidel is going and we are coming! After that you will be reduced to visiting Pyongyang, until North Korea crumbles in turn.

When I get to Havana, if I see bright red White folks with terrible teeth wearing knotted hankies and shabby "Spice Girls World Tour 2008" t-shirts, stinking slightly of cheap drink, I shall take due care not to annoy them unduly. Call that one Yank's contribution to world peace and understanding.

This board is primarily for people who fly for a living. And flying for a living by and large takes you to foreign countries. You slip in foreign ports, you interact with foreign people, eat foreign food and breathe foreign air.
For many of us that leads to a broadening of our views, a greater tolerance for 'foreigness' and a lessening of our the inate human distrust of all things foreign.

Juud...you don't have to fly anywhere to experience what you describe. Take a walk down any High Street on a Saturday and you'll mix with more foreigners than locals. Pop into any MacDonalds for a coffee, basic English sparse, go into any large department store, same thing.

US President George W Bush has called on Cuba to prepare for free elections after Fidel Castro's announcement that he is retiring on health grounds.
The US state department has said its embargo on Cuba remains in place. It would probably not be lifted "any time soon", one senior official said.
Speaking on a tour of Africa, Mr Bush said he regarded Mr Castro's departure as "a period of transition, and it should be the beginning of the democratic transition in Cuba". The US, he added, was ready to help the "people of Cuba realise the blessings of liberty".
In the UK, Prime Minister Gordon Brown's spokesman said Mr Castro's departure opened the way for a peaceful transition to a pluralist democracy.

GCPTN

No, they`re not serious it`ll only be right if it`s the kind of democracy of which they approve.

I wonder if lifting the (US) embargo wouldn't hasten the change?
Since the Cuban missile crisis when JFK faced-down the Russians, I cannot see that Cuba has been any threat to the USA. If they want to choose their own 'democracy' and allow a (benign) dictator rule their lives, who are we to interfere?

G-CPTN-
Ye might feel differently if it were say... Ireland, and some bearded Celtic git in olive drab would have spent the last 40 years or so periodically shoving his mental hospital sweepings, convicts, and other domestic problems into the Irish Sea for them to turn up on your shores all the while inflaming say, France, Iberia, and the Scowegians with non-stop rhetoric about your evil-doing. Oh, and grooming his little brother (Mini-me) to take over later.
If you had the N. Koreans (say) decide to put some missile bases in oh, Limerick... and you had a large domestic set of former bogtrotters in say... Liverpool (oh, but you do... scratch that...) who have a great deal of political clout (and are, not incidentally, largely Republican... and as falls Miami, so too, generally falls Florida, politically...). Well, these are factors that are difficult to ignore... along with the Monroe Doctrine (which, while perhaps outdated, is still part of U.S. foreign policy), interpret it as you will (as many do).

U.S. President John F. Kennedy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy) at an August 29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_29), 1962 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962) news conference:
“ The Monroe Doctrine means what it has meant since President Monroe and John Quincy Adams enunciated it, and that is that we would oppose a foreign power extending its power to the Western Hemisphere, and that is why we oppose what is happening in Cuba today. That is why we have cut off our trade. That is why we worked in the Organization of American States and in other ways to isolate the Communist menace in Cuba. That is why we will continue to give a good deal of our effort and attention to it. ”

Not saying your theory regarding the embargo is incorrect (often wondered that m'self)... but it's a situation that you don't have... that's all I'm saying. Not trying to elicit an argument, but U.S. foreign policy in the Americas is different than it is other places... it simply is.

Oh, look at the time... it's probably about the hour for the usual suspects to weigh in on American evil-doing and what a worker's paradise Cuba and Venezuela are (ho-hum... to quote John Kennedy Toole), but I think until one has worked for several years in and around those waters and read intelligence summaries (none lately, but my reliable and more current sources indicate not much has changed) and have seen up close and personal (as I have) thousands of Cuban and Haitian migrants bobbing around in the Florida Straits on everything from interior doors to innertubes to automobiles... one isn't in a position to make a particularly informed judgment about Cuba nor the region. If things are so hunky-dory among the socialist nations of the Caribbean, one would have to wonder why Venezuela and Cuba (the Siamese twins of Latin American socialism... Bolivia is something else entirely...) are among the countries with the biggest economic problems, the emptiest shops, the biggest brain drains, the most restrictive press, and various other symptoms indicative of countries in trouble. I don't recall picking up too many migrants heading INTO Cuba... but maybe I was just being selective... that's probably it.:ugh:

I have the greatest respect for the bravery (and diplomacy) that JFK demonstrated in October 1962 (and yes, I remember it - though wasn't aware of the events as they unfolded) in facing-down Khrushchev (and Castro). We (yes, it would have involved us too) came so close to nuclear war:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis

But that was forty-five years ago, and I can't help but think that (now that the Soviet Union has collapsed) the feud has been worn out, and the US should just allow market forces to undermine Cuba. The immigration therefrom could hardly be worse than from Mexico (whilst that is no justification of course). In return, American industry (in particular the auto makers) would benefit (assuming that Castro capitulated and allowed imports - but perhaps the Cubans would agitate until he did).
Of course I'm not familiar with the innuendos of Cuban economics (I heard only today that Cubans are limited to an income of the equivalent of 300 dollars per month - though not US transferable dollars).
I did, however, spend time in the DDR immediately after the 'wall' came down (when Östmarks were still the currency) and the contrasts between East and West were 'obscene' (most noticeable when returning across the Hartz mountains from rural DDR to the resorts of West Germany - and the three-hour paddle-steamer trip along the Elbe from Pirna to (almost) Czechoslovakia that cost 10 Östmarks and the ferry across the Elbe (there was no bridge since the War) which cost 2 Östpfennigs - with at least 10 Östmarks to the Deutschmark!) and talked with many 'stunned' East Germans who had (as yet) little concept of life outside the DDR. I imagine that similar contrasts exist between Cuba and the USA.

(I heard only today that Cubans are limited to an income of the equivalent of 300 dollars per month - though not US transferable dollars).


Average Cuban income is $19.00 USD a month. Which means that the average Cuban cannot afford to buy a beer in the tourist hotels on the north shore.

Some of the posters here really, but really would have profited from a visit to the D.D.R., I think. Remember that wonder (in its way) House of Socialism within sight of Checkpoint Charlie? Stuffed full of lies from top to bottom, basically, meant to prove that the wall was a protective barrier to keep out the bandits from the West, not to keep in those trying to flee the East.

It really matters very little to me the sort of tired nattering about the U.S.A. and how we are bullying poor little Cuba. That might even be basically correct by now! You have people stuck in some phase of their youth, viewing Fidel, Che and the rest as glamourous revolutionaries sticking two fingers up to us. Get real; that was almost 50 years ago!

I was just reading up on Cuba today. They have managed to run a real-time simulation of what the rest of us shall experience once we run our planet out of oil. Could a capitalist society manage this trick? Good question, I think.

I look forward very much to seeing Cuba move beyond rule by the Castro brothers. I expect that some of you might have to eat some of your words then. I might have to as well, but never mind that.

Certainly the noodle who thinks Cubans are better off living in the manner of people around 100 years ago, free of so much we take for granted, is in for a nasty shock, I think. Not that we all should drive around in SUVs but being stuck down on the farm unless you can borrow a bicycle or hitch a ride crammed into a trailer full of 99 others is not something most folks would find fulfilling.

Average Cuban now earns $30 per month, electricity, water, telephone (if available) and rent take up a few cents of that.

Each and every Cuban receives a monthly handout of 20lbs of rice 10 lbs of beans and 2 lbs of chicken. (some are sufficiently well of not to even bother claiming it) Second last time I was there every mother was recieving a gift of an excellent, durable, well made electric rice cooker as a token gift due the fact the economy was on the up.

Those working in the rapidly expanding tourism industry, receive a monthly profit share based on targets being met. Figures vary from $30 - $80 per month.

Mobile phones are readily available for purchased and can be used freely for international calls. Internet access is available.

Free transport is available from town to town using the brilliant system of organised and obligitary hitch-hiking, regulated by the little yellow uniformed controllers at the edge of each town. If you are supplied with a government vehicle you are obliged to share space.

I have picked up loads of Cuban hitch hikers in my hire cars.

Free enterprise can be seen everywhere, vendors on the streets, private taxis, crafts people in markets, Casas Particulares where the best food is to be found..

The people here who criticise Cuba without having been there are either fools, politically motivated or feel frightened and threatened .

