Female Muslim medics 'disobey hygiene rules' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/03/nislam403.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox)

Muslim medical students are refusing to obey hygiene rules brought in to stop the spread of deadly superbugs, because they say it is against their religion.

Women training in several hospitals in England have raised objections to removing their arm coverings in theatre and to rolling up their sleeves when washing their hands, because it is regarded as immodest in Islam. Universities and NHS trusts fear many more will refuse to co-operate with new Department of Health guidance, introduced this month, which stipulates that all doctors must be "bare below the elbow".

The measure is deemed necessary to stop the spread of infections such as MRSA and Clostridium difficile, which have killed hundreds.

Minutes of a clinical academics' meeting at Liverpool University revealed that female Muslim students at Alder Hey children's hospital had objected to rolling up their sleeves to wear gowns. Similar concerns have been raised at Leicester University. Minutes from a medical school committee said that "a number of Muslim females had difficulty in complying with the procedures to roll up sleeves to the elbow for appropriate handwashing". Sheffield University also reported a case of a Muslim medic who refused to "scrub" as this left her forearms exposed.

Documents from Birmingham University reveal that some students would prefer to quit the course rather than expose their arms, and warn that it could leave trusts open to legal action.

Hygiene experts said last night that no exceptions should be made on religious grounds. Dr Mark Enright, professor of microbiology at Imperial College London, said: "To wash your hands properly, and reduce the risks of MRSA and C.difficile, you have to be able to wash the whole area around the wrist. I don't think it would be right to make an exemption for people on any grounds. The policy of bare below the elbows has to be applied universally."

Dr Charles Tannock, a Conservative MEP and former hospital consultant, said: "These students are being trained using taxpayers' money and they have a duty of care to their patients not to put their health at risk. Perhaps these women should not be choosing medicine as a career if they feel unable to abide by the guidelines that everyone else has to follow."

But the Islamic Medical Association insisted that covering all the body in public, except the face and hands, was a basic tenet of Islam. "No practising Muslim woman - doctor, medical student, nurse or patient - should be forced to bare her arms below the elbow," it said.

Dr Majid Katme, the association spokesman, said: "Exposed arms can pick up germs and there is a lot of evidence to suggest skin is safer to the patient if covered. One idea might be to produce long, sterile, disposable gloves which go up to the elbows."

More on Dr Katme and the Islamic Medical Association (http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2008/02/05/the_unrepresentative_dr_katme.php)

When in Rome etc....

And that's before they get anywhere near the alcohol handwash gel!

http://www.islam-watch.org/Mac/Islam_Superstition_Health_issues.htm

The Islamic Medical Association advice should ONLY be valid in Islamic countries . As above ..... when in Rome ...

Just how much more of this multicultural nonsense are we going to tolerate?

About the same as this H & S bull****

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/7227897.stm

It’s ironic....

I live in the most populous Muslim country in the world and all the nurses down my local hospital wear what I call "normal" nurse uniforms (including short sleeves & knee length skirts. Some wear trousers).

I think its safe to presume that the majority of them would be Muslims as per demagraphics.

I reckon it proves that all this boll*cks is down to cultural issues not religion.

Now without causing offence to anyone it seems to me that the most "outspoken" Muslims tend to be from certain South Asian regions that interpret Islam according to historic & cultural practices rather than true Islam.

Oh and by the way. Sack the lot of them!

The answer is very simple, you tell watch the door don't hit yer arse on the way out.
:cool:

all the nurses down my local hospital wear what I call "normal" nurse uniforms your opinion of a "normal" nurses uniform may well be substantially different from mine :E :E :E

Perhaps there's room for some compromise?

Henceforth, Islamic medical personnel will all wear short-sleeves on their right arms so as to allow efficient cleansing (the left hand being reserved for unclean functions, such as examination and treatment of infidels...?! :} :uhoh:

Oh dear, tin hat at the ready:ugh:



One idea might be to produce long, sterile, disposable gloves which go up to the elbows."

This sounds like a man of moderation trying to reach a compromise.

Then he is pissing into the wind,we will never be able to compromise enough for them.
:suspect:

This sounds like a man of moderation trying to reach a compromise.

