Transco/National Grid UK

[all points north]

I have noticed that Transco are using Jet Rangers again , have they stopped using the 333?

[Whirlygig]

Well, they might have stopped using one since it had a little mishap.

G-TAMA (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=311982&highlight=sheffield)

Cheers

Whirls

[all points north]

I have also seen a long ranger and twins working these Transco flights, no wonder my gas bills are going up.What mishap did they have with the 333:bored:

[Whirlygig]

Clicky on my linky and all will be explained.

Cheers

Whirls

[Whirlygig]

Transco certainly existed; it's just that they;re now called national Grid UK. :rolleyes:

And Transco (as was) had/have a contract with TAMS to provide the pipeline inspections.

Cheers

Whirls

[996]

Whirlygig:
And Transco (as was) had/have a contract with TAMS to provide the pipeline inspections.

You say 'had/have' what does that mean? Have they lost the contract and nobody noticed or are you saying that they are to do so soon?

669

[TiPwEiGhT]

TAMS still have the contract as far as I know, just shame the 333's are about as much use as a poke in the eye. Why on earth did they get rid of the JetBangers...?

[Whirlygig]

No, I'm covering my arse in case some wiseguy picks me up for it! I am not entirely sure of the contract status but would have thought it should be up for renewal fairly soon!

Why did they get rid of the Jet Rangers? Sterling had the contract and used B206s. Then TAMS got the contract and decided to use 333s (being the first in the country). At the time, the two companies were not under the same common ownership as they are now.

Cheers

Whirls

[on21]

The 333 was over Hutton/Preston and went into Blackpool Thursday 6/03/08.

[Whirlygig]

I think TAMS have a few 333s; do you know which one? Is G-TAMA back on line?

Cheers

Whirls

[on21]

G-TAMD apparently on Thursday over us.

[Brilliant Stuff]

I also heard a R44 being used for pipeline in the last month or so.

But then again I might have misheard, which is possible.

[Bravo73]

I also heard a R44 being used for pipeline in the last month or so.

But then again I might have misheard, which is possible.

I think that Patriot use an R44 for another pipeline contract. Or at least, they used to...

[Brilliant Stuff]

Well since Cranfield is in our patch I could have heard correctly then, cheers.

[DeltaFree]

I guess TAMS using the new 333 offered a much lower tender than any of the 206 operators. Would be interesting to hear from Transco/National Grid side if the service has been as good. Does it really make much difference what helo is used for an aerial survey? So long as you have a decent cruise speed and range with 2 or 3 on board I guess the type makes little difference. Was it not a 206 from Tams that disintegrated in midair prior to the 333s coming online?

[paco]

"So long as you have a decent cruise speed and range with 2 or 3 on board I guess the type makes little difference."

That isn't enough, sadly. I think the 206 is the absolute minimum machine to be used on such work (midair dinsintegrations excepted!), although you do fly a little higher on pipelines than you do with 11 Kv powerlines. Firstly, the high inertia blades give you a better chance in a low level auto, and secondly its ability to withstand a roll downhill without injuring the occupants, which was one of the original military specifications. This is the reason for the 500's shape, as it was part of the same competition.

Phil

[Brilliant Stuff]

I have seen the Pipeline R44 again. It's a red one.

I know of a WPD pilot having an engine failure in MFMF and thanks to the inertia of the rotors of the 206 he managed to get over some woodland first before landing the machine.

[quichemech]

Did he? When was that then?

[paco]

It wa some years ago - the tail boom is still in the hangar somewhere. The machine was subject to an air test by somebody not within the company and the engine was affected, hence the failure a week or so later. Well done to PM for getting it on the ground.

Phil

[md 600 driver]

brilliant stuff

I know of a WPD pilot having an engine failure in MFMF and thanks to the inertia of the rotors of the 206

whats is a wpd pilot and mfmf ?

