JPA and their appalling administrating

[HeliAviator]

First the appology, I know you have heard it all before but, I feel the the appalling administation of JPAC, Kentigern House, Glasgow needs to be aired again.

For seven mouths now I have attempted to get the incompetent, unfit for purpose staff of JPAC Glasgow to correctly pay me what I am owed.

On 1 July 07 my flying pay changed from Enhanced to Spec Aircrew, the correct competencies were entered into my JPA profile and then its a simple task to stop one rate and pay the other. The wonderful and caring (sic) personnel at JPAC have managed to withdraw all flying pay since June and refuse to make any head way in restoring what they owe me.

The usual round of I-supports, telephone calls, letters have all been ignored as has the letter of complaint to the Customer Services Department. These people never telephone you back, email you or atttempt to contact you in any way. I have left three telephone nunbers and two email addresses, plus my military and civil addresses by which they could contact me. The whole matter to date has consumed over 60 hours of my time, time that could be well spent doing what I'm paid for - when they eventually pay me correctly.

On 20 Decmber I issued a Small Claims Court Writ to JPAC to sue for the outstanding pay owed, plus interest, plus court fees. The 10th January was the deadline for them to respond, passed and I now have a request for a judgement to be made on the case. Should I win a legal request will be made to pay me what I'm owed immediately, including interest and court fees. The bad news is that this judgement is not enforceable in Scotland (perhaps this is why the main office is based there). However, Small Claims Courts are open courts and the details can be made public with whatever media interest that may generate. Also the debt can be sold to a Scottish Debt Collection agency for collection, they then can add their own fee as they see fit.

I am sure that I am the tip of the iceberg, and there are many hundreds if not thousands receiving a poor service form JPAC to a greater or lesser degree that myself. Its time that this inefficient and uncaring administration service was porperly audited and restructured to give at least a basic system where problems can be resloved within a set time frame.

I will keep you posted on the outcome. No doubt there will be some flack coming my way for airing this, but hey I aint going to be promoted further anyway, and with my time left to do I don't really care as long as get the pay that's owed to me in a suitale time scale. :ugh:

[Al R]

I once took my stn cdr to the small claims court for a similar thing, as a very last resort. It was probably coincidence, but my pay issues were resolved the day after he received a summons.

I've (thankfully) had no experiences of JPAC, they sound a right bunch of cowboys. At the moment, I'm 8 months into a running battle with a motorbike insurance company, the details of which are being aired on a messageboard. I find the time to regularly e-mail the company MD with links and updates; showing him what the world is thinking of his company is the least I can do.

Perhaps dropping the office of CAS a link to here (he'll know who you are anyway)? Or http://www.writetothem.com/ or http://www.theyworkforyou.com ? I do it on a semi regular basis now, and its quite theraputic :E . I also e-mailed David Cameron a few weeks back, and fair play to the man, I got a detailed response from a staffer. Just keep building and building a groundswell, and your case will suddenly establish critical mass.

Good luck. And don't stop.

[HeliAviator]

Thanks for the support, the suggestions and links. My next step is to info my local MP and DC to lobby the Armed Forces Minister. Or perhaps raise a PM's Petition for a complete overhaul of the JPA system as it clearly is not working. Anyone reading this prepared to sign if I do? :ugh:

[Al R]

A petition will get you nowhere in terms of overturning a decision. The g'ment ignores 2 million motorists so you haven't got much chance. :E

But I'd certainly sign it. I'm no longer in, but from what I've read, this is another example of those around whom a system should revolve, being treated like sh#t by the apparatik which runs it. It all depends how far you're prepared to go. I don't think I'm undermining anything which hasn't undermined itself or the RAF already, but perhaps JPA might benefit from a little mainstream scrutiny too? Sell them the idea, and let the train take the strain.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio/watchdog/

[StopStart]

Almost the same deal here. Switched to PAS in June 07 and my pay hasn't changed. Spoken to my poor overworked desky who's tried to get the goons that run this rubbish to amend my details but no joy so far.

He wondered when I'd post it on PPrune! http://www.ethanwiner.com/Smileys/Wave2.gif

[HeliAviator]

Guess what? A rather panicky person from JPAC has just telephoned me about the problem. That's a first in seven months, perhaps they read PPRUNE too! Apparently in good comedy TV show fashion; The computer say's no! :ugh:

[3 bladed beast]

I look forward to the first test case of this in the courts. Either as the forces guy taking it to court, or being taken to court for a dispute over a claim etc etc.

Personally, I think the MOD and JPA will/would be ripped apart by a semi decent lawyer.

[RobinXe]

From my own experience, and that of everyone else I've spoken to who's been promoted since JPA was introduced, it seems to take an absolute minimum of 3 months (4 in my case, more in others') before changes in pay status are realised in the pay-cheque.

[RobinXe]

perhaps they read PPRUNE too!

I'm sure they do, its not like they're doing any work!

[3 bladed beast]

Waiting 3/4 months for your pay to be correct cannot be legal! How do they get away with this on such a frequent and blatant basis?

[Al R]

Robin,

If you think that the savings for deferring the actioning of pay rises can be tens of thousands of ££'s in interest accrued, then it starts making a bit more more sense. 2 things spring to mind.

If the system is wrong, change the system.

Garbage in - garbage out.

[Wader2]

The introduction of JPA has enabled the producers of the Air Force List to use best information to keep the list up to date and switch from expensive paper issues to an online version.

No longer will the PA to CO be able to flick quickly to find the latest post-nominals of the CAS.

Unfortunately JPA means it is no longer possible to maintain a Retired List. It also means all those that are not on JPA are not in any list either - RAFR, RAF(VR)T etc etc.

Another bit f history and historical record bites the dust of progress.

[HeliAviator]

Yet another panicky call from JPAC Glasgow. They now tell me that it will be paid at the end of February, with all arrears. Now where have heard that before, let me think,,,,,,,,, Oh yes! Jul, Oct, Nov and Dec last year. And here's a thing, its going to be paid not as flying pay but added to my yearly salary and paid in 12 equal monthly sums. Correct me if I'm wrong but surely that's the PA system? I would be happy then if my DO sends the letter stating that I am now on the PA spine. Having asked to speak to someone in authority I was told no way, so the small claims court writ still stands, as does the £108 court fee and the £138 interest owed up to 10 Jan 08. This agency really is not fit for purpose as perviously mentioned. :ugh:

[Al R]

I know you've arrived at a figure, but The Late Payment of Commercial Debts (interest) Act of 1998 allows some to reclaim money owed. Let’s work it out.