Muslim urged to shun 'unholy' vaccines

A MUSLIM doctors’ leader has provoked an outcry by urging British Muslims not to vaccinate their children against diseases such as measles, mumps and rubella because it is “un-Islamic”.

Dr Abdul Majid Katme, head of the Islamic Medical Association, is telling Muslims that almost all vaccines contain products derived from animal and human tissue, which make them “haram”, or unlawful for Muslims to take.
Islam permits only the consumption of halal products, where the animal has had its throat cut and bled to death while God’s name is invoked. Islam also forbids the eating of any pig meat, which Katme says is another reason why vaccines should be avoided, as some contain or have been made using pork-based gelatine.............

There is already evidence of lower than average vaccination rates in Muslim areas, reducing the prospect of the “herd immunity” needed to curb infectious diseases such as measles, mumps and rubella.........

Katme said he was bringing the message to Britain after analysing the products used for the manufacture of the vaccines. He claimed that Muslims must allow their children to develop their own immune system naturally rather than rely on vaccines. He argued that leading “Islamically healthy lives” would be enough to ward off illnesses and diseases.

“You see, God created us perfect and with a very strong defence system. If you breast-feed your child for two years — as the Koran says — and you eat Koranic food like olives and black seed, and you do ablution each time you pray, then you will have a strong defence system,” he said. “Many vaccines, especially those given to children, are full of haram substances — human parts, gelatine from pork, alcohol, animal/monkey parts, all coming from the West who do not have knowledge of halal or haram. It is forbidden in Islam to have any of these haram substances in our bodies.”

Katme singled out vaccines such as MMR as ones to avoid, despite doctors saying that they are essential to keep a baby healthy. Others included those for diphtheria, tetanus, acellular pertussis and meningitis..............

The Times:

.........Single sex environment in clinics and in hospitals is the safest and best way forward...( female medical staff with female patients and male medical staff with male patients.)

It Is better also for easier examination, accurate diagnosis and easy treatment. And to avoid false accusation, affairs ,sexual molestation and immoral sex!

Dr A.Majid Katme, London, UK

No, damn it, why should there be a compromise? They want to be doctors in a non-Islamic country. In which case they should abide by the rules that are laid down for all, repeat all, doctors in said country. Compromise in these instances mean that they don't want to abide by the rules so we have to change them. Well tough, sod off and practice in Saudi then. We are 'compromising' all over the place and they are never satisfied. Do these people not understand that actions such as this are breeding resentment? I have found that, mostly, people tend to rub along together through life pretty well, no matter their differences. But when one group is perceived to be demanding preferential treatment, problems start. Actually, I often wonder whether this is exactly what some of these agitators are trying to achieve.

Surely since they're medical students they've not performing part of their duty properly so should mean they fail the course? (Or is that too right wing?)
Only 4 months back there were other muslim medical students refusing to treat patients. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=295221) (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=295221)

As far as I'm concerned if they refuse to complete part of the training, out they go. There are plenty of people wanting their places (Me included). Nobody wants a doctor who won't treat them or hasn't properly washed their hands and arms.

I think we passed resentment a while back Mr Nick.

It worries me that your only giving examples of extreme behaviours, and the argument appears a little one sided, particularly when you consider the vast contribution muslim doctors have made to our NHS over the last 50-60 years.

Using terms such as:

"Them,"

"These people,"

"Agitators,"

"Sod off and practice in Saudi...."

is, in my view, pretty unhelpful, and will solve nothing.

I do have to say, I've worked with many excellent muslim colleagues over the past so many years. Lets face it, no matter how much we knock the NHS, it would have fallen down years ago if it wern't for the contribution muslim doctors have made.

I wasn't aware it was an arguement and I don't accept it's one sided.

I am more than grateful that so many Indian, Pakistani and other 3rd world doctors and nurses have come to work and live here. I in absolutely no way accept that means we have to compromise on medical practices to accommodate their cultural taboos. if they are not comfortable in the country they can leave, if they are not comfortable with the work conditions they can find alternate employment. And that includes medical students who won't wash their hands and supermarket assistants who won't serve customers.

