Height records

[Ruperts Trooper]

Wikipedia contains an unconfirmed reference to an RAF Lightning intercepting a U-2 on exercise at 88,000 ft. RAF Canberra crews always maintained that no RAF fighter could match their height.

Just what was the true ceiling of the Canberra PR9?

[perkin]

If you have a read of the article below comparing the lightning to the F-15, it mentions an altitude record held by a Russian Ye-266 of 37,650m, which by my calculation is about 123492ft...!

http://www.******************************/lightning/memories.html

It also mentions that the author had flown a lightning up to 88000ft over Saudi...

[Ruperts Trooper]

It's the Canberra PR9 ceiling I'm trying to find. If they could outfly (height-wise, not in any other way!) the Lightning, presumably 90,000ft plus?

I know it was classified but I'm too old to wait until 2036 for information release under the 30 year rules.

[Pontius Navigator]

RT, not that I know of but then, what do I know?

[Fitter2]

I will dig out my copy of Tony 'Bugs' Bendall's autobiography, but I seem to recall him telling of intercepts of U2 by acclerating to Mach 1.3 at 45,000ft and zoom climbing to RedTop acquisition range. There were also tales of Lightning pilots at the end of their (aircraft, not pilots) service life having a squadron competition for max zoom altitude.

[Logistics Loader]

49,009 ft in a glider... !!!! (not me i hasten to add)

does that count ??? as a record lol

[mr fish]

for the record, what altitude is required to gain astronaut wings?. i heard the x15 test pilots qualified.

[speeddial]

Around 215,000 ft for space wings.

[Dan D'air]

Have been at 20,320ft non-flying, anyone guess where??

[plebby 1st tourist]

Kilimanjaro?

[Dan D'air]

Colder.............

[Farmer 1]

There were also tales of Lightning pilots at the end of their (aircraft, not pilots) service life having a squadron competition for max zoom altitude.

Total thread drift, I know, but it reminds of another story of a retiring pilot's last flight. He towed targets for a living, and he returned with a knot in the cable.

[Tigs2]

Dan

is that why it should be called Danali ?:)

Denali in Alaska, thats my guess:ok:

[John Farley]

There may be some confusion on this thread between the ceiling (as high as an aircraft will go before the rate of climb falls to zero) and the height to which a type has been zoomed. The Lightning was a good zoomer the PR9 a good climber. I would not have thought that a PR9 could be climbed even as high as Walter Gibb managed on 9 Aug 55 when he coaxed a stripped down B2 with Olympus engines up to 65,889 feet.

[harrogate]

I read that the U2 pilot was shocked to see the Lightning at 88,000ft.

Especially because it appeared from above him.

[RETDPI]

I'm in no position professionally to comment on your suppositions, but the practical PR9 limitation as I understood it, in later years, was due to the non-utilisation of full "astronaut" type pressure suits. I gather the biomedical limit was around 40k ft.
Lighting maximum height problems -again, I stress, very much second hand crew room chat, did involve friction heating /stress concerns with the canopy generated on the way back down.
As both types are well out of service, perhaps some of those with first-hand knowledge might now be in a position to speak?

[acepilotmurdock]

Yeah i grew up in Saudi and the author of that comparison was a man called Brian Carrol, who sadly died a few years ago. He was a family friend and think i still have is old bonedome. He told the family that he had been to some serious altitudes in the lightning, maybe not space wings but not far off me thinks.

[harrogate]

Read lots of stuff by and about Brian.

He never seemed too bothered about any ramifications for telling folks what he got up to in the old Lightnings.

Lovely chap.

[sitigeltfel]

There is a very good section on the Lite / U2 intercepts trials (Operation Trumpet) in the book "Lightning from the Cockpit" by Peter Caygill. The height of 88,000 was never attained during the trials, which took place in Oct 1962.

Quote;

The best result was obtained with an acceleration to 1.7M at 36,000ft and then a constant Mach climb to 45,000ft followed by a 25 degree zoom climb. Using this method a height of 68,700ft was reached. It was felt that this figure was unlikely to be exceeded with the Lightnings limited Mach number at that time (1.7M).

The same article claims the figure of 87,800ft was achieved by Flt Lt Dave Roome of 74Sqn out of Tengah in an F6 while doing a PI against an RB-57F on 23rd Oct 1968.

An interesting aside to the U2 trials was that oneof the spy planes went a bit off course leading to the chasing Lite planting a sonic boom over Edinburgh. I bet that rattled the china cups in Morningside!

[Riskman]

Server not found

Firefox can't find the server at www.******************************..../memories.html

:confused:

Can we have the url in longhand, please.

[Ruperts Trooper]

The same article claims the figure of 87,800ft was achieved by Flt Lt Dave Roome of 74Sqn out of Tengah in an F6 while doing a PI against an RB-57F on 23rd Oct 1968.

Which was it, a U-2 or an RB-57F? The RB-57F was a Canberra derivative.

Ceiling for Canberra B2 was somewhat lower than PR9 with bigger wing area, more powerful engines and different crew arrangements.

Canberra PR9 is only 18 months out of front line service.

[perkin]

Cant for the life of me work out whats going on with this damn url I'm trying to post, but its not for working.

Here it is in bits...if someone would like to let me know how to post it as a link, please pm me and I'll update this thread accordingly. Hope its actually of interest to a few readers after all of this!!

www thunder-and-lightnings co uk/lightning/memories html

Just add dots to the spaces... :}

[anotherthing]

Perkin -

I don't think you are doing anything wrong... it may be that there is protection on the link to stop people using it without permission (just a thought).