Cuba is changing and bears no resemblance to the old DDR. That is an old worn out myth trotted out by the usual suspects :ok:

They are like spoiled children "I have never tried it, I just know that I will hate it " Brainwashed to a degree :ugh:

As a visitor I don't suppose you have experienced that midnight knock on the door but it definitely occurs and that seems to be something that certainly evokes the D.D.R. Oh, yes indeedy!

I was just listening to a news report about some college kid in Cuba who recently made a few unguarded comments about the current state of affairs there. Next thing, he disappeared! Next thing after that he reappeared singing a different tune, some variation on "Viva Fidel". We shall just have to guess what happened to him because no one is talking. My guess it that whatever it was it was extremely unpleasant but then I would think that, wouldn't I?

I think there is ample evidence that the Cuban State has put many, many layers of control in place, starting with each block having someone whose job it is to observe and report about exactly what is going on.

El Grifo, and some of the rest of you too, just because there are many positive aspects to Cuba that may refute our simple-minded views, we ignorant Yanks, do not let that lead you into unwarranted enthusiasm for everything that happens on that unfortunate island.

Do not take my word for it; just check out the details of some of the history of the island, such as how Fidel fought a peasant rebellion and how he dealt with honest dissent from some of his former comrades-in-arms.

Don't let your upset with our simple-minded approach to Cuba lead you into one that is even more simple-minded on your own part!

Personally, I don't give a damn about rum, cigars, music, palm trees and blue water. Happy peasants in rags... who are we kidding here? You know they used to claim it was all happy bare-foot darkies jus' beatin' they feets on dat Mississippi mud until all the facts came out. Want to bet it shall be something similar for Cuba?

Yes, I know... he's a gringo with an agenda... aren't we all? Surely chuks and I are. Not entirely sure of the age of this article, but it would seem to indicate that con-pilot's figures are more accurate than most of those stated in this thread (and even his appear generous)
http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oagjr002.php
El Grifo, you may have been to Cuba, but I should imagine you haven't 'seen' Cuba... they're fairly careful to make good and sure you don't. There is a thriving black market for non-Cuban currencies, specifically the evil greenback. Those among us who have been to Cuba and have made observations which don't square with yours... are we too fools, politically motivated, or frightened and threatened? I used to own a house in Pequeña Habana (which is in Miami, for the uninitiated). Would walk to Calle Ocho, Versailles, the various shops and markets.
I lived among Cubans for the best part of a very enjoyable 4 years, some of the most pleasant, honest, decent, and hardheaded people I've struck in a disordered life... heard a lot of nonsense and a lot of sense from my neighbors... for the most part, I think over that period of time I began to be able to tell the difference.
The parallel dollar/peso economies in Cuba, the economic freedom ranking of 150 out of 157 and the stunning inability of the country to manage its sugar harvests (Cuba is now a net importer) probably result in the enormous annual exports which are valued at less than $3B per annum (nearly half of which are traded with Canada and the Netherlands... not our friend Hugo and his ilk... who is a very minor trading partner with Cuba). Net imports to Cuba are valued at more than triple her exports. By comparison, the United States, a country which (rightly) is considered to be hugely irresponsible in developing a trade deficit, imports under double her exports. The GDP of Cuba per capita is about 8% that of the U.S. and wages do not even remotely reflect even that paltry GDP. Poverty line figures aren't even reported in Cuba. One of the major exports from Cuba is labor, which is billed at several times the pay rate for those laborers... I could go on, but those who believe that Cuba is on a sound economic footing are living in a dream world. Cuba DOES have a well-educated base (which will be what drags that country out of the dark ages) and well-trained physicians and some other professionals (though they continue to emigrate when they can, legally or otherwise), but there's no infrastructure worth anything and these intelligent and motivated people can't thrive under this economy and are frustrated at every turn by incompetent and corrupt government intervention and insane economic policy. Anyone who claims otherwise simply because they've "been there" is working from insufficient facts.

Brick wall, head, beating.

Dyed in the wool thinking.

None so blind as those who will not see.

Could be applied equally to both sides we hear the man say.

Time, as always, will tell.

Over and out.:ok:

you don't have to fly anywhere to experience what you describe. Take a walk down any High Street on a Saturday and you'll mix with more foreigners than locals. Pop into any MacDonalds for a coffee, basic English sparse, go into any large department store, same thing.

Same goes for Frankfort, Paris, New York, or San Francisco. We (aviation) have facilitated the migration of the many and spread them around the world. Many of the worlds cities have ethnic enclaves, complete with street signs and store fronts in their native language.

Social anthropologist must be having a ball debating the future.

In the 1960s it was possible to drive in Bedfordshire and come upon a railway crossing with warning signs only in Italian. The brickworks were operated by predominantly Italian workers, many of whom lived in enclaves and spoke little or no English. The local newspaper carried advertisements (and editorial) solely in Italian.
Mind you, you could get excellent pizzas and other Italian food (made by Momma).
Ah - how we enjoyed 'Sorrentino's' in Ram Yard (complete with Italian ice cream desserts - Bertorelli, now bought-out by J Lyon!).

Bedford had its own Italian Vice Consulate, and it was said that the percentage of non-Brits exceeded that of places like Bradford.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/england/beds_herts_bucks/article_1.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/england/beds_herts_bucks/article_2.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/england/beds_herts_bucks/article_3.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/threecounties/senseofplace/italian_job.shtml

The people do want consumer durables

I'd like some consumer durables as well. Things don't last, not like the good old days. Planned obsolescence. Bloody Yanks. :p

Get yourself a vintage, British-made motor car and then get back to me about "durables".

There are still some American-made things such as Maytag washing machines and Hobart kitchen appliances that are made to the old-fashioned "last forever" standards but much of it is designed to crap out at Week 105, just after the warranty is up, yes.

There was a report about each Cuban household getting a "well-made" rice cooker, free from the government, to help them get by. I wonder where those came from?

Anyone want to bet that the next big thing shall be companies using cheap Cuban labour the way people in Europe are shifting to Eastern Europe? (Biiig palaver in Germany after Nokia told of plans to shut a factory in Bochum and shift production to a new-build factory in Rumania.) You could get Cubans working hard for $100/month and happy to be paid that much when most people in the States probably wouldn't even get out of bed for that amount. There must be capitalists in the States just dreaming of Cuba opening up.

All those bottom-feeder tourists chasing after cigars, rum and Cuban whores are just a side-show. The real fun starts when Cuba opens for business.

Chuks-
Cuba's #3 trading partner has been trying to buy these guys... thus far I don't think they have...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/47/Maytag_repairman.jpg/200px-Maytag_repairman.jpg


hint... there is a strong likelihood that trading partner also provided them thar rice cookers...

Cuba is all about jusitice. :rolleyes:

Just ask Las Damas (http://www.damasdeblanco.com/) de Blanco (http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/about_us/award_dinners/2006_dinner/2006_dinner.htmhttp://www.humanrightsfirst.org/about_us/award_dinners/2006_dinner/2006_dinner.htm).

Never been to Cuba. But from my reading of the debate on this thread, it's chux winning the first set 6-1 against El Grifo, who seems atypically short of a comeback.

El Grifo to serve, second set, with new balls. But he seems to have left the court.

he has even gone away. Even Fidel has only retreated to being First Secretary of the Cuban Communist Party, scarcely like going into exile.

Do not underestimate El Grifo! I don't have a problem with many of his points, actually. Some I find either just plain wrong or else very weak but others are either correct on the face of them or else just a matter of taste or emphasis. I did think I saw him blast the ball straight into the net on his last return but that might just be my naive Yankee optimism.

For instance it is really just a matter of taste whether one finds Fidel appealing or not, I think, when one looks at this or that side of the plugged nickel that is Cuba. For each wrinkly old dissident I see rotting in one of Fidel's prisons El Grifo probably sees some Young Pioneer with a shining face being taught to love El Lider Maximo.

I certainly do not find our embargo something to be proud of as an American but is it not remarkable that the last time it was eased, by President Carter, it was actions by Castro that caused us to tighten it again? Just for the record, Castro took due care to include the scum of the earth in those leaving Cuba during the short-lived Mariel Boat Lift. My goodness, you might almost think that Castro needed that embargo for some reason!

I found another interesting mention of those health statistics. (You will have noticed that Cuba shades the U.S.A. by exactly ONE decimal place.) Well, guess who provides the statistics? Yes, it is the Cuban government and the way things are run there, there is no independent way to check them.