Compromise is not the same thing as appeasement. :=

Slouching towards dhimmocracy (http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/485101/slouching-towards-dhimmocracy-4.thtml)

Back to the middle ages when the church controlled everything. The world was flat as decreed by god. Behead those that held other opinions.

Women are too ugly to show their skin in public. Behead those that hold another opinion...

Talibans...
:uhoh:

My father was a consultant surgeon, and trained alot of surgeons from all manner of Islamic countries, and never came across any of this nonsense. And I am sure that if he had it would have been put to bed pretty quickly, either by the member of staff in question complying, or getting the next flight home.

That said I expect that it is a few idiots with no common sense who shouldn't pass the course anyway. In my experience all doctors and nurses from whatever background are pretty competent, and understand why soap is good.

I am more than grateful that so many . . and other 3rd world doctors
I'm not.
Met one who was incompetent (didn't know how to treat a blast injury - pretty intuitive even for non medic) and the more recent was condescending and appeared not to give a sh1t. Just had similar report from neighbour re her uninspiring private doc. :(

No. you're correct ORAC, it isn't an argument, because you all seem to be saying the same thing.

Of course I can't condone not giving immunisations to children- any other decision is perverse and goes against science. (Vaccinations are one of the few interventions we perform that actually does make a big difference to our population.)

You say that we absolutely no way accept that means we have to compromise on medical practices to accommodate their cultural taboos.

Well actually, we all do, already, whether or not we're muslim, christian, agnostic, whatever.

It happens every day in healthcare, attitudes to termination, contraception, treating smokers, the obese, heroin addicts, sex change surgery, etc etc, are all slightly different, depending on which clinician you see-perhaps as a result of our own cultural differences.

There is room for compromise, (not appeasement), it seems sometimes that you can almost smell the hatred when the word "muslim" is used round here.

Newsflash!!!!!

Media whips up storm in a tea cup.

Extra extra!!!!

Forum member posts it on the internet and it starts general discussion, that leads to angry rants, silly banter, anti US gun rants, talk about 'not in my day' and talk about Kylie Minogues bum.....or dancing badgers.

GPMG: that is what Pprune is all about! It allows us all to get in touch with our inner Dail Mail or Daily Mirror reader!

The problem with all these 'stories', imho, is that there is a small section of British Muslims who appear intent on causing as much offence and controversy as they possibly can, usually through misguided interpretations of Muslim teachings. They are the few rotten apples who through some sort of sense of exaltation and religious zeal give fuel to the hysterical rantings of the tabloid press and the Daily Mail reading constituency, who in turn appear intent on taking as much offence as they possibly can, and who only see Islam as a force for evil which is intent on conquering this so-called 'Christian' country.

All of which neatly explains why religions of all orders are counterproductive and divisive. Unfortunately, however, it would appear that we are still lumbered with them.

I don't believe It says anywhere in the Koran that Muslims must not come into contact with alcohol, just that they're not supposed to drink it. Nor does it say anywhere that a Muslim woman should cover herself from head to toe, although sadly there are enough crazy Mullahs saying that it does, and enough willingly subordinate women believing them that it is now a common sight.

But Islam is not a violent or hateful religion in essence, and nor are the vast majority of British Muslims intent on overthrowing the 'British way of life' (whatever that is). I accept that some teachings of Islam conflict with traditional Western values, and where they do, there is an impasse. But that can not extend to allowing Muslims to flout standard health and safety procedures at work. The huge majority of Muslim doctors (and there are many) do not subscribe to such ludicrous objections. It is a tiny minority of radical 'Muslims' who are fuelling the anger and prejudice of a large constituency of white, middle-class, middle-England.

This small section of Muslims are misguided in their interpretation of their faith, and the large section of middle-England is equally misguided in their perception of the threat posed.

We had somewhat a similar version here in the US, Florida to be exact. A female Muslim decided that she would not show her face for her drivers license photo. The driver license agency refused to issue her a drivers license unless her full face picture was on the license. Of course she sued. The case made it to the Supreme Court where she lost.

The ruling of the court, abbreviated, is that the authorization to operate a motor vehicle in the United States is a privilege granted by the State, not a right guaranteed by the Constitution. She does have the right to dress as she pleases to conform to the dictates of her chosen religion, however, she must accept the consequences of her actions in doing so.