The difference that you would make over 4 months is for arguments sake, £1000. Under the Act, you would be entitled to charge £35.14 in interest. Let us imagine that at any one time, there are 1,000 people (2% or so of the RAF) being affected by late payments like this. 35 x 1000 = £35,000 every 3 months. Across the uniformed elements of the MoD alone, that’s £315,000 in JPA fines. If it is more realistic, then it could be closer to £1,000,000 and that’s just money owed as a result of late salary increase payments. Factor in other late payments and the skies the limit with those jokers. Add too, court fees at about £100 a pop and its a few million. Simply because someone isn't doing their job properly.

I’d like to see the finance director explain to the House of Commons Select Committee or the NAO why a million quid’s worth of body armour isn’t being bought, because his Agency keeps getting fined.

Of course, this is never going to happen. You’re not self employed or a small business so ok, you can’t do it, but why should you be penalised financially simply because you elected to Defend the Realm? But it gives an idea as to the extent of the problem. My advice would be to go for the jugular, and I applaud you. I'm not inciting sedition or mutiny, because what you're doing isn't anything other than compelling the MoD to keep to a contract, because thats what it is. For decades, 'we' got accustomed and conditioned to accepting cock ups like this. In civvy street, I have issued a few dozen claims, why should I suffer for someone else's dishonesty, negligence or incompetence?

Teamwork and loyalty is a two way street. You work your butt off for the RAF, so why isn't it keeping to its side of the bargain? Work out the difference in what you were being paid, and what you should be paid. 294,990 employed by the MoD. And of course, it is hypothetical because you don't have a leg to stand on. Unless you elect to do what you have done.

http://www.payontime.co.uk/calculator/statutory.html (http://www.payontime.co.uk/calculator/statutory.html)

[foormort]

My flying pay was in error for a total of 15 months. Finally I got the arrears in 2 payments worth over 5000 pounds. I spent the best part of 3 weeks on the phone to Glasgow and they never once returned a call or answered the service request. I have been treated poorly once, it will not happen again. During the process it came to light that JPA is performing poorly with flying pay. Terrible service and no support to the personnel forced to use JPA.

[OHP 15M]

The ONE thing that is going to 'hack-off' a serviceman more than anything else in the whole, wide world is cocked-up pay, especially when you're owed money (the taking it away bit seems to work just fine:ugh:). I seem to recall the senior Air officer responsible for the initial acceptance of JPA (sorry, can't remember his name) stated that he would not allow it to be introduced into the RAF until he was sure that everybody was going to paid correctly. As this is clearly not the case, it may be worth researching this with a view to some serious redress action :eek:.

... to make sure you receive all your monies, all I require Sir, is your sort code and bank account number ... :ok:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:y07SyzULhyKqrM:http://thumbnails.putfile.com/images/1/1180373297881990266.jpg (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://thumbnails.putfile.com/images/1/1180373297881990266.jpg&imgrefurl=http://forums.gumtree.com/about132603.html%26highlight%3D&h=120&w=160&sz=6&hl=en&start=33&tbnid=y07SyzULhyKqrM:&tbnh=74&tbnw=98&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dphonejacker%26start%3D18%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18% 26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBR_enGB239GB239%26sa%3DN )

[ZH875]

I left last year, and I am still getting pay chits from JPA :uhoh:

[AdanaKebab]

I was posted in Jun 07 and it took them 6mths to start charging for moving into married quarters. All the back money I owed was taken in December of all months. That's how JPA wishes you Merry Xmas ! :(

[SammySu]

I've not been paid flying pay since July 07. Have put in 7 service requests, frustrating cycle of "yes sir it's sorted now, you'll get it at the end of the month", followed by not getting anything = new service request, 10 days for JPAC to reply and the cycle continuing into the next months pay chit. Finally got paid some flying pay ........but at the wrong rate, incorrect payment reclaimed gross, so now I'm even worse off. This month they say my pay will be correct but that they won't be giving me the £6000 owed in back payments until March. Thanks a million. :ugh:
Heliaviator - I believe there is now a second tier of SR that cannot be closed after 10 days and that you (complainant) have to be satisfied with the outcome before it can be closed?

[endplay]

Like ZH875 I too left last year, and I am also getting a regular pay statement telling me that I am not going to be paid a salary this month.

One upside of their incompetence is that despite holding on to my severance pay for the maximum of 30 days (to ensure any money owed is recovered pre payout) they then realised that I did owe them a paltry amount and demanded it back, I'm not exactly refusing to repay the money but as I've only had the one communication to date I shall operate at their speed. They can expect a cheque in 2020 or thereabouts.

[ZOFO]

It took a long haul and 8 Months to get my pay right when I crossed over from the lower pay band to the higher ground trades pay band, I to got caught in the vicious circle of doom between JPAC and SHQ and back to JPAC again. Finally got there in the end. I now am dreading the end of April this year, as I was due to retire from the service at my 22 year point, but have just signed on for an extra year of continuance of service. So what odds would you give that JPA kicks me out at the end of April with a big fat pay out and pension that at some point I will have to repay:ugh:Any body else out there been in this position? and what action was taken to recover monies owed etc.. Any help gratefully received.

Zofo:ok:

[Roland Pulfrew]

HeliAviator,

I have much sympathy. JPA (wrongly) stopped paying me my flying pay in Sep 07. It has been the subject of numerous phones calls, i-supports, lots of hard work from my P staff and much wasted time on my part. I got so fed up that I submitted a formal complaint - but still haven't received a reply!! I asked for interest to be paid on the money they owed me through their error. No interest was forthcoming :( but I have at last been paid the back pay :)

I cannot believe that the hierachy believe that there are only small insignificant problems with the system. :ugh:

[BlackadderIA]

An army Major at my old unit PVR'd, then changed his mind and decided to stay on. Unfortunately for him, JPA seemed unable to compute and effectively kicked him out (first he knew was when he got a pay statement for zero squids).
The only way the muppets at the JPAC have been able to (eventually) sort him out and get him back onto the system is to give him a new service number!
Hate to be him come pension time :rolleyes:

[Al R]

If everyone in this thread made a commitment to contact for instance, BBC Watchdog, I'll bet you that in the next series, you'd see some JPA civvy or some Airship sitting in front of JockNick, trying to explain why charities, messageboards and minority pressure groups are doing more for servicemen right now, than the people who employ them.