The W.H.O. simply takes these statistics at face value from each national government reporting them and the person in the U.S. government who confirmed them was later unmasked as a Cuban government plant, so that she may have fed bogus stats into our intelligence system.

As some of you may know, Communist regimes often set great store by statistics, seen by such things as the curious way their leaders are often elected by such precise numbers as 99% of the electorate. Is it beyond imagining that they just decided to pick a number above that for the U.S.A. for life expectancy? I find it rather odd that people living under such harsh conditions should have such robust health. This is just another thing we shall have to wait to discover, I suppose.

Ah, but chuks...
Where is your tractor-loving paramour... Comrade Elena Don't-Ask?:confused:

Does Aeroflot fly direct to La Habana these days?

Does Aeroflot fly direct to La Havana these days?

As far as I know they still do. In fact a lot of European Airlines go to Havana now. Also, believe it or not, quite a few US registered aircraft, mostly cargo.

Once when I was in Havana when were still parking at the end of the runway, I witnessed a rather bizarre event involving a US Boeing 707 cargo aircraft. I was standing on the grass by my aircraft talking to a Cuban Army Major on the merits of thong bikinis when we noticed a 707 taxing down the taxiway toward us at pretty fast rate of speed. Right behind the 707 was one of those little yellow airport truck, you know the type, with its yellow light flashing trying to catch up with the 707. The 707 took the turn onto the runway so fast I thought he was going to roll the tires off the wheels. As it passed I noticed that it was US registered. As soon as he rolled onto the runway, before he aligned on the center line, he went to full power. Problem was the nose-wheels were not centered. Smoke started pouring from the nose tires as the aircraft started accelerating down the runway. The Major and I look at each other and he grabs a radio that was on his belt and starts yelling in effect "Aeroplane going to go boom!"

About that time we saw the aircraft jerk as the pilot realized the nose-gear was sideways, straightened it out and a few seconds later rotated and took off. The little yellow airport truck had stopped in front of us, we looked at them, they looked at us, they shrugged their shoulders, we shrugged ours and they drove off.

I asked the Major what that was all about and he replied that it must be some type of civil affair and no business of his. Then he asked on my next trip down could I bring him a case of that wonderful American elixir Budweiser.

I did see the 707 about two weeks later in MIA sitting in Corrosion Corner with no engines on it. I never did find out what the deal was that day.

There was a Cubana IL-wotsit, the one that looks like a Vickers VC-10, parked on the ramp at Miami International one day, just minding its own business when an exile Cuban driving a catering truck lost the plot and rammed it.

I guess he wanted to make some sort of political statement with that, since he was reported to have been shouting "Viva Cuba libre" as they led him away but anyway the Ilyushin was grounded with damage by the main entry door where the loading ramp part of the truck sliced into the fuselage. His career as a catering truck driver was at an end but I suppose the exile community saw him right.

That was the most excitement we saw until a CL-44 went tail down and its cargo of cattle spread out over the airport. High times!

A friend's father-in-law kept a sail boat on the Miami river that he lived on. He told us that the Cubans, the recent arrivals, would sling the chickens they sacrificed in their "Santeria" rituals in the river upstream of his mooring, so that he had to clear them out from the eddy between his boat and the dock. One more contribution to the life of the city, I guess you could call that.

Well El Grifo and the Times UK reporter must have visited some parallel universes in Cuba.
Here's a slightly less glowing report of life in Castro-topia:

http://tinyurl.com/ywohtw

From El Grifo.

Each and every Cuban receives a monthly handout of 20lbs of rice 10 lbs of beans and 2 lbs of chicken.

TWO WHOLE POUNDS OF CHICKEN A MONTH! Jesus man that is not even one whole chicken a month. So each and every Cuban can have one meal a month that has chicken it it. My god, how can they stand the opulence? :rolleyes:

Interesting article obgraham... thanks for that. All this talk of Cuba makes me want to get hold of some Graham Greene to read on the next long-haul flight in a couple weeks.

con-pilot... I'm pretty sure you probably spill two pounds of chicken during one of your well-publicized cooking binges...:p

US President George W Bush has called on Cuba to prepare for free elections

You sound like you might be disappointed if it happened. Standard stuff. Funnier things have happened with the passing (either of power or the more final type) of leaders in repressive countries, even right there in Euroland in recent memory.


Imagine Fidel will enjoy playing checkers on south beach in Miami with all the other retirees. Hope his Yiddish is passable.

I expect that Fidel will choose New York City, Brighton Beach. That way he can hang with his homies, the Russkies!

Miami would be such a drag, always having to find someone else to start his car for him, no way he could pop into a barber shop for a haircut and a shave without expecting to have his throat cut... I suppose he could live in one of those "gated communities" but how could he manage without his daily portion of adulation?

Fidel's going nowhere except under ground, I bet.

Where is that Elena, anyway? I am sure she would have some information for us about all of this. How long, to the nearest decimal point, that Cubans live, exactly how many votes Fidel got in the last "election," how many pounds of chicken Cubans get per month, you know... all the stuff we just don't have the "documents" for.

In fact, I am rather pleasantly surprised she has not popped up to claim Cuba for the new Russian empire. God only knows how many pesos they owe, such that Putin should be able to repo the whole damned island if he wants. Hands off those Chebbies, you Commie putz!

I'm pretty sure you probably spill two pounds of chicken during one of your well-publicized cooking binges...

No to worry Um, with my two dogs that 'help' me cook any dropped chicken never hits the floor. :p

(And no I'm mot insinuating that my dogs eat better than Cubans, better than me at times possibly..................;))

Since Fidel was "elected" to his seat in the parliament, in the last Cuban election, does he get to keep his seat as a representative? Did he give up his seat or only the position of Leader?

As for retirement, he can come to Canada. Similar health care system and even a few Ladas on the streets. Other than the weather he should feel right at home.

As for retirement, he can come to Canada.

Yeah, and move in with Sacha Trudeau. (http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/aug/06081504.html)

Pigboat, you are just another knee-jerk Yankbasher, I see. Very, very disappointing!

We stand second to no one in our home-grown, native American (even "Native American") ability to throw up lunatics fully the equal of Sacha Trudeau. More, better and even loonier lunatics; to suggest that Fidel might need to head off to the frozen wastes of Canada to find aid and comfort in his dotage is just being colossally unfair to our sandal-wearing classes in, particularly, New York City.

I concede that, no, we never did manage to elect someone quite so bonkers as Pierre Eliot Trudeau. It was close: if Teddy Kennedy had paid more attention to his driving out there on Chappaquiddick we might well have surpassed our northern neighbours in this as in so many other things but cruel fate decreed otherwise.

I admit that there are still isolated pockets of sanity in NYC. Years of liberal education cannot completely wipe out common sense; it seems somehow to persist but I am quite sure that Fidel should still find a warmer welcome there than in Montreal, say. Plus that he would not need to sweep the polar bear crap off his back porch every morning or figure out how to free the Moskvitch from a huge block of ice when he wanted to take a run out into the countryside to visit the oppressed peasantry.

When it comes right down to it, Fidel is ours. We don't want to see some lousy Canadian power trip developing here. We have enough trouble as it is with Pyongyang, Teheran and Baghdad; Montreal should just keep quiet in this rather than trying to grab this icon of leftism to develop into yet another global hotspot. In that case things could get really ugly.

another knee-jerk Yankbasher

lunatics fully the equal of Sacha Trudeau

even loonier lunatics

our sandal-wearing classes

still isolated pockets of sanity in NYC

visit the oppressed peasantry

lousy Canadian power trip

grab this icon of leftism


All of this in a simple 11 line posting and you wonder why I bugged out of the discussion.

I raised the point earlier somwhere wondering if this kind of tripe was based on superiority complex, or inferiority complex.

I am moving closer to making a decision.

Cuba has been changing for the better for many years now. When the Castro family move sideways to allow a younger breed of politicians to take the wheel, as they always stated they would, the speed of change will increase even more.

I wonder what flavour your repost will take this time.

El Grifo

Fidel, the accelerating pace of change in Cuba is making me dizzy!

First you cement yourself firmly in place as the Maximum Leader but now, just 50 years on, you decide you don't want that any more, that it is time for the youth generation (your 76 year-old brother) to take over.

(If Fidel & Co. had always planned to move aside then they sure had a funny way of going about that, killing and jailing so many political opponents. Surely they were not all Enemies of the State? We anti-Castro bigots, narrow-minded fools that we are, misinterpreted this sort of behaviour as "establishing oneself as a Communist tyrant" when it really was "preparing to move aside," not knowing any better. Even Fidel's own daughter has made this elementary error.)

