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Nichollg
8th Feb 2008, 00:57
I am a collector of Wing and Brevet of the British Commonwealth and am researching this along with Aircrew Trades of the British, Australian and New Zealand Defence forces
But I am stuck on some dates and trades and was hoping the collective mind of the forum could help me through
British information
What dates were the following trades created?
Parachute Jump Instructor, Air Quartermaster
What dates were the following trades ceased?
Meteorological Air Observer, Air Gunner, Air Bomber
Did the RAF have a Air Crewman or Helicopter Crewman and if so any information eg dates and brevet lettering etc
Any information about the trades and Brevets to do with the AAC and the FAA both current, post WW2 and during WW2
Australian Information
What dates were the following trades created and ended?
Loadmaster, Crewman, Gunner, Crew technical (and the role they preformed), Flight Steward, Fighter controller (flying ground crew I know), Flight Technician (flying ground crew I know), Air Gunner, Air Bomber.
Any information about the trades and Brevets to do with the Australian AAC and the RAN FAA both current, post WW2 and during WW2
New Zealand Information
What dates were the following trades created?
Air Engineer, Air Ordanceman, Air Lodamaster, Helicopter Crewman, flight Steward, Parachute Jump instructor, Air Electronic Operator, Observer
What dates were the following trades ceased?
Air Gunner, Air Bomber
And again any information about the trades and Brevets to do with the New Zealand army pilot when they had them and the RNZN both current, post WW2 and during WW2. Also does any know when the RNZAF changed from RAF style brevet (half wing with no crown) to the current New Zealand style (half wing with crown).
This would help me out greatly. Any photos of uniform or brevet would be great too.
Thanks all for your help

L J R
8th Feb 2008, 01:50
Next question, geometry please.....

Terry McCassey
8th Feb 2008, 04:56
For the time you will wait for a sensible answer here, you might as well try a Google search !

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
8th Feb 2008, 06:36
When I'm back in my treadmill, I'll send you a link to the Air Historical Branch. They are helpful.

minigundiplomat
8th Feb 2008, 10:20
Up until 2003, the RAF brevets were N (Navigator) E (Engineer) AE (Air Electonics Operator) AS (Air Signallar/Linguist) and LM (Loadmaster, including Helicopter Crewman). In 2003, the Airmen Aircrew sustainability study introduced the WSOp (Weapon System Operator) branch encompassing E,AE, AS, and LM branches with a single brevet (letters RAF with a crown). This was also the same brevet as the Weapon Systems Officers (Navigators).

Those who had qualified before 2003 were given the choice, most choose to wear the old brevets, though a few 'company men' adopted the new brevet.

The Australian Army wear a 'L' brevet for Loadmasters and an 'AT' brevet for groundcrew turned Air Technicians (Crew Chiefs).

The RAF also have a brevet for AT's, but only on a single type, and they are not commonly associated with the mainstream aircrew.

Hope this helps

MGD

trap one
8th Feb 2008, 11:49
Along with RAF AT's there are FC's some of which are worn by RAAF qualifiers.
FC standing for Fighter Control. They were first awarded IRC in the late 80's.

Trap One

Wensleydale
8th Feb 2008, 12:09
I thought that FC Brevet was an Italian football team!

Boldface
8th Feb 2008, 12:19
The first FC brevets were awarded to Hamish M and Roger S at Lossie in 1983. The first AT brevets were awarded in 89 at Geilenkirchen.

I understand that a new 'IA' brevet is imminent for Image Analysts on 5 Sqn.

talk_shy_tall_knight
8th Feb 2008, 12:21
Here's some info on the British ones.

http://www.rafweb.org/Badges3.htm

http://www.rafweb.org/Badges3A.htm

Bonza Old Chap
8th Feb 2008, 14:06
Not sure when those brevets started but.. the AEOP one ceased on the 1st July 07 when the trade was merged with the Nav trade. The new brevet is the AW brevet for Air Warfare and then you have AWS - Air Warfare Specialist for NCOs (replacing AEOPs) and AWO - Air warfare Officer which replaced the Nav and AEO. NZ aircrew are still allowed to wear the AE brevet until they convert onto the upgraded Herc or P3

Nichollg
9th Feb 2008, 03:19
"I understand that a new 'IA' brevet is imminent for Image Analysts on 5 Sqn."

