15k....

[Felix Saddler]

Hi realistically is it possible to complete PPL,ATPL theory and CPL within a budget of 15k? I understand the hour building comes between the theory and cpl i'm just trying to break things up a little. It seems the building and IR are the two major players in the equation, would a loan cover either?

Thanks,

FS

[AlphaMale]

JAA Multi-IR will cost you over £12k alone in the UK. Add to that the ATPL exams and material of around £2,500/£3,000 and your budget has gone.

You still need to do the PPL/Night/Hour building and a CPL :bored:

I'd say No.

[Felix Saddler]

Hi, yes i understand the IR is a hefty chunk of the budget hence me asking if i could get a loan to cover it? What i was asking was whether 15k would pay for ppl, atpl-theory and cpl? The rest IR,ME, and hour building i would need a loan for. Although i'm thinking about doing an FI course before IR + ME to see if i can get a job as an instructor for a few years? Wise?

[AlphaMale]

Ahh, Yes wise choice and the same as what I am looking to do.

PPL ~ £6K
Night ~ £800
ATPL ~ £3K
Hour Building ~ £?,???.??
CPL ~ £5k

I guess hour building could be done pretty cheap in a 152 as compared to a 172/Arrow etc and possible cheaper in Spain/US.

Spain
C152 - 115 euros per hour so £8,500 for 100hrs PIC

USA
C150/152 - $85 per hour so £4,350 for 100hrs PIC

I'll probably be looking to do my FIC after my CPL as opposed to going straight to the Multi-IR.

[Philpaz]

PPL ~ £6K = thats pretty much the lowest standard cost in the UK and the cost of the test i would realistically say around £7000 for the PPL

Night ~ £800 ~ ok

If you shop around you can get your PPL for way way under those estimates, also you can do your night as part of your 45 hours to keep the cost down.

Hour building might work out cheaper if you buy in to a group, you can then sell your share to recover you training funds, alternatively try a non equity group (like the one I'm in).

Its all about looking around for the best deals, a lot of the advice on here is either go to the big 4 or go abroad but i've found plenty of ways to stay in UK and get it all done at cost.

As far as ATPL study goes, you get what you pay for in most cases. If you have the time, understanding and self discipline then do distance (and keep working for those all important training funds).

[AlphaMale]

£6,000 for a PPL seems like a good enough budget, depends where you want to do it of course. I am looking to do my PPL in the same school as I'd like to do my CPL/IR to get used to AC's / Instructors / Management / Flight Paths etc.

I have seen PPL's in the UK for as low as £4,000 for 45hrs ... if you take the time to search the small clubs.

The hour building can be done cheaper, I've seen a few people here saying/Advertising that £70ph wet on a C152 is possible in the UK!!! Having a share would be beneficial too. As the saying goes "There's more than one way to skin a cat".

ATPL with BGS
Module 1 material is £1300
Module 2 material is £800

Exam fees charged by the CAA. The fees in the UK are £62 per paper.

Module 1 exams = £496
Module 2 exams = £372

£2,968 all in if you get first time passes (I think BGS is considered one of the most expensive ... but worth the money apparently).

I'm still unsure of the FI pay, I have asked but nobody gives a straight answer due to the weather having a big effect on pay. Some get £250 a month then a good pay per hour, some get £10 a day for turning up and a good hourly pay, some get £500 a month then a low hourly pay or don't get paid extra until they achieve over 20hrs per month.

At a guess I'd say the FI's are getting paid £17k pa? Take home of £250 a week?

[IRISHPILOT]

Hello there,

How can ANY of us say how big a loan you will get?

more research is needed:

The PPL is lost if it is a JAA PPL upon gaining the CPL, so why not do it elsewhere (like FAA) for a lot less? (but factor the flight + accommodation in). People do not usually pay extra for night qualifications, they are part of the PPL (though I have heard they charge extra for this in the UK).

If, for sentimental reasons, you want a JAA PPL, you can still get it for a lot less than 6000k in Euroland or east of there...

The groundschool (like BGS) can be done in other countries for a lot less and if an MEIR is that much in the UK and if money is an issue, why not get it elsewhere?