What is it with Commie dictatorships and old age, anyway? The faces on the Socialist Realist posters are always beaming with youthful energy but the faces on the May Day reviewing stands look like mummies! Is it not so that your average Revolutionary is afraid of change?

El G., sorry if my unbridled and intemperate vocabulary troubles you. It is just that I paid for this keyboard and I like to use it as much as possible. It is not as though it costs extra to write using bigger words.

If my words trouble you, well, this isn't Cuba and one of those "attendance compulsory" eight-hour Fidel "Havana Special" stem-winders; you won't lose your ration card for ignoring MY drivel or even letting loose a fusillade of your own!

Don't hold back, man, tell us what you really think about all of this! You must be a secret admirer of the U.S.A. or something, eh? I know, I know: greatest country on Earth. You can just keep schtum about that if you like; adulation can be so darn difficult to give and to accept, even if we deserve it.

Pigboat, you are just another knee-jerk Yankbasher, I see. Very, very disappointing!


Drat!!! I've been outed. :eek: :p

We stand second to no one in our home-grown, native American (even "Native American") ability to throw up lunatics fully the equal of Sacha Trudeau.

I'll see your Teddy Kennedy and raise you a Jack Layton. Actually, with global warming being what it is, cher oncle Fidel should be right at home in Canada in a few years. I do suggest he move to Toronto, though.

On another tack, I blame the USCG for everything Trudeau père unleashed on this country. Back in the early '60's they pulled his sorry derrière from the Florida Straits as he and a couple friends were rowing from Key West to Havana to visit their chum Fidel. The CG could have been a little less Semper Paratus fer cryin' out loud.

The Cuban National Assembly is due to release the name of the new Leader at 14:30 EST. I am sitting on the edge of my seat awaiting the results.

As for the fight of getting Fidel, I think that the Montreal economy can use the $900 million infusion, reported by Forbes, that he would bring with him.

$900 million? Where did I put those sandals?

I shall speak to the city fathers when I next get home on leave. A nice sign reading, "Stedorf: twinned with La Habana" should do the trick along with plenty of socialist tat we can scrounge up from the remains of the D.D.R. not far off. For that kind of money Fidel can make speeches in the village square, even.

I'm not sure how good a turn-out we can promise for that since speakers of Spanish are a bit thin on the ground, though. How many conurbations are in the running for this glittering prize, so far?

Fox News just reporting that Raul was named Fidel's successor.

Tum te tum, te Tum te tum, Tum te tum te Tum te tum.

Blinding, if not so not visionary.
Size in this case trully does not matter, content is king.

Content is that of a kindergarten nature however :ok:

Raul for sure deserves his brief time in the limelight, but pretty soon, guys like Carlos Lage and his financial buddy, who has been the architect of the gradual opening up of Cuba, Julio Soberon, will come to the fore.

Question is, who will the righty-haties choose as their new bogey man.

On whom will they dispense their vitriol.

Fox News just reporting that Raul was named Fidel's successor.

My GOD! I am shocked. Who would have ever thought such a thing could happen?

It just proves that Democracy is alive and well in Cuba. Viva the election!



Oh, what's that, Raul was not elected. :confused:

He was appointed President by the Army Leadership, oh my. :ooh:

Okay, okay, not actually the Cuban Army Leadership. To be accurate it was the leaders of the "Party", who's make up is composed of Cuban Army Generals that appointed Raul, who is also a General. My bad.

Oh well, maybe someday the average Cuban will get at least one whole chicken a month and even perhaps a bit of beef. Satellite TV perhaps? Naw, I'm just being silly now.

If of course the "righty-haties" don't sneak in there and actually let the Cubans vote for their own leader and type of Government.

Sorry I'd add more, but I must go out and spread "vitriol".





(Okay, I'll fess up, there are only five Generals on the Committe of 21. It just sounded more funny to have more Generals on the Committe.)

My "Vitriol Low Level" light just came on.

I guess Raúl gets a free ride from this righty-hatey for a while and I sure hope he enjoys that.

Middle of the summer, anyone? I really enjoyed seeing the Berlin Wall come down and I can hardly wait to see all those Miami Cubans running around Havana next.

Feel free to gloat, El G., if my optimism, vitriol, whatever, is misplaced in this matter so that Cuban socialism proves as durable as the cockroach.

By Anita Snow

Associated Press



HAVANA – They are called “Raúlistas” – top military men who manage much of Cuba’s economy and populate the upper reaches of power. These men will likely ensure today that Raúl Castro not only succeeds his brother Fidel as president, but also remains in firm control.



Having served in Raúl Castro’s Defense Ministry for decades, Cuba’s active and retired military leaders today oversee key economic endeavors, from farming to the tourism, that bring in hard currency.

Five active generals sit on the Communist Party’s powerful 21-member Politburo, including two who run the important interior and sugar ministries.
While loyal first to Fidel Castro, many of these men have particularly close friendships with the younger brother. And they are likely to help him consolidate power if he is named president today after the ailing 81-year-old Fidel’s resignation last week.

The Revolutionary Armed Forces are one of the island’s strongest and most respected institutions, and with the top generals backing him, Raúl is unlikely to face problems from the military at large – a sector that in many countries can be the most dangerous for a new government.

Moreover, Castro’s Cuba, unlike many Latin American countries, has never experienced a military coup or rebellion.

President Bush acknowledged the military’s influence months before Fidel’s resignation, urging it to embrace change and abstain from using force to keep the Communist government in power.

“You may have once believed in the revolution. Now you can see its failure,” Bush said in an October speech.

Critical to Raúl’s success will be “the extent to which Raúl and the generals are able to uphold loyalty to the chain of command,” former CIA analyst Brian Latell wrote in “After Fidel,” his recent book about the Castro brothers. “The odds of that will be much in their favor, in the beginning at least.”

Dissident Vladimiro Roca, a fighter pilot before he broke with the government, believes Raúl Castro has the military leaders’ support. But even more than that, “they are interested in maintaining their status,” Roca told The Associated Press in 2006 after Fidel Castro first ceded provisional power his brother.

That status is significant.

Gen. Abelardo Colome Ibarra, 68, oversees the island’s vast domestic security and intelligence apparatus as interior minister. Gen. Ulises Rosales del Toro, 65, controls the Sugar Ministry. Other generals and colonels have run fishing, transportation and Habanos S.A., which works with a European firm to market Cuban cigars abroad.

Ramiro Valdes, 75, one of only three men honored with the title of Commander of the Revolution, for years operated a key company importing computers and other electronics, until Raúl named him communications minister shortly after Fidel fell ill.

The armed forces also manage a chain of hundreds of small consumer goods stores and a tourism company that runs more than 30 hotels, with subsidiaries that provide domestic tourist travel by air and land.



I bet they get more than 2 pounds of chicken a month. :p

And so go on the terrible twins of hypocrisy. :hmm:

Here is a new Bogeyman for you to strip down and analyse.

Google him lightweights.

Richard Gage

Hee haw to do with Cuba just another brick in the wall.

Richard Gage?

The 9/11 conspiracy nut Richard Gage?

If he is the best you can come up I'm afraid you've lost the plot altogether there old bean. Besides that, what does he have to do about Cuba?

Now back to spreading more "vitriol". :p



(Hey chuks, I'm running low on vitriol, you got any extra you can give me.):E

At what point, at which juncture, during which reply or repost, are you going to take into account that what was actually scribed in the post prior to your reply.

I have no intention of becoming some kind of sacraficial anode here, but your screaming hyperbole has to be brought under control at some stage.

I for one, have had my fill of you and your little buddy chuks.



Siamese twins of the blinkered viewpoint.

i lived in Havana for a year on a contract and it really Pixxxes me off to see people defending the system there.

I saw some socialist **** on TV here in the UK last night waxing lyrical about low infant mortality rates and free this and that and education etc... all the usual propaganda.

put it this way when I was there Fido and his boy OWNED everything, backhanders were 'reportedly' the only way to get things done. Cubans were not allowed to leave the country or even go into the hotels where we stayed. the beaches and boat yards had armed police to stop people trying to leave. Infant mortality might be low but once you're no longer an infant just try and get your hand on some cough medicine. You needed a visa to leave !

but the people were fantastic, really lovely. but many of the doctors and engineers had to take jobs as cab drivers to get currency to survive.

the sooner the americans get in there the better.