The FSA and the OFT have taken the banks to court now, there's nothing they'd like more than have a flagship campaign like this take its place. What a scalp. It has everything. Brown, crap housing, the Civil Service, troops not getting paid (remember the amazement when the Soviets stopped paying their military? It'd be the same all over again), more Generals, Admirals and Air Marshalls than battalions, warships and sqns, Tommy v's the Brass and echos of lions lead by donkeys.

And if you're reading this, and if you're the :mad: responsible for this debacle, or if your career is going to be affected by this when it all gets out as part of a consumer bias single issue, I suggest you start earning your money pronto and begin putting your troops first. Call it.. arse covering. Never let it be said you haven't had a final warning.

[ZOFO]

Al R nice post :D

BlackadderIA Jeepers like you say pension is going to be a minefield for that poor Major, I hope that I dont have to remember a second service number. It took me long enough to remember the first:)

[HeliAviator]

I was unaware when starting this thread about JPAC and flying pay just how many where affected, I considered that the matter could be the tip of an iceberg, but not the scale. Leaving flying pay aside for a moment, your average Tommy (if there is such a person) must be having the same frustrations and lack of service over basic pay and allowances, I know that many of my juniors and seniors are. It is time for this agency to undergo a full root, trunk and branch review. They clearly do not or can not interpret the regulations governing military pay with any clarity. :ugh:

Al R, nice post m8 and I think an email to BBC Watchdog might be forthcoming to guage their feeling on the matter.

Despite JPAC best efforts to stall for time until the end of Feb, I will still press ahead for the small claims court judgment of which I am 99% certain of attaining a positive result for the full amount owed, the court fee and interest. Failure to pay by JPAC in a timely manner will result in the debt owed to me sold on to a debt recovery firm, who will add their fees and turn up with bailiffs if they don't pay. It unlikely but I would love to see the bailiffs walking out the door with a few dozen computers under their arm. :O

[Something witty]

Personaly I have to report that JPA has, thus far, been a success. I have on the whole been paid something approaching the right amount and they even remembered that I got promoted!

However, I have seen many examples of cockups, enough to realise that all is not well outside of my fortunate experience. There are however I suspect other culprits other than JPA.

In my location the light-blue PSF staff have been absolutly usless and achieved the square root of fcuk all in the many months of machinations over a friends pay. Were I charitable then I might allow that it wasn't entirely their fault however the manner in which they have 'dealt' with the problem has been atrocious in all respects.

It is possible that they themselves have had major difficulty with JPA and are at the end of their tether but nevertheless, there must be a way to bypass the system. Christ, were it me and my job and some cnut at JPAC kept cocking up someones pay despite my best efforts I'd be pissed on behalf of the guy/gal I was trying to help. I wouldnt want to explain to someone for the sixth month in a row that 'it has been sorted now for next month...' I'd be leaving a note on the boss' desk and taking a car up to meet the idiots at JPAC and inform them of the error of their ways! More importantly I'd be seeking a workable solution to plug the short-term problem and a longer-term fix too.

I am no fan of JPA, I think it a seriously ****e system, however I think the root of some problems may be found closer to home.

How to improve it? The system should permit good old human inputs and the ability to perform emergency payments quickly to make up shortfalls. It is unacceptable for anyone to be underpaid for a month but it is enevitable and people accept that. What is wrong is the time taken to correct it and the complete lack of urgencey to give people what they are owed. Those who do get 'advances' to cover what is really theirs anyway are treated as theives and have to sign forms to promise they wont run away with it - it's their bloody money surely! There are also far too many people not being paid at all one month in order to recover debts (surprisingly effecient there then!) - even worse around xmas as mentioned; this is entirely wrong and SHOULD NOT HAPPEN - make it manageable, spread it out, do NOT land your men and women with bank charges and poor credit ratings, it is not the route to productvity.

WHY can someone not grip the system and get it sorted out? If the computer says 'no' then create a work-around for that situation and allow it to be used, even if it involves paper and entering details later when the computer is fixed - it seems the computer is allowed to run out of control and mere humans are not fit to question it - cart before horse? If one month is buggered up allow the balance to be transfered mid-month, not delayed to the next only to find it is still wrong - the month long cycle is morale destroying for those unfortunate enough to have problems and leads directly to the long periods of underpayment we have all seen.

Im going to calm down and stop, one last thought... If a junior officer treated his/her soldiers/airmen/ratings in the way that JPAC and the system at large treated everyone then they would quite rightly be hauled over the coals... perhaps if there are any senior officers in a position to improve matters they might like to think about what corrective advise they might give to an erring junior officer and then reflect. Swearing till blue in the face that the system is fine when it patently is not is an excellent way of loosing everyones respect.:mad:

[Magnersdrinker]

Might be a bit off the mark,but we just received money at the end of Decembers pay packet for money that was due to us in the gulf 6 months earlier. Not like 1 person we are speaking over 50 guys , thats an awfull lot of interest and it just makes you think that they do this deliberate. It sux and its another thing thats lead to the downfall of the UK military , JPA

[backTOfront]

The Armed Forces pay system would run better if a couple of monkeys were handing out the money. :E Coming from Africa, I have first hand experience on monkeys' abilities!

I got sent out to the Far East in October. Since then I have yet to get the proper pay that is entitled to me, 2 types of LOA and LSSA. On top of that some how I owe the RAF £3000:eek:?! No one has been able to tell me yet why I owe £3000! This not helping when I have to live out! Due to this F:mad:k (F@k) up I went overdrawn on one account, which landed me with a nice little £50 bank charge. Then there is the credit card bills and interest I am racking up because it is the only way I can afford living where I do!:*

God help the guy who introduced JPA if I ever meet him. I will revert back to my army days and kick his bloody head in!

