ZRH experts (re VEBIT 2S SID)

[None]

When flying the ZRH VEBIT 2S RNAV SID off of RW16 in VMC (left turn at 1 DME), it seems to me that I must disregard my FMS track display and simply fly a left turn to intercept the track to BREGO.

Since this is a noise abatement SID, if I start the left turn at 1 DME and merely intercept the FMS track, I imagine I am not complying with the intent of the VMC noise abatement.

How do the ZRH experts read the VMC note?

[Mister Geezer]

Obviously FMC databases won't have the VMC portion stored so it has to be flown with no track/FMC guidance. Don't fall into the trap of widening any turn to follow the displayed track. Use heading select to bring it round the corner then once on track from the overhead then LNAV (or whatever you use) can be used.

The airport operator at ZRH (Unique) are very very strict on SID compliance, especially with the altitude constraints. The surrounding residential area around the airport seems to generate more and more noise complaints as time passes. Make sure you follow the SID accurately or Unique will insist that you write a letter to account for your actions!!! :\

[None]

I just noticed the WIL R-055 statement hidden below the IMC wording. That really answers the rest of the question. Thanks for your insight MG.

Regards.

[SuperRanger]

from our experience operating out of ZRH, there are TWO requirements that need to be satisfied! first is the noise abatement and second is nav tracking. i believe for most 'modern' airplanes with high bypass engines, flown with the correct NADP, it would not be a problem to satisfy the first requirement. i believe, most operators' infringement (as ours) are with the nav tracking. when the ATIS reports a VMC condition (yes, UNIQUE monitors and keeps record of the ATIS!), they EXPECT the VMC track to be flown! the problem lies with the FMC as it is programmed to fly the IMC track, if other than LNAV is selected... a good chance a 'nicely-worded' letter (included is a pretty printout of your ACTUAL track versus the 'required' track :uhoh:) from UNIQUE will follow :ugh:

SR

[Mister Geezer]

a good chance a 'nicely-worded' letter (included is a pretty printout of your ACTUAL track versus the 'required' track ) from UNIQUE will follow

Here was me thinking I was the only person to get such letter!!! :} I made sure that 'my' response was just as frank!!! :) I was only nabbed once and it was hot and we were heavy and it was the first time I had done that SID! It is interesting to note that altitude constraints will be flagged up if you miss them by as little as 100 feet! I have been told by one of the other crew that Swiss have agreed to use different altitude constraints on their A343s due to the lack of puff.

On the SID off runway 32 there is a restriction to be at or above 3500' at 4DME KLO. Think Swiss guys in A343s can use 2500' instead! :rolleyes:

[767-300ER]

I have dealt with many of these letters on behalf of my company. Our performance engineers determined that we cannot follow the VMC departure procedure due to obstacle issues, so we always follow the IMC procedure. This does not cause a problem with Unique.

What Unique wants is the aircraft to start a turn at 2400', not 2700 or 3200 or whatever. 99% of the problems were caused by crews not starting the turn as soon as they get to 2400'. Since every departure will have a unique point at which it will achieve 2400', there is no hard and fast geographic point at which you have to turn. A lightly loaded 767 will achieve 2400' much earlier than a heavily loaded 340-300. Unique understands this, so the clock starts ticking once you reach 2400'..if you delay your turn X seconds after achieving 2400', you'll get a letter.... What X is, Unique won't tell, but it is in the order of 10-15 seconds.

As far as I know, no one has been violated for not following the NADP. It's always a track/lateral error.


And as has been pointed out, one has just use heading select or the equivalent mode to get the turn going and use heading mode until west of the airport. Using LNAV will definitely get you into trouble.

If one gets a letter, don't be a jerk, just answer it honestly and that will probably end the matter...

[None]

That information is very helpful.

Would it be possible to get a your point of contact with the Swiss officials or Government with whom I can discuss this information?

I believe an improvement in the wording of the SID might be prudent as well.

Thanks very much.

[Mister Geezer]

Unless you get any other suggestions... I would suggest making contact with Skyguide (Swiss ATC provider) since they will be able to point you in the right direction. They have an efficient PR department so if they can't help you then they will certainly point you in the right direction.

Try [email protected] !

That address will take you to the PR department for Zurich ATC. They are very happy to help flight crews with questions or queries. I arranged a visit to ATC there for a colleague and myself and the request was dealt with very promptly.