Crash near Harrogate, UK: January 2008

[AircraftOperations]

BBC reporting a civilian heli down near Harrogate.

Apparently went down around 16.30.

Any more news available?

[kwachon]

Just read this

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Two dead after helicopter crash (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/north_yorkshire/7211208.stm)

Two people have died in a helicopter crash at a golf resort near Harrogate, North Yorkshire.
Police, fire and ambulance services were called to attend the scene in woodland at Rudding Park - a luxury hotel and golf resort - at 1630 GMT.

The victims, a middle-aged man and a middle-aged woman, both from the West Yorkshire area, are thought to have died instantly, police said.

The helicopter had just taken off when it crashed.

The fire service said the area was searched for other casualties but no-one else was found.
An investigation has been launched by the police and the Air Accidents Investigation Branch.

Weather forecasters said there had been high winds in the area earlier, which had subsided by the time of the crash but conditions were still gusty.

Police say the deceased, who were pronounced dead at the scene, were due to be formally identified on Monday.

Insp Tad Nowakowski, of North Yorkshire Police said their bodies would be removed from the wreckage of the helicopter on Sunday.
"The helicopter is in the middle of a small wood," he said.

"We understand they had just left Rudding Park Hotel. The two people are from the West Yorkshire area, the helicopter is a private helicopter.

"My thoughts and prayers are with their family and friends.

"It would appear to be a really tragic incident and our job now is to try and establish the cause, which will take some time."

A private function at the 2,000 acre hotel and resort, which was recently named the 12th most luxurious in the world, has still gone ahead.

Former guests have included former US presidents Bill Clinton and George Bush Senior, former Russian president Mikhail Gorbachev and Archbishop Desmond Tutu, of South Africa.

The landlord of a nearby pub said flights over the hotel, which has an 18-hole Championship golf course, occurred daily.

[Tigger4Me]

Sky News reporting two killed. I hope they have got it wrong.

[nigelh]

gazelle just delivered today . Pilot wisely took safety pilot with him to the accident site and was last seen tying it down . Sounds like he couldnt resist having a play later on. New ppl with 46 hrs . Wind at a guess gusting 50 kn.
I have name but will not post until public. Not implying weather was a factor but with a mere 1,000 + hrs and 500 on type i would not have been up there today. Tragic.

[Mir999]

Privately owned Gazelle crashed near to Rudding Park Hotel. Both occupants killed on impact.

RIP

[heli-mad]

RIP......not good news at all... it was(and still is) very windy up here today...

[anotherthing]

Nigelh

That's got to be hard on the Safety Pilot, although not his fault in any way whatsoever, he must be finding it a trying time, having helped safely deliver it.

RIP

[MDflyer]

its was over the limits of most ppl pilots today

[EESDL]

nigelh
sitting with a cuppa by the Nidd - couldn't imagine anyone flying in this weather!

[Milky Milky]

was that 46 hrs total time.:sad:
RIP

[MDflyer]

i'm very sorry for was has happened,
but when will pilots, use the local atis,

the gusting with was high in yorkshire today,
and most pilots with high hrs would not go out,

as you all know wind is ok but high gusts
are a different thing,

[helimutt]

I was flying in East Yorkshire today and to say it was too windy for low time PPL's is an understatement. It was less windy than yesterday but still not good. I was watching a groundspeed of 202kts (2000' wind was only 235/68!!) most of my flight, one way of course. What the hell is wrong with people? Are some of the people who teach ppl's these days not pushing the message across hard enough about flying in bad wx, that includes strong winds, or is it something else? Looks like the accident season has started, reading the threads today.

Tragic that TWO people died.
RIP

[MDflyer]

if the guy was flying from a unlicensed site,

there is no one to stop him,

its just the same as driving
your car down the freeway at 80mph in fog,

[nigelh]

I think that if i had been the safety pilot i would have strongly advised no solo flying in any kind of weather . ( and i am sure that he did do just that )
46 hrs of flying does not prepare you for flying in these conditions IMHO.
RIP

in fact i think the wind was stronger today than yesterday . We were out shooting on the hill both days and today you could not stand up when on top.
Maybe new licences should have restrictions just like solo flying when training ? What if you do all your training in good calm weather ...you could then find that your first ever flight in severe turbulence is solo . Sad there was not an experienced pilot around at the time to advise against the flight.
I am told 46 hrs was total time heli but he had fixed wing experience.

[MDflyer]

yes, your right,

the gusts today, was too high to start up the gazelle,
unless he was in a hanger !

[helimutt]

Can't agree more Nigel. Pity we couldn't arrange a night for helicopter FI's/ ppl's/cpl's/ anyone interested in heli's to meet up in Yorkshire area etc. Talk about wx, accidents, do's and dont's of flying, what we all learned on the path to our present positions, plus any questions along the way, and in a relaxed atmosphere. I found the FI seminars were ok for FI's but the most I learned not in the air was during my nights out on an arranged evening every two weeks, in Newcastle, over beers etc with a common theme, heli's, and people of all levels coming along and being able to ask questions without the worry of looking stupid in front of their peers.
So many pointless deaths! A bloody shame.

[Jetscream 32]

when has any child at xmas ever taken any notice of when you can play with toys when they are there to be played with?.... terrible shame - eagerness and excitement looks like it cost him +1 their lives - very sad and sensless...:(

[Milky Milky]

My feelings are obviously with those involved but spare a thought for the FE who passed someone at minimum hours who makes the news on there first trip. very sad.
Some students are bad, some very good and some you swear are learning somewhere else on the side. Experience however is a very diffrent attribute.:sad:

[helimutt]

the unfortunate point is a child won't kill himself and another innocent party if he plays with 'toys' at xmas.
This was an expensive aircraft requiring the necessary skill and sense to operate it, neither of which were shown.

[jellycopter]

A very sad day indeed. I had the pleasure of flying with the pilot only a few weeks ago. Such a terrible loss for his family and freinds.

RIP

JJ

[Efirmovich]

Do we know if all the 46hrs were on Gazelle ?

E.

[md 600 driver]

just a little point the pilot also had a fixed wing cpl /ir frozen atpl ect. his low hours were on helicopters only

ef
most of his hours was on a gazelle

rip friend

[nigelh]

An examiner can only work within the rules of the system. If somebody performs the tasks requested satisfactorily during the test they pass ....as simple as that. If you start playing god a failing people just because they lack experience then nobody will use you . It is no different to passing a 17 yr old on their driving test. They may behave beautifully when you are sitting next to them and then reckless with their mates on board. My worry is that i can remember aged 21 with 200 hrs being totally unprepared for situations that students put me in that i had never encountered before, but i did have a chief pilot to guide me re when to go and when not to ...then crop spraying i also had one to keep me out of trouble . A new ppl doesnt have anybody to tell him what to do . How many of you would sit in the back with a 50 hr ppl even in 20 kn ?

[phil doherty]

hiya, my names phil, a reporter from the Sunday Sun newspaper, North East, Nortrh Yorkshire and Cumbria.
We are covering this awful crash in north yorkshire and were wondering if there was anyone who might be able to help us with the story.

[Milky Milky]

Nigel i couldn't agree with you more.
However the 45 hour minimum hours were in place long before JAR and all the additional requirements. (especially the "lets learn to fly in cloud but don't do it" bit)
Market forces spawn the pass in 45 hour culture. My humble experience is a 70 - 90 hour pass average with at least 50% attrition rate.
I also don't remember any part of a ppl(h) coarse which advocates flying in 50+ kts. The people you teach learn everything they know from you.

[Lurking123]

Makes you wonder what someone did with him for his 45 hrs of training. Reasonable to assume that with his previous fixed wing experience, they shouldn't/wouldn't be concentrating on Nav? As a 20 hr Robbo student with extensive fixed wing experience, I'm spending a lot of time learning how important the wind is.


Sad, very sad.

[Efirmovich]

Phil, looking at your post, I hope you get someone to proof read your copy !

Don't expect a flood of replies from here..........:=

E.

[md 600 driver]

the 46 hours on rotor wing is incorrect he has more hours than that since passing his test he has flown to denmark and back [with safety pilot before any one asks ]

[MDflyer]

one of you guys, said, get some pilots to meet up one night,
with ref, to talk about wind and so on,

i would like to be there on that night,
i have 21 year flying with the USAF,and now am flying
for blackwater in Iraq,
i live in USA, but also have a home in Surrey England,
so i can help, set up the date and let me know,
if i can make it, it will !

[A.Agincourt]

A sad tale indeed, again another incident in questionable weather. 40 kts is a limitation for stopping/starting rotors in a Gazelle.

RIP

[Colonal Mustard]

hiya, my names phil, a reporter from the Sunday Sun newspaper, North East, Nortrh Yorkshire and Cumbria.
We are covering this awful crash in north yorkshire and were wondering if there was anyone who might be able to help us with the story.