This thread could be rehashed with the title GW replacing Fidel Castro, the main diference to me is that Cuban citizens may be given 2lbs of chicken a month wheras wastefull US citizens eat 2lbs of chicken a serving.
I like the idea of trying to get my own country suitably respectable before I impose myself on neighbours.
The kids of Cuba are slim and fit and educated,
Did you know that with 30% of US kids, the only vegetable they eat is french fries.
Maybe there is more to life than having a credit rating when you are 12 and being a little porker.
you remember the good old family values, the different generations sharing time together telling stories, respect for your elders, all that stuff.
I know which country I would prefer to grow up in and it ain't the USA

(Jet Blast does say to blame the Americans)

You figure these (http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.floatingcubans.com/truck_starboard_large.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.floatingcubans.com/&h=1200&w=1600&sz=413&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=nqYcGDrjrzwWYM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3DCuban%2Braft%2Bold%2Btruck%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den) guys were looking for chicken or fries? ;)

Connie, maybe them Generals get an extra handful of gizzards a week. :O

At what point, at which juncture, during which reply or repost, are you going to take into account that what was actually scribed in the post prior to your reply.

I have no intention of becoming some kind of sacraficial anode here, but your screaming hyperbole has to be brought under control at some stage.

I for one, have had my fill of you and your little buddy chuks.



Siamese twins of the blinkered viewpoint.

Sigh, says it all really. When you lost the debate you resorted to this sort of nonsense. Sorry El Grifo, to be honest I really like you, shame really. :(

Well better luck next time. :ok:

apologies Mr Dushan,
I should of been less lazy and wrote George W instead of GW.
Funny how easy you can get them confused though!!!
Dont hear from him much lately, has his brain given up yet.

Just think what a country Cuba would be like without the US embargo.
Maybe the people trafic would be the other way

A friend of mine applied for immigration to Cuba in the 80's, he was told to continue his fight against the capitalist pigs in his own country, He still lives in Liverpool married with a few kids. They must be fussy with imigration.

they all have it infamy!

Do try to keep up with our New World Order! Is now FREEDOM FRIES and has been ever since Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys refused to sign on to Coalition of the Brain Dead.

Also yes, Ketchup is now an official vegetable for purposes of demonstrating Amercan healthy diet under new toughly compassionate lo-tax Republican administration. You got a problem with that? Colour RED like tractor! What not to like?

Google "Cayo Hueso" satellite imagery and you shall see construction of a giant ballista designed to sling frozen chickens 90 miles. First we built "Radio Libertad" and now this! Stand by for Little Brother of Beloved Comandante to have his first 8-hour spontaneous and off-the-cuff klotz of gripping socialist oratory be interrupted by cries of "Incoming!" as frozen chooks rain down on the spell-bound crowd of spontaneously assembled true believers in the one true path of Death by Socialism.

One good thing about vitriol-dripping, capitalist running dog lick-spittle lackies of neo-colonialism is that we just never give up.

First we tried the secret invasion that was extensively covered in Life magazine first, not thinking that Fidel had a subscription. That didn't work out so well.

Next we tried an embargo. Well, we are still waiting for that one to do the trick. Give it time.

Then we ran the gamut of itching powder, exploding cigars, poisoned underwear, voodoo curses, dripping vitriol ... you name it, we tried it. What is this guy, Superman?

Then we came up with the brilliant wheeze of depopulating Cuba. All that happened was that south Florida filled up with crazed Cuban dirtbags. Conpilot got some work out of that but otherwise, back to Square One it was. Bummer.

We built a powerful radio transmitter to tell the Cubans what they were missing. Freedom fries with ketchup, as much as you want, three meals a day, "Yummy!" Still no luck.

Now cue sudden "Twang!" and one of Frank Perdue's finest winging its way Havana-wards. We might finally be onto a winner with this one.

Con
Sorry to hear that I am removed your Valentines list.
I do however think that :-

Siamese twins of the blinkered viewpoint.

Was one of my best for a while.

Chuks I see, is still slavering on however. Give him a nudge will you :ok:

The perpetual drone here on Pprune is, that if you are positive on anything that the US is negative about, you ar pounced upon by the usual suspects and branded an "american basher" or worse

It is a theme that has become a tad boring over the years

The US for sure is a dynamic country, a country however which has lost a huge amount of international respect over the last 20 or so years. That loss of respect has increased exponentially in recent years.

Cuba however, is an emerging country which has managed to escape the manipulative talons of the red white and blue. This fact clearly sticks in the craw of the American Eagle.

Some "representatives" of the US act like spoiled kids on this one.

It often appears that the main reason the hate all positive talk of Cuba is because it is unavailable to them, they cannot have it.

Cuba is far, far from perfect. It has however many, many positive things going for it. Future and imminent internal changes will improve things rapidly.

So rapidly in fact, that one of the biggest fears amongst Cubans today, is the possible return of the refugees from Miami and the subsequent trouble which that will cause.

Two sides to every story. Although European, I have spent the last 14 years travelling to many and varied parts of the world and I mean real travelling connecting with the indigenous people. I have been told that I can extract a persons life story over a coffee (or a mojito) of which I have shared thousands. I hear it from the ground up, comparisons come easy.


Cuba will become an important player in the Caribbean in the decades to follow, where exactly that will leave the US position, who knows.

The players of the incoming Democrat administration are already making positive grunts.

Chang or Eng? I am left-handed so I need to be Chang, I guess. Or was that Eng? You got a preference here, Conpilot?

I dunno, El G. I think you're losing your grip on reality here but what should I know about that anyway?

I am sure that if I really, really wanted to visit Cuba I should be able to manage that. It really is that I do not want to be giving my Yanqui dollars to that old Commie bum, Fidel. Anyway he is on record as saying he doesn't even want them; it is not as if I am being small-minded over this.

I see you trying to use reverse psychology here, you sly devil! You are taunting me with the fact that my own government is trying to tell me where I can or cannot go. Well, back when b*ggery was also banned I still abjured the practice despite my basically contrary nature.

Come to that, there were bargains galore in the old D.D.R. and I only visited there once! Just a quick shufti at the peace memorial, lookiing for all the world like an enormous, heavily guarded glass ashtray, a leisurely meal of truit amandine that was much more like a piece of oil-soaked cardboard breaded and fried and that was one more box ticked on my Yankee list of "countries visited".

Well, you know what we are like that way: Paris, Texas, Virginia or France, what's the diffo? I have seen all three, actually, a claim that I doubt your average so-called well-traveled European can make. A week in San Juan, Puerto Rico will just have to do for now until I can visit Havana.

I promise you that I shall jet off like a veritable startled squid Havana-wards the minute the embargo is lifted if that makes you feel any better. You really think my sad little misconceptions shall crumble when I finally get to this tropical paradise? This is a risk I am prepared for.

Ferk me sideyways, anther one has popped out of the undergrowth.

Let me think, Yep, I will play him like they play me :ok:

2 lbs of chicken, what about the 20 lbs of rice and 10lbs of beans.

Selectivity = bias :hmm: worth a try.

2 lbs of chicken, what about the 20 lbs of rice and 10lbs of beans.Now that's "per person"!
If they have the sewer infrastructure to take care of that, they've got my respect!

Like myself obgraham, the Cubans have learned to process Sh!t :ok:

Lemme see now, 20 divided by 2.2 divided by 30 equals, umm, a whole freakin' 300 grams of rice per day! AND 150 grams of beans! Sorry about the chicken, though: you only get about 30 grams per day.

What, I should go to McDonalds and order "a Chicken McNugget" if I want the total Cuba experience?

"Yes, sir, and do you want a fry with that?"

I must be missing the point of this: People on Cuba are really larging it up on such a diet, or just that it is "free"? I get paid a whole $20/month for my work but that is okay because I get 480 grams of rice, beans and chicken per day "for free"? Say what?

Man, it is good they aren't trying to build socialism with such as me for raw material; I would be long gone even if that meant doing a Corporal Klinger down the Malecon during the big May Day parade!

El Grifo, make a note to yourself: Do NOT give up the day job to work as a marketing rep for the Cuban Tourist Board! This gloss you are trying to put on life under Castro: Didn't anyone ever tell you that you cannot polish a turd?

You are being far too straight with us by giving the numbers when I am sure that the official government line is something like, "The Cuban diet is rich and varied," meaning that they get rice, beans AND chicken, with the scraps of chicken being the "rich" part. If it were just rice and beans then it should be merely "varied," I assume.

You never give up Chuks do you.