[Roland Pulfrew]

Something witty

I am pleased that you are indeed one of the more fortunate members of the Service, however I feel that I have to defend the P staffs on this one (not something I would normally do, but it's only when you lose something that you realise how useful it was)

It is possible that they themselves have had major difficulty with JPA and are at the end of their tether but nevertheless, there must be a way to bypass the system.

Unfortunately the new system does not allow anyone to bypass it. Not the P staffs, not the JPA call centre staff, not even (if my case is to be used as an example) the JPA "Back Room" staff - you know, the ones you really need to speak to but can't e-mail direct or phone direct.

If anyone on the JPA management is reading this I am still waiting a formal response from my formal complaints from last year. I know its only been about 7 or 8 weeks since I submitted them but I haven't even received an acknowledgement!!

[Cpt_Pugwash]

This snippet appears on page 4 of the January issue of Government Computing magazine:--


“MOD defends personnel system

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has blamed payroll errors on its staff’s unfamiliarity with the Joint Personnel Administration (JPA) system.
The JPA was delivered by EDS and handles complex payments and allowances of the armed forces, 300,000 staff across the RAF, the Navy and the Army. They joined the system in April 2006, October 2006 and April 2007 respectively.
The MoD confirmed that between April and August this year38,529 service members were wrongly paid. But it said the system was working well and put the problem down to human error.
“ There are no widespread or systematic problems with the new JPA system, “ a spokesperson told GC. “ Input errors based on a degree of unfamiliarity with the new scheme have resulted in a small number of pay inaccuracies, and measures have been taken to provide additional training for HR administrators to prevent further problems.”
He added that accuracy rates since the full JPA roll out in April have averaged 99.3% and just 263 people were underpaid during October this year.
The spokesperson also insisted that if payments were not authorised within a certain time limit, they were automatically directed to a second line of authorisation.
He said: “JPA is a relatively new system which requires accurate and timely input from individual service personnel and HR administrators. As with anything new, a degree of unfamiliarity with both the system and the processes which support JPA has lead to input errors, which in turn has affected pay accuracy.” "


Link here. (http://www.kablenet.com/kgc.nsf/WebPagesFrontPage/gcAbout%23?expandtab=lyrKB5)

[mustpost]

Related and relevant story in Scotland this morning - mods please redirect if wrong thread.
M
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1968240.0.MoD_cuts_cash_for_frontline_support_tr oops.php

http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/editorial/display.var.1968079.0.Insult_to_our_forces.php

[Mr-Burns]

Anybody thought about asking a well phrased Freedom of Information question of JPAC involving the cases mentioned above??

If they dont answer within 21 days they are breaking the law. Just a thought.

[Epimetheus]

Cpt Pugwash,

When they say HR Administrators, does that mean the JPAC or our RAF admin colleagues? If the latter, then based on Roland Pulfrew's clarification that they can't change anything, how are they supposed to be the ones doing the input?

[Bob Viking]

My proudest achievement since the inception of JPA has to be the day one of the JPAC staff lodged a complaint against ME!
After nearly 14 months of trying to resolve a flying pay related issue, one of my service requests wasn't phrased as politely as perhaps it should have been. The poor little poppet in Glasgow got a little upset and went running to mummy. Thankfully, like everything else in their pathetic, retarded little world, I never heard anything else about it!
BV:ok:

[RobinXe]

Bob, its probably still in the pipeline, you're not safe til you retire or die!

[FCWhippingBoy]

When JPA was initially introduced, I was in the Falklands, and on my return to blighty, JPA still said I was "down south" for months after!

Consequently, I was still being paid allowances that I was not due!

Luckily I noticed, and saved the overpaid amount, but after a few (unsuccesful) attempts to get JPAC to do something about it, the situation was righted, but I'm sure many will be able to pre-empt what came next ... Yup, a deduction from my pay in a few large lumps for a few months, leaving my pay packet looking very pathetic indeed.

I am so glad to see that after nearly 2 years of this system messing people's pay and allowances around, they finally sorted it ... NOT! :ugh:

Bring back SAMA I say!

PS- IDD in a few weeks! I wonder if I'll get it on time?!

[Lurking123]

It makes you wish that Admin Guru was still kicking about..............:eek:

[D-IFF_ident]

So far I've been overcharged over 3 grand for something and underpaid over a grand for something else - I have had nothing back.

Unfortunately, the act of parliament that protects most people from this sort of fiasco appears to be the Employment Rights Act 1996, but all Crown employees are specifically exempt from most of it - including the bit about getting paid - either on time, the right amount, or even at all.

The only place I can see the law actually being broken is that pay statements have to be provided no later than payday - which is not happening.

However, we might be covered under some other regulation regarding money owed. I hear there is a C/T at ISK who has taken JPAC to court about 5 times so far - and won every time. Anyone able to track him down?

Good luck to everyone else affected.

[skaterboi]

Well this thread makes for cheery reading :rolleyes:

Anyway, I am due to go from Medium Rate Flying Pay to High Rate in April. Anything I can do to pre-empt a successful changeover on JPA or do I merely sit tight and hope it all goes OK?

[FCWhippingBoy]

Buckle up and enjoy the ride, Skaterboi!

[Cpt_Pugwash]

Epimetheus,
I read it as the "HR administrators" were JPAC staff, but the spinmeisters also seem to be targeting "individual service personnel".

[StopStart]

I note that when Google now sees "JPA" on a webpage it loads the appropriate adverts, as below.....

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2103/2197011363_c358c701b3_o.jpg

:hmm:

[HeliAviator]

I've been thinking what JPA could actually stand for, how about:

1. Just Plain Appalling
2. Jokers Prating About
3. Jackasses P*ss*ng Around
4. Jabbering Plebs Anonymous

I'm sure there are many more. :D

[Trumpeter Fisher]

Agree with all you say about JPA, what a useless system. Brought in to make the system more efficient and save money. Havn't see a single person in the Pay/Admin Office move on, they are all still there to sort out the daily screw ups, so the MOD pays a fortune for the system and then still has to employ everyone who was working in the Pay Offices to sort out the mess. I've now had 2 terms of CEA not paid. First term, even though my personal info states 2 x children the CSA page shows no children therefore won't let me claim. Second term, enter in all the amounts to be claimed, submit and they all default to zero... result, claim rejected. If we flew our aircraft with such startling efficiency we would probably be sacked!