By the way, the woman in question was not born into the Muslim religion, she was not raised Muslim, no she was an Anglo blond headed, blue eyed young woman who married a Muslim.

We see these articles and they probably apply to a tiny minority of Muslims, the vast majority probably wring their very clean hands thinking what next?

It is the same as applying radical Christian teachings to all who follow the Christian faith, we know full well they are a small bunch of nutters.
The only problem is that there is a radicalising of Islamic students in the UK it may be small but it is effective, with such attitudes now becoming entrenched there is a huge danger of isolating faiths even more. As I say it every time it is up to people within the faith to stand up to these hardliners and say get real. These radicals twist the words of the Koran for their own ends.

I've worked and work with lots of Moslem sisters and doctors in theatre & out and over more years than I like to remember I've never heard any of this nonsense.

Sounds like someone is (as usual) trying to make trouble, seek further victimhood and extend their sense of grievance.

A firm NO is required (followed by GOODBYE!)

"Must you stay? Won't you go?"

:ok:

Then again, what's so bad about shoulder length black latex gloves, especially if held in place by some thick straps and shiny buckles?

:ok:

Con-pilot mate, we've got a few of our own home-grown as well:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/jihad-sheila-passport-risk/2008/02/05/1202090421351.html

Its enough to make you wonder
bin Laden followed the correct version of Islam
indeed

con-pilot

".......blue eyed young woman who married a Muslim."

Why couldn't the Muslim convert to the "Anglo blond headed, blue eyed young woman"s religion? That would level the playing field, would it not?

Our countries have already given them too much rope. They will soon hang us.

It's very simple, all medical staff wash there hands as laid down by the hospital instructions or they get a P45. How simple and un-racist is that. It applies to ALL medical staff of all religions and creeds.

Wedge
I don't believe It says anywhere in the Koran that Muslims must not come into contact with alcohol, just that they're not supposed to drink it. Nor does it say anywhere that a Muslim woman should cover herself from head to toe, although sadly there are enough crazy Mullahs saying that it does, and enough willingly subordinate women believing them that it is now a common sight.


Mate, you have hit the nail on the head!

Gingernut

I'm so sorry that you don't like the terms I used. Perhaps you could advise me as to how I should word my posts so that I don't upset you again. Oh, and I don't think you will find anywhere in my post any suggestion that I dislike Muslim doctors en masse. I am talking specifically about a group of people who are expecting preferential treatment.

Wedge

Wow, it must have been weeks since you were able to abuse the Daily Mail, that most dangerous of all journals, and the mad, ranting Middle-England (whatever that is) people who so misguidedly read it. How lucky we have the likes of you to put us on the right track. Being white and middle class I am obviously genetically warped and thus need some guidance in hand-wringing and detestation of my country.

Actually, no sod it, I'll stay as I am, thanks. I am fed up of hearing the liberal mantra of how it is only a few Muslims who seek to undermine us. IMHO it is getting to be a very large 'few' who are only comforted by the liberal efforts to molllify them and the resounding lack of action against them from the Muslim majority. We are heading for a massive backlash and when this happens it will be the fault of the pacifiers and the silent who are making what should be a molehill into a mountain.

There is already evidence of lower than average vaccination rates in Muslim areas, reducing the prospect of the “herd immunity” and the problem is?

I don't believe It says anywhere in the Koran that Muslims must not come into contact with alcohol, just that they're not supposed to drink it.It doesn't say that either, just that a Muslim is not allowed to pray with alcohol in the 'system'; try praying at least 5 times a day and NOT having any alcohol in the system!

Say what you like, but Mohammed was actually protecting 'his people' when the Kuraan was written.

I'd rather eat pork than beef - so far no 'mad pig disease'! (and if anyone mentions their wife........!)

One idea might be to produce long, sterile, disposable gloves which go up to the elbows."

Most veterinary practices have ample supplies of these - now for the practical... :uhoh:

reminds me of a joke

Health Inspector drops into a cafe incognito. He orders a sausage roll and is impressed to see the proprietor use tongs to place the item on the plate. The proprietor then takes the money and, before serving the next customer washes his hands.