However, it is a great website - thanks for posting the details :ok:

[perkin]

You're most welcome! Glad someone else has enjoyed browsing through it as much as I did. Some interesting tales of the 'good old days' in there :)

[scorpion63]

"Ceiling for Canberra B2 was somewhat lower than PR9 with bigger wing area, more powerful engines and different crew arrangements."


I know of a B2 that flew higher than a PR9, 70,310ft August 1957 restricted not by engine power as it had a Double Scorpion rocket pack in the bomb bay, but Vne and Vmin convergence. Only airframe modifications were vortex generators on the wings. Napier Scorpion Canberra, WK163, still flying out of Coventry, well it will be when we get a new engine.

[teeteringhead]

Managed 43,250 (on 1013) in an unpressurised JP 4 with no pressure breathing (but 100% O2) on the solo high level trip as an irresponsible stude in about 1969.

Lots of ice, lots of JPT, not a lot of IAS........

Felt ill for days and still only came second in the course contest......:(

Thank the Lord for helicopters .... praps that's why my nose now bleeds above 1500' ........ ;)

[Warmtoast]

With all the brute force of modern jets climbing or zoom-climbing to 70-80,000ft as reflected in this thread, it’s sobering to consider what happened nearly 71 years ago with just 500hp, as reported in “Time Magazine’s” 12th July 1937 issue:


“Swain to Pezzi to Adam is not a baseball double play, but the briefest way of describing a contest which has lately raged in the sub-stratosphere between England and Italy. Last autumn England’s Squadron Leader F. D. R. Swain set a new world airplane altitude record of 49,944 ft. in a Bristol monoplane (TIME, Oct. 12). Two months ago Italy’s Colonel Mario Pezzi boosted the record to 51,361 ft. in a Caproni biplane (TIME, May 17). Last week England’s Lieutenant M. J. Adam flew Pilot Swain’s Bristol 138 (one Bristol Pegasus radial engine of 500 hp) to 53,937 ft.”


The Bristol 138 takes off from Farnborough
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Image4.jpg

Flight Lieutenant M. J. Adam and pressure suit
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Image3_746x600.jpg

Stencilled Emergency Instructions

Open Cockpit
Slash Suit With Knife in
Cockpit to Give Pilot Air.
Cut Away All Straps
Remove Pilot from Aircraft
Remove Suit as in Instructions
Carried by Pilot. Or Cut
Away if Necessary.
Keep Pilot Warm When Suit
Has Been Removed
Get a Doctor

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Image5.jpg

[Dan D'air]

Anyone else notice the wrist action going on in picture 3? Perhaps thats why he was in the RAF................




PS., Tigs.....Spot on mate!!

[Beatriz Fontana]

Is it just me or does Wg Cdr Woodhouse look like Raymond Baxter?

[Dan D'air]

Intriguing Beatriz, Its not just you. Did you also notice that the chap on the right in picture 2 looks like Alfred Hitchcock?

[Beatriz Fontana]

He does as well!

[Dan D'air]

And that the fellow putting on the pretend firemans outfit in the same picture looks like a cross between Alexander Armstrong and Frank Whittle?

[Beatriz Fontana]

It is, tho, innit?

[Dan D'air]

Do you think that he got those trousers in Camden?

[Beatriz Fontana]

They's well hardcore. Awesome trousers, but you gotta wear uniform!

[Dan D'air]

I was wondering if that is indeed a pressure suit or if it's in fact a coverall for painting his aircraft yellow.

[Beatriz Fontana]

Nah, the Wg Cdr wouldn't let him paint his Bristol yellow... harsh!

[Al R]

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/Image3_746x600a.jpg

"Well, thats about it sir - I hope you've enjoyed your visit and the French bread demonstration."

"Absolutely Corporal, and now I can certainly see how being a firefighter keeps the old volleyball skills on top form too."

---

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/Image3_746x600b.jpg

"I wish to god I had never started this gynecological course."

Edit then!

"Of course my eyes are closed! Ok. Er.. cod?"

"If dad thinks this is how I'm going to spend the rest of my working life, my name isn't James Herriot"

[Dan D'air]

Al R,

Shouldn't that be "I wish to cod................."?

[Warmtoast]

A few more images related to the 1936/37 height records. These are relevant to the earlier 49,000ft height record set by Sqn Ldr F. D. R. Swain.

First a query. A cockpit cutaway of the Bristol 138 shows an instrument called a "Statascope". It was fixed above the instrument panel and is visible in the photo with the stencilled emergency instructions. What does a "Statascope" do?


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/PressCutting3_800x360-1.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/PressCutting2_800x343-1.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/PressCutting1_800x324-1.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BristolAd_427x600-1.jpg

[Satellite_Driver]

Re the question on Astronaut Wings, the USAF awarded them to X-15 pilots who had exceeded 50 statute miles (264,000 ft). The current definition of the edge of space seems to be 100 km, or around 328,000 ft, and this is what the criteria for the X-Prize was. It's no coincidence that SpaceShipOne's registration was N328KF...

[dum_my]

...or that it did the deed on 4th October.

[John Farley]

thawes

Googling statascope gives:

Definition of Statascope
an instrument used for indicating or recording small changes in barometric pressure or in the altitude of an aircraft

JF

[Warmtoast]

JF

Thanks for the definition.

Thinks - next time I MUST use google before committing words to posts!