[c130jbloke]

If we flew our aircraft with such startling efficiency we would probably be sacked!

No, we would all be dead.......

:*:*:*

[Something witty]

RP,

I feel that I have to defend the P staffs on this one (not something I would normally do, but it's only when you lose something that you realise how useful it was)

Thank you for picking me up :ok: I should have been clearer, in this instance I was talking about the staff at my location who have been abysmal; I hope you will understand I did not mean all others, take as you find and all that. I get the impression too that before JPA (with a larger staff) they were in general very good - I have heard this elsewhere, another loss.

Unfortunately the new system does not allow anyone to bypass it. Not the P staffs, not the JPA call centre staff, not even (if my case is to be used as an example) the JPA "Back Room" staff - you know, the ones you really need to speak to but can't e-mail direct or phone direct.

This is exactly my point - the humans have specified and installed a computer system to do a job, ie to pay us on time correctly. It appears that it is not working correctly in all instances (enevitable and acceptable, we must be realistic) but does not facilitate or allow the correction of these errors and delays (a pain in the arrse, poorly written software and unacceptable).

What is TOTALY unacceptable is that the humans that specified and installed this computer system have now become slaves to it! 'The new system does not allow anyone to bypass it.' Fair enough, poor software, but do not tell me that there is no one able to do some good old fashioned paperwork and write and get authorised a MANUAL work-around? (I am talking senior officers here)

Computer says no? Fine, address pay greiviences through a paper backup system and manualy enter the changes at a later date when computer is persuaded to say yes. DO NOT hide behind the 'computer says no' argument because all it demonstrates is that someone has not the spine or can not be arrsed to take responsibility and sort out the problem!

'Ah but the software can't be re-written... ' or ' but it would cost X million to re-write...' So you are saying therefore it is acceptable that those who risk their lives, often away from young families and overseas, are underpaid and fobbed off at every turn from now until the government have sacked the last member of the Armed Forces? (maybe not long then?!)

The reasons people leave are numerous but having the wife/husband pissed off again (as you are) at the cock-up in pay will weaken the reasons to not PVR at the first oppertunity... quite possibly the proverbial straw.

Loose a few pilots early and thats a lot of training cost lost. Loose a cab because the dilution of experience was one of those holes in the swiss cheese of fate and what has been lost then? The premature loss of all ranks and specialisations in all services is costly; fixing JPA, however it is achieved, will ultimatly save more money than it costs as well as being moraly the correct thing to do.

[Roland Pulfrew]

SW

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending JPA!! I think it is a system that is a huge backward step, done on the alter of "efficiency" and purely to make manpower savings. I happen to know that many of those involved in the testing stated that the system was not ready to go live!! But oh no it had to go live on the stated date - we should have turned round to EDS and said "it doesn't do what we want it to do" and insist they fix it before accepting it. I know of one NCO that hasn't been paid by JPA for months; their station has had to revert to manual payments. This is another case of accepting a faulty system because someone at the top was worried about their next promotion (or MBE).

In 20+ years in the RAF I only remember 1 occasion where the RAF cocked up my pay (a pay run that missed the due date but was rectified within a week - with the ability to claim back any bank charges caused by the late pay run). Since JPA arrived I would hazard a guess that I am running at about 50-60% of monthly pay statements correct and 40-50% wrong.

[HeliAviator]

Something Witty

Well written, and something I read there sparked a reminder of the old flight safety film, "Flight safety, what's it got to do with me". Clearly the automon's at JPAC have not seen or heard of the film or have an inkling about human factors or flight safety, after all "what's it got to do with them". I'm sure they have never considered that their cold, uncaring, inefficient non-resolution of a financial problem would affect someone to the point of distraction and create a danger in the air. Nobbing around with a persons pay is a major stressor in an already stressful job where we are under staffed and under resourced. Perhaps the flight safety and human factors chaps at Bentley Priory may wish to join the fray? :ugh:

[Something witty]

RP,

No worries :ok: I understand where you are coming from even if I explained myself badly! Before JPA I saw a few problems but nothing like the present rate and those problems were more easily rectified.

HA,

You have made a very good point. I was more thinking the dilution of experience through high PVR rate (not exclusivly due JPA obviously but a factor illustrating our employer's care for our welfare nevertheless) as a contributry factor.

However, you are absolutly correct in the more immediate flight safety sense and I, as I am sure you, have seen the stress and frustration caused together with the impact on fitness to fly - days lost and enevitably days where stresses and fatigue were higher than they otherwise would be and sorties still flown... holes in cheese again.

A follow-on effect from the purely financial worry is the strain caused on relationships and this will only magnify the immediate flight safety problem... mind on the job? I think not.

Input from Bentley Priory would be interesting indeed although, no disrespect to their work, this should not be seen as just a flight safety issue but a forces-wide retention, morale and moral issue.

[RobinXe]

Perhaps, most importantly, HMG should get their proverbial c*** out of EDS's a**. I used to work for EDS, briefly, some time before I joined up, and they have never, to the best of my knowledge, delivered a project on-time, on-budget and functioning to spec.

[backTOfront]

Back on the ol system and when I was in the army, if we privates had any pay problems we would tell our platoon Sgt. He would then speak to the Admin Warrant Officer and explain to him that if the problem was not rectified withing a few days, The Admin WO would get his head kicked in. It was amazing how few mistakes there were, and how quickly the few mistakes were fixed!:E

Give us the civvies home address who work in the "back halls" of JPAC. As I know a few of my army friends would like to try the same method of "perswaytion"

[Al R]

:ok:

I wonder if the BBC will get 50 e-mails?

[Wader2]

I've been thinking what JPA could actually stand for, how about:

1. Just Plain Appalling
2. Jokers Prating About
3. Jackasses P*ss*ng Around
4. Jabbering Plebs Anonymous

I'm sure there are many more. :D

Jock Pies Again.

Give JPA its due. It came in, it was rolled out to all 3 services on time and it works.