[paco]

WPD = Western Power Distribution - a powerline survey company based in Bristol (aka SWEB, or South Western Electricity Board). They operate 2 AS 355s and 2 206s - G-MFMF is one of the latter.

I mentioned rolling down a hill in terms of survivability, something that I doubt would be probable in a Schweizer or anything of similar build. I agree, rolling down a hill is to be avoided, but if the machine can do that, you are more likely to survive a lesser event! The 206 would be the minimum standard, but although the 350/355 would be nicer on the back, the observers simply don't see as much out of them.

Phil

[normalbloke]

I can't ever remember inspecting a pipeline through the front window anyway!
My preferred choice was to offset.

[paco]

All of the observers at WPD preferred the 206 over the 355 for lookout purposes.

"most of whom have not achieved the the necessary skills for one reason or another"

These guys pretty much know what they are doing.

"[considerably lower than civil operators need to do]"

We were as low as that.

"I would think it is all about map reading technique competency and airframe positioning."

Navigation is only 10% of it. You are looking at poles flashing by every two seconds or so, inspecting them for seven major fault groups, from top to bottom, front and back, so you have to turn your head. normalbloke has it right - you must look out of the door as well. The seat in the 350/355 is further away from the door than in the 206.

Phil

[paco]

Indeed I was - best wishes to you too! :)

Phil

[biggles99]

Quote:
"I know of a WPD pilot having an engine failure in MFMF and thanks to the inertia of the rotors of the 206"

It is is a strange thing when we pilots are grateful for blade inertia to help us when the engine quits, but we don't comment on the fact that inertia was only needed because the engine had quit.

I've got over 2000 hours TT, mostly on piston engines, but a couple of 100 on turbines.

and engine failures? Just the one, on a 206, of course.

give me a reliable engine any day, and I'll accept a reduced blade inertia.

Big L's

[902Jon]

The whole British Gas / Transco pipeline patrol has been a pain in the neck to B Gas for years. There is a statutory requirement for the pipes to be patrolled where practicable every two weeks, and of course this is expensive. However because of the amount of annual hours flown for 4 helicopters nationally it has always been a very low bid by the contractor as it is considered a "bread & butter" contract. The revenue turned over allows the contractor to cover a huge part of his engineering & administrative overheads, and therefore allows any other charter/contract income to be much more profitable.

The contract historically required the helicopter to be turbine powered, able to carry up to 3 observers on-board and be capable of 3 hours of patrolling before refuelling. It was also required to patrol at 80 Kts and position as fast as possible to the patrol region (positioning to the patrol region was non-revenue). With patrols of up to 30 hours in 5 days (FTL exemptions required) the pilot and main observer clearly needed to take a reasonable amount of kit (overnight stuff, navbag, O.S maps etc) and so the Bell 206 was really the only suitable type for the contract, given the low D.O.Costs and good reliability. With approximately 4000 hours flying per year, even with flying rates of less than £250/hour the turnover was still good and a minimal profit was achievable.

However Transco being a good privatised national company need to reduce costs continually to maximise profits and so when the contract was up for renewal, and the 333 was put up as an alternative to the 206, it was irrisistable to the beancounters. As the contract was for the longest term ever (10 years I believe) the investment cost of new machines was viable.

Clearly the 333 is no match for the 206 as it can't carry either the pax or bags previously carried (the advent of quality moving map GPS and small Data terminals has however negated this requirement largely). The overnight bags are strapped onto the spare seat in the cockpit.
The patrols are now much shorter as the 333 only has a 2 1/4 hour endurance before the fuel light comes on. The time on the ground is longer as the aircraft has to be shut-down each time as the rotors are too low for hot refuelling.
The reliability is also an issue as the 333 is designed as a light helicopter for private use and not for the high intensity flying of patrol work. Compare this to the 206 built for U.S military specs.

Transco & TAMS have got what they have bought & paid for.

[paco]

You couldn't have expressed a modern malaise more eloquently!