Depending on how many hours you want to build it may not be much cheaper going abroad only for that (flights, transport, accommodation).

good luck! IP

[Philpaz]

PPL


45 Hours instruction in our well equipped aircraft
Groundschool for all pre-flight and post flight briefs and de-briefs
First attempt at each of the seven written examinations
Radio Telephony practical examination
Skills test fee
PPL Starter pack which includes a logbook, checklist, kneeboard and series 1 of the Air Pilot's Manual by Trevor Thom.C152 - £5099 including all landing fee's.

Hour Building

100 HoursC152 - £5420

CPL/ME

20 hours SE
8 hours MEC152/PA28 - £5000

All this totals just over the 15k budget, but you would need ATPL's and all your eqpt on top.

These prices are from the school i attend and are very reasonable.
I think 15k is a bit too little to get everything your after but if you manage it, let me know!

[Philpaz]

Oh and forgot to mention, its in the UK (north)

[Felix Saddler]

CBR, I am not saying i can get to CPL with 15k, i'm only asking whetehr 15k would cover the cost of a ppl, theory and cpl. I am aware the hour building comes between the theory and CPL and costs a fair bit, as i said in my initial post so would hope to cover this with a loan.

PPL = 6k?
Theory = 3k?
CPL = 6k?

Total = 15k? Realistic?

Hourbuilding = 8/9k?
FI = 7k?

Total = 16k = loan?

[Shiver me timbers!]

The prices Philpaz states are from Blackpool Flight Academy*.

http://www.flightacademyblackpool.com/

* I have no affiliation with BFA.

[Adios]

Felix and AlphaMale,

I haven't read the whole thread yet so maybe in the last half someone covered this point, but...

You must have 250 hours to start an FI rating. It seems more sensible to take the ME and IR during that first 250 hours. You'd make a far more valuable instructor with those quals that you would with 200 hours of hour building, which might actually help you get the FI job. After all, you'll be competing for FI jobs against people who have an fATPL and an FI. Who knows, you might even get lucky and get an FO job and not need the FI.

[IRISHPILOT]

CBR, you are spot on. As the original poster is not looking to go abroad, just a quick one to confirm what I meant. I did most of what's below myself:

An ICAO PPL is all you need to commence further training in JAR land. So there will be no conversion, making it cheaper for you and you'll have another licence (rather than giving up a JAR PPL upon gaining the CPL). And there is no cost for a night qualification (which may easily cover travel expenses).

And if you are abroad already, staying another 2 or 3 weeks to build hours, will set you back a smaller amout, as no extra travel is involved (thinking about it, you can travel to Prague for under 50GBP...).

If you do training for the CPL upwards in another JAR country, you'll have a choice of places that do it in English, ranging from Ireland (not cheap) to Malta, Iceland and Croatia (who use Bristol Ground School) to the US (not sure about Canada and Australia). Again, factoring acommodation into it may not make it a viable option. (Make sure you don't pay more than 100GBP for the JAA initial class 1!)

JAA ME IR training is around 150GBP here (though not sure what it is in the UK) and we generally do not have examiner fees. - Remember the ME and the IR are ratings, not licences, and as such can be added if passed in any JAR country even to a UK licence.

None of the above requires any kind of conversion (of course, you can swap your JAA state of issue to the UK, which is a paper exercise).

cheers IP

[coodem]

CATS do the PPL and the ATPL theory for £6500, then you would just need to pay for the exams, hour building, CPL and IR. Joining a non equity group can get you cheap flying. I pay £67 wet for a PA-28, with free base landings and £60 wet for a Katana with free base landings.

[clanger32]

None of this really applies to me, but one thing that does strike me as perhaps a prudent point here to consider....there has been a lot recently about what the airlines are looking for and how these goalposts are changing to be more one-stop-modular if that's the route you wish to go.

I have no idea on the costs, as it's not the route I'm taking, but it would seem sensible to weigh up the opportunity cost of doing the training bit by bit at the cheapest FTO you can find, against the [potential] additional difficulty you may have in finding a commercial job by so doing.

I've said it before and no doubt I'll say it again, professional flight training is NOT cheap WHICHEVER route you choose. Just be very aware that spending £30k to get an fATPL by the cheapest route you can find can suddenly turn out to be much more expensive than other options with perhaps a higher up front cost if you can't get a job in the same time frame.

Personally and for the little it's worth, if I were going to go modular, I'd look to spend a little extra cash and go with one provider and someone fairly well known....I was quite tempted by Stapleford personally...