What would be quite interesting is if you actually took time to learn the facts instead of wasting your time and mine scribing all this garbage and meaningless junk. :\

"Also yes, Ketchup is now an official vegetable for purposes of demonstrating Amercan healthy diet under new toughly compassionate lo-tax Republican administration. You got a problem with that? Colour RED like tractor! What not to like?"

What? Tractors are (John Deere) green, not red! Bulldozers are yellow, and..got it now, Fire Trucks are red.

Except when they aren't. Must be some kind of conspiracy.

Gotta go, though. 2lb chicken lunch almost done cooking on the grill. Then, it's off to clean the guns...

Tom

Play pretty, children,

I am off to talk to the grown ups now :confused:

My deep dislike of your shallowness has deepened even further.

As "ambassadors" here of your country, I believe you have only served to perpetrate the myth.

Hah, ignorant capitalist running dog! I direct your attention to the Porsche tractor in a very tasteful shade of ketchup RED, a German tractor with aesthetics to be proud of and nothing you mid-Western types have probably ever even heard of. Or perhaps it is Austrian? Anyway, check that out and get back to me. Green, bah!

El Grifo, what is with the big S.O.H. failure? Just which facts have I missed here in the great dietary break-down? Or is it simply that you do not like my interpretation of the facts?

I don't mind that you think Cuba is the neatest thing ever, even if the poor old Cubans have to stand out there in the broiling sun listening to some wrinkly old galoot wearing army boots drone on for most of the day about the inevitable triumph of socialism just to get their ration cards stamped.

We Yanks have such a short attention span, you know, and eight minutes let alone eight hours would probably do it for us, but then we just do not need government food handouts. Well, not most of us, anyway.

This is not just a hard sell but an im-flamin'-possible one, mate! It could even be counter-productive, taunting me with the forbidden delights of this tropical paradise.

That is to say that there was a chance that I would have kept my crass Yanqui self off this island so that you lot could have it all to yourselves. Now that you have thoroughly wound me up I shall make like the proverbial rat up a Cuban drain pipe first chance I get ... all your fault.

If you find me annoying as some text entity you can just imagine chuks in 3-D, asking awkward questions about all those lame-ass revolutionary slogans plastered on the crumbling walls or giggling childishly about how we settled the hash of that ill-shaven dude in the beanie with the druggy gaze. (You probably think Ché was gazing off into the future at the Triumph of Socialism in that famous image. No, he was just high as a kite on ganja! The dude was flying when he was making economic policy as head of the National Bank and that was the real reason they had to ship his sorry butt out as Revolutionary Without Portfolio. How did you think things got into such a state? "The U.S. embargo." Riiight!)

EG-

While you did indeed post...

Siamese twins of the blinkered viewpoint.

Way back in Post #20, I posted this...

...one would have to wonder why Venezuela and Cuba (the Siamese twins of Latin American socialism... Bolivia is something else entirely...) are among the countries with...

...so Chuks & Con Bunker (you Siamese blinker boys... you know those guys were BOTH married? I dare not imagine the honeymoon...)

But be that as it may... EG, I think what gets people going on your posts about Cuba is that you express it as if it is all sweetness & light... and it's not. Chuks gets a bit agitated, but then, he probably misses Elena.

I don't doubt for a moment it's improving in Cuba, but then, it could hardly have been worse during each of the 15 or so approximately triennial mass exoduses from Cuba that have occurred since Castro assumed power. I spent several years spotting and hauling literally tens-of-thousands of Haitians and Cubans (and the occasional Dominican) out of leaky things that could scarcely be called 'craft' everywhere from West of Guantanamo around Baracoa up to Matanzas. I've worked Port-de-Paix, Cap-Haitien to Gonave on the South Claw to Port-au-Prince and even Ile de la Tortue. Not to mention every island in the Florida Keys and little towns in the West Everglades you've never heard of.
I know the difference between US immigration policy for Cuban and Haitian migrants, have had to enforce both and haven't necessarily liked it nor agreed with it. But I really don't need a lecture on the Caribbean. I've worked the place, I've been in camps of 20,000 migrants down island and am acutely aware of the problems in the Carib.

Despite the fervent wishes of the domino-playing old men in Maximo Gomez Park, the Cuban contingent from Dade County is not going to go rocketing down there to reclaim their birthright when Cuba opens up. The birthright, land, homes, and every other thing that the lower middle and up classes of Cuba left behind post-Batista is decayed, destroyed, and repossessed.

Even if it were not, the bulk of today's Miamians consider themselves Cuban by ethnicity, but they don't consider themselves to be from Cuba. There's nothing there for them and the old guard is dying off. When it opens they will go there for business and to drink mojitos in Hemingway's old haunts. Mostly, they don't even read the literature out of Cuba these days because not much comes out... except Granma.

Another bit for thought. Castro's daughter was again interviewed and figures Uncle Raul is more of the same. Does she know for sure? Probably not, but her opinion is probably persuasive. It probably is too bad the embargo hasn't been lifted, because once the Cubans got a handle on the fact that 'Papa Fidel' has been abusing his children for over 45 years, they might get a bit exercised about that as well. Even kids whose parents beat them still love them, especially if they think everybody else's daddy is the same way.

If my Govermant was acceptable to the free world,
If my people had good education with access to excellant health care,
If my idea of family life was gran and the great gran kids with all those in between strolling out along the boardwalk in the evening sun,
If I had enjoyment other than cable, SUV's and becoming pear shaped.
Until then I would probably keep my cake hole Ferme!!!

Yep, and if I didn't know anything about the person to whom I was addressing those comments, whether that person owns an SUV, or a television, or his family situation, or his interests, or his weight or BMI or bodyfat index or resting heart rate or his values or anything of the sort, I might consider it somewhat ill-mannered to make comments on those matters and I might confine myself to the issues at hand.

I might even think that someone who made comments of that sort had a rather crap upbringing. But I would only think these things, I wouldn't be foolish enough to shout them out in front of God and everybody.

But I'm just an American, what could I know?

I thought the post related to myself,
However for me this post relates to justification to impose your views and rights upon your neighbour,
If your house neighbour leaned across the fence and told you that you were a hopeless father and was bringing up your kids badly, what would your reaction be especially if you looked at his druggy violent little offspring, (this is not a comparison) Therefore is the neighbour in a good position to comment.
However if the chap next door is respectable (perhaps a pilot) kids are polite and educated, maybe even a friend then your reaction might be ' the smug gits got a point'.

Pls do not bring him upstairs into it, the last thing we need is another budweiser crusade.

the last thing we need is another budweiser crusade.


Hey now, I have had some very nice, fun filled Budweiser crusades!

(None in Cuba however. :p)

I thought the post related to myself,

Not my original one, nope. But your point is well-taken. Why is it OK for Castro to take swipes at the US, but not the other way around? Granted, we don't trade with them, and I'm not going to enter that swamp, because once you go in you're not coming out. But as far as fist-pounding rhetoric, much more of it flows north across the Florida Straits than south. All those good folk in Cuba get is Radio Mambi (if they can hide the antenna).

The point of my post was that El Grifo (in my opinion) overstates the good and understates the bad vis-a-vis Cuba. He's entitled to that opinion, but I don't happen to think he's particularly accurate based upon a lot of experience in the region.

As long as I'm explaining myself I also think there's a pervasive tendency on this board to stereotype Americans. People seem not to be aware that there are 330 million of us, and we're sort of difficult to categorize as a result. I'm pretty sure your post discussing attitudes and preferences was directed at Americans. If it was not, I apologize for misinterpreting.

As for you, how could I take a crack at you (even if I wanted to, which I don't)? Your ID says you're from "WA". That could be Western Australia, West Africa, Wide Atlantic, or even the State of Washington and probably numerous others I never considered.

Not all tractors are green and yellow; they also come in RED.

There is Budweiser and there is Budweiser. The original is from Budvar (Budweis) in the Czech Republic. Mr Busch just took the name with him to the States to slap onto his mass-market, watery pee. The original is arguably miles better so do not just go all snobby every time you hear the name Budweiser. You might be missing something!

And, yes, there are 330 million citizens of the U.S.A., so that what many of you others think you know about us, well, you might want to think again! We don't all sit at home in front of the TV, you know. Even if it's only 8% of us who can speak another language that still makes about 26 million Americans who are multi-cultural by definition.

I cannot resist winding people up who are snobby about "Americans", think that the sun shines out Fidel's fundament or that Che was some kind of Super Nice Dude, or even just that Cubans have access to "excellent health care." Given that we have to share this planet I need my space so that you will have to expect the odd verbal jab from one of my elbows. This IS Jet Blast, after all.

