ATC for 60,000ft+

[Razor61]

Do aircraft such as the U-2S Dragon need to keep in contact with ATC at FL600 and above? Obviously not a lot is going to be in the way re: collision avoidance etc and so the pilot surely can just get on with his routing or mission and re-contact the ATC Agency when he is ready to descend.

Or does the pilot need to keep in regular contact for DnD purposes, whereby if contact is not made for what, 45 mins? then the DnD cell is contacted.

[ORAC]

Do aircraft such as the U-2S Dragon need to keep in contact with ATC at FL600 and above? If it's inside the FIR, yes; if it's above, no - it can continue VFR and just call ATC when it requires descent into controlled airspace.

Which is what used to happen with the SR-71s when they operated out of the UK and routed down the North Sea.

I also watched Concorde do it in the Cyprus FIR back in 1977. The flight was routing UK-Bahrain when it was informed that the Lebanese FIR was closed (civil war) and that it had to slow to subsonic, descend to FL350 and route via the Syrian FIR. The pilot said "Standby" and obviously went to chat to BA Ops. When he came back he called Nicosia and said:

"Nicosia, be advised Lebanese airspace closure does not affect Concorde operations. I have my destination in sight, climbing FL600 and continuing VFR, good day".

And then straight across the top at M2.0......

[Fox3snapshot]

Spoken to the U2's on a few occasions but they called more out of courtesy than necessity based on their altitude at the time. They descend here in the military patches so don't typically effect us too much. We also had one with an engine failure arrive on our doorstep in Muscat during the peak of the Afghan campaign which sparked up the local U.S. resources with them promptly trying to cover it up in the middle of the airfield to avoid any unnecessary attention. Unfortunately a huge lump of green cammo clad aeroplane is not easily concealed in a flat white sandy beach side airfield. :p

Have had the rare and entertaining privilege of talking to the Global Hawk 'pilot' on two occasions as well when they did their transit from YPED to the sandpit FL640 a few years back. The third occasion it had a radio failure and I received a call in the center from the States with a position report from the operators. After our local squawk code was issued the aircraft proceeded to transit our patch like any other, the whole concept was a bit bizarre at the time :ooh:

We have both types operating on a hourly basis from here now (eastbound and westbound :cool:) so the novelty has worn off a bit and as long as we here the magic words from our military cell 'above FL550' we get back to matters more ordinary. ;)

[Sentry Agitator]

UK UIR - Mandatory Radar Service Area (Known Traffic Environment) FL245 to FL660.
MDAs go up to FL660 and are often booked that high...not actually seen much use as I gather it can be quite uncomfortable!

However, some reference with the change last year to class C (JSP 552 201.100 & Mil AIP all on hand to clarify further)

Quote from - AERONAUTICAL INFORMATION CIRCULAR AIC 1/2007 (Yellow 227) dated Jan 2007:
Airspace classification - The background classification between FL 195 and FL 660 within the UK FIR/UIR will be Class C. FL 195 must not be allocated as a cruising level.

UK National Rules and requirements for flight in Class C Airspace


The basic rules for operations in Class C airspace, irrespective of meteorological conditions are:

(a) A pilot who has filed IFR on a Class C ATS route will not be able to subsequently cancel the IFR plan and elect to continue on the ATS route under the VFR. The Air Navigation Order Rules of the Air are being amended to reflect this change;

(b) A flight plan must be filed. Abbreviated Flight Plans will only be acceptable for military aircraft operating under the control of a military ATS or ASACS unit;

(c) An ATC clearance must be obtained to fly within the airspace;

(d) Radio contact must be maintained on the appropriate frequency;

(e) Mandatory carriage of 8.33 kHz in controlled airspace above FL 195 AIC 110/2006 (Yellow 221) refers. It is anticipated that localised VFR activity within a TRA will, in the interim, be permitted to operate with a 25 kHz channel spaced radio. VFR operations seeking access to airspace where the controlling agencies require 8.33 kHz, will need to be suitably equipped. Specific arrangements for military operations in 8.33 airspace will be detailed in the UK Military AIP;

(f) The flight must be conducted in accordance with ATC instructions.
Above FL660 class G & no problems! continue VFR sqk 7000

SA

[Ali Barber]

Managed to get a call of "VFR on top" back in Lightning days. Was met with "roger, clear en route, ceasing radar service, click"!

[SirToppamHat]

ISTR ORAC had a claim to fame of handing over a lightning to Leuchars after a PI sortie over the North Sea. A full handover including the phrase 'VFR' but without any mention of height until the approach controller identified the Lightning, wherupon he announced the ac was at FL670 and deselected the landline.

:D

Care to comment ORAC old chap?

Edited to add that on more than one occasion I have been providing a Radar Control service to an F3 which has been unable to comply with a direction to turn due to being too high. In one case, the F3 was in potential confliction with a 737 below:

Me: "C/S Port 230 inbound, not below FLxxx."

F3: (In an annoyed voice) "I can't turn and maintain level Neatishead."

Me: "Err Roger .... don't turn."

and off he went into the Dutch FIR...

I could never quite get my head round the idea that an ac could be under RC, but not able to comply with a reasonable instruction.

STH

[Razor61]

Many thanks guys. I have overheard (with the scanner) Dragons outbound from Fairford on numerous occasions cleared to FL600 with airline pilots coming on frequency asking what aircraft it was that has been cleared to 60,000ft which seems to be the U-2's standard transit altitude.

