Pilot assessment

[Nicholas49]

Are first officers who are being assessed by training captains (or is it CAA examiners?) for promotion to captain examined on flights that carry passengers? Or is the assessment done in the simulator?

Not a scared passenger, just intrigued to know.

[wiggy]

In our large UK based airline it goes like this.

Conversion from Right Hand Seat to Left Hand done in the sim, followed by a variety of "interesting" sim rides where the candidate has a whole variety of scenarios thrown at him/her to see how they react, finishing with a formal simulator assessment ride.

If that goes OK then training sectors are flown on the line, commercial flights, with passengers, with a Training Captain in the Right Hand seat.

Finally a Route/Final Check flown with a Training Captain in the Right Hand seat (he/she is supposed to behave as a competent co-pilot, but one that lacks any initiative....:E ) and the Checking Captain, usually a Senior Checker or "Standards Captain", on the Jump Seat.

It's a relief when it's over, then again nobody ever said it was going to be easy!

[radeng]

I was on BA flight from Stockholm where they announced at the end that it was the final check flight for the guy - it was a good landing and we all clapped and wished him well. Are there any other professions so examined (and re-examined) as ATPL?

[Nicholas49]

Thanks, wiggy. Very helpful.

Just one quesion: during the training sectors you have an F/O in the LHS and a training captain in the RHS, right? So who is the captain on the aircraft? Is it the training captain?

[Greek God]

As Wiggy says we also use a similar system - after the sim grilling the flying consists of 20 sectors as an FO in the left seat but with the training captain in the right as the captain and Commander. You will then on sector 20 do your captains check and if all is well get signed off as a captain. The next 10 sectors are done with the new capt in the left seat with a senior and experienced FO in the right seat and a training captain on the jump seat as Commander still. Sector 30 is the formal Command check after which the new capt is fully signed off but is still only allowed to fly with experienced SFOs for the next 50 sectors. All flying is full commercial route flying.

[towser]

The training captain is always technically in command whatever seat they sit in. In our company he's the one that signs the legal paperwork i.e. techlog and loadsheet.

[llanfairpg]

The training captain is always technically in command whatever seat they sit in.

Not correct for a variety of reasons.

First off all it depends on what capacity he is on the aircraft in. If he is not in a training or testing role and sitting in the RH hand seat he is not likely to be pilot in command.

On many occsasions training captains undertake line checks from the jump seat and will not certainly not be in command sitting in an observers seat.

Some airlines regularly fly two captains together, sharing the command duties, if one is a training captain he will most likely spend half of the legs as co-pilot and not in command

[Nicholas49]

"The next 10 sectors are done with the new capt in the left seat with a senior and experienced FO in the right seat and a training captain on the jump seat as Commander still." [my italics]

As llanfairpg says, surely the guy in the jump seat can not be in command? Does the PIC not need to be at the controls? (with the exception of rest periods, obviously).

Second follow-up question, if I may: where do CAA examiners fit into all this?

[wiggy]

There's usually no CAA examiner involved - for want of a better description the CAA devolve the authority to do all the Command training and checking to the airline's training department ( in my outfit's case). I guess, in theory, you could end up with a CAA examiner "checking the checker", either by sitting in on the Simulator Command Check or sitting in on the final Route Check.....:uhoh::uhoh: That would do wonders for the candidates nerves.....

As to the point about who sits where? - UK rules are,as far as I'm aware, that the Commander must be at the controls for the take-off and landing - perhaps the Commander on jumpseat is a non-UK thing?

[BelArgUSA]

Horror story here...
xxx
My transition to captaincy on 747... PanAm, 1989.
I was then captain 727, had been captain 707 and DC8 as well.
My experience on 747 - zero/zilch/nada (though I had logged some 747 toilet seat time).
xxx
Miami... at the Academy. Was 2 weeks of classroom.
Then about a week of worthless paper trainer and CPT, written and oral exam.
Then 10 days of simulator, about 30 hours of it.
Half of that time was in the RHS, sitting on my hands, or "raising the gear"...
Then simulator check, and a 4 hours LOFT...
xxx
A week later, finally my first flight in the aeroplane.
With me, a check-captain. Old buddy of mine, who sat in the RHS.
Passengers - probably was about 250 casualties... JFK to CDG.
First landing - great - we had to wake-up the check-captain for the layover.
Of course I never told the passengers it was my first flight on the 747.
I would have liked to, though (ha ha ha).
xxx
For the next days, was a CDG-JFK, then a JFK-FRA, finally a FRA-JFK.
All that was needed was to log 25 hrs with a check-captain. I had 32 hrs.
I could have deducted 1 hr for each landing, to reach the magic 25...
xxx
After that, was "all by myself", no more check-captain, a real F/O with me...
And the poor guy got stuck with me for the month. He could not land.
I had to do every landing until I had logged 100 hrs total PIC time.
Yes... and passengers (real ones) in the cabin.
Not even aware of the questionable experience of the captain.
How can that be admissible. Disgrace, that PanAm...
xxx
A few things I have to say - however...
(1) The airplane is easier to fly (and land) than the simulator -
(2) I never had a bad landing (with 18 years and 7,000 logged in them) -
(3) The 747 is the easiest (and most stable) airplane I ever flew -
(4) While the 747 is easy to fly, you better learn to taxi that one -
xxx
Scary, eh... dear passengers...?
:)
Happy contrails

[Contacttower]

Second follow-up question, if I may: where do CAA examiners fit into all this?

The 'real' CAA examiners appear for the initial Instrument Rating test :E.