Phil

[902Jon]

A.Agincourt
I apologise if my tone appeared bitter in my previous post. I have absolutely no reason to be bitter having left patrol flying many years ago. I do however speak from previous experience of doing the job having flown some 3000hours on BGas & BPA pipeline patrols on and off over 6 1/2 years.
I did state 'historically' as I was building a picture of how the contract has evolved from what it was, to how it is now. I did not state however that the patrols were 30 hours long. What I did say was that the patrols could be up to 30 hours. Two of the eight patrols (4/week, 2 week cycle) were long. The South & South West region which I flew often was nominally 29.5 hours (including positioning time). The FTL exemption allowed 30 hours in 5 days and a max of 20 in any consecutive 3. To achieve this number of hours in the winter months with short daylight hours required rotors running refuels where possible. BGas had a very tight contract that invoked financial penalties if the patrols were uncompleted for reasons other than weather. The pressure was always on to complete as early in the week as possible so that the engineers had a sporting chance of completing the frequent servicing requirements (50hr every 2 weeks, 100hr every 4 weeks etc).
The BGas / Transco contract has been flown for somewhere around 40 years by various contractors (BEAS, Dollar, Southern Air, Yorkshire Helis') to name a few. They have all been flown by 206 or 500(Southern Air) because of the economy of the types & the contract requirements. I have nothing against new types in any field as long as they can do the job as well & as safely as the type they are replacing.

[Whirlybird]

TAMS liked the 333 for pipeline work as the extremely wide cockpit means there's room for three people in front, plus laptops and other paraphernalia. At least, that's what they told me when I went flying with them to write an article about it, a few years ago.

[normalbloke]

I'd love to see the endurance 3 up,and how cosy it would be in the cockpit!

I did 2500+hours on the Esso/BPA contract as an observer,and the poor old 206 was like a gypsie's wagon with all the required kit.

[all points north]

What is the use of 3 seats where would all your kit go? I also notice that these 333' s seem to arrive at the field later in the week, if they are starting on a Monday and finishing on a Thursday/Friday, Nat Grid are not getting the same service as was when they were using the Jet Ranger's.

[md 600 driver]

is there not 4 seats in the front of a 333

[all points north]

With referance to the 333's they seem to arrive into the field later in the week ? This tells me that these a/c are slower , so are Nat grid/Transco getting the same service as when the contract was with Sterling , who ultimately gives the clearance to use these a/c for the contract, is it the Transco Bean counters (looking to save money ,NOT) or has Nat grid/Transco been poorley advised by someone ? .

[chuteless]

Howya APN
are Nat grid/Transco getting the same service as when the contract was with Sterling ?

You might find that Transco/Nat grid don't really care if the patrols finish later (thats the operators problem)what they are interested in are sighting reports and the amount of missed sightings by aerial patrols.
Funny enough these have reduced from an average of 15 missed sightings a year under the previous watch, to 7 in the last 3 years, an improvement in service it would seem
(Not a bite just a nibble):E

Chuteless

[normalbloke]

15 missed sightings in one year?That's extremely low given the KM of pipeline inspected.
Was it Wales somewhere that a complete house had been put up on the pipeline?Or was that folklore?

[Hilico]

Chuteless, the utility might start caring once CAP371 limits kick in and the operator has covered 5-10% less km in that time than they used to.

[FAAjon]

Think one of these dirverted to Syerston after a engine problem. Black with yellow tops?

[Bravo73]

Black with yellow tops?

Yep. And ugly as sin. :}

[all points north]

The airfield is not important ,i have never seen the crews take long tea breaks during the winter months ,and now they have to shut down to take on fuel with these 333's :)

[FAAjon]

Yup, thats them alright! :}

[that chinese fella]

Hi,

I am slightly confused by the mixing between powerline and pipeline references in this thread.

Can one of the previous posters give an overview of both operations? Am I to understand that 1 company patrols both asset types across the whole of England?