Have had the rare and entertaining privilege of talking to the Global Hawk 'pilot' on two occasions as well when they did their transit from YPED to the sandpit FL640 a few years back. The third occasion it had a radio failure and I received a call in the center from the States with a position report from the operators. After our local squawk code was issued the aircraft proceeded to transit our patch like any other, the whole concept was a bit bizarre at the time

Interesting that the Global Hawk transited Europe and possibly the UK enroute to Nordholz in Germany for a month of intensive flying over the North Sea on German ISTAR/ELINT trials. I suppose the Global Hawk is treated as any other aircraft in controlled airspace? Or does it require a different service and would it squawk the standard codes?

[ORAC]

ISTR ORAC had a claim to fame of handing over a lightning to Leuchars after a PI sortie over the North Sea. A full handover including the phrase 'VFR' but without any mention of height until the approach controller identified the Lightning, wherupon he announced the ac was at FL670 and deselected the landline.Care to comment ORAC old chap?

Totally untrue. :=

It was to Midland Radar with a Binbrook recovery at the top of the dive arc.... :E

[SirToppamHat]

I preferred the version I remembered....
;)

STH

[rab-k]

Oceanic airspace extends F55 - UNL...

U2 is required to have an ATC clearance and does receive such, usually to operate at or above F600.

On one occasion a Concorde was restricted to not above F570 due to a U2 at F610+. (4000' vertical required between SST and others). Concorde crew queried the restriction, but seemed satisfied with the response.:E

[LowObservable]

I have this vision of an ATCO talking to GHawk.

GHawk responds: "Sorry, just answering the phone... aircraft commander just popped next door for a bacon cheeseburger and a coke... be with you in a few."

[Fox3snapshot]

Once we have confirmation that it is Global Hawk we apply a 10,000' buffer from our civil traffic, U2 we apply normal separation.

We have had to descend our civil traffic on a few occasions to achieve the vertical spacing as the Global Hawk and U2 transit and descent routes cross our airways. It has become more of an issue now with these new G5's etc topping out at the FL490 mark :eek:

[Razor61]

Thanks Fox3,
I take the obvious for the 10,000ft buffer being that the Global Hawk pilot can't exactly 'look' for the aircraft outside for any conflictions etc.

[Wader2]

Sir TH, you mention the inability of the F3 to comply with control instructions. This does raise a point about aircraft manouevre capability and a controller's awareness of those limitations.

At 'normal' levels most aircraft will be maintaining similar speeds and have similar performance ie Airbus and Boeing but at the edge that will be different.

Your F3 is one, Concorde was another - what was its turn radius at warp speed?

We used to be limited to a 15 deg AOB and a turn radius in the order of 12 miles if we were to maintain level above 500.

While a controller may become familiar with his regular traffic how were they taught about the rarer ones?

[ORAC]

If you think the F3 was bad you should have tried doing supersonic stern intercepts with an F-104, about 38nm radius for a 180 degree turn. The Lightning wasn't too bad - U6A: Tgt M1.6, Ftr M1.8, 180 x 26nm. You had about a 3 second window to call the turn - with a 4rpm radar refeshing every 15 seconds...

(ps. I have written previously concerning controlling a certain LI based RN Lt F3 pilot who got it up up to M1.9 and when went over Arbroath at M1.3; not because of the turn radius - but because he was too scared to pull back on the stick or to try to turn until he slowed down...)

[SirToppamHat]

Wader2

It's a reasonable point, and we were made aware that the F3 in particular had certain limitations, but in the particular instance to which I refer, it was the degree of limitation that was a shock, and the fact that I remember the pilot's response so clearly is a measure of that. It wasn't going all that fast, and neither was it terribly high!

ORAC

Yes, I can well believe it having controlled IAF F104s in Deci - of course we were in the ACMI Range (when she wasn't "close-eddd" by Mirto Radar!), so there was no other traffic to worry about, but the range itself just didn't seem big enough!

STH

[chornedsnorkack]

Oceanic airspace extends F55 - UNL...

What do you mean unlimited? Surely satellites at FL5000 and above do not contact ATC?

At what altitude is a spacecraft descending from orbit supposed to contact ATC?

[rab-k]

What do you mean unlimited?Exactly what the book says - "The vertical limit of the Shanwick Oceanic Control Area is from FL55 to Unlimited and is Class A airspace."

Neither Space Shuttle, Soyuz-TMA nor ISS have ever called me for a clearance, but I guess I'd include "No known traffic to affect" in it somewhere, if they did... ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanwick_Oceanic_Control

[advocatusDIABOLI]

An F3 Mate once got VFR on top, but kept a bit 'too' quiet about it........ By Tuesday, he was goneeeee.....! Oooops! :uhoh: (Probably now a BA Capt on 200k)

Advo

[Chicken Leg]

Is nobody else concerned that an F3 can't turn and maintain altitude? How useful is that for an interceptor?

How the Commies must have giggled!

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Chicken,

Don't worry. It depends on Ht and speed. I challenge any fighter to turn with a U2 at FL600! Ironically, I also challenge him to pull off a hard turn! It's not secrets, its physics!

All (Older) Fighters suffer the same type of limitations, when required to fly high, and slow, admitedly, some more than others. But, when required, and the speed is up........... all can fly and turn just fine. By the way, if my jet can't make the turn, I'm totally sure my AMRAAM or ASRAAM can!!!! :D

Advo

[Razor61]

Just so happens that right now theres a U-2 inbound Fairford descending from 63,000ft.

[Gen.Thomas Power]

Lots of chat here about F3 and its ability to turn, or not, at high level. What about Typhoon? Couldn't it turn with a U2 at 60'k? Even for a little while?

There was talk a few years ago about them relaxing the rules to allow supersonic flight overland at very high level. I assume nothing came of it, because if the rules had been relaxed there might have been a case for lowering the upper limits of controlled airspace (to FL500 say) so that military aircraft could have made more use of 'VFR above'.

Or am I talking bollox?