Stand by for the inside story of "Che Guevara, Pot-head"... It is a seldom-told tale that rips the lid off the image of the noble revolutionary to show where those loony economic theories really came from!

Thanks for the attempt to bring this wayward thread back into life um-lifting.

I just want to point out to you that your interpretation of what I have said here is probably coloured by the looney fringe here, who have nothing more to contribute lately than pure piss-take. That is their choice, so be it.

Correct me if I am wrong, I have never went out of my way to idolise or support Fidel on this thread, I have always talked about the ordinary people and their very ordinary lives. I have spent a lot of time in Cuba and I have spent the vast majority of that time amongst the ordinary working people.

The people are poor by US standards, but rich by Caribbean standards.
The people have a achieved a great deal despite the problems both internal and external.

They have a great spirit.

Year by year, things are improving. You can see it in the style of clothing, the snack foods they eat, the electronic items like mobile phones and laptops the carry.

The country despite the blockade, is rising out of its torpor.

Anyone who visits regularly and tells you otherwise is either blind, ignorant or has an agenda.

I have worked closley with MINREX (Ministry of the Interior) and MINTUR (Ministry of Tourism) with absolutely no restrictions of any kind.

I arrive on a flight from Europe, taxi to the pre booked online hotel of my choice, hire cars, book internal flights with my UK credit card, buy sim cards for my mobile phone, just like any other destination I have ever visited.

I was stopped from working one time in the Holguin area by Minrex guys (Captain Juan and Captain Pedro if you can credit that) because I had snuck in without a correct visa, after 3 days of them coming back to my hotel to ensure I was not a bad guy the told me to carry on, but to make sure that I had the correct visa next time.

Hardly a case of ruling with an Iron Glove is it ?

I make a case of this sort because, apart from the odd exception, I am tired of the frightened bogey man stories that continue to dribble out of the mouths of some very opinionated souls on this forum, most of whom have never set foot (landside) on Cuban soil.

My interest is in the people of Cuba, of whom I have met and talked to hundreds, not the leaders who I have never, or am ever likely to meet.

I have met many who are tired of Fidel and have met many more who respect him, but the vast majority agree that things are improving at a health pace.

I have also met many Cubans overseas who left Cuba legally and are free to return at any time.

Although my interpretation might appear "rosy", the facts are the facts.

Cheers
El Grifo

Taking the Mickey? Flog me with a soggy noodle if I am wrong but I thought that was partly the point!

You lot just love to whine about our stereotype American flaws while simultaneously uttering such gems as that Cuba is nothing like the D.D.R., that Cubans get free food from a kindly government and that Cubans enjoy excellent health care.

There is no point to going into polit-nerd mode and just parroting counter-statistics; where is the fun in that? On the other hand when someone tries to tell us in all seriousness what a good deal it is to be living off a handout of 20 pounds of rice, ten pounds of beans and 2 pounds of chicken per month then I just cannot help going into "target acquisition mode." The B.S. meter goes into the red zone, a klaxon sounds and my fingers start twitching on the keyboard.

All three points cited above are provably wrong, so there is very little fun to be had in arguing them. You can just check the internet for plenty of convincing information about this; if you don't want to, well, that is your privilege but don't expect everyone here to just let this nonsense go unanswered.

Ignore for a moment the minor questions of political repression, hunger and the lack of modern medicines, all of which seem to me to be powerful counter-arguments to the nonsense parroted here. No, let us take a short flight of fancy, only about 90 miles: Please, please do not tell me that everyone here has only gazed at that picture of Che with his scraggly beard, his dirty beanie and his unfocused gaze and has not had even the slightest twinge of suspicion that there was some sort of doughty herbal warrior!

Am I alone in this, completely off the beam? Maybe so, but I bet that I can make a convincing case that he was on drugs when he was supposedly laying a sound foundation for Cuba's economic future. It is either that or else that he was a deluded and vicious Commie toe-rag. Choose one.

I stare at disbelief at you reply.

On one hand I think, why am I wasting my time with this slicer up and server of sections of statements. I am perfectly capable of self-sustenance; I do not need words inserted in my mouth.

Whining about stereotypical American flaws :confused: WTF.

I am talking about CUBA here, stop dragging it back to your personal obsessions. If anyone here is whining !!!!!

So now, in order to drag the thread down even further into the crap, you are throwing in drug allegations. True or false, WTF has this got to do with the thread other than to try and spread another layer of the stinky bullshit that you seem eager and willing to dispense on an otherwise interesting subject.

I ask myself why do I keep coming back to this.

The only answer that I can come up with is that my pet hate is puffed up, over opinionated pseudo intellectuals, who after failing to argue a point logically, or accept experiences other than their own, revert to simple childsplay in order to do nothing more than to throw up a smokescreen.

Lucky we don't know any :ok:


Do you really think it is worthwhile continuing with this. It is not going anywhere and by the look of it, no one is learning too much and it's not really much fun any more either.

My apologies in advance. What I know about Cuba would fit onto the back of an envelope. So my understanding of the situation may be somewhat unsound:

Cuba B.C. (before Castro) - the whole place was basically run by and in the sole interests of, a tiny minority of huge landowners and companies. Castro kicked them out and installed a communist regime. For decades afterwards (even after Cuba ceased to be a serious threat to the USA in the wake of the missile crisis), these same displaced landowners and companies have actively influenced US policies towards Cuba behind the scenes. Perhaps, once Castro has gone, a newer regime, more open to the 21st century will evolve.

And as soon as Cuba does open up, you can bet your last dollar that all those displaced landowners and companies will be clamouring to get their assets back, or at least sufficient compensation to turn ordinary Cubans back into the 3rd world citizens they were decades ago. Minus the health care and literacy rates obviously... :}

This airship, is precisely now what many Cubans fear the most !

On the other hand, it's what most Cubans fear the least.

Ok let's put another way.

This is what many Cubans have expressed to me, the fact that an opening up and a return of the wealthy Miaman exiles, looking to claim what they perceive is their lands and properties along with the turmoil created, is their greatest fear right now.

Whether they have or have not any, no Cubans have expressed any other fears to me.

I just returned from My last trip (via Miami oddly enough) Dec 15th.

And your live and indigenous source is ?

Or, is this just another wordplay game.

Trying to be constructive then. On the basis that there is a change of regime and gradual "opening up" over the next decade or so: perhaps the EU and USA could agree to some form of agency that would effectively "remove or contain" the excesses of any future compensation deals that may be required? And some form of adequate protection that would shield ordinary Cubans from suddenly finding "the rug swept out from under their feet" as greedy insiders (or outsiders) buy up all Cuban assets à la Russia ca. 1990s? Until they're "up and running"? That would be a good start.

Nice one airship, the grown ups are back :ok:

I confess to having little idea how things will unfold on the ground so to speak, but I do know of two good men in the Cuban Administration, namely Carlos Lage, tipped to take a large element of control after Raul's fairly short lived "courtesy presidency" comes to an end.

A very different kind of thinker entirely from the current, apparent ragime.

The other big player is Julio Soberon, "the money man". He has done great things behind the scenes for the last while, opening up European access to tourism, in the form of joint operation of well known hotel chains all over Cuba. This is bringing rewards to the country and required a great deal of re-thinking of the old rules.

I earlier described the profit sharing schemes that these hotels operate for the smooth running and benefit of their staff from cleaners upwards.


Incidentaly, a great many of the hotels were constructed and owned by an organization called Gaviotas, a group more connected to the military than anything else. Headed up by no other than our dear friend RAUL !!!

The EU, especially Spain have many strong connections within Cuba.

I hope that when the time comes, they have the guts to stand up for the rights of the indigenous, resident Cuban.

Carlos Lage. A siamese twin, presumably?

Okay, okay, so no one but me thinks Ché was a loadie? I stand corrected! And you guys are in a sweat about the rights of Cubans being in a worse state post-Castro. You are smoking WHAT, exactly?

There's no need to make anything up; it is all right here on the screen. Do not adjust your set ...

A "loadie" Eh ??

Have to admit I kind of like that one chuks. Totally new one to me. Never heard that one before. Trully.

Mind if I borrow it for the future :ok:

Though I've enjoyed these gentle and not-so-gentle repostes here, I've a question for Grifo. Seriously. I readily admit I've not been there, have no direct knowledge of the place, and defer to his experience there.

However. Castro is reportedly among the richest men in the world. If that turns out to be true, then obviously he stole most of it from his people, considering how not-well-off they are.