Phil

Whilst some people within this forum would be more than happy to assist you in various other issues/debates it may probably be worth your while obtaining all facts pertaining to this sad incident from the proper authorities. AAIB/Police etc, i would also thank you for being open as to who/where your from.

CM

[Ioan]

one of you guys, said, get some pilots to meet up one night,
with ref, to talk about wind and so on,

i would like to be there on that night,
i have 21 year flying with the USAF,and now am flying
for blackwater in Iraq,
i live in USA, but also have a home in Surrey England,
so i can help, set up the date and let me know,
if i can make it, it will !

I'd be very up for something like that. Got only 200 odd hours myself so I'd appreciate the chance to pick the brains of those with more experience. An informal get together some evening sounds ideal.

RIP those who died today

[MDflyer]

well said, CM

[spice island]

Very sad news indead, the weather has been rough for days, my thoughts are with the families.

Does anyone know the registration of the Gazelle?

[MDflyer]

i'm sure lots of other pilots will help,

i'm good for my word, put me on the list

[helimutt]

bit of thread creep here but as for meeting up, the problem will be geographic. Maybe have a few people arrange meets in a few different locations in Uk, or at least try to encourage more people to talk/discuss all things heli's. It tends to just end up a slanging match on web forums and that's not the aim. There are safety evenings run at flying schools etc but i'd want this different. Inherent risks of heli's etc????
I just know we will read about more bad news this year on pprune and no doubt some will know the people involved.

[VeeAny]

Helimutt

I think you are right there is a need to put together some local pilot meets around the country, I tried to do this in the South East a couple of years ago and the CAA where amenable to putting on a helicopter safety evening given enough notice. Unfortunately I moved to the South West and it never happened.

Maybe we should look to putting something together with regards to a rough schedule for the evenings and get some people involved from around the country, and of all experience levels to try and reduce accidents in the UK.

Cheers

Gary

[jetbox 21]

With this pilot today, A very nice Guy & my thoughts are with their families.

[KNIEVEL77]

Just driven back to Newcastle from Glasgow today in terrible weather and the very thought crossed my mind as to the limitations of flying helicopters in windy conditions then came home to read this.

My thoughts are obviously with the families concerned and with regard to suggestions about informal meets i'd be happy to try and arrange something in the North East, perhaps at Wings at Newcastle Airport if anyone would be interested.

[helimutt]

Gary, I think it would be a great idea but as soon as you start to say things like CAA involvement etc, then I feel the idea is lost and people switch off a bit. My gut feeling is that you would have more success at getting people to come and meet up and chat if it was in a relaxed informal environment with only pilots/people with an interest and questions to ask over a beer or something. Why don't we see if we can sort something. If anyone in the Yorkshire/N.Lincolnshire area/Newcastle area wants to arrange something or can suggest something, i'll be there. We usd to meet up at Newcastle Aero Club a few years ago but it only really involved the guys learning to fly helis up there at the time, and we didn't have PPRuNe to help get people interested.

[ASWFlyer]

Rest in Peace - how awful for this to happen.

I know the CAA do some safety evenings around the UK in flying club houses sometimes. I must say, the plan you suggest sounds like a great idea!

Cheers

ASWFlyer.

[helimutt]

starting a new thread on meetings etc due thread creep here.

[gadget1212]

Im very sorry to hear about this tragic accident and my thoughts go out to all involved especislly the family and friends. Just one question if anybody knows, where was the heli picked up from?

[AndrewTaylor]

I flew from Huddersfield to Hull, then Beverely today in a 44 at 12.30pm. Flying Easterly at 1500 on 1012, I was doing a AS of 100knots, with a GS of 126ish. Granted it was windy, but there is no way is was unsafe especially for a machine like a Gazelle. Returning at 3.30, my AS was 100, and GS 70. When I landed at back at E/Moor Nr. Huddersfield LBA APP was saying 220/18 Gusting 34.

When you hear of crashes, no matter what the circumstances, doesn't it make you want to fu**ing cry? So so sorry for all concerned.

[Peter-RB]

To the Guy Named Phil,

Simple way of doing is , PRINT THE TRUTH........If you really must,

. But for Gods sake wait till the two peoples families have had time for all this to sink in, and then think how it would be if YOUR family heard the same tragic news about you!


Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb

[Torquetalk]

Would appreciate a pm with the initials of the pilot. I'm particularly concerned that it is someone I know.

TT

[Senior Pilot]

Rotorheads,

With respect to the pilot, please note:

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.

[SilsoeSid]

AndrewTaylor,

Granted it was windy, but there is no way is was unsafe especially for a machine like a Gazelle.....
......When I landed at back at E/Moor Nr. Huddersfield LBA APP was saying 220/18 Gusting 34.


18 gusting 34 from the South West!

The 'H' is on the grass, just to the right of the concrete 'circle' just left of centre and up a bit.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/ruddingPark.jpg

[heli-mad]

.....we've been down that route before with threads concerning accidents i.e Colin Mcrae... We dont know it was the wind, do we? The arggument is that when you do fly in difficult conditions and the fatigue level is ..to YOUR limit..what happens if you have an oil pressure drop??? Lets not speculate what happened.....wait for the AAIB report.

Good idea about getting people invlolved to discuss saftey.

RIP

H-M

[Flyer2008]

Its times like this that such an accident make you think especially when you know the deceased personally.

For those who are pointing fingers its too early to say and rumours are already evident on here.

Its far too early to learn the cause and its cause should be left to the professionals at the AAIB.

Whatever the cause, whatever the reasons behind this tragic accident i'm sure you will all be with me in passing our deepest sympathy at this time to the remaining family of the deceased.

RIP

[Torquetalk]

Well said Flyer.

It's terrible news

RIP

TT

[nigelh]

i think it was a yugo machine flown in from Stapleton.

[rotorspeed]

Does anyone have any broad idea what actually happened, if not why it happened? Was the accident on take off, landing or cruise? Presumably one of the former if it was near Rudding Park, where I would have thought there would have been a few witnesses.

[hedfan]

Any idea of the registration, if you have please send me a PRIVATE email. NOT PRESS ! but could be involved from tech side.

[md 600 driver]

rotorspeed

Does anyone have any broad idea what actually happened, if not why it happened? Was the accident on take off, landing or cruise? Presumably one of the former if it was near Rudding Park, .

Unfortunately every seems to presume what happened, mostly getting it wrong ! i just wondered why you said the former when the helicopter was staying at rudding park its best not to speculale and wait for the reports and more than likely video evidence of what actually happened [ lots of people have cameras in phones now ]

[rotorspeed]

md 600

I'm not asking anyone to speculate. Just say if they have heard what appeared to happen from any witnesses/reports. And let's not get into all the tedious "wait until the official report" blah blah stuff. Of course I'm not expecting a definitive cause or seeking to elicit responsibility - that will indeed correctly come from the AAIB investigation.

[helimutt]

I'm sure the news report said accident as they took off from the site. If it was a gazelle, downwind or crosswind would not be fun in strong or gusty conditions.

[rotorspeed]

Ok, thanks helimutt. Agree.

[Fake Sealion]

From BBC News - The two fatalities reported as a huband & wife.

[papa oscar]

Names have been released - ITV news

[serf]

And the online daily mail quotes some of you.

[kwachon]

And this is the crap being reported when people start making assumptions on Forums.

Online Daily Mail,


However Internet forums used by helicopter pilots have suggested the windy weather was a factor, and some who claimed to know Mr Spencer said he was an inexperienced pilot and had only just taken delivery of the aircraft.
Strong winds had buffeted much of the north of England on Friday, and although they had begun to die down, conditions were still blustery. One, calling himself Nigel H, wrote: "Gazelle just delivered today. Sounds like he couldn't resist having a play later on. I would not have been up there today.

Will we ever learn to shut up online and wait for the AIB to publish their findings instead of writing such rubbish for newspaper hacks to pick up on and distort!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Scissorlink]

deleted: quite the wrong thing to say :=

[Fake Sealion]

Kwachon

You have a point....to a degree.
However, I have read the Daily Mail piece and cannot see any "distortion" it merely directly quoted some of the posts.
Myself and at least two other posters on this thread are current or former Gazelle pilots and live local to and know the accident site terrain. It has merely been commented on that any crosswind/downwind element in the prevailing high gust conditions yesterday would have been very demanding in a Gazelle.

If you think that is "rubbish"- will be interested to hear why.

[kwachon]

newspaper hacks to pick up on and distort!!!

If you read carefully My argument is with the newspaper hacks distorting what they read on the forums, I happen to be dual rated with 1200hrs rotary so am not ignorant to the fact that winds play on a helicopter.

"Gazelle just delivered today. Sounds like he couldn't resist having a play later on.

How can anyone justify that statement without being there first hand.

Look, I am not going to get into a pissing contest over this but just feel that sometimes armchair quarterbacks should go and log on to the NFL forum.

[HeliEng]

The Daily Mail have excelled themselves with the photograph, couldn't even find a picture of a Gazelle! A squirrel production line was the best that they could muster!

What a load of sh*t

[helimutt]

Kwackon, maybe we should ask the owners of this site to change the name to UPPFaNe?? (Unprofessional Pilots Fact Network?). The things we post do usually have some relevance. I think there is very often a wx element when we hear of an incident. SO is everyone saying the wx is never a factor? Always seems to be foggy/windy/raining/low cloud/icing conditions.
Do we also never take low experience on type into account, in the exact conditions which cause particular types to be more of a handful than at other times?
When you factor certain things together they sometimes make a lot of sense. That's all that people usually work with on here without knowing all of the facts. Hell, it's called a 'rumour' network. Yes we should always wait for the investigators to come up with their findings, but while we wait, is there really any harm in speculating sensibly?
I think not.

[kwachon]

So you think my second quote is harmless speculation?. Like I said, not going to get into it, said my piece and thats that.

[helimutt]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and the Moderators do a good job of removing anything questionable.

[mark.roebuck]

Not a big speeker but I sometime get a bit anooyed with loads of oppinions,
as a pilot with a good few hours, not sure weather this fault truly lies with the pilot, but it seems that someone with such a great experiance of comercial flight would take such a risk.The conclusion may never be known, a very sad inccident.
Thoughts with everyone

Mark

[Colonal Mustard]

May i remind people that two people have lost their lives in an accident involving machinery that most of us use/have used on a regular basis, whilst speculation is human nature the accident is just over 24hrs old, the family of those involved may well trawl the internet for answers to their grief (maybe they wont), good old google will point them in this direction if the relevant "keywords" are used,i for one enjoy the various debates in the site but feel on this occasion that we need to draw a line:=

A time and place for a debate maybe but not just yet?...dont wish to start arguments just remember that what is written may be read at some point in time by family of those deceased,i suggest we keep this back on track, let the thread develop when prelim findings are out maybe??

Sincere condolences to the family.

[Fan Marker]

These threads always degenerate into this kind of negative and unhelpful bickering. I think it is pathetic.

[YOP]

Don't get involved too often with thread discussions but I'm with kwachon on this one. Yes it's a rumour network but we're all adults and we know how the press don't always report the bare facts when there's much more interesting speculation which makes better copy.

I wasn't there so I don't know whether the wind was a factor or not. With over 6000 hours rotary I don't know if I would have flown in the prevailing conditions or not because I wasn't there. In fact no one was there except the pilot in question. Surely it's common decency when we know that our conjecture could well be published that we refrain from being armchair AAIB investigators especially when the unfortunate pilot concerned is deceased. How much better will his relatives feel when the Mail reports in the weeks to come that the engine failed at a crucial point in the transition and that the outcome was unavoidable; when the pilot's reputation has already been smeared, helped on however unwittingly by ourselves. The engine may not have failed but just like the weather being a factor we don't know. Have the grace to give a dead pilot who can't defend himself the benefit of the doubt, at least until the professionals prove otherwise.

[nigelh]

Kwachon...you quote me .......One, calling himself Nigel H, wrote: "Gazelle just delivered today. Sounds like he couldn't resist having a play later on. I would not have been up there today.
I believe it was just delivered. I did say "sounds like " due to the fact that there are other methods of transport and it had been left by a professional just hours before and been tied down for the night ....as i am told.
I repeat that i would not have wanted to fly that day in a squirrel which has similar performance . Even today, with less wind, the turbulence flying near to that area was extreme at times to the extent that i called leeds atc to warn other pilots. I am not saying that the wind WAS a factor but what i am saying is that he should have shut down for the night OR kept his safety pilot for that last fateful flight.
As pointed out before , this is a rumour network ....are you saying we should effectively be closed down due to the possibility of press reading ?? With the initiative of the safety meetings maybe something positive could come out of this dreadful thing.

[kwachon]

I did not quote you, I quoted what was written in the Mail who quoted you, if you read your original quote you will see that the newspaper was selective in what they printed. Had they printed the full quote the context would have been much different.
Of course you should be free to say what you want, but in the early part of the thread (#24) a reporter did identify himself as looking for any information, that my friend is always a flag that what is to be written might not truly reflect what was said and indeed was the case here.

[SilsoeSid]

"Leave it to the AAIB"

Firstly, who's to say it wasn't a technical problem?
Must we always blame the pilot first?

Looking at the picture below and going on the post by 'AndrewTaylor', as a generalisation, the wind was 220/18 Gusting 34.

The 'H' is to the right of the concrete circle, top left of centre.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/ruddingPark.jpg

[Hiduly Damper]

Hi Guys,
Does anybody know the reg of the aircraft? Was it a recently registered Hungarian machine? I have a sneaking suspecion that I used to fly this aircraft.
Throughly sad to see two more members of our aviation community die in such tragic circumstances.
Sincere condolences to the family.

[SilsoeSid]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1302563,00.html

"Their family and friends have been left devastated by the tragedy, but can take comfort that at the time of the accident they were in one of their favourite places together and doing something they both loved."

[Hughesy]

Didn't you get the hint when your first puerile post was deleted? :rolleyes:

[md 600 driver]

Hiduly Damper

it wasnt a hungarian registered machine and was not 241 as you thought

it was a ex uk registered [G,SKUL ] a stretch gazelle 341g now on the yugo reg it was flown to the hotel by its owner who also had a safety pilot with him .

steve

[DaveReidUK]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "stretch gazelle" ?

[md 600 driver]

stretch gazelle

its model of gazelle where the cabin has been extended by the original manufacturer to give extra leg room to passengers or extra load space it is slightly longer [by approx 8 inches afiak]

[DaveReidUK]

Thanks, I can see that 8 inches would be a worthwhile legroom increase for presumably a modest increase in cost.

I'll pay more attention to Gazelles in future !

[Whirlybird]

On relatives etc...

When I was about 20, a good friend of mine died in a freak accident relating to a faulty gas heater. I was devastated; I'd never, at that time, lost someone close to me in an accident. But what made it a million times worse was the lack of information. No-one would say what happened. They all clammed up, saying an official investigation was needed. They treated friends and relatives with kid gloves, when some would have welcomed any sort of discussion and speculation, as a way of doing something.

Everyone's different. I suspect that in the this case the last thing that many relatives would want to do is get on the internet and listen to a load of people like us! But those that do would be people like I was at 20, who wanted truth, openness, discussion, entirely normal speculation and to be treated like an adult human being, not as a rather stupid child just because someone close to us had died. And if the press quote us, so be it. Most people are intelligent enough to realise that a journalist quoting a rumour forum is...just that! People don't lost their marbles just because someone close to them is killed.

So let's stop insulting each other and getting paranoid. This is a very sad incident, and prooners beating each other up doesn't help anyone. :(

[javelin]

A tragic accident indeed.

I live about 2 miles from Rudding Park and fly regularly from a strip locally. I am not a rotary wing pilot but 12,000 hour commercial/light aircraft pilot and aircraft builder.

The speculation about weather has to be taken into account. That afternoon I was logging in the paddock and there is no way I would have wanted to be flying, either fixed wing or rotary wing - yes I do know about helo's ability to handle turbulence.

We lost 4 tiles the night before, I was still recovering covers, bird tables etc that afternoon so IMHO, the only reason to be flying that afternoon would be by Rescue Services, it was not a pleasure flying day.

[Bronx]

What I dislike in threads of this sort is folk assuming pilot error before the facts are known. When the facts are known, we are then in a position to express an opinion. Until then it's just guess and hunch that might be very unfair to a pilot

Also, families may not read this forum but there's a good chance they'll read what the newspapers say about the crash and if the newspapers report criricisms of a pilot posted here by other pilots it's bound to upset them.
It's even worse when passengers are killed. Folk assuming pilot error is blaming a pilot for killing someone else.


Maybe there was pilot error in this crash maybe not. There could have been a major malfunction that caused the crash. Better to hold your horses until there's some facts to work on.

[galloping major]

Flew some very happy hours in G-SKUL with a previous owner. Bloody good machine and well loved.

Dave Reid UK the 7 inch stretch makes a huge legroom increase in the back.

By far my favourite of all helicopters is the stretch Gazelle.

[AlanM]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=510628&in_page_id=1770

Some direct quotes from this thread chaps.

However Internet forums used by helicopter pilots have suggested the windy weather was a factor, and some who claimed to know Mr Spencer said he was an inexperienced pilot and had only just taken delivery of the aircraft.

Strong winds had buffeted much of the north of England on Friday, and although they had begun to die down, conditions were still blustery.

One, calling himself Nigel H, wrote: "Gazelle just delivered today. Sounds like he couldn't resist having a play later on. I would not have been up there today."

Another, "Antarctic Chap", commented: "The landing site at Rudding is difficult even on a good day due to trees on the approach.

"With the winds as high as they have been today it would have been tricky to say the least. If only they could have waited until tomorrow to enjoy their new machine in hopefully lesser wind speeds."

Others claimed Mr Spencer only had 46 hours' flying experience in helicopters, although one said the businessman had flown the Gazelle to Denmark and back with a more experienced pilot. Neither staff at Country Baskets' headquarters in Ardsley East, near Leeds, nor the couple's fellow director, Stephen Wood, were prepared to comment.

[KNIEVEL77]

The Daily Mail Online allows readers to send in their own comments about a particular story and some of the comments published underneath this story are really out of order; does the Mail not moderate their 'comments' section?

[foxbat68]

Ex G-SKUL Aerospatiale SA-341G Gazelle

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/photos/middle/6/1/8/1051816.jpg

[foxbat68]

Daily Mail reader comments - Moderated for maximum public outrage, paranoia and ignorance usually. Sane, constructive comments rarely appear.

[KNIEVEL77]

Foxbat68............couldn't agree more, not that I usually buy the Mail but I for one certainly won't be giving it any of my money in the future!

[Fake Sealion]

Acknowledging this is a "side thread" to some extent, but what are the typical circumstances under which a UK registered a/c re-registers as a Serbian one. Assuming in this case the Gazelle was not intended to be flown extensivley in Serbia that is ?

[crumbo]

drove past yesterday and wondered what the police cars were about, i believe the air ambulance was operating on the friday and saturday (correct me if im wrong) but thats commercial pilots, in a different machine with lots of experience (forgive me im fixed wing) 46 hours??
does that mean this was a type rating????

[SilsoeSid]

KNIEVEL77 The Daily Mail Online allows readers to send in their own comments about a particular story and some of the comments published underneath this story are really out of order; does the Mail not moderate their 'comments' section?

A balancing post.

8 comments!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=510628&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true#StartComments


K77, Please explain...."Out of order"!

1. Helicopters are notoriously difficult to fly, too many people think they know it all, unfortunately they don't. Sad untimely deaths though.
They are, and they do!

2. Thats what its' all about nowadays. Status symbols, to kind of show off how much money you have and how successful you are.
Also the same reason why there is an anti-4x4 Brigade!

3. My thoughts are with this couple's family.
Is this out of order...I think not!

4. Anyone who is tempted to be spiteful - Paul and Linda were one of the most worthwhile couples you could ever meet.
Is this out of order...I think not!

5. Success in business will certainly supply the money with which to acquire a helicopter, it sadly won't however provide the experience to safely operate it.
Is this out of order...I think not!

6. They had only just left country baskets in East Ardsley about one hour before the crash.
Is this out of order...I think not!

7. It is about time these inexpierienced show-offs are stopped from flying these aircraft.
Inexperienced..possibly. Would you put a 17 year old in a Bugatti Veyron after a supervised trip from London to York and back?
Does an Ato B to A trip to Denmark help much? Show off....why not!?

8. What on earth is a "clinical team leader"? Yet more nu-Labour management speak!
???

[SilsoeSid]

Sky News
"Their family and friends have been left devastated by the tragedy, but can take comfort that at the time of the accident they were in one of their favourite places together and doing something they both loved."

Was I the only one to see it?
A light moment during dark days.

Having been to funerals of friends involved in helicopter crashes and heard the songs like 'Bright Side of Life' and 'Only Fools' to raise the occasion, perhaps we should learn to perhaps see a lighter side'.

[ShyTorque]

Sid, perhaps we should learn to perhaps see a lighter side'

Yes, but there is a limit, a time and a place. I thought your comment, which was presumably meant to teach us all to "see a lighter side", was just not funny and way OTT.

I read it yesterday and was a little surprised to see how long it remained here. I would imagine a comment like that could cause further distress to a relative; certainly to me it appeared completely heartless and unsympathetic.

Every accident victim is someone's parent, spouse, child, sibling or friend.
--------------------------

As far as speculation goes on the cause of accidents, after thirty one years of flying for a living, and having lost quite a number of friends, close aquaintances and colleagues, I just don't try. If I do discuss the possible cause, I keep it in tightly closed circles until we know, from correct evidence, what actually happened.

[SilsoeSid]

I have speculated nothing.

In fact I was the first to mention that perhaps there could be a technical reason how this incident occured and we shouldn't always blame the pilot as a first shot, which was implied from post 3.



Regarding my comment, perhaps we all deal with this sort of thing differently.
ATB
SS
:(

[ShyTorque]

Sid, Please note the line drawn under my comment about your post; The second para was a general comment.

[paco]

I'm with SilsoeSid - we all take death far too seriously. For something that is a fact of life (no pun intended) why should it come as a surprise that people die? Granted, some might die earlier than others but we all do it!

phil

[foxbat68]

SilloeSid,

We deal with these things are own way yes, but probably better to leave any levity on the situation to the privacy and reserve of those nearest and dearest, out of respect.

[yakyakyakyak]

was flying my gazelle at the same time,some 80 miles south.

if this ever happened to me or my family i really hope the ones left behind never discovered this web site.

RIP condolences to the family

[Flyer2008]

As someone who knew the deceased I must say i'm pleased to see that the moderator has removed inappropriate postings.

Now is not the time to criticise or pass judgement.

If only some people had more common sense than some comments shown.

It is a really sad loss of life and those of us around the deceased family and friends can clearly see the effect that this tragic loss has so far had on everyone concerned.

The deceased loved each other very much and at least passed away together in a place that they loved very much.

To those that have passed judgement and criticism please show some respect that some friends and assocaites like myself are reading this thread.

[Senior Pilot]

I have only just become aware that the deceased pilot, Paul Spencer, was one of our Rotorheads who posted as escapada.

Regardless of all that has been said here so far, it should remind us of the frailty of life, and how easily it can be taken from us. To the family and friends of Paul, our deepest sympathy.

[Flyer2008]

Senior Pilot

Paul and his Wife Linda shall be deeply missed.

I shall ensure that your Thoughts and Sympathy are passed onto the remaining family and i'm sure will be greatfully received.

[mitch61]

As someone who lives local to this accident and knows Rudding Park very well, I wanted to register just so I could express how sad this was, as we saw this helicopter earlier in the day flying.

I also think its sad the amount of bickering that went on regarding who said what in the forums, !

I know its a rumour site but lets wait and see what the reports say and then a meaningful decussion maybe had.

Life is precious and we should all remember that

Our best wishes go to the family

[r44raven]

Well said, Senior Pilot. However, I echo the comments of yakyakyakyak and, should something fail catastrophically or I have a serious visit from Mr Cockup, hope my family would not find this forum. Also, the comments that found their way from here onto some of the on line newspapers,and were mixed with those from the begrudgers and the "if God had meant us to fly" brigade, killed off the little faith I had left in human nature :(

[Max Shutterspeed]

As a newcomer, I was surprised at how insensitive people on this particular thread were. I was a regular visitor before to a UK climbing/mountain forum and as some of you will know many of the followers of this pursuit are strong, non-conformist and individualistic types who do not suffer fools gladly and will readilly tell anyone to f off as they see fit. However, whenever a tragedy arose, the tact and compassion sensed in almost all of the posts arriving on the new thread was impressive. Relatives came onto those threads and said how touched they were by the dozens of posts from fellow climbers and mountain lovers. At the same time, I visited the newspaper websites and - just as with some flying accidents - vile ignorant abuse from smug, armchair dictators and killjoys spilled forth.

I've not been posting for long and while while I don't get let loose at the controls, I spend a fair amount of my life around fixed and rotary, so read these things with an interest, hopefully not a ghoulish one.

One thing I've noticed in the last few months is that there's not much love in the room right now. I'm happy to see suitably qualified professionals shoot down the muppets and the press, they deserve it. But come on, guys, time for a group hug for all the pro's.;)

MS, ducking a baseball bat..

[Fake Sealion]

Yesterday I just caught the end of a feature about this accident on local TV News in Yorkshire. Implied some sort of report has been published.
Can't find any reference on AAIB website.

Can anyone throw some light on this?

[Flyer2008]

Report not yet published.

[md 600 driver]

it will be aaib bulletin 11/2009 and placed on aaib web page www.aaib.gov.uk

on the 12th november 2009 [tomorrow ]

[JTobias]

Hi

Are these published at the same interval each month e.g. the 12th of every month or the 2nd Thursday every month?

Joel :ok:

[Fake Sealion]

It would appear this TV news department has had some access to the content of the AAIB report before its publication.
Or...perhaps there is some other format of publication of reports preceding the posting of a Pdf on the AAIB website?

[Fake Sealion]

The item concerning this accident was broadcast on the Inside Out programme (Yorkshire version) on Mon Nov 9th - its now available on i-player.

[VeeAny]

The report is now published http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Aerospatiale%20Westland%20SA%20341G%20Gazelle,%20YU-HEW%2011-09.pdf .

[ShyTorque]

So, another tragic yet totally avoidable accident.

Proving yet again that helicopters can, and do, bite the inexperienced, unwary or overconfident.

[Agaricus bisporus]

As do bicycles, kitchen knives and electric fires.

Misuse them, abuse them or be careless in their use and you'll get hurt.

The avoidance of that is the operator's responsibility, is it not?

[Bertie Thruster]

Yet whenever I use a bicycle, kitchen knife or electric fire almost guaranteed sudden death or serious maiming isn't on my mind if I get it just ever so slightly wrong.

[John R81]

Not sure that the "helicopters can bite" thread is the critical issue in this case.

I thought that the thrust of the report was that the pilot was unwary (or otherwise unable to control the helicopter) because he may not have received adequate training and that he may not have been adequately examined before being issued with a license.

I am not an aviation lawyer by training (another area of law is my interest), but it seems to me that the training organisation, the instructor and the examiner may all be open to claims for financial compensation. If I were a family member, I would be looking into that.

Do we know if any other legal actions are pending as a result of this incident and investigation?

[Agaricus bisporus]

You aren't guaranteed sudden death or serious maiming if you get it "ever so slightly wrong" in a helicopter either, or none of us would be here now. You have to do something very badly wrong/foolish for that. Like going flying in a in a gale with next to no experience...In which case one would think the likely result would be pretty obvious.

[Torquetalk]

What a sad and terrible accident and, as many had suspected, completely avoidable.

With such a paltry number of rotorcraft hours he could not possibly have been at CPL standard [across a range of skills and situations]. Were his trainers carried-away with his enthusiasm and the self-assurance that came from his fixed-wing experience?

Over-confidence is a killer. And hazardous attitudes leap out from the report.


RIP Paul and Linda

[Flyingmac]

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Crash pilot 'ignored strong wind' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8355946.stm)

A couple died in a helicopter crash in weather conditions more experienced pilots may have avoided, a report said.
Businessman Paul Spencer, 43, and his wife Linda, 59, of Brighouse, West Yorkshire, died when their aircraft crashed in North Yorkshire in 2008.
The Air Accidents Investigation Branch has compiled a report on the crash.
It said Mr Spencer's "enthusiasm of having just taken delivery" of the aircraft may have overcome any concerns about strong and gusty wind conditions.
The Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) concluded the main contributing factors to the accident were Mr Spencer's "lack of experience and probable inadequacies in his training".
Had his pilot colleagues known that Mr Spencer was intending to fly, "they would have tried to dissuade him from doing so", the AAIB said.
'Limited experience'
The report also said Mr Spencer, although experienced in flying fixed-wing aircraft, had only just qualified to fly helicopters.
The AAIB said its investigation had revealed "inconsistencies, and probably deficiencies" in Mr Spencer's training and his subsequent helicopter private pilot licence skills test.
The Gazelle helicopter crashed near a chalet the couple owned in the grounds of the Rudding Park hotel near Harrogate on the afternoon of 26 January 2008.The report said Mr Spencer, a wholesale food entrepreneur, had expected to meet his family when he arrived at the chalet but found they had gone on a shopping trip to nearby Knaresborough.
The couple then took off in the Gazelle and circled the area of the shopping centre before flying back towards the hotel grounds.
The report said: "From the evidence it appears that the pilot, who had limited helicopter experience, was attempting to operate in weather conditions which more experienced pilots might have chosen to avoid."
The AAIB continued: "It is possible that the enthusiasm of having just taken delivery of the aircraft overcame any concerns about the weather.
"It is also possible that the same enthusiasm led to the low-level nature of the flight around the shopping centre where family members were believed to be present."
The AAIB made a number of recommendations, including asking the UK's Civil Aviation Authority to look at helicopter pilot training regulations.

[Chopper Doc]

On a more important note will the CAA now take action to make sure that PPLs are trained properly and have some active oversight of RTFs. It seems to me that money was at the root of this accident.
An unwillingness on the part of the deceased to spend money on proper training and complete the correct number of hours and a lack of interest by the CAA in maintaining standards in RTFs by failing to check on what they are doing and waiting for the **** to hit the fan or someone to complain.
It will also be interesting to see if the CAA or EASA change the rules on choosing your examiner as opposed to one being provided at random. I can't imagine that someone would even give you a license to drive a car if you got to choose your driving examiner.

[JimL]

Chopper Doc,

All of those issues are covered in the report; as a matter of interest, recommendations that are addressed at the CAA are only rarely not acted upon.

They usually result from an agreed text.

Jim

[Torquetalk]

@ Chopper Doc

woah boy! Ease up on those accusations and hoofs firmly back in the info we have from the report.

1) There is no suggestion that the pilot did not do the requisite hours for his PPL(H). The student and instructor recorded the training to suit their purposes chronologically because the authorisations weren't in place when they wanted to do it - anti-authority.

2) Money was not an issue - impatience and negligent training were.

3) The deficiency in training in this instance and the evident lack of discipline by some pilots does not mean that RTF training is deficient in itself. The regulations and syllabus are in place, that some people don't adhere to theme is at issue. Greater inspection is already a recommendation.

4) An appointed examiner may have the effect of guaranteeing standards. Or it may not. It would certainly mean people waiting longer for check rides - think of the consequences not just for initial PPL licences but commercial ops.

[FLY 7]

"........it seems to me that the training organisation, the instructor and the examiner may all be open to claims for financial compensation. If I were a family member, I would be looking into that.

Do we know if any other legal actions are pending as a result of this incident and investigation? "


No doubt there are lawyers somewhere rubbing their hands with glee. :ugh:

[ShyTorque]

You aren't guaranteed sudden death or serious maiming if you get it "ever so slightly wrong" in a helicopter either, or none of us would be here now. You have to do something very badly wrong/foolish for that. Like going flying in a in a gale with next to no experience...In which case one would think the likely result would be pretty obvious.

Mushroom,

Thanks for the advice but I said,

So, another tragic yet totally avoidable accident.

Proving yet again that helicopters can, and do, bite the inexperienced, unwary or overconfident.

I didn't say sudden death or maiming, that came from your keyboard.

I stand by my words.

[toptobottom]

Regarding financial compensation, I'd be interested to hear how the insurance process progressed after this accident. It's impossible to get insurance in the UK on a gazelle (click here (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/380980-gazelle-uninsurable-new-owners.html)) as a low time PPL, but these Yugo (and Hungarian?) machines enjoy extremely cheap premiums with minimal acceptance criteria. If dear Paul had relied on UK insurance, this accident wouldn't have happened at all...

TTB

[toptobottom]

ivor the driver

I think you'll find that there are more civil gazelles in the UK today (which have a full C of A) than ex-mils (which do need a permit to fly, with all the restrictions that brings). Regarding dodgy maintenance histories, do you think it's only a gazelle that could suffer from this?!!

My point is that many PPL(H)s look(ed) at gazelles because they are fast and cheap; unfortunately, a lot of these PPL(H)s didn't have the experience to fly them safely and that is why Haywards imposed such demanding acceptance criteria.

[ILblog]

Thak you very much for posting link to this report. The Gazelle pilot had 800+ hrs on fixed planes, but was fresh PPL(H). He made short version of PPL(H), and this was one of his first solo flights in overhauled helicopter.

I hope my fate will be different:

I have 800+ on fixed planes. I will finish my PPL(H) soon (short version). And my new helicopter is just ready in hangar.

What to do in order to survive?

Respect weather. Respect machine. Fly with safety pilot or instructor as much as possible for first year. Gain experience slowlly and safelly. What can I do more?

[KNIEVEL77]

Please excuse my ignorance but what is a PPL(H) 'short version', is not the legal requirement a minimum of 45 hours come what may with the average being around 60 hours!

And as with a car driving test, is it not the case that you only pass if your tester feels you are competent enough and have the relevant skills to be qualified to drive/fly/hold a licence?

[VeeAny]

K77

You are allowed 10% up to a maximum 6hrs of your previous experience as an aeroplane licence holder off the 45hr requirement for a JAA licence, so some pilots can bring the minimum down to 39hrs.

GS

[KNIEVEL77]

Thanks Gary, sorry for the dumb question.

[SilsoeSid]

There I stood looking at the weather, yes it may well be 'in limits', but while watching an R44 lifting into the murk and rain heading South, I stand thinking...

EGBB 122150Z AUTO 25010KT 210V290 5000NDV +RA FEW007/// SCT010/// BKN016/// 09/08 Q0995 REDZ


...think I'll have another brew!

[Heli-Ice]

ILblog

I guess you are spot on. Respect for these things, ongoing training and you should be ok.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Shytawk, if you took the trouble to read what was written you wouldn't need to make such self-righteous snidey (and incorrect) :ugh:remarks. Silly billy...

[Whirlygig]

What was actually incorrect about ShyTorque's post? Are you saying that helcopters can't, and don't, bite the inexperienced, wary and cautious? :}

Cheers

Whirls

[ShyTorque]

Agaricus,

I think the "snidey" remarks came from yourself in your own responses here. I can only assume that you are on a completely different line of thought to myself and perhaps two other contributors.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain your obvious strong objection to my comments. :confused:

[Bravo73]

BBC News - Instructor charged over Rudding Park death flight (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-16986604)

A flight instructor will appear in court over a helicopter crash which killed a millionaire and his wife.

Paul and Linda Spencer from Brighouse, died in the crash at Rudding Park, near Harrogate, on 26 January 2008.

Ian King, of Wetherby, West Yorkshire, is due at Haywards Heath Magistrates' Court, West Sussex, on 24 February.

He is charged with intent to deceive, making a false representation for the purpose of procuring for Mr Spencer the granting of a private pilot's licence.

The allegation relates to the instruction and examination Mr Spencer undertook for his private pilot's licence in December 2007, the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) said.

Mr Spencer, 43, and his wife, 59, had just returned from a holiday in the Caribbean when they were killed.

The couple, who ran Country Baskets, a business which sold dried flowers, were regular visitors to the Rudding Park Hotel.

Flight examiner John Jackson was charged with making or omitting entries, or destroying a log book which should have been kept, a CAA spokesman said.

He received a conditional discharge at Haywards Heath Magistrates' Court on 3 February

[helimutt]

Hope this turns out ok for the person accused. :hmm:

[MightyGem]

Well, it says he received a conditional discharge, which means this:
In England and Wales, a conditional discharge is a sentence vitiating the finding of guilt in which the offender receives no punishment provided that, in a period set by the court (not more than three years), no further offence is committed. If an offence is committed in that time, then the offender may also be re-sentenced for the offence for which a conditional discharge was given. Pursuant section 14 of the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 [4] and R v Patel [2006] EWCA Crim 2689[5] the conditional discharge does not constitute a conviction unless the individual breaches the conditional discharge and is re-sentenced

[jellycopter]

You can't beleive all you read in the press (or pprune), but at least they got the conditional discharge bit right. I won't give further details as the prosecution is still ongoing for the instructor. JJ

[JTobias]

All

It's amazing how the press and others are able to use phraseology that completely distorts the facts. The CAA have prosecuted this case only because of the (very regrettable) accident and subsequent deaths.

I'm reasonably privy to the circumstances and this accident would almost certainly have occurred - particularly because the aircraft was a gazelle, was being flown by a very low time PPL (H) and in conditions outside the capability of many experienced helicopter pilots. The examiners, totally un-related involvement, were not a factor in the incident.

The 'offence' committed by the examiner was so slight as to be insignificant. In fact the CAA have subsequently (not connected with this incident) changed their rules and had the examiner concerned done the same thing now, he would not have not committed any 'offence'.

It was a witch hunt from the start. and the fact that a conditional discharge was given, proves that. It's a pure technicality that an absolute discharge wasn't given instead of the conditional one.

Hopefully now, the examiner can put this situation behind him and carry on teaching and examining. He's one of the best I know, hugely talented and anyone that has flown with him or been examined by him will have benefited in many aspects not least of which is flight safety.

And, on a final note, he's also responsible for the fact that two very good friends of mine are still walking and talking today after the helicopter they were flying in suffered a serious mechanical failure 30 seconds before entering the London Helicopter lanes not so long ago. If you're in the sh*t in a helicopter, other than g-d sat next to you, this is the guy you want sat beside you.

Yes, I'm his mate - and proud to be - but I'm a straight talker, I'm sensible and objective and the prosecution was a load of bo**ocks from the start.

Joel :ugh:

[nigelh]

Hear Hear :ok: totally correct in all you say . They always seem to go for the good guys dont they !!!!

[Whirlybird]

Without knowing any details or the people concerned, I still find it very scary that an instructor and examiner can be prosecuted for events caused by an ex-student's own choices, long after they were involved. I don't think I want to do any more instructing if this sort of thing can happen - and I bet I'm not the only one who feels that way!

[Bravo73]

Whirly,

I also know little about the situation (other than posting the link to the BBC story which, incidentally, also appeared in the Daily Telegraph). But were the gentlemen in question charged due to events on the fateful day or was it maybe due to inconsistencies or irregularities with paperwork or other documentation that only came to light because of the AAIB investigation? That's certainly the impression that I get from reading the media reports.

[helirobin]

all,
I totally agree with JTobias, I know the examiner and have flown with him on several occassions; I cannot imagine anybody being able to impart safe flying within ones own capabilities better than this gentleman; he is a total professional and it is a priveledge to know him.

[nigelh]

The only part of this fiasco that i find extraordinary is that you all seem to be surprised !!! After many years of thieving from operators ( and very wisely staying away from the small one man bands who are far too wily for them :D) and working hard to reduce GA in this country ....the CAA are operating exactly how one would expect them to !! Now if they did something that actually made flying safer and, god forbid , cheaper ....then you can all be surprised with good cause . Until then accept the fact that you are working in a dying industry with the CAA sitting there in judgement often with little or no actual experience . They will not be satisfied until the regulate the whole industry into a coffin !! Very soon all the FAA licenced pilots will have to have ratings for every type in spite of having flown happily and safely on their FAA tickets . More jobs for the boys followed by less pilots bothering . This is a story that will not have a happy ending :{

[Thomas coupling]

Can someone expand on this case pour moi?

What are the CPS saying then? What exactly are they alleging the instructor did?

[nigelh]

Technical Beaurocratic nit picking with regards to where instructional flights took off and landed etc They used radar records I believe . I don't think instructors are paid enough now ......

[Exo.]

Instructors are never paid enough, but that's not really the point.

Is it not pretty important for logbooks to be kept accurate and up to date with regards to training, as well as student files to be kept so that a sensible and ongoing assessment of ability and training position can be made?

While it may not have altered the outcome of the flight ultimately, correctly kept logs and student documentation would have removed any concerns over the nature of the training and any inadequacies highlighted therein.

It's not just arse covering, it's good practice to be sure that the student is as well prepared and ready for the real world as is possible. And as highlighted before, an examiner can only pass or fail based on the standard of flight demonstrated on the day, and advise a candidate on the attitudes shown throughout...

[jayteeto]

Nit picking? The rules about instruction from licenced airfields/heliports blah blah blah are well documented. I can't see the point, you can't see the point, the rules are silly, but they ARE the rules. Interesting how radar tapes can be used as Big Brother these days. I know how professional the examiner is, I consider him as a good friend and would choose him to fly my family around anytime. However, if the instructor cut corners by playing the system (even though it didn't affect instructional quality), it portrays him as a rule breaker and questions his integrity if he post dates flights.
I am totally sympathetic, however when you do things like this you just cannot complain if you are caught. Put the yellow pages down the back of your pants and accept the spanking, then move on.

[Arthur Mo]

Even slight rule-bending by an instructor when instructing a student who (like many successful private owners) is used to doing as they please could take the student out of the realm of seeing flying as a 'everything-by-the-book' activity into an 'expanding-the-envelope' activity.

If the instructor rigidly enforces the rules, it can't fail to have an impact on the student, and make them more likely to remain safer.

The flip side is that a pilot who is trained to see flying as solely adherence to a set of rules is less likely to be able to instinctively act creatively when faced with difficult scenarios.

I don't know which is best.

Arfur.

[170']

Nigel H

'Very soon all the FAA licenced pilots will have to have ratings for every type in spite of having flown happily and safely on their FAA tickets'

Are you just saying this to emphasize the way things are going generally, or is there something in the air about Type ratings being introduced for light helos also?

Thanks...170

[Whirlybird]

Bravo73 and others,
I don't know any details about this case, and I agree that instructors and examiners should stick to the rules etc - of course they should. But most people, instructors included, are guilty of occasionally forgetting to dot all the 'i's and cross all the 't's. I find it a dangerous precedent that, after an accident, the CAA can look at the pilot's student records from way back to see if the instructor did everything perfectly - and more importantly recorded it all. Admittedly, this was a very new PPL. But it might not have been. Where do we draw the line? Could they/would they look back 10, 20 years and say, "Ah, it isn't obvious that the pilot was taught 360 degree autos during his course; I can't find any record of it; so we'll blame his original instructor for the accident"? Maybe I'm over-reacting here, but I do find it a bit worrying.

[Exo.]

5 years.

You keep the records for five years. It's not an unreasonable period of time, after which one would expect other circumstances to have overridden a pilot's initial training.

I think there's a difference between crossing i's and dotting t's and changing dates of flights, and altering the origins and destinations. Looking through our own school's records, there is an overabundance of paperwork to it, and parts of it historically were not fully completed, however tech logs and student notes must be correlated, and they must all now pass a quality audit prior to a skills test.

It's especially unfortunate given that it's entirely plausible that the FI correctly taught every facet of the training, but because of the manner in which things were fudged, nobody can tell!

[nigelh]

In a month or two you will no longer be allowed to fly a UK reg helicopter with a FAA ticket . You can apparently as a one off get a type rating on the helicopter you fly taking you to early next year . Then , as i read it , you will have to have a European licence to fly ANY reg heli in this country . That means a type rating for every helicopter you fly ...regardless of the fact you may have thousands of hours on type . The cost , not to mention time spent , getting say 2 twins and 5 singles on your licence will be huge .
How they stop you using an FAA licence to fly an N reg i dont know :ugh: I think a lot of pilots who currently own and fly N reg will be giving up if this happens .

[170']

Thanks Nigel...

[MightyGem]

After many years of thieving from operators
Slight thread drift. We want to change our shift pattern from 6 Days 3 Off, 4 Nights 5 Off, to 3D 3N, 5O, 1D 3N, 3O. Not a problem...upon the payment of £600!!!

[Epiphany]

So I can't fly a UK registered helicopter on an FAA licence? Shocking.

Bye NIgel.

[N707ZS]

From a local paper.

Millionaire pilot had not flown enough to qualify for licence before fatal crash, court told (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/10136760.Millionaire_pilot_had_not_flown_enough_to_qualify_f or_licence_before_fatal_crash__court_told/)

A MILLIONAIRE killed in a helicopter crash with his wife kept an unofficial log book of his training which revealed he had not completed enough hours to qualify for his pilot's licence, a jury heard today (January 2).

Paul Spencer was only able to obtain his licence because his flight instructor, Ian King, falsified the records of his instruction, it was alleged.

But the official log book was exposed as "a lie" when an alternative version was found among the wealthy businessman's papers after he and wife Linda, 59, were killed.

The Westland Gazelle aircraft crashed at the Rudding Park Hotel, near Harrogate, while being flown by Mr Spencer, Leeds Crown Court heard.

After the tragedy in January 2008 - only about a month after 43-year-old Mr Spencer was issued with his private pilot's licence - the Civil Aviation Authority launched an investigation.

According to the official record of his training submitted by Mr King, of Wetherby, North Yorkshire, Mr Spencer had completed more than 51 hours of training, including the required ten hours of solo flight. The minimum required total hours is 40.

But the logbook kept by the businessman, from Brighouse, West Yorkshire, recorded little more than eight-and-a-half hours of solo flight.

Martin Goudie, prosecuting, said: "We are not here to decide why the helicopter crashed or whether Paul Spencer was a good pilot.

"What we are here to look at is the training that took place of Mr Spencer.

"Following the crash, an investigation was carried out into the circumstances surrounding it.

"Mr Spencer's licence had been issued on December 21 2007, a month before the crash, and King was his flying instructor.

"He had certified Mr Spencer had completed the required training and certified the log book as correct.

"As papers were gone through following Mr Spencer's death they found a different set of hours - they weren't the same hours and they didn't amount to the correct hours to complete the training."

Analysis of the businessman's online activity and phone records showed he was making calls and dealing with emails at many times when he was supposed to be in the air.

They also used a Met Office expert to check the weather reports and found certain dates would have been unsuitable for flying, it was claimed.

The helicopter was also out of commission on a number of days when Mr Spencer was supposed to be training, according to the official log submitted to the CAA by Mr King in December 2007.

"That simply was a lie and he knew it was a lie and misled the Civil Aviation Authority to help Mr Spencer get his licence in quick time," the prosecutor added.

Mr King, 53, of Wetherby, denies making false representations to procure a pilot's licence.

The trial was adjourned until Thursday (January 3).

[Thomas coupling]

Well, well, another one who thinks they can short circuit the system. Oh well, more room in the gene pool methinks.

[toptobottom]

Idiot, idiot. Two idiots.

[Torquetalk]

TC

Paul Spencer is dead. So is his wife. As far as I know there wasn't much wrong with his genes, or indeed his personality.

There is, with hindsight, a lot to suggest that his attitude set was hazardous. Unluckily for him, he was able find someone to expedite his flight training without this being routed and challenged.

The consequences of this whole sorry affair are tragic and certainly not over for those involved (Paul and Linda excepted).

The "gene pool" is, if anything, poorer for his (their) loss.

Please refrain from trite pseudo-Darwinian witicisms.

[md 600 driver]

A few weeks ago a certain Tory was accused of things and writers ended up paying huge amounts of money in compensation

At the moment the prosecution has entered their views of the whole miss fortunate affair it may be prudent to wait until the court has found someone guilty /not guilty before airing your views on their guilt

[JulieAndrews]

Fully appreciate your comments MD600 and, it goes without saying that people have to be accountable for what they proclaim or say, but not on this website.......
Let's try and keep it 'Un-accountable' and without fear of action otherwise no one will venture to say anything, anytime.
Like I said, in this situation, there appears nothing pertinent to say unless someone knows the facts before the court decides.
Personally, have not a scoobie, all I know is that I was hunkered down and not flying on the day of the accident as no one in their right mind would have been flying in the area at the time......
As for falsifying records - again, not a scoobie, so can't even jump to a knee-jerk conclusion ;-)

[John R81]

JA - not our choice. We are accountable under laws of slander / libel for what we say on this - and any other - website. The only questions are whether a slanderous post is seen by the person slandered / libeled and whether that person is sufficiently aggrieved to push the matter.

Better therefore not to make slanderous / libelous posts. That does not stop speculation, only slander or libel.

[md 600 driver]

Julie Andrews you obviously havnt read this announcement (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads-23/announcements.html) at the top of every page:

CleeIB
Administrator

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: El Segundo
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[Helizoom1]

Fatal helicopter flight instructor Ian King found guilty

A flying instructor whose student died in a helicopter crash has been found guilty of lying to get him a licence.

Ian King, 53, of West Yorkshire, had denied signing off inaccurate training records for Paul Spencer.

Mr Spencer and his wife Linda died in the crash at Rudding Park, near Harrogate, on 26 January 2008.

The judge at the five-day trial at Leeds Crown Court said Mr King displayed a "gross breach of trust". He will be sentenced next month.

In 2007, former Army captain Mr King recorded that his pupil had completed 51 training flying hours against the Civil Aviation Authority's demanded minimum of 45 hours.

Fast-track process
Following the crash, a record of Mr Spencer's flying experience was discovered among his papers that was different from the hours recorded in the official log submitted for his licence.

The prosecution said that Mr King knew it was false, but certified it to fast-track the process for his student, displaying an "utter disregard" for aviation rules.

The jury found him guilty of making a false representation with intent to deceive the Civil Aviation Authority

Mr Spencer, 43, and his wife, 59, from Brighouse, had just returned from a holiday in the Caribbean when they were killed.

The couple, who ran Country Baskets, a business which sold dried flowers, were regular visitors to the Rudding Park Hotel.

Following the sentencing, the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) said: "Flight instructors have a duty to certify training truthfully and accurately.

"Following the tragic deaths of Paul and Linda Spencer, the CAA sought corroboration from Paul Spencer's instructor, Ian King, of his certification of Mr Spencer's training.

"No corroboration was found and the decision was taken to prosecute Mr King."

[mary meagher]

So helicopter instructor Ian King has been found guilty of altering pupil's logbook to fast track his license.

No doubt he was impressed by Mr. Spencer's previous experience in fixed wing aircraft, and by his confidence and capability. It seems to me, a humble gliding instructor and tug pilot who used to dodge helicopers at Wycombe Air Park, that flying a helicopter is completely and absolutely different from fixed wing. And that a pilot faced with a big problem will tend to revert to original training....eg diving at the ground in a spin, pull back on the stick to raise the nose.....

So should not helicopter instructors be even more firm about converting fixed wing pilots to rotary, than they have to be with ab initios who have absolutely no flying experience whatsoever....

[Torquetalk]

So should not helicopter instructors be even more firm about converting fixed wing pilots to rotary, than they have to be with ab initios who have absolutely no flying experience whatsoever....

......

Yes

[Hummingfrog]

Mary M

Your quote below shows you have never flown a helicopter :=


that flying a helicopter is completely and absolutely different from fixed wing. And that a pilot faced with a big problem will tend to revert to original training....eg diving at the ground in a spin, pull back on the stick to raise the nose.....

A helicopter is controlled just like an aeroplane - attitude controls speed, power controls height and lateral movement of the stick controls direction. The only difference is the landing phase! You also can't spin a helicopter so there is no need to "dive towards the ground" and pulling back on the stick does raise the nose!!

The controls are slightly different in that the collective controls the power as most turbine helicopters nowadays have computer to feed in power as the collective is raised.

I have flown both rotary and fixed wing on the same day and have never got so confused as to try to hover an aeroplane (OK once in a Harrier) or land a helicopter at 50+Kts

HF

[hillberg]

Hummingfrog? Helicopters fly like helicopters,:= You sound like a sim flyer.
& most helicopters don't have computers for Droop compensation,unless its FADEC:*,And thats not too much with the old iron.
Old fashoned Flyweight governors do good enough,Seen FADEC close shop in the middle of flight. Check the ADs,:DFADEC Found another dead engine control.:ok:

[paco]

It's not completely and absolutely different, although there are one or two situations in helicopters where, if you do the logical thing, you will kill yourself - they are situations that you definitely need to be aware of.

Other than that, as one holding both licences and with 3-4000 hours on each class, I have always regarded helicopters as just another type rating. Roll on the tiltrotor :E

Phil

[Pittsextra]

Funny (for want of a batter word given the circumstance) when these threads resurface some time after the initial accident just how accurate the first posts turn out to be.

[toptobottom]

hummingfrog

The difference between flying a plank and a helicopter is that years of training/habit becomes instinctive - and potentially lethal when an instant reaction is called for. If the engine on a plank fails, you push the stick forward. If the engine on a helicopter fails, you pull the cyclic back.

If you have amassed 000's of hours on planks and convert to rotary, instinctively pushing the nose down in the event of a failure is a very real risk and one that is the suspected cause of several accidents involving high time f/w, low time r/w pilots.

Bimbling along in the cruise, I agree - not a lot of difference.

[Pittsextra]

TTB - pushing the stick or pulling the cyclic and motor failures are not entirely relevant in this case though are they??

What would be interesting would be knowing the route to the pilot into his machine..

[mary meagher]

Dear Hummingfrog, you are quite right, I have never FLOWN a helicopter. All my time (3000 + hours) is flying what your colleagues so delightfully term a PLANK! I have enjoyed four rides in helicopters - (what should we plankdrivers call helicopters? any suggestions? ....eggbeaters, etc)

I was especially interested to observe the maneuver which I understand is used when the donkey (Lycoming?) goes quiet, is that called an autorotation?
And if the donkey goes quiet, that is an emergency, yes? so stick held back? (as in the Air France Airbus cockpit) We plank drivers, if it all goes quiet, usually have a reasonable chance of gliding down to a safe arrival, if we remember NOT to hold the stick back.

[SilsoeSid]

Start at 8:48;

click here to go direct to 8:48 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aRTjT3WL8IM#t=528s)

A Chopper is Born - Mark Evans. episode two part 8/9 - YouTube
continues..
A Chopper is Born - Mark Evans. episode two part 9/9 - YouTube

[toptobottom]

SS - good find

Pitts - Paul was hover-taxiing in 18G34 after 800 hours on planks (sorry Mary - the 'e' on my keyboard doesn't work, so I have to use a 'k' :ok:), but only 56 hours r/w and 46 on type (give or take 10 hours...:E).

The point is, all those f/w hours counted for nothing in this case - he wasn't trained/experienced to a standard sufficient to cope with the conditions he found himself in. Any similarities when flying in the cruise were academic.

[Pittsextra]

Yes I see your point and agree the helicopter experience was low regardless of type, although you would have thought with 700+ hours fixed wing with a CPL (A) you might expect for a level of airmanship..

There is definately a story around the helicopter IMO with regard to his route into this machine and the relationships between the pilot and other parties involved I think it would be interesting to see if that had bearing on the other inconsistancies in so far as things either becoming matey or other incentives.

[mary meagher]

Having watched Ian King on that video, I think it would be a terrible shame to lose all his experience and ability.

Nevertheless, it is a problem to restrain the wealthy pilot with a new toy, who simply does not have the experience and sense required to fly safely. As shown by Mr. Spencer's flight track in the AAIB report, when he takes off with his wife and does some low flying over the shopping centre to impress the rest of the family.

Student pilots who kill themselves and family members then reflect on the training he received from his instructor; any shortcoming, failure to complete every exercise, any funny business with the paperwork, comes back to possibly ruin the career of a good instructor, who might have learned from this and recovered.

Long ago, I took my power logbooks, UK PPL, and gliding logbook to prove qualification for a US license to the GADO (General Aviation District Office) in Orlando, Florida. The nice official took a quick look at the documentation, and promptly entered me into the FAA records, and handed me the US license.....but then said, hang on a second, lets have another look at that power logbook. He realised I had only 22 hours power! Not enough, and the USA does not recognise a gliding Silver Certificate.

Not wishing to go to the hassle of withdrdawing the FAA certificate, he ALTERED THE HOURS IN MY LOGBOOK!!!!! nice guy. He said "They wouldn't rent you a plane without a check ride anyhow, so I know you'll be OK........" I was too ignorant to realise that this was improper.

[S76Heavy]

I fly my RW mostly IFR and concur with Hummingfrog; cyclic dictates speed (until the point where your run out of power, obviously).

Having about 500 hrs on stiff wings and a couple of thousand on the fling wing variety, my understanding is that with both systems you would go for the best glide speed/autorotation speed, which involves doing something with the pitch control.

Where the helicopter pilot needs to drop the collective ASAP to maintain Nr, the FW pilot may need to feather a prop, but in pitch control the need to set up for best range or min RoD would be similar. Flying at cruise speed, both would need to reduce speed, which means a pitch up or at least wait with pitch down, or am I mistaken?

[Hummingfrog]

Mary M

You have already said you haven't flown a helicopter so if I were you I would stop digging yourself into a bigger hole of ignorance:ugh:

I was especially interested to observe the maneuver which I understand is used when the donkey (Lycoming?) goes quiet, is that called an autorotation?
And if the donkey goes quiet, that is an emergency, yes? so stick held back? (as in the Air France Airbus cockpit) We plank drivers, if it all goes quiet, usually have a reasonable chance of gliding down to a safe arrival, if we remember NOT to hold the stick back.

In a helicopter when the power fails you do enter autorotation and it has a target speed - usually for least rate of descent - so from say a 135Kt cruise (365N2) you would select the attitude for 75Kt. In a fixed wing glide when the power fails you enter a glide and it has a target speed - usually for least rate of descent - so from say a 130Kt cruise (Grob Tutor) you would select the attitude for 75Kt. In each case you bring the stick back to alter the attitude.

So the ONLY difference is the landing where a helicopter can flare to 0 groundspeed but a fixed wing is limited by its full flap stalling speed. In either case if you hold the stick right back before you reach the ground you will crash. In both cases going tail first into the ground:(

Hillberg

Hummingfrog? Helicopters fly like helicopters, You sound like a sim flyer.

Oh how I laughed - I won't embarrass you with how many hours I have on both rotary and fixed wing (ex RAF) but it is more than a few and I can remember that once hovering had been mastered then all the skills I had learnt on the fixed wing part of the course came into play.

HF

[Al-bert]

ROFL sim flyer! Oh how we larfed................but you have flown that too :ok:

[Hummingfrog]

Hi Al

Yes as you know I've flown one or two sims:ok: though not had the pleasure of the Microsoft version that a lot on this forum have as their only flying experience:E When such inaccurate statements as

The difference between flying a plank and a helicopter is that years of training/habit becomes instinctive - and potentially lethal when an instant reaction is called for. If the engine on a plank fails, you push the stick forward. If the engine on a helicopter fails, you pull the cyclic back.

are written:ugh: If you are below your glide/autorotation speed you push forward, if above you pull back - simple attitude control:ok:


HF

[mary meagher]

Thank you, Hummingfrog, for your kind words. If you are an instructor, perhaps you could take me up some day and improve my understanding of the art of rotary wing flying.

Best regards.

[Hummingfrog]

Hello Mary M

I may have been a little harsh but there is more and more ill informed comment on this site from people whose link with professional flying is at best tenuous;)

I would love to have been able to take you up and show you the joys of rotary flying, I might even have let you have a go as I sometimes allowed my co-pilot to touch the controls:E, but I have now retired from the North Sea and the only flying I do now is fixed wing. In over 40yrs of flying rotary/fixed wing I have never found that I couldn't remember which type I was in:eek:

HF