TCF

[chuteless]

"and now they have to shut down to take on fuel with these 333s":=

Not sure what your beef is with Transco/National Grid/TAMS/333s but
Please be careful with with what you say as it is company policy not to do rotors running refuels in any type of aircraft as this does not give the crew a proper rest period, 5.5 to 6 hrs is a long stint to be sat in a backaching machine with a full bladder in one trip.

Thanks

Chuteless

[that chinese fella]

Thanks AA,

How many miles of asset are we talking about?

I would have thought given the built up populus nature of the 'Mother Country' would you have to fly off the line a fair bit.

TCF

[paco]

For Bristol, Plymouth & Wales it's approximately 35886 miles of powerline

Phil

[that chinese fella]

Thanks Phil

What sort of percentage of that 35K miles is 'flyable'?

I guess what I am angling at is that I am suprised that there are the open areas that arent populated by people or livestock that would other otherwise prevent low level aerial survey.

Or maybe the 15 years since my last visit to the old dart has given enough time for everyone to leave the joint. ;)

[Helinut]

Still plenty of green and pleasant land in Blighty - you should not believe everything that the greenies tell you! (the non-electrical ones)

In any case, (as far as pipelines are conerned) the people who install the pipelines make sure they go almost exclusively in open country for safety reasons. If you install them in built up areas the lines have to be MUCH more expensive.

[paco]

It's all flyable - the stuff in the outskirts of the cities is done with the twin.

Phil

[Upland Goose]

Ah - the old gas pipeline days of 30 years ago.

I enjoyed two years of splendid freedom and plenty of flying when Bristow inherited the "Gas" contract from B.E.A.S. In those days we ran 2 Bell 47G5's and 3 Jet Rangers. I alternated each week between types and flew the Whirlwind when needed on the British Aerospace contract.

G-AZBS (Sold to Adam Faith), G-AYMY, G-BBNG, G-BBOS, G-BEWY

Wally Wilding (always wore a white cap) and John Frost AFC were my mentors and they were the best at overland VFR flying bar none - the old adage of knowing the country like the back of one's hand really applied to those guys. It was my greatest honour to give John Frost his last Base Check a month before he retired at 60 a few years ago- a great pair of hands.

Once, one of the Bell 47's went U/S and we pulled the Whirlwind G-AODA (now at Weston Museum) in for day on South East Gas just to complete the week's work !

On another occasion my Bell 47 needed a starter motor at Blackpool and the Bristow HS125 (on crew training) delivered it to me - now that's regal juice for piston engine pilot !

Incidentally, my boss in those days was Henry Boyt and I had the pleasure to oversee his night deck landing recency check (aged 62) a few days ago in the Caspian Sea in a glass cockpit S76C++ - now using one of those would put a hike in your gas bills.

I have the utmost respect for anybody who flies the "Gas" and if any of the newbies get a chance to fly it - grab it!

I was once asked what did it teach me - well I cannot listen to the football results without visualising all the towns to which they relate. Certainly one of the most of the important and enjoyable times for me - it was my first command.

Long may the contract prosper.

Mind you, I'm looking forward to joining ShyTorque in his A109 Grand on Monday down to Battersea - the joys of being a helicopter slut. I'll fly for anyone but the "Gas" gave me the best start ever !

Keep the posts coming

UG:ok:

[ShyTorque]

I hate all these checkrides ;)

[Upland Goose]

Shy

Don't worry - I await your patient guidance when I stumble to keep up with you on Monday!

UG

[all points north]

good old company policy:bored:

cheers

[freerideroj2]

As a current "electrical" observer we do find the B06`s easier to operate with. Not too comfy after a days patrol but vis wise very good. As355`s are needed over built up etc and are really only used then. I read earlier that someone sits off camber...similar to me after a while, just depends on how numb the bum is! Another point is that the jetbangers fly smoother and when your on 11kv all day that does have a benefit!

[PEASACAKE]

Sitting off camber can cause a very bad neck.................