When change occurs, Grifo, will we see the top leaders, Raul, the Generals, and the two guys you mentioned as reformers, abscond with obscene amounts of money in their Swiss bank accounts?

If so, they'll simply go down in history with the likes of Sukarno, Idi Amin, and that Emperor guy in Africa who I can't remember.

If they simply take a comfortable retirement, and the cash goes to the country, they'll then earn my respect.

You can idolise Che if you like. It was a very nice piccie Korda took! Sorry if I have spoiled it for you by revealing that the distant gaze wasn't down to idealism but just that the dude was in his usual ganja-induced haze up there on the platform.

Not to be unfair: It is 110° in the shade, your feet are all sweaty in those army boots, you are going to have to listen to 8 hours of Fidel's balls-achingly dull socialist ranting while stood up there at his right hand looking as if this is stuff you haven't heard about 100 times before ... You really think YOU could take all of that crap straight? Uh-uh; this is definite grounds for total splifflication.

No, but seriously, the second cousin of one of my co-pilots ran a "head shop" in downtown Kisangani. The usual stuff: "Zap" comics, rolling papers, bongs, peace medallions, marijuana leaf decals, water pipes, t-shirts ...

Business was pretty slow due to the usual troubles and the fact that they were on a barter economy by this time but one day this tall, grubby, bearded guy in smelly green fatigues came in who looked vaguely familiar.

He bought a whole box of Zig-Zag papers, a bong and the latest issue of "Zap" and paid with a fresh, crisp $100 bill, saying "Keep the change, bro'." It was only later, when the second cousin was looking at a Che t-shirt he had hung up there on the wall that he realised who that customer was.

Don't get me wrong; I have a lot of time for Che. The dude rocked! Check out the way he ran his court there. None of this yadda-yadda due process this, multiple appeals that ... you showed up in front of his court, well you must have f*cked up somewhere along the line so it was "Al paredon!" with you and "Next, please!" Cool or what? Revolutionary justice!

It is just all these people getting down on loadies, "So what has a dope-smoking hippie ever achieved" All you squares, check it out: El Loadie Maximo!

Okay, he kinda screwed the Cuban economy and maybe he wasn't exactly Mr Human Rights there but that is just nit-picking. I mean, everybody knows that Abraham Lincoln sold poisoned milk to school children but he still gets respect too. So lighten up, okay?

El Grifo, anything you can find here that you like, just run with it! You are welcome.

Obgraham,

I think it is highly likely that Fidel will end his days in his beloved Cuba, although many well placed people will tell you that he is already dead.

Whether he dies/died a rich man, how can any of us tell, how do any of us know for sure. The smokscreen of right wing propaganda is to intense.

As for the "kindly little man" we have come to know as Raul, let us wait and see.

If he lives long enough for the pressure to become unbearable, he may disappear into the waiting arms of Hugo.

Hugo will take care of him

For my part, I think he will end his days in Cuba like his older, more charismatic brother

Rich or super rich, time will tell. Super rich though ? I doubt it.

Penniless, not likely.

"So what has a dope-smoking hippie ever achieved"

Edited to add for chukkie baby :-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J10w3FuCwfQ

This a joke chuks, only intended to be funny, but pointed at the same time :}

I am mostly speaking here of those assets that belong to Americans and today are "nationalized". Once again, forgive me for saying so, but I'm under the tiniest impression that in spite of whatever nationalisation laws existed in those places at the time, ex. Europeans basically managed to takeover the whole N. American continent over the past few hundred years. And I would be very surprised should an entirely equitable solution for Cuba come from the absolute (past?) masters of lawless annexations in the recent past...?! :uhoh:

In view of the numbers of very rich Europeans who are undoubtedly affected by the recent unfoldings concerning Lichtenstein-based bank accounts, may I suggest that these sorts of initiatives are to be encouraged, that European tax authorities should be allowed to offer ever-increasing rewards for additional and subsequent disclosures.

Those who support ill-conceived foreign-policies and completely-liberal economic policies generally may (or not) have an Achilles-heel. That is becoming self-evident. I hope that over the next few months we will have similar disclosures concerning "would-be dictators behind the scenes" from the places US citizens have hitherto preferred to hide their income...?!

Way to go...?! (You're our only hope OB1-Kenobe) :ok:

Are you still on about those Jewish gangsters? I only ask because this is one seriously tangled piece of prose you have crafted. It left me trying to guess what you mean and all I can come up with is that you think the Jews secretly own most of the States. I wish that were so because then I would definitely be on a winner with some of my in-laws!

I'm sure there must be a way to sort out the claims that are down to Fidel's nationalisations. That was almost 50 years ago. If you take the D.D.R. for a possible example of this some got their property back, some got money and some got nothing but there is that concept of "eminent domain" that basically puts the State above the private property-holder. Anyway, I don't think some mafiosi, Jewish or not, are really going to get anything back for whatever they lost, as if they were Coca-Cola, say.

chuks, there will never be a complete restitution to the descendents of Jewish populations in Europe for losses incurred during the period of WWII simply because the financial costs would be too great. Where governments conspire in order to lessen their own responsibilities and obligations.

Imagine how much simpler it would be then, for modern day societies to award damages to "ordinary hard-working capitalists" who'd been deprived of their Cuban assets all these years - no guilt complex over starving, emaciated remnants of what were once human-beings, no matter that they no longer resembled whatever they might have once been...ordinary people (and capitalists) for the most part I guess. A population to be taken advantage of - 100%. :sad:

Just who is awarding stuff here? Cuba has bupkis, right? Is there anything left to fight over?

You can impute the darkest of motives to the capitalist monsters of the U.S.A. but we would have to be barking mad to be all lined up ready to race off to Cuba to fight over the scraps. I think a much more likely scenario would be a tremendous flow of capital into Cuba from the U.S.A., attempting to show the advantages of re-joining the real world rather than staying in Marxist La-La-Land.

Again, look at the D.D.R. Every taxpayer in Germany (including those in the former East) is paying a 10% premium to help pay for the revival of the economy of the former East Germany.

I think you lefties are in for the biggest shock of your tiny lives when all of this unwinds. One ground for that: I just saw the New York Philharmonic play "The Star-spangled Banner" in Pyongyang on my satellite TV.

Kim Jong Il stayed away; he must have been busy sorting out his sock drawer and, anyway it would have been too much to see the little worm stood up there saluting our national anthem on a global broadcast but "Holy mackerel, Catfish!" Who is in charge of programming "reality" these days? One can hardly imagine the surprises Cuba shall throw up.

darkest of motives to the capitalist monsters of the U.S.A.

Where do you get this from chuks. Is it a quote, Is it an irony, are you trying to put words in people's mouths again, is it an attempt at humour ?

WTF are you getting these inflammatory phrases from. Not from anybody on this thread you little drama queen you.

I think you are playing little boring old, agent provocateur again :yuk:

I AM just a pseudo-intellectual. I have a copy of the "Cliff Notes for Jet Blast" that I work from. No orginal thought necessary, I just look this stuff up and write it down.

I thought I had everyone fooled but El Grifo saw right through me. Durn! Back to being just another ignorant American hick, I guess ...

I am so ashamed; please ignore whatever I have written here and pay close attention to El Grifo who is totally correct in every opinion that he holds about that great little vacation spot, Cuba. He European, smart too plenty! Me Yanqui, dumb like rock, ugh!

Of COURSE I am tormented by my cruel, fascist government not allowing me to visit Cuba since any sane person would have Havana right at the top of his list of "Fun Places for a Summer Holiday Without Spending a Fortune!" Rack up another win for El G. and the Sandalistas! You da men!

On the other hand, take a close look at that famous Che portrait: That dude was definitely on drugs, I tell you! Kim Jong Il is another one: always with the dark glasses, his pupils must be just pinpoints. Probably on Ibogaine, that one. Commie scum!

Very magnanamous of you chuks.

It takes a brave man to admit his torment and lack of comprehension of the situation.

Especially on a public forum consisting of his peer group.

Big hand for chuksie :D Group hug:D

That tickling sensation in the back of your throat? No, you aren't coming down with laryngitis; you swallowed a fishing lure.

Anyway, wanna see my i.d. from the American Association of Intellectuals? I keep it at home somewhere, probably in there with the papers for my RED tractor. I can look it up for you if you want.

If Fidel really has $900 million stashed away would that make him a pseudo-Marxist? Somehow I find myself liking him better for being possibly just a big, bearded, old fraud. He better get a move on, though, if he wants to spend that money. That is one hell of a lot of rice, beans and chicken!