In his seat at the window the inspector observes the owner for some time. He washes his hands at every opportunity, is rigorous in his refusal to touch food and is meticulous in clearing and cleaning tables.


After an hour the inspector approaches the proprietor and introduces himself. 'I'm here to ensure that you comply with hygiene regulations and am delighted to say that you maintain very high standards. You wash your hands when you should, you keep a clean house and you only handle foods with the tongs. Well done 10 out of 10......

..... but tell me one thing. Why have you got a piece of string attached to your flies?

Easy says the proprietor. When I go to the toilet it means that I can undo my zip by pulling on the string. My penis falls out and I can urinate without having to touch it

'Excellent' says the Inspector, ' but how do you get your penis back into your trousers?'


'That's easy, Sir...................

I use the tongs'

Fit in, obey OUR rules or f*ck off and sweep the streets. Our hospitals are unhygienic enough without having people working in them who can't/won't scrub up!

As Wedge stated there is nothing in the Qu'ran stating that women should cover themselves from head to toe. But there are some very darkened individuals who interpret the Qu'ran in ways that is simply mind boggling.

Not much different from how certain fractions of so-called christians choose to interpret the Bible.

I'm married to a, allegedly* muslem girl so should know.

* She drinks, eats pork and married me. Then again, most of her family are hardly of the rightous kind either.

We see these articles and they probably apply to a tiny minority of Muslims, the vast majority probably wring their very clean hands thinking what next?
I think so too... so, where are they? The majority of Muslims, the sensible ones, need to speak out. In essence, I think the Muslim community needs to police themselves, since in this kind of dispute we are talking about a minority that rejects instructions and advice from non-Muslims. We are not to be trusted, simply because we are not Muslim. :=

bnt:

A good idea, but I am not sure that it would work. As far as I can see it is always the case that the fanatic minority will not listen to the moderate majority. Fanatics of any persuasion consider any of their bretheren who do not agree with them as "corrupted".

I'm delighed to see my passing reference to the Daily Hate Mail had the desired effect :p

Ahhhhh damn I'd forgotten I was white and middle class too. Bugger that's undermined my argument. I know, I think I'll run off and join UKIP, start buying the Daily Mail and trotting out a 'good white English people are becoming 2nd class citizens in their own country' line. I don't think any loyal white British subject has tried the disingenuous, whining, 'victim' angle before......hmmmmmmm........

Which one of the MODS deleted my last post in this thread. I thought this was not for the faint of hearted??????:confused::confused::confused::confused:

djk

Liked that joke. Nice one!! Ha!:D

Just goes to show, you can take the boy out of -------- but you can take -------- out of the boy!:=

so, where are they? The majority of Muslims, the sensible ones, need to speak out. In essence, I think the Muslim community needs to police themselves, since in this kind of dispute we are talking about a minority that rejects instructions and advice from non-Muslims. We are not to be trusted, simply because we are not Muslim.

They don't speak out because they can't, bnt. To do so would acknowledge a rejection of their own social and religious foundations, and, at the essential level, constitute an admission of the failure and empty sadness of core Islamic principles, generally held.

You or I would have a hard time admitting such of our fundamental principles as well. Fortunately, we have more of a basis to support ours. Being as empirical as I can be, given that I am arguing for my own culture, I find this argument from an Islamic apostate (or former Muslim), to be compelling in the simplicity and truth of its observation.

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_snd-west.html

Episodes such as is the subject of this thread, will continue to occur so long as our two cultures coexist in the same space. The challenge, in my view, is what level of barbaric practice we are willing to accept, and what level of social conflict we are willing to endure to make our stand, if we choose to make a stand at all in defense of Western values?

Well you can't trust the Church to make a stand, or the crown if the tree hugger takes over..

Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7232661.stm) says Archbishop of Canterbury.. :ugh::ugh:

One time citizens who did not relate to British law were shipped to Oz,them as we didn't hang that is.:E

The problem with all these 'stories', imho, is that there is a small section of British Muslims who appear intent on causing as much offence and controversy as they possibly can, usually through misguided interpretations of Muslim teachings.

Hmmm substitute "British Muslim" with "American Chrisitian" and you have a pretty good rendition of what is going on here in the US.

I worked in a hospital in Sierra Leone last year, where the local Christian and Muslim population live happily side by side. One particular guy we treated but who very sadly later died, had been the victim of an extremely nasty RTA and was given what I can only describe as an heroic attempt to save his life by the local doctor without any need for or question of his ethnicity or religion.

This whole religious issue is an embuggerance and an afront to humanity. It doesn't matter what race, colour, creed or religion you are, we all bleed red.

I must add, speaking as an ex-RN MA, that the downroute cabin crew member who helped us in theatre, was a credit to her company and training. You know who you are!

Always happy to feed your paranoia and fear of that particular periodical.:ok:

After much discussion with Mrs Tigs over the last few hours concerning the decline and continuing erosion of our way of life in this once fine country I have made a cataclysmic decision. We are abandoning ship, and very quickly. We are selling up lock stock and barrel and moving 6500 miles away. By the beggining of April i am off for good.:D:D:ok:

There is not one politician with the moral courage to take a stand to keep Britain British. So I am moving somewhere where you can fly your flag without being called a racist. Enoch Powell must be doing 60 000 RPM in his grave.

Western US? Would go there myself if I had the paperwork. Good luck to you.;)

Welcome, Tigs. Be quick about it, and maybe you can vote next time around!

Tig2

"There is not one politician with the moral courage to take a stand to keep Britain British"

Are you sure about that?

What about the boys at the B*P.

Now guys don't start screaming racism just yet please. Just remember, you can't have your cake and eat it.

You people want the country sorted and cleaned don't you?

mmm good point, I don't see many of those about though, although it is highly possible we will see more in the future.

I'll bet Lister and Pasteur are spinning in their graves. Dangerous nonsense, just follow proven safe practice or get another job or get another country.

Which one of the MODS deleted my last post in this thread. I thought this was not for the faint of hearted??????

Deleted posts are visible to Mods ... there is no previous post from you that I can see so no idea where it is, assuming it made it on to this thread.

Yes the post was on this thread. made on or around the 3rd feb to 5th feb...

Yet another Muslim-hatred trolling thread.

At first it was amusing, but now you people are starting to beleive BNP/Daily Hatred party lines.

You people want the country sorted and cleaned don't you?

The only cleansing the B*P promote is ethnic. I would hope British people would be above that sort of thing.

And I hope I do not see anyone supporting the idea of ethnic cleansing, of any sort. It would be a blot upon the British nation.

(heheheh, still Irish!)

Now then, back to the issue in the post above. Which, if I recall correctly, is the refusal of someone to wash hands on foot of religous beleif.

Hospital manager: "(insert name of whinger), it appears you do not clean your hands. Why?"

Whinger: "it's against my religion. I cannot touch alcohol."

Manager: "Well, you've two choices. Make accomodations yourself for your reeligious beleifs, I suggest carrying a non-alcoholic cleaning agent with you. Or, I'm afraid I will have to terminate your contract.

.................

For God's sake, I'm on my hands and knees, all of you, apply LOGIC!
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Edit: For God's/Allah's/The Great Gatsby Galloobah's/Walllywalllyooobahoobah/GOODNESS(for the atheists) sake!

At least get the issue right. they're refusing to wash their arms above the wrist because they say they cannot bare their arms - so the cleansing agent is immaterial, whether it be alcohol or carbolic.

Manager: What now *insert name of whinger*

Whinger: I cannot wash my arms above the wrist. It's against my religion.

Manager: Well, you've two choices. Make accomodations yourself for your reeligious beleifs, I suggest making sure that you throw a plastic rescue sheet or some other cover over you as you wash your arms. Or, I'm afraid I will have to terminate your contract.

Whinger: But that's rediculous! I'd look like a fool!

Manager: Well, we need you to wash your arms as per regulations. You feel the need to respect your religion. Either *you* make accomodations or your employment *will* be terminated.

Everything else about Muslims, etc etc is unwanted fat on this thread. And boy oh boy is this thread obese........

I feel like I'm in a Hamster Wheel. Maybe there should be a Muslim-bashing Hamster Wheel thread?