Well it works better than ALFENS ever did or MFMIS that never did.:}

[ZH875]

I like this comment the best:

"Where errors to pay are identified and to ensure there is no financial hardship, there are well defined processes in place to ensure swift payments are made."

Anyone care to comment.....

[Something witty]

"Where errors to pay are identified and to ensure there is no financial hardship, there are well defined processes in place to ensure swift payments are made."

A good spot ZH:ok:

In order to fully understand this statment we need to break it down and remove spin:

'Where errors to pay are identified...' This suggests a process that checks the pay for errors and flags them to the system. It is not a falsehood to suggest it's existance - your overworked underpaid soldier/sailor/airman is the checker and does identify errors to the system... usualy once a month for up to 12 months such is the willingness to accept what is already identified..

'...to ensure there is no financial hardship...' Hardship for who? From where Im standing its the MoD - think how much interest they must accrue from retaining what is really yours - multiplied out over the number serving? So a true statement, can't have the MoD unable to put £1000 chairs in their marble floored offices can we?

'...well defined processess..' indeed there are, named: Ignorance, Lazyness, Poor contracting, Poor Programming, Incompetance, Stupidity and Come Back Next Month.

'...ensure swift payments...' Odd how the deductions are incredibly swift - even so efficient that you were sometimes never meant to have certain deductions. That is what they mean isn't it? Payments to them I mean, after all, we would feel devastated were we to find that we actualy owed them anything and since none of us joined for the money we wont get in the neck from the other half when the rent is due or the bills are left unpaid.

[airborne_artist]

There were a further 7,589 payments where the MoD was unable to say whether they were higher or lower than intended.

"We've no idea what you should be paid, so we've paid you something to tide you over. Let us know if we've underpaid you and we may get round to sorting it out. If we've overpaid you, we'll take it all back next month, which may mean you get nothing at all."

[HeliAviator]

Today, I have received a judgment in my small claims court case against JPAC. The judgment was in my favor and they have been ordered to pay immediately what's owed, plus the interest accrued and the £108 court fee. If they do not comply, enforcement proceedings can be taken against them. At least the court system works.

[Ali Barber]

Would love to see the baliffs turning up!

[airborne_artist]

HeliAv's post is perhaps the most depressing example of the state of the nation you can read.

An officer (though it would make no difference if rating/soldier/airman) has to take the Govt (JPA is a govt agency) to court to get his pay correct.

If that's not breaking the military covenant, I don't know what is?

[Madbob]

Hello HeliAviator. I've just picked up on this thread, mind you being in front of the game was never my strongest point; I went Group 2 and METS after Linton and still have memories struggling with a Wetdream....

I've been in civvy street since 1989 but one thing I remember is having an RAF paybook issued to me. I even used it on occasion at RAF Stanley where cashpoints and banks were a bit thin on the ground!

It seems like it's time to re-introduce pay parades if you as me....

I hope that in addition to the back-pay you get a suitably apology in writing from a senior exec. That would be worth passing on to the press to really rub their noses in the dirt....

Cheers. Madbob.

[HeliAviator]

Chaps if you are banging your head against the JPA wall and getting nowhere, now that I have tested the system and achieved a win, I am putting together an information pack with details of how to take small claims action. It includes; what you should do before taking action to ensure a win, the rough time scale a small claims court action takes, who to address the claim to, copies of the information leaflets available on the subject of small claims court procedure, plus other useful information of how to get the system to buck-up and take you seriously. Should you wish to have this information please PM me and I'll get back to you.
HA :D

[c130jbloke]

HeliAv,

**** man - respect !!!


PS: That is you so screwed on Mon, but please keep up on both the good work against JPA(rse) and the sitreps on the thread. I cannot remember the last time I had such a good read:D:D:D

I was lucky, it only took 3 months to sort out my pay.

[c130jbloke]

HA

Having just read post #65, forget Monday, I reckon you are screwed by about last orders tonight, unless your local mafia try and staff it through said IT system :eek::eek:

Do you have a white headband ready for Mon by any chance (don't forget to get all your mates to sign it before you go into action) ??

But as I said - respect and good for you...

C130JB

[HeliAviator]

C130jbloke

I think you will find that any retaliatory action could be interpreted as harassment under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 s.2. Summarily triable, Penalty: Level 5 (£5,000) and/or 6 months.

Plus kevlar sheets at the ready and I'm well past my pension point.

HA

[Al R]

Well done Heli, nice one. :D

[DFM]

Have PM'd you,

regards,

DFM

[Mmmmnice]

late arrival to this thread - although not directly related one might find it interesting that, 5 months after I left the mob, they were still sending pay statements for net pay of £0 to my old unit! The DS solution was for me to phone them and ask to be taken off the books - obviously the mountain of other paperwork I had already filled out did not achieve this! I only hope that whichever brain cell was used up mis-administrating me was not the one that failed to pay someone else? Good luck one and all........

[adminblunty]

Heliaviator,
Have you considered posting your guide or a link to it on websites such as arrse, rumration and e-goat? the more people who know about it the better.

If they don't pay my terminal grant in Feb...

Great work.:D

[Chugalug2]

Congratulations Heliaviator on your success, and as has already been said how depressing that it should come to this. Your comment earlier was well made:

Perhaps the flight safety and human factors chaps at Bentley Priory may wish to join the fray? :ugh:

From someone who served in the 60s/70s, leaving in 73, this situation seems more applicable to some third world nation rather than this (and yes I realise that they may well be called one and the same now). From this and similar threads there emerges an RAF that has little administrative resemblance to the one of three decades ago. This was the bread and butter of subordinate commanders. Money, Mail, Meals was the mantra. Woe betide any boss who dragged his heels if any one of them required attending to. It seems to me that until the Powers of a Subordinate Commander are reinstated to what they used to be the problems such as housing, messing, pay etc will not be resolved, with the effects implicit in the quote above. Anyone remember the Flight Safety film "Frustration"? It culminated in a Javelin ditching, after a series of jobsworths ensure that the crew end up unfit for purpose. The point of course was that Flight Safety concerns all, including JPA. But Flight Safety would appear to be yet another casualty of the many initiatives taken by the beancounters! Time to return to the old and trusted values and throw out the quangos which are strangling the very formations they were supposed to serve!