Thanks for the heads up on the new IA brevet. I assume that the Image Analyst will be a airbourne groundcrew role any idea on its creation date? Why don't they use
WSOp(EW) for the airbourne component of 5 sqn? They must be similar jobs

Bonza Old Chap
10th Feb 2008, 14:19
Hi. Hadnt heard of the IA brevet. Will be interesting to see if it does get approved. AWS is the new AEOP and they apparently will be trained in all sensors.

charliegolf
10th Feb 2008, 14:28
Was there ever a 'Radio Op Voice' brevet?

I understand they worked on the super sneaky beaky "We won't even confirm it has 2 wings" aircraft type that rhymes with 'Nimrod'.

Oops, check the street for Omegas. I wear an Omega. Never mind.

CG

cum grano salis
10th Feb 2008, 20:00
MGD. Nice try but not quite on target.
The AE brevet was worn by Air Electronic Officers as well as Air Electronic Operators. Air Signallers wore S not AS.

Some still wear them. They are either proud to be what they are.....or lazy!

Melchett01
10th Feb 2008, 20:41
Hadnt heard of the IA brevet. Will be interesting to see if it does get approved

Already approved old boy - and I believe the first ones have now been issued, a good friend of mine being one of the recipients ..... assuming he managed to not get chopped!

The 5 (AC) Sqn jets have 3 IAs down the back and a mission commander, however, I stand to be corrected - the manning changed so much on the rear crew components I still think the crews wonder who is flying on a regular basis!

They are in the same mold as the FC and AT brevets in that they are more mission crew than air crew and have largely been issued to Army IAs rather than RAF aircrews. IIRC that is because the Army wanted some sort of return on their investment in the ac and this was one way of doing it. I also vaguely remember being told that the Sqn 2ic was an Army Major.

Anyway, all the blurb aside, the IA brevets are out there and in use - it is odd seeing Army types wearing RAF brevets!

Oh and no, the IA job on Sentinel is very different to the EW job on Nimrods!

Magic Mushroom
10th Feb 2008, 21:13
Imagery Analyst (IA) brevets will be worn by RAF OSB(Int) and TG14, and Army personnel (predominantly Int Corps) employed as Imagery Analysts on the Sentinel. I understand that it's been approved but the first have not yet been awarded. That event should happen in the next few months.

The Sentinel is crewed by 2 x RAF pilots, 1 x RAF WSO Airborne Mission Controller and 2 x IAs who will be a mix of RAF WSOp(EW) (who will retain their original brevet) and TG14 SNCOs, and Army personnel. A small number of OSB(Int) JOs will also be employed as Airborne Collection Managers on some missions to augment the IAs.

Regards,
MM

minigundiplomat
10th Feb 2008, 21:20
MGD. Nice try but not quite on target.
The AE brevet was worn by Air Electronic Officers as well as Air Electronic Operators. Air Signallers wore S not AS.

Some still wear them. They are either proud to be what they are.....or lazy!


I happily stand corrected. In my defence, the bloke wasn't getting much in the way of help when I posted.

Nichollg
12th Feb 2008, 13:32
Hi. Hadnt heard of the IA brevet. Will be interesting to see if it does get approved. AWS is the new AEOP and they apparently will be trained in all sensors.


Bonzo Old Chap.
IA will be a british brevet not a RNZAF one

Thanks all for you replies. Interesting information on the IA Brevet, Never would find this info on google

trippb
12th Feb 2008, 19:11
Just to add a little factual detail MM.

The TG14 branch does not exist anymore. They have been swallowed up by TG11. But the rest of your para is correct. You have an informed view ol' chap.