[freerideroj2]

Well not for 5 hours a day certainly! and also definatly not a good position in a crash situation?! but flying 5 hours mon-fri and sometimes w/ends can make you ache a bit!

[B1.3 Drifter]

A few facts rather than asumptions FYI

One of the main reasons for the selection of the 333 was the comfort factor. As has been pointed out, the 206 is not the most back and bum friendly machine. The 333 in comparison is a very comfortable helicopter to fly in.
Also the visibilty is outstanding and probably up there with the best in the industry.
Yes the 333 does have '4' seats across the front but you would struggle (alot) to fit 4 grown adults in there, the centre seat (for 2) is quite small and really only comfortable for one adult (or 2 small children - not applicable here)
One of the guys (at least) at Transco who was involved with the selection process of awarding the contract was very much in favour of the 333 and this may well be one of the reasons that the contract shifted to TAMS in favour of Stirling who had put forward the 206 again.
Yes the 333 is a little slower than a 206 but Transco recommend a patrol speed of 80knts anyway, which the 333's are more than capable of, unless you have a strong head wind. Also, on a good weather week the 333's consistantly complete there patrols on Wednesday evening (short patrol) or Thursday giving the maintenance guys enough time to complete any servicings before the weekend.

The 333 was an unknown aircraft that had some great advantages and at the time one would be forgiven for thinking that it would be a safe bet, Schweizer do have a reasonably good record.

Unfortunately the 333's airframe is not up to the task. The fact is the fuselage is consrtucted of very lightweight material which does not stand up to the stress that it is subject to. Structural problems are the main cause of downtime on this aircraft. There has been the need for a number of strenghtening mods and TAMS has done a comendable job of sorting them.

The fault that caused TAMA's mishap was a seized geabox that had recently returned from overhaul. A fault that could occur on any aircraft

After all that I would say that when the 333 is flying, it's a great little aircraft.

[quichemech]

The Mole as you put it is not with "Grid", it would seem fairly obvious that he/she is employed by Tams.

As to refering to "Grid" surely that would mean "National Grid" An Electricity company with its own fleet of helicopters that they operate and have maintained at Eurocopter UK. The Gas pipeline contract is a completely seperate issue, am I the only one getting a little confused with the references to Electricity Line inspection and Gas pipeline inspection?:ugh:

I understand they are quite different, the speed of Patrol being the most obvious!

[chuteless]

Hi Upland
That was a great post, I have spoken to the powers that be and would like to extend an invitation to come and visit us here at Sheffield.Maybe go on a patrol sector.
It would be interesting to compare then and now and maybe you could swap some war stories with the guys.
check you PMs for contact details

Cheers

Chuteless

[quichemech]

A.Agincourt.

With regard to the confusion, I was referring to the fact that one set of post refer to the gas pipeline work, then someone else makes reference to Power line work.

Not a particular point of confusion I admit, but possibly a little for the layman who might be reading the thread.

[all points north]

Oh sounds like an invitation you cannot refuse. Is anyone selling tickets to watch the 333 get off the ground with four of you in it? If so I would like two tickets please............... Remember travel lightly flip flops shorts and vests only!! Oh and nil by mouth for 12 hours prior to departure. ;)

[freerideroj2]

I think confusion could come from the different operating parameters, of aircraft, used for pipeline and electicity work. Pipeline (please correct if wrong) 500ft ish and 80kts? Our electricity patrols are (in none built up areas obviously) 30-50ft and 20-35kts (those numbers do change!).

quichemech are YOU interested in coming on a powerline patrol? :)

[PEASACAKE]

Do you need another observer................surely not

[quichemech]

No thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[freerideroj2]

We have a "bedding in" flight you may not be aware of this arvo....join in if you want?

[Brilliant Stuff]

quichemech No thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Me too if the offer was there. Too many of you lot go down compared to the gas guys. [Unfortunately].