[short&shapeless]

HA - what an absolute joke that you had to go to court to get a judgement on this. I won't say reolution as they have not paid up yet but it will be interesting to see what happens if they don't.

One thought as this must be in the public domain now have you approached your MP to have this raised in the HoP - a court judgement against them should not be so easily fobbed off by the chinless wonders.

I wil echo other responses here - how the hell is this not being looked at by the FS people; this is a potential disaster lurking around the corner as any piece of the chain could break if the poor guy/gal is worried about money (or lack of it).

Come you Air Staffs get your noses out of the next bottom up the ladder and DO something because to an outsider JPA certainly don't seem fit for purpose

[Jobza Guddun]

Heli

Well done, and mucho respecto for having the drive and courage to see it through to the end. I hope that there aren't any repercussions for you. :ok:

JG

[BEagle]

Well done, HeliAviator!

I wonder how quick the Press will be to pick up on this?

"Heroes have take MoD to court to get their pay"

Followed by some utterance by an anonymous MoD spookperson that "This was an isolated incident and the MoD is very satisfied with the performance of JPA"...:hmm:

I see the pay fiasco is already in the news:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article720418.ece

[Roland Pulfrew]

I am somewhat concerned by the up to £384 per month. I for one was underpaid by over £1000 per month for at least 3 months!! I know of at least 1 SNCO who hasn't been paid. What does a SNCO get per month? A lot more than £384!!!

[Brown Job]

Heli, out of professional interest, before you went to the Small Claims Court, had you;

Used the SPVA's Complaints procedure, or

Formally Redressed the situation.

I ask so that we may all know what actions you took to help you gain this judgement.

And now having gained it how do you intend to enforce it?

:D

[nigegilb]

Why should you have to use their complaints procedure? Sod it, just take them to court, they don't like it up 'em!

Congratulations Heli, absolutely top stuff!!

[LBGR]

When did we start having to pay for the privelidge of getting f***ed around by computer systems and losing our personal data? My December pay statement, -£60??? Its says I have basic pay arrears but I know I've not been overpayed! Recieved an email from my unit though, saying it will be sorted, so its all ok then! :ugh:

[It's Not Working]

Heli

They should be route-lining and applauding you into work on Monday. Full marks to you and your golden gonads.

[Sempre 206]

HA

Well done - something to cheer about wrt JPA debacle - even if it is for the wrong reasons

adminblunty

A note of caution, my pension lump sum finally came through over 45 days late. I'm in the midst of correspondence with SPVA to resolve the question of the extra interest I paid on the mortgage as a result. If there is not a positive response, my next step will be down the path cut by HA.
One positive thing is that Paymaster (the guys who take care of actually paying the pension) once informed by SPVA were on the ball and got their act together and paid up pronto.

S206

[Overtorque]

Hmm. I'm expecting my lump sum within the next few days (ie within 10 working days of my last day of service). How optimistic am I?! Never mind, my veterans medal (?!) arrived in the post today.

[nigegilb]

Sempre, charge them interest at the full amount (of your lump sum), at commercial rates of interest. It is none of their business what you intended to do with the money.

Under the old system, that worked, I received my lump sum on the last day of service.

The precedent is there and it costs peanuts to take them to the small claims court.

Regards,

Nige

BTW you can get 6.9% in a BS at the mo.

[Al R]

As an aside, does anyone have a steer towards a site which might detail current gratuities? Details of a monthly pension are easy to find, but not the gratuity.

Cheers.

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Gratuities are shown on the Pensions Calculator on the MOD website

http://http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/Personnel/Pensions/ArmedForcesPensions/PensionsCalc/ (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/Personnel/Pensions/ArmedForcesPensions/PensionsCalc/)

I got my gratuity on the 21st Jan after leaving on the 13th - not bad I thought.

HPT

[Al R]

Thanks very much HPT, thats a big help.

Cheers.

[Al R]

I know that it causes a lot of grief, and I don't wish to trivialise things. But the copy which compares JPA to Alexander the Great caused a snorted chaff like cloud of croissant to flutter down onto my puta.

<<The army of Alexander the Great, as it swept across the known world toppling kingdoms and collecting tribute, took its pay clerks and administrators with it. In a back office behind the luxurious tents of the leader and his generals, it's a fair bet there was a scribe bent over an abacus and a clay tablet, making sure the soldiers got their pay, and the spoils of war were shared out fairly.

Soldiers still use tents on operations, and they still need to know that their pay is being administered properly. They also have to worry about lots of things that Alexander’s men didn’t dream of: National Insurance, pension contributions and separation allowance.

Until now, personnel administration for the average British serviceman or woman has largely been a matter of throwing papers in through the pay office door, and running - hoping that the bundle of dog-eared accounts, smudged receipts and requests for advances of pay makes sense to the poor clerk, and that at some point in the future bank accounts will be credited with a sum not too far different from what is owed. It’s a good system for those who are admin-phobic, but it’s no way to run an army (navy, or air force).

"JPA represents a significant culture change. But if we can embrace that change, there will be lots of opportunities for improvements to the way we do business. When I first joined the RAF I was shown the serried rows of clerks filling in forms, and was told by my boss that all these people would be replaced by computers by the time I achieved his rank. He was a little ahead of his time!".

Air Marshal David Pocock
Deputy Chief of Defence Staff (Personnel)>>

Oh David, are you happy with the way that 'business' is being done? Look on the bright side though. Just think of all those serried rows of clerks you can add to your kingdom, processing legal claims.

Link:

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/JpaGoesliveForRafPersonnel.htm (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/JpaGoesliveForRafPersonnel.htm)

[BEagle]

You have a puta under the table whilst having your breakfast croissant and using a computer?

Respect......



putaf vulg whore; casa de ~s brothel fig, everyone for himself,to each his own; ir de ~s to go whoring; hijo de ~ son of a bitch; pasarlas ~s to go through hell

[Al R]

I'm vulgar and gauche - I multitask breakfast. :suspect:

[Old Ned]

"Following the successful court summons by "HA" against the JPA administration, bailiffs this morning removed 25 pcs from the JPA offices."