Magic Mushroom
12th Feb 2008, 21:00
Good point trippb. I'm afraid my increasingly addled brain struggles to keep up with the latest Service reorganisations, restructuring, rebranding and re badging!!

I must write a strong letter of complaint to HQ 11 Gp, cc PMA at Innsworth.:ok:

Meanwhile, good luck to all the impending IAs straining at the leash to be let loose with Sentinel.

Regards,
MM

Jackonicko
23rd Nov 2015, 14:38
In answer to the Omega-wearing and Omega occupant-worrying Charlie Golf, it is my understanding that while ROVs (Radio Operators Voice) have flown on board Nimrod R, they did not have an aircrew brevet unless and until they became Air Sig RCs.

My understanding is that an ROV, previously known as a SOV (Special Operator Voice), is/was primarily a ground trade, flown occasionally as required. The 51 Squadron ORBs (now open at Kew) tell us, for example that ROVs (presumably Spanish speaking) augmented the normal crew for Operation Acme, during the Falklands war.

I understand that ROV is an anachronistic term, the trade subsequently being known as CSA(V) (Communication Systems Analyst (Voice)) and most recently as Int An (V) - Intelligence Analyst (Voice).

The situation regarding the brevets historically worn by 51's 'back end' crew seems complex. Initially Special Operators wore an S-for-Signaller brevet, while Supervisors could be AEOs, Navs, Signallers or even, in at least one case Observers. From about 1963, those Spec Ops who successfully completed the Advanced Course at Hullavington became AE Ops, and could wear an AE brevet. Some time after that, passing the Advanced Course became a pre-requisite for both Spec Ops and Supervisors, and all Special Ops became AE Ops or AEOs.

Previously, the squadron's linguists wore no brevet, and at some point (I'd love to know when) they were given the now-vacant Signaller brevet. The number of linguists seems to have increased during the later part of the Comet/Canberra era, to a level approaching that in the Nimrod period.

Reports that the squadron's rear crew eventually received a winged pie brevet cannot be confirmed!

camelspyyder
23rd Nov 2015, 16:53
Will the IA brevet be given to all the Reaper crew IA as well?

salad-dodger
23rd Nov 2015, 16:58
Is this a record - 7 years and 9 months between posts?

S-D

Jackonicko
23rd Nov 2015, 17:48
I was just curious about when linguists started using the old Signaller brevet Salad-Dodger, and googled. On finding this thread it seemed a good place to ask, especially as I could finally answer CG's ROV question!

Jackonicko
26th Nov 2015, 17:34
It obviously wasn't!

charliegolf
26th Nov 2015, 18:54
ROV... thanks Jacko.

I was on the staff of AAITC in 87 ish, when a forty something ROV-er from Wyton was made to do the ITC. It was he who introduced me to the term. His ' I won't fail, they need me too much', attitude irritated me somewhat. He wanted something for nothing!

CG

smujsmith
26th Nov 2015, 19:13
Aircrew trades ? With respect, throughout my career I always respected the Aircrew I worked with as occupying a proffesion, not a trade. I happily accept my own status as a tradesman, being by training an ex Halton apprentice Airframe Fitter ! My craft was well defined and boundaries dictated. What member of aircrew was ever restricted by "trade" boundaries ? Any fast jet pilot would have full responsibility the minute he took off on a sortie, as would all other Aircrew branches. Bit of a false argument to me, and it's not an "us and them", in 30 years I looked on the aircrew as the proffesionaly trained operators of the product of my, and my fellow tradesmens output. No disrespect to those who operate RAF aircraft from my opinion, but to be described as tradesmen seems a bit of an insult.

Smudge :ok:

camelspyyder
26th Nov 2015, 19:16
Officers are in branches. Airmen have trades. I've always been happy with that and never felt insulted.

Fluffy Bunny
27th Nov 2015, 08:25
As to the CSA/IntAn or whatever they're called this week having brevets. They don't need one. They already have the mighty "fist of sparks" on their sleves! :ok: