Uk Jstars?

[foormort]

http://timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3296568.ece

True story? If so what does the future hold for the Nimrod R1?

[speeddial]

They are talking about replacing the R1 with jointly crewed RC135s, not sure where JointSTARS comes into it at all?

[StopStart]

Call it what you like, it's still a rubbish idea.

Now then, if we could rent some AC130 gunships.......that would be a different matter..... :E

[Nimrod Liney]

"Both aircraft types suffer from the same fuel leaks and are fitted with the same hot-air pipes that caused the Afghanistan incident in which 14 servicemen died."
Now I may have missed something but didn't the BOI suspect the SCP Pipe on the Stbd Side of the Aircraft close to the 7 tank dry bay?

The R1 hasn't got a SCP fitted, so does not have the same hot-air pipes,
how do I know theres no SCP on the R1?
Theres no SCP intake, look at the top image of the R1, under the 51 Sqn goose, look at the same position on the lower MR2 image thats the SCP intake, below the intake is the exhast

http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/specials/images/plane_raf_nimrod_r1.jpg

http://www.bottleville.co.uk/images/RIAT%202003/Nimrod%20MR2.JPG

[XV277]

Mmmmm, was hinted at on the previous thread on this topic

[Could be the last?]

So what are the E3s doing? More importantly, what are all the Fly (FCs) doing? I have heard that they have quite a monopoly at Cranwell....... Shame they aren't taking the strain in the sandpits!:= (1 ACC aside.)

[BEagle]

Rather a stupid internecine comment....

So, is the RAF really going to have to sacrifice another field of excellence so that the overstretched defence budget can continue to pay for Bush/Bliar adventurism?

The PR9 'capability holiday' :hmm:, nothing on the near FSTA horizon, the woeful state of the MRA4.......haven't the FJ mafia in the mad MoD-box yet learned the lesson?

R1 replacement is infinitely more essential than a few more EuropHoons for ageing Air Marshals to play in..:mad:

[trap one]

I think that you'll find that a number of E3 FC's have been doing tours of both sandpit/Stan with 1ACC and other locations.

Various plans for B707 platforms to give common airframe to ease spare probs both at home and deployed if co-located with RJ135/E3's have been muted.
BUT and it is a big BUT the kit down the back of the R1 is not the same as a RJ135.

My solution, buy 5 CFM56 cargo door B707. pay to zero life the frames and then palletise the kit withe all 5 a/c having the antennas and use the serviceable one to fly the missions. Any other serviceable kites can be split for PCT for all 4 squadrons.

[Never Alert]

FC's are doing a great deal more than 1ACC from an operational perspective. Some tasks are not suitable for mention on this forum.

Perhaps you don't know as much as you think you do...:ugh:

[Biggus]

Ah, I can see the start of a '....my job is more important/dangerous/difficult/essential/continually on deployment than yours but I can't discuss it here.....' wi**y waving contest coming on.

It's nice to know there are some things that you can still rely on!!

[In Tor Wot]

"The crews of the US Rivet Joint spy planes masquerading as RAF aircraft will not even be totally British with US personnel expected to take control on some missions."

Does that include when we're tasked to fly missions against targets that the U.S. don't approve of ?

What is the staus of the crews should the aircraft be shot/forced down?

"But that would cost more than £600m altogether whereas the cost of sharing the US Air Force’s Rivet Joint aircraft would be much cheaper in the short term."

Emphasis on short term . . . . how unusual, in this day and age, that the airships know the cost of everything and the value of nothing :ugh:

"The “British” aircraft will be painted with RAF markings and flown by joint USAF/RAF crews. The first of the two aircraft could be loaned to the UK as early as next year."

See first two questions.

In addition, if we really are talking about early next year, one might suspect that discussions have been going on for a damn sight longer than as the "new-found solution" to the recent budget cuts might suggest :(

[Jackonicko]

In the "too good to be true" category, 51's Wikipedia entry says:

"During the Iraq War, a Nimrod detected a radio transmission from a village north of Baghdad. The crew realised that there should not be a transmission from such an isolated village, and sent an American patrol to investigate. It was here that they found Saddam Hussein."

[MarkD]

next they'll decide to get clapped out KC-135s to do FSTA when the Americans retire theirs in favour of KC-767. That will probably be cheap too :rolleyes:

[Lazer-Hound]

If this story is true, why bother painting RAF roundels on the aircraft? Presumably for logistical reasons they'll be colocated at Mildenhall or other RJ operating bases and will remain on the USAF register?

The Predators jointly operated by USAF and RAF don't carry UK markings, do they?

[Evalu8ter]

Beagle,
I think you've struck a deep chord with your comments.

There appears to be rampant salami-slicing of capabilties, delays to capital programmes and blythe "capability holidays" from RAF Centre...unless it's the typhoon we're talking about.

The fact that we're even debating the loss of one of the true world-class capabilities that we possess says it all. Offer 24 TypHoons to the US for a coalition op they'll see if they can find us some space between the F22s, F15s, F16s, F18s etc for political reasons. Offer up stuff they are short of or we do better, ie AAR, ELINT, ISTAR, SF etc and they always MAKE space.

So we'll cut the MPA force when they've rarely been busier, we'll keep delaying new tankers, we'll erode 51 Sqns capbility. We'll then spin the ASTOR, Reaper and Predator as our holy trinity for recce, the "massive" investment in A400/C17 as proof we're sorting out AT and, wait for it, 6 whole, new (well, a bit s/h) Merlins to solve all of the RW woes. Meanwhile the good ship (gravy train) TyPhoon sails along serenely, with myopic ex lightning mates getting all sentimental over an 8g single seat fighter with some endurance.

Typhoon is needed, just not 232 of them at the expense of other core capabilities.

[Lima Juliet]

The Predators jointly operated by USAF and RAF don't carry UK markings, do they?

Lazer, I know this is a Reaper but it does have 39 Sqn insignia, RAF roundels and that gopping Royal Air Force corporate logo...

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/3611BAE3-F96A-473C-BD8C-48F61D416828/0/CAC99PDI.jpg

[Jackonicko]

Evalu8ter,

I agree with your sentiments, but you have the wrong target in your sights.

The UK has used its FJs again and again. Jags, Harriers and Tornados.

Typhoon promises to be more maintainable, more supportable, with lower operating costs and better deployability.

And promising better versatility, and better A-A and A-G capabilities too.

We need FJs, and lots of them - a 12-13 squadron FJ force isn't big enough to do another Granby, even, and can't really sustain today's more modest enduring commitments.

All the really big money has been spent on Typhoon, and buying more of them is little more than a matter of their marginal cost (the unit production price of about £42 m) and saves us from cancellation penalties.

But we do need tankers, SH, recce, an R1 replacement, SEAD and more useful weapons, so how to pay for them?

Cancel the carriers and you get £4 Bn that hasn't yet been spent, and probably £50 m per JSF, too.

[Evalu8ter]

Jacko,
All good points and well made. I would agree with you if the RAF still had the ability to project power over strategic distances without relying on HNS and tactical FJ aviation. Sure, you can trot out a whole load of Doctrinal Bolloeux about the Strategic role of Storm Shadow, and yes, if the target set and Int is good enough you can hit an enemy CoG with it......as long as the Release Point is within range of a tactical FJ operating from HNS with AAR or.....a Carrier.. or at a push a Nimrod. Air operations over Strategic range have been left to the AT force by an RAF seemingly obsessed with RAFG concepts of range and payload. It's almost like talking to crusty WO2s in the AAC who base everything on NI circa 1985.....

I agree that the UK, and I use that term deliberately, FJ force is too small. All the more reason for making it more flexible by giving basing options other than HNS. Can T3 Typhoon (or export the T1/T2 jets), buy the full compliment of JSF (more if you can afford it) and invest a little in what's important today, not in a hypothetical peer war in 20 years time. Troops being shot at now need a solid airbridge to supply and rotate them, CASEVAC helos to save them if they bleed, and enough ISTAR/ELINT to prevent them bleeding in the first place.

[Jackonicko]

1) The only 'cancellable' Typhoons are the 90 or so in Tranche 3 (the jets that might have CFTs and all the bells and whistles that would make them really useful A-G aircraft).

2) You will only save any serious money if you can get the other partners to cancel their T3 aircraft, too, otherwise it's penalty payments. ("It would be cheaper to take delivery and then dismantle them with a JCB" someone once said).

3) You're looking at saving at most £3.8 Bn, if you can get the above ducks in a row, and save every single penny from Tranche 3. You'd save that at a single stroke by canning the carriers alone, and you'd save MUCH more if you also canned JSF, for which we still don't have a definitive price, a realistic ISD, or proper reassurances on ITAR, and which would represent an additional aircraft type, with an additional logistics chain.

If you want kit that's useable today, then JSF ain't it. Perhaps we need a shedload of Gripens or F-16Es to augment the Typhoons.....

4) If you can't get HNS, the op is probably politically unsustainable anyway. (And you need HNS for the AAR/ISTAR, etc.)

[Melchett01]

Typhoon is needed, just not 232 of them at the expense of other core capabilities

We need FJs, and lots of them - a 12-13 squadron FJ force isn't big enough to do another Granby, even, and can't really sustain today's more modest enduring commitments.


The lefties, do-gooders, tree-huggers and general all round pains in the arse point to the NHS needing funding etc. Well you could spend the entire GNP / GDP on the NHS and guess what, yep, the death rate would still be 100%. Meanwhile, whilst they are whinging about the money being spend on Trident, Nimrod, Typhoon etc, how many billions are they wasting on that white elephant of an NHS IT system that is even worse than JPA which could fill a really big part of our current defence black hole.

No, what we really need is some decent funding for once instead of what we get. I think you'll find given the correct levels of funding for our current operational requirements, we need all the FJ we can get our hands on, we need more AT and SH than you can shake a stick at, we need a credible forward leaning integrated ISTAR plan and for f's sake, buy those bloody tankers! In short, we need it all, not just a few bits and pieces here and there. There are days when I feel like Oliver going up to the head table saying 'please sir, can I have some more?'

I wonder what the lefties, do gooders and pains in the arse would say if we decided we were going to have a capability holiday in cancer care, or if the fire service were going to have a capability holiday in putting out fires in tower blocks or that the immigration services were going to have a break from protecting our borders .... on second thoughts, they already have, but you get the idea. They wouldn't put up with it. There'd be an outcry. There'd be tofu flying everywhere, comfy shoes would be hurled at Whitehall in disgust and Swampy would no doubt be back up the nearest tree in protest. So why are the public so short sighted that the cannot see that defence, like the police, the fire & ambulance services, the NHS are all there to serve the country and its people in times of need.