[Philpaz]

Personally and for the little it's worth, if I were going to go modular, I'd look to spend a little extra cash and go with one provider and someone fairly well known.

Thats fine, and if you want to jump straight in to an airliner its probably sound advice, however, if you want to be an FI then it matters much less, and i would imagine as your hours go up it matters less and less where you got the first 200.
I'm going to continue in my job for a few more years yet and hopefully do some FI work (once qualified) part time. I've got the aviation bug big time reccently and am really enjoying my flying. Buzzing around the sky in a 152 is so much fun, i cant compare it to a 737 because i've never flown one but cant imagine it being as much fun so whats the rush?
I dont hate my current job and i earn more than most captains so am happy to fund my training as i go and in Flight academy blackpool i have found a cheap, yet very good school, that offers everything i need. They even have a DA42 being delivered this month.

Oh and other than me training there, i have no affiliation with F.A.B

[clanger32]

I should add, that I do fully agree with the replies to my first post. The airlines are not the end goal for everyone and if that's you, then the logic of perhaps spending a little more may not be so....errr....logical.

However I would suggest that most people probably do harbour desires of airline work, for the simple reason that the pay there is better than for most other aviation jobs and that not many of us are in the fortunate situation of working only to keep ourselves out of trouble....most of us have mortgages, wives/husbands, families etc to keep.

On this basis, assuming that more money is better for most people, then you need to give yourself the best chance of earning well as quickly as possible.

For example, Let's assume that if you spent £50k as opposed to £30k you could land a RHS job in 6 months [after qualifying] as opposed to 36 months. Let's also assume as an FI you could earn £18k (seems about right) and as a FO on a jet £30k. By the time both these [theoretical] guys had got a job [on jet], the one who spent £50k up front has spent £50k, but earned £75k gross, giving a net positive of £25k. The one who went FI'ing has spent £30k and earned £54k, giving a net of £24k.

I know this is hypothetical and may not hold water on close examination, but from this analyses, would it not appear that spending a little more has meant that over three years you'd be £1k better off, not to mention the two and a half years added seniority and the salary differential that would bring?

Granted, some people may not be able to spend any more, in which case they have no choice. Some may spend minimally and walk straight into a RHS job and yet more may never want that RHS, however, all I'm advocating is looking at the wider picture - far too many people on this board seem intent only on looking at the headline cost and thus the cheapest option. As mentioned earlier in this thread, albeit on a different subject - the headline cost is very rarely the true full cost....

caveat emptor etc! (P.S. Philpaz and CBR, I suspect you already fully appreciated where I'm coming from!)

[Philpaz]

P.S. Philpaz and CBR, I suspect you already fully appreciated where I'm coming from!


Yes, I went to the OAT seminar and was impressed. The CTC way is more impressive still and if you want the fastest way to the RHS then Integrated (in my oppinion, not wanting to get the Int/Mod debate going again) is the way forward.
I'm just not in that much of a rush, much rather work/earn and do it slowly building my hours and more importantly, experience as i go. Do some FI work and take some jollys away with the lads in the schools Aztec, maybe even do some work abroad in small twins.
At the end of the day (again in my oppinion), flying is a passion and i think that i'll have more fun in the smaller AC than i will in the big ones. Aslong as i dont leave it too late to move across i'll be ok.
I'm in no rush to hand my hard earned over to anyone, especially not RYR. I have to say though flying the 75 from LBA is the end goal for me (the dream if you will).
Just like to have some fun on the way there and why not. I think for people that are in a rush, Integrated is a proven system that works. I dont even mind those that pay there own TR. I would if it got me where i wanted to be.
At the end of the day Integrated is more likely to get you a job but it costs more. So if you analyze it, then what is the difference between the guy that pays integrated money over modular and the guy that pays for a TR over those that wont? Both sets of people are paying more money for greater job prospects aren't they? And it is only an initial layout because you (as a rule) only pay for your first TR so it is an initial training cost. If the Mod guy buys a TR and spends the same as the Int guy in total training costs then they are the same beast. It could be argued that Integrated schools are ruining the industry as much as SSTR's because they are both putting the airline job out of the reach of your average Joe.
Anyway i'm whittering on and taking this thread way off its heading.

Just to conclude, if you have the money and its going to get you closer to your goal then why not? There are a lot of Green eyed monsters out there that will try and belittle you for it but just smile down at them from the RHS :ok: