CVs For Military Looking Outside

[Gericault]

Can anyone recommend a CV writing company to help me put together a CV for presenting to civilian companies as I prepare to jump from the ever-listing ship that is the RAF?

[Al R]

Geri,

My advice would be;

1. Do it yourself. Pro written CVs are dull and listless, and stand out a mile.

2. Allow flexibility to change it for the job you're applying for. One size doesn't fit all.

3. Be ruthless. 2 sides of A4 max and leave out the jargon.

[Al R]

I'd agree with that, which is why I said 'max'. But sometimes you have to creep over.

Another tip is; if you're using an agency - find out what CV presentation format they use. In a lot of instances, an agency will tailor what you submit anyway to fit their template. Contact details for instance, will be taken out. If this happens, you might have some agency bird taking out what to you, is an essential part of your CV before sending it on, possibly because the client is screaming for potential interviewees and she is harrassed. Ask the agency for an example of what they send on to an employer and tailor the body copy of your CV for that.

[Wrathmonk]

Or perhaps use the free advice on offer as part of your resettlement package - I assume you have either booked yourself on, or undertaken the Career Transition Workshop?

[c130jbloke]

Second the last post, if you have not yet got on the career transition workshop then do so ASAP :ok:

[egbt]

Wat Al R said.

Also try and put military responsibility into civilian terms, if it's significant put a £ value on the assets or budgets managed.

[DownloadDog]

Get yourself booked on the Career Transition Workshop ASAP. You are entitled to attend it, it doesn't come out of your resettlement leave.

They will help you write a good CV. I was very sceptical about attending, but went along anyway. I was very impressed by the course, it will make you realise what skills you have to offer civvy street and convert mil speak into civvy speak.

Good luck, leaving the RAF was the best decision I ever made. It's a bit scary at first, but believe me it feels sooooo good!

[The Helpful Stacker]

I heartily recommend the Career Transition Workshop briefings as well as the comments about writing the CV yourself.

I found the biggest problem with joining the real world again was selling myself to a potential employer, as we (ex-military) have lots of skills that are sought after in the civilian world, but it is often difficult to translate what we know and do into language that is understandable to an interviewer.

As it happens the first employer I approached for a job interview almost snapped my arm off trying to get me in the door and I'm happy to say that a much better wage, a fair few employee benefits (such as free private dental, healthcare and a great pension scheme) plus job flexibility make it a good job.

To be really honest I'm quite shocked at how much I don't miss the RAF. I thought I was going to struggle without my light blue comfort blanket.

[anotherthing]

One page if possible, good quality white paper, no fancy fonts.

As others have said, think of how to civilianise your skills (team worker, independant thinker etc).

You should have a basic CV with the relevant facts on it, but you can (and indeed would be ill advised not to) tailor it for individual jobs, i.e. move the order in which you state you skills/personal qualities etc around to prioritise them depending on what the job you are after will require.

[Horror box]

Totally agree with the above. I recently made the jump myself and had similar questions. I saw some other CV's before making mine. Some were very good, some very bad. I tried to take the best bits from each and think I came up with good result. Certainly I had a job before I left anyway!
The key things i found were,
- as said before - brevity. Employers see so many CVs, so will not read though pages and pages of your life story. Keep it relevant. Most are not too interested if you were milk monitor aged 12!
- clarity - use tables and colour to highlight important sections, and break it up making it easier on the eye. It doesnt need to be full colour, using shading and greys works perfectly, and can be photocopied without losing effect.
- a normal photo of yourself at the top can also be useful. Putting a face to the name is often difficult after meetings and interviews, so make it easy on them.
- deliver the CV in person. Again, I did this and I am sure it paid dividends.

As they say "you make your own luck", I dont know exactly who "they" are, but good luck anyway, and if I can e-mail you a template of the one I used if you wish. I am definitely loving life on the outside, and it is nowhere near as scary as some think.

[rusty sparrow]

There are some good tips on monster.co.uk and the other job sites such as www.jobsite.co.uk and www.reed.co.uk

Do write it yourself. Get other people to check it - don't undersell yourself and don't use jargon. I use linkedin.com to hold my online profile and recommendations - a lot of recruiters are using this now - you can get an account for free (PM me if you want an invite) - I have a link to this on my two page CV. If people are interested, then they can find more by clicking on the link.

Probably worth getting a copy of What Color is Your Parachute from WH Smiths - lot of job hunting and career review tips in there.

DON'T use a professional CV writing service. I did a couple of years ago - cost a few hundred pounds and what I got was a bunch of cliches that did not speak for me. If I see a CV I expect that it comes from someone who is able to express himself in clear and concise English. If they can't, then what use are they going to be as an employee?

Good luck!

[airborne_artist]

Happy to help out any one leaving the Services, for no fee apart from a beer if you are passing close to the secret Oxon heli-base. I'm a specialist headhunter in telecoms, so I won't be the route to your next job, but I see a dozen CVs a day, so I have a fair idea of what works.

PM me for my office email address.

[Pontius Navigator]

Nothing wrong with any advice so far.

Some points from the brief I got.

1. Don't use "I". Say "Managed a budget of £5m"

2. Don't bull****. The budget of £5m will include non-discretionary sums such as Pay over which you have virtually no control.

3. Don't say you were Responsible for the budget. You may well have been RESPONSIBLE but responsibility does not attest to effectiveness or efficiency.

So the "I" word and the "R" word are both out.

Create a CV 2-3 pages say. Write a one page job-specific CV for each application. In the CV say why you are the person best suited to that job with the best qualifications.

The tip about hand delivering the CV lead on to reconnaisance. It will give you the chance to see the company.

Finally, if you really must go to 2-sides ~

Girl applying for a job, at the bottom of the page where she had hobbies the last line read:

Rowed single handedly across the . . .

They turned the page to see that the next word was the:

Serpentine.

She got to interview.

[caligula]

Gericault

Some good advice above - like anything, you will sift and take out the best bits so I will not pass specific comment, other than one area - your CV should be tailored to the job you are going for. If you are applying to the airlines, copy one of your mates' CVs who got a job. If you want to step into management consultancy at senior level, you may find some of the advice above about not using agencies misplaced. You will probably benefit from professional help in some context - you are competing against clever people with a wealth of commercial experience. I am willing to bet you will not realise the value of some of your skills and experiences and you will be able to hold your own at interview. However you will not get chance to do so unless you are able to articulate those things in a certain way on your CV. A professional will definitely put a different slant on them.

I did once use a company - I think they were called Impact - don't know if they're still around, but they were very good. The points about them removing details and writing bull**** are simply not relevant - you're the client - get them to change things you don't like or just alter yourself. I would strongly advise against just doing the whole thing yourself, if it's the first time for a long time.

Hope that's of some use

Good luck!

[Horror box]

Girl applying for a job, at the bottom of the page where she had hobbies the last line read:

Rowed single handedly across the . . .

They turned the page to see that the next word was the:

Serpentine.

She got to interview.

:D:D:D

Very good, and would definitley deserve an interview in my opinion. Way more imagination and originality than I have!

[Gericault]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and valuable advice. It is a big cold world out there when viewed from the warmth of a desk and regular pay chit, so I am not underestimating the task, nor over estimating my value. That said, i am acutely aware that there are a number of skill sets I will have picked up that may seem inconsequential to me but that may be the one thing that a particular employer is looking for. Thanks again and I will be PM'ing those of you who have kindly offered further help.

Gericault.

[Al R]

Its a great world Geri, of fantastic opportunity and very quickly, the sole attraction of a steady pay packet will be lost. Project yourself, be what your potential employers want you to be and grab it by the balls.

If I might, my hard earned advice would be this:

Think where you want to be in 5 years, and think of the salary that you want to be earning in 5 years. Don't be afraid to use employers as stepping stones in achieving that but by the same token, don't build up a track record of flitting from one job to another simply to get a bit more money each time. Many of the ex servicemen I've spoken with have talked of getting itchy feet after a few years in a job; a bit like a posting cycle - we have all got used to moving on after 3 years or so. Is that going to be you?

When you leave, do you want 'just' a job, or are you interested in developing a long term second career? I know its difficult when you last day in uniform hurtles closer and you become obsessed with having to pay the mortgage, but remember that when you accept an offer; thats going to be you for the next few years. Are you going to be doing what you want to do? Might it be better in the long run to sit tight for a month or so extra and get the role that you really want?

[c130jbloke]

Geri,

Think of everything you have done in the mob in the last 10 - 15 years, write it down and then take it apart to nail down the skills / qualities used + required in said task. My point is that you will be gobsacked at what you have done ( especially on ops). Then get that onto paper and you wil have the start of a great CV. Also work on a CV and have a good effort ready to go for the CTW. It will get picked to peices, but that is only to your benifit as you will have a stroger CV when you leave.

Best of luck, PM if you need more gen.
C130JB

[airborne_artist]

Top tips:

When sending your CV as an email attachment, name it with your name, and some version identifier, such as the date. cv.doc is not really very helpful when it's the 17th you've rec'd that day.

If you play off a handicap of less than ten, then say so!

No need to put your workplace address on your CV, but if possible do put a daytime number that will be answered, even if it's by someone who will take a message.

[plinkton]

Be ruthless. 2 sides of A4 max and leave out the jargon

Be sensible and realistic. One A4 Page.

I sat alongside an RAF Loadie on (what was then called 'resetlement') once and he had at least 5 pages in a folder. Ridicularse!

Good luck on leaving the Service, for what it's worth here is my advice:

Don't worry about those 'I took part in Operation Provide Comfort' -type certificates I once saw a SNCO waving around, (just before putting it into his 5+ page portfolio).

Get some business cards made up: Name, email, telephone number. It saves scribbling down details on paper when you are networking.

Forget the Military, from now you are a civilian looking for a civilian job, spending the next few months in the RAF or whatever, start thinking like a civilian, not an Officer. Of course you may have to play the game slightly here depending on who you want to work with / for.

I would second what airborne_artist has said apart from the golf bit.

Also, most people know ex-mil. have 'done stuff' but in some cases it can have the opposite effect than is desired, it can intimidate.

[egbt]

And if sending an MS Word document by mail remember to check what it looks like if viewed “Final Showing Mark up” and “Original showing mark up”, I have received a few of those over the years where people had change tracking switched on and not cleared them. Can be good for a laugh. :E

[airborne_artist]

Also check the properties of the document - File -> Properties - I've seen some strange things there...

I prefer to send out documents like CVs as PDFs, which you can make easily by taking a .doc, opening it in OpenOffice (free download) and then exporting as a PDF.

[Len Ganley]

Gericault,
On the assumption that you probably know someone who has gone through CTW recently - lets face it, theres a lot of it about - have you asked any of them for advice. CTW thoughtfully provide a big book of different CV types and you can choose which one suits you best. I'll send you mine if you want. It worked for me.


Plinkton
Don't worry about those 'I took part in Operation Provide Comfort' -type certificates I used to see SNCO's waving around, (just before putting them into their 5+ page portfolio).


Could you have been any more patronising towards SNCOs. Obviously you aren't taking your own advice-
start thinking like a civilian, not like an Officer
Although, to be fair, most officers I know are aware of the level of qualification a lot of SNCOs hold. You, on the other hand, obviously think we all live in ditches sticking berries up our noses.

[Stretchwell]

From my experience as a pilot recruiter a single side of A4 is enough. Any more and the good bits are hidden and missed. Make it concise, relevant and DO NOT use all that military jargon that is the norm in the services but incomprehendable in the real world !!

Get it looked at by several people before you finalise it. Get your wife/girlfriend/partner to read it and if they are non-military they should understand all you have written easily.

Good luck !!

[Al R]

There seems to be almost an industry now, revolving around CV writing that sprang up 20 years ago. How on earth did we cope before that? I know this is all subjective, but don't be formulaic - don't start sweating if you HAVE to use 2 pages. Someone isn't going NOT to interview you simply because of the sole reason that you've used a couple of sides. A lot depends on the type of role you're after too. Something slightly arty will need more space than something more technical. I hired someone who filled almost half a page with a joke.

Whatever you do, don't lose your personality - let that show, its vital. Don't be flippant, but there is nothing more soul destroying than wading through swathes of paper and being frustrated (not by having to read 2 pages instead of one).. but the feeling that you are left with the impression that you're reading about the same dull, boring person who has read the same CV book and who is trying to play the game and ideally, pull the wool over your eyes at the same time. A CV never gets hired, its only a means to the end; a switched on employer will always know when they see the right person, even if it is from an average CV.

Employers know too, that a perfect CV doesn't always mean the perfect person. They pride themselves on not being suckered by someone conforming to 'the rules' and to many, hiring a new person is too big an business investment to jeapordise by simply pandering to pseudo management philosophy and throwing away all CVs written on two pieces pf paper and not one. Most employers rather like the idea of sifting through people's lives and most don't care about the niff naff that we are told is so important when writing a CV.

[airborne_artist]

I don't conform to the one page CV rule, but then again, I don't recruit pilots. Two pages ought to be right for most people who have had fifteen to twenty years of career progression, with the increasing responsibility and career development/training that goes with it.

[Milarity]

Time to get serious. Your CV is vitally important so put the work in and get it right. This is not a token gesture; it is your family's future, and those that bother to make the effort stand out a mile.

Not mentioned yet, but start your CV by deciphering the job advert. Every phrase is a clue to what they are looking for, so make sure that you have a strong example for every requirement.

This approach will result in a customised CV targeted precisely at one job. It really is worth the effort.

Next, you may have done lots of stuff, but who cares? The only stuff that matters is what your prospective employer is looking for. Talk military and he will be thinking 'so what? What value is this man to me?'
So tell him! But everything you write must be couched in terms of 'what value I can offer'.

Good Luck, I haven't looked back and can't believe how much better my quality of life is. :ok:

[effortless]

Had to read a bin load of CVs before Christmas, one or two RAF and Pongo types included. One page preferred, despite what it is called, we don't want a life story. Please check spelling and grammar.

[airborne_artist]

Not mentioned yet, but start your CV by deciphering the job advert. Every phrase is a clue to what they are looking for, so make sure that you have a strong example for every requirement.

This approach will result in a customised CV targeted precisely at one job. It really is worth the effort.


There's an argument that the CV should not be re-written each time a job-ad appears. The covering letter is the document to answer the questions posed by the advertisement- while the CV is a more generic brochure. If your CV finds it way into an organisation, a finely tuned version might be rejected as being too specialised, but a more generalised version may well be picked up and read through/handed around as being interesting, perhaps for a vacancy you did not know existed.

Which brings me on to marketing yourself. While it won't be possible to cover all companies/organisations, a full-time job hunter should be highly pro-active and be searching through places before the advertisement gets placed. It's a legal requirement to advertise internally, and government has to advertise externally for some posts, but companies don't have to advertise externally. Get in there before the ad gets placed.

[danieloakworth]

CV size depends what job you're going for. If you're going to be a commercial pilot then a single page should do it. If you're going for something else then you need to put a bit more effort in translating your skills into civ speak. I run a decent size consultancy and see loads of the buggers, always happy to give pointers if you need advice.

[Stretchwell]

For an airline job definately one side of A4. Any more and you going to lose the reader's attention. You don't need to include everything you've ever done - just the relevant stuff. Different tours on different squadrons mean nothing - it's the job they're interested in. Think about CRM, flight safety and combat survival courses - all good.

With some effort you can shrink the CV to one side and make it look good. Use any help you can get and as I said before: run it past lots of people to get their thoughts as you will definately get something wrong on your own.

[Ogre]

Having spent some considerable time applying for jobs not only with another company but in another country, I'd like to offer one word of advice. If you are applying for a job in a company remember the first person that reads the CV will probably be someone in HR that might not understand what you do for a living. Explain everything in terms the civvies will understand, if not your CV will end up in the wrong pile!

A lot of big companies just search for key words which is not necessarily the best idea. In my last job we were looking for someone who had experience of a software tool called DOORS, we got sent a cv by HR of some bloke who used to work for Chubb installing morice locks!

[Al R]

The Home Office Scientific Development Branch (creepy aim: to create a ‘safe, just and tolerant society’) is finalising tests which will allow plod to check people’s roadside ability to multi task. The Mail yesterday reported that elderly drivers will have to undergo a "cognitive" exam to measure ‘brain power’ which will include an IQ-style puzzle such as being asked to spot the odd one out from a series of shapes etc.

I can see the benefits of testing and smart profiling. Symptoms like short-term memory and attention loss, anxiety and panic reactions, loss of motor skills and dexterity, reduced reaction time, and lower abilities to perform skilled activities can be hazardous to human life if combined with potentially hazardous activities such as a stonking great car, and should be tested for.

Reasoning tests and spatial ability can be a useful surrogate variable for driving ability (not sure what tests are thrown at potential aircrew now) - it's a good step towards a fair and steady continual assessment type of system, eliminating the worst most dangerous drivers and without creating mile-long queues outside of backlogged test centres. But those symptoms are ganja side effects too, where will this g’ment be happy – when we all have to spend our days in bed?

But getting back on topic (where was I? Oh yes), what I do find worrying is this. One of the factors to be evaluated is one’s ability to remain focused and the duration of one's attention span. It’s not good if the people who hire airline pilots lose interest before the end of page 1!! I’m starting to ramble. I was going to say something else, but I’ve forgotten what it was. Ummm. Anyway.. so I’m going to go for a nice long drive instead. Yee ha.

[Wader2]

My sister-in-law went and got a professionally produced CV about 15 years ago. It cost and arm and a leg. A year or so on she asked me to udpate it as I had a computer.

It ran to more than 10 pages and came in a natty plastic folder. I think they had done 10 off for her.

She had worked in a solicitor's office, as a fish finger inspector, and was now a newly qualified nurse seeking a position (no jokes).

My first pass got it down to 4 pages. Next pass, after a nod, and it was down to one!

I used the template provided in by WordPerfect. Worked a treat. It starts with current at the start and in reverse chronological order. As your history recedes into the distant past so does the relevance of the early jobs and schooling.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On RAFeese, we had a CV from someone (no names, no ranks) who 'thought' we could understand the RAF Qual codes. As I never understood them at the time he had zero chance with a CV written with all the Q-MTSS, Q-MTD etc

[teeteringhead]

Not really suitable for pilot jobs or for pre-emptive applications, but a good wheeze I heard was:

If applying in response to an advert, make sure the words they use in the ad - "thrusting", "intra-personal" or whatever figure verbatim on your CV. It is not unknown (allegedly) for electronically submitted CVs to be sifted electronically looking for key words........;)

[airborne_artist]

There is absolutely no point enclosing copies of your swimming certificate, letters that start "To whom it may concern - I have known Bloggs for XX years and his energy is only exceed by his ability to put his foot in his mouth" etc. with an initial application. Any sensible company will validate all that stuff after a couple of interviews.

[c130jbloke]

Got this tip from my CTW (cheers Jez):

When uploading an electronic CV, take a good look at the advert and pick out the key words within. Write just the words and any other adjectives you can think of, for example:

Decisive leadership manager experience excellence expertise specialist conversant understanding familiar sound knowledge responsibility conversant comfortable conducting bigbrains etc etc

Then reduce that paragraph to the smallest font you can and change the colour to white. That way, you cannot see it when the CV is printed and it does not bugger up the layout. However, if the employer is using keyword recognition software their IT will "see" the keywords and "accept" your CV. Also, your CV then stands out a little bit, "how did this CV get through if the "key" buzz words are not evident?

[noregrets]

Apologies if this has been said before, but it's worth remembering that the CV gets you the interview only, which in turn gets you the job. Don't try to sell yourself in the CV - you won't have enough space. Instead, you need a 'hook' in your CV - something that really grabs the attention and makes the recruiter want to interview you, if for no other reason than idle curiosity!

[Wader2]

"Ladies Officer at university" did it for Miss Wader. Got her the interview as you say 'out of curiosity', got her the job and she is now deep in HR.

[MrCup]

Some great advice here, I always found 2 pages to be a happy medium and never ever put the initials CV or Curic.... (whatever it is) on the top, just your name, at the top of every page. Two part documents might be a reasonable way of doing things as well, a short pithy 1 pager acting as a summary with a longer more detailed version acting as supplementary.

Photos are a a good idea but can be a double edged sword, depends what you look like, first appearances count, despite what anyone says otherwise.

Have both word and PDF versions (there are loads of online PDF converters online, no need to download any software, just do a google search)

Steer clear of colour because they get copied and colour docs when copied can look rubbish.

I have a neat and modern looking word CV template if anyone wants to PM me their email.

[Autorev]

I agree with the comment that the CV is a mere hook for the interview.
CTW is the best use of 3 days I've spent in the Air Force. I only disagreed with the 'facilitator' on one topic. She was so adamant that I should civilianise my cv completely, that my final offering made no mention of the fact that I was a Military Helicopter Pilot. Speaking to contacts in the areas I was looking at, (non-flying, non-defence) they all agreed that simply being a ex-RAF pilot would probably get you an interview, just 'cause it sounds interesting'.
DYOR, however I suggest you don't play down your military career too much...unless that is you're in the Army or RN;)

Good advice also to be had at Liquid List get togethers...

[EngAl]

I agree with the emphasis on brevity. But the thing which stood out for me at the CTW was being told that 60% of jobs are never advertised. So I fully endorse the advice to network and make yourself stand out in whatever way you can such as hand delivering the application, if it's practicable and in particular:

AA's final para at #30
"Which brings me on to marketing yourself. While it won't be possible to cover all companies/organisations, a full-time job hunter should be highly pro-active and be searching through places before the advertisement gets placed. It's a legal requirement to advertise internally, and government has to advertise externally for some posts, but companies don't have to advertise externally. Get in there before the ad gets placed."
and NoRegrets at #40
"Apologies if this has been said before, but it's worth remembering that the CV gets you the interview only, which in turn gets you the job. Don't try to sell yourself in the CV - you won't have enough space. Instead, you need a 'hook' in your CV - something that really grabs the attention and makes the recruiter want to interview you, if for no other reason than idle curiosity!"

[tablet_eraser]

I'm on resettlement at the moment, too; just 4 months left, and every day convinces me more and more that submitting my PVR was the best career move I've ever made!

I've found it hard to hit on a CV format that fits the bill for me and my chosen industry (media/PR) effectively, so don't expect your CV to be perfect at its first iteration. The standard is 2 pages of A4, in the third person, note format; 'I' will not get you a job! Give it to your friends, and maybe even your boss; they will pick up on things you've missed out, or point out areas you could re-word. Even better, if you have a friendly on-site contractor (a Serco director, in my case), give it to him to have a look at; there's nothing like a real industry perspective to sharpen your skills.

Careers Transition Partnership is brilliant, and you'll have access to a database of jobs advertising specifically for ex-military types. I'm chasing a financial PR consultancy in London at the moment; the position they're offering is only being advertised through CTP and other ex-mil consultants.

Pay a visit to www.thelistuk.com, too; full of excellent advice, and lots of contacts who've made the transition. Finally, the Officers' Association is a great networking tool, but I've found its CV and letter-writing advice to be a bit fusty for modern employers. Still, give them a buzz; their contacts database has yielded some excellent results for me.

Best of luck, and PM me if I can be of any help!