Following day: "Pay and personal details of all navy, army and air force personnel for sale on ebay. It seems the 25 pcs recently removed from the JPA offices were found on a skip behind the county court with the hard drives removed. MOD deny all responsibility"

Wonder headline: "Owing to the government's faith in JPA, it has arranged for MPs pay and allowances to be managed by this failsafe system. In addition, EDS has also agreed to include their board members' and senior managers' administration on this world-beating wonder". :ok:

Pray that our pensions are never taken on board by JPA. :eek::eek:

[Brown Job]

HA. tell us all what's happening about your Court judgement:ok:

[Bladdered]

JPAC (SPVA bunch) about to take me to Court for recovery of an overpayment of allowances made to me prior to discharge - they wrote to me for recovery of the public debt almost 12 months after I had left but I have ignored their letters. Do they have the ba££s to go to the courts. Dunno, will see:)

Nice one Heliaviator:D

[HeliAviator]

Hi chaps, thanks for the support. The process is still moving forward and I am at least getting a lions share of the salary owed this month, less the interest and court fee. This sum is still a sticking point on their side of the as they do not know how to account for this money and get the required authorization and pay it.

The problem on my pay account still exists as the computer still says "no" and is on going. :ugh:

I still have some patience left, but I expect to apply for an enforcement order on Monday if the issue is not resolved by COP Friday. The court will then apply for a seizure warrant and competent bailiffs instructed to take the necessary action.

Wait out.

HA

[Odie]

Good to see someone kicking the system up it's a:mad:e. They have to realise that these pay and allowance cock-ups have a knock on effect on people's lives. :ugh:

[Madbob]

Well done HeliAviator. I admire your patience. At least in civvy street if you don't get paid you can walk....I left the air farce in 1989 and by the sound of these posts have nothing to regret.

Just a thought though, I wonder what would happen if JPA was responsible for MP's pay and allowances?

Keep up the good work.

Madbob.

BTW does anyone know which agency does have responsibility for MP's pay?

[airborne_artist]

BTW does anyone know which agency does have responsibility for MP's pay?

They'll be paid by Parliament, which is independent of of central govt., which is why their web domain is parliament.uk, not parliament.gov.uk

[TMJ]

They'll be paid by Parliament, which is independent of of central govt., which is why their web domain is parliament.uk, not parliament.gov.uk


Actually, a number of govt depts don't bother with the .gov.; vide nhs.uk or, indeeed, raf.mod.uk...

[ORAC]

I see HeliAviator, at least I assume it is he, has made the Sunday Torygraph..

RAF officer sues MoD over pay fault - and wins (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=M3GSRRF15ZAK1QFIQMGSFFOAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2008/02/03/nraf103.xml)

[BEagle]

A spokesman for the MoD admitted that money was still owed to the pilot and that it would be paid in the next few days. He added: "The MoD apologises for this isolated incident caused by an administrative error."


Isolated incident?

[Tourist]

"The MOD apologises for this isolated incident..."

http://bestsmileys.com/lol/1.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/lol/1.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/lol/1.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/lol/1.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/lol/1.gif

[nigegilb]

Please please please, affected servicemen, ignore the ineffective complaints procedure and go straight for the small claims court. Do us all a favour and debunk the straight lie that this is an "isolated incident".

[Lima Juliet]

Nige, well said :D

[LFFC]

I suppose the "isolated incident" that the MOD is referring to is fact that someone has taken them to court!

spin - spin - spin

[nigegilb]

Isolated Incident?


Opposition MPs said the figures, disclosing that servicemen and women were underpaid 50,000 times last year, showed that the Armed Forces continued to be let down by incompetence at the Ministry of Defence.

During the past year some soldiers on the front line have defaulted on mortgages after receiving incorrect payments.

The Joint Personnel Administration (JPA), introduced at a cost of £269 million, was meant to simplify the military's pay and allowances system.

But figures released to the House of Lords showed that 50,764 monthly wage packets were short last year, some by up to £350.

The figures also show that thousands in the Army, Navy and RAF had to reimburse the MoD after JPA made 20,000 overpayments.

[Al R]

Well done to the Telegraph for tracking this one down.

I just hope that JPAC realises it has an implicit and explicit DUTY to get things right on behalf of those who they serve. There is absolutely no point whatsoever in Brown & Browne making grandiose statements about re-establishing the Military Covenant (sp?) if we can't even pay people properly. The apathy is institutional and the indifference that I get with the Veterans Agency is almost palpable. Its as if they're doing me a favour by them doing what they're paid to do.

The problem is as much about culture as anything - a Typhoon pilot wouldn't get very far without an LAC making his breakfast every morning. JPAC and the ethos it carries, is the type of organisation that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Just as our common DNA compels us to reflect on fallen comrades and friends, as we gather in muddy Rutland fields to remember those who had the same values and ethos as us 40 years ago, the gulf in our values and those around us within the MoD gets wider. Is it any wonder the wider population doesn't understand/know/care, if organisations like JPAC treat the uniformed elements with contempt? That this attitude and mindset has sanction at the highest level is despairing.

The wheel will turn full circle one day, I have absolutely no doubt, because the most snidy and successful of corporate trolls are always good at dreaming up ways of reinventing the wheel for their own ends. But for now, I hope that some minor McAir Marshalls, Des Browne and CAS are smarting in a suitably ashamed manner over their scrambled eggs this morning and that some people are sacked, not retired, not shuffled about.. but sacked. Somehow though, I doubt it. Nowadays, we publish 'Charters', reward indifference and deter endeavour. But well done Heli. I hope this signifies a turnaround in matters and that what you've done is a catalyst for the troops getting what they deserve. And thats the tragedy of it all - that you have to fight to be treated fairly, with a minimum of respect and in a professional manner.

Air Chief Marshall Torpy, can it be that difficult for you to get the basics right?

[LFFC]

Al R

It's not only in the Telegraph. Sad to say, but it's also in the Sunday Mirror (http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2008/02/03/mod-sued-by-pilot-for-pay-98487-20307088/).

It seems to have caused quite a bit of interest over on ARRSE (http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=88149/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=0.html) as well.

[xraydice]

Bailiffs taking the computers, not if a mate of mine is tasked on this one , now fixed