Not the WPD lot. They have staying power. :ok: :ok:

[freerideroj2]

absolutely Brilliant Stuff!! :ok:

[freerideroj2]

Too many of you lot go down compared to the gas guys. [Unfortunately].



What did you mean then?

[quichemech]

I think he might be implying that you or some of your WPD collegues
"Smoke bloke"

A tad harsh I think!:=

[quichemech]

There seem to be a lot of posts suddenly missing?

Moderation? Or pulled by the poster?

[Bravo73]

quiche,

A.Agincourt has left the building (and flounced off with all of his posts.) He pulled a similar trick over on the SAR thread.


Hopefully, it will be for good. But, like the last time, I guess that he will just re-register and we'll see him again. :{

[quichemech]

Bravo 73,

Lots of Teddys out of the pram?

[Bravo73]

Bravo 73,

Lots of Teddys out of the pram?

I guess so. Although, maybe he didn't throw them... maybe Mummy just took them off him? :E

[A.Agincourt]

Bravo73 quiche,

A.Agincourt has left the building (and flounced off with all of his posts.) He pulled a similar trick over on the SAR thread.

What ever gave you that idea? Trick? What is so tricky?


Hopefully, it will be for good. But, like the last time, I guess that he will just re-register and we'll see him again. :{

Why would I re register? You seem to have a very oblique view of matters.

Best Wishes
:ugh:

[A.Agincourt]

Bravo73 Quote:
Originally Posted by quichemech http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=4030764#post4030764)
Bravo 73,

Lots of Teddys out of the pram?

I guess so. Although, maybe he didn't throw them... maybe Mummy just took them off him? :EI think you were being asked if you had thrown your familiar out of the pram. It seems that comprehension is in short supply these days. However, You seem intent on making caustic comment about me on every available opportunity and in the past I assumed that that was simply because you were weakly appeasing your familiar. A 'groupie' sort of thing I imagine.

Since I have in no way at all, in the past 'had a go at you' [one might say] then I find it hard to imagine how you might justify your point of view given the last display that you have provided.

A buddy prompted me to read some dross and so I temporarily removed you from my dump box. However, I am afraid that is where you must now go and please do the same to me then you will have no necessity to make inane and un qualified statements, like a familiar.

Best Wishes

G'bye. :yuk:

[Whirlygig]

Why would I re register?

No idea but A. Agincourt is not your first Pprune handle is it? You have done it before!!! :ok:

Cheers

Whirls

[A.Agincourt]

Whirlygig Quote:
Why would I re register?
No idea but A. Agincourt is not your first Pprune handle is it? You have done it before!!!

Isn't it? Really. Ok then please provide other handles to clearly evidence your statement. .....Thought not.

How very odd, just when I was recently commenting to a co worker about characters that go about together like inseparable twins, it happens again. Almost precisely on cue..........................:D:D:D

[Whirlygig]

Hi Psyan, I thought I was on your ignore list!!! :}

Cheers

Whirls

[A.Agincourt]

Whirlygig Hi Psyan, I thought I was on your ignore list!!! :}

Cheers

Whirls

How curious.:ugh:

Later CS

Best Wishes

[quichemech]

Familiars?

Not of into the world of Northern lights are we?

A.Agincourt,

Why did you pull all of your posts?

As an impartial observer, it does appear as if you have had a bit of a hissy fit and thrown your toys out of the pram. Not a caustic remark mearly an observation.

[freerideroj2]

I think a new thread for the A.Agincourt / doppleganger discussion?!

Unless we can rekindle some more pipeline/electricity/aircraft chat?

[A.Agincourt]

quiche: "hissyfit" ? Not at all. So far I do not think there has been a single occasion that would warrant that reaction. No it is not a case of diching Edward at all and I feel mildy ammused that anyone should perceive that. It just goes to show how easily some people can miss interpret and conjour what they wish to beleive.

Best Wishes

[freerideroj2]

".....i before e, except after c....."

[normalbloke]

Wow, that degenerated into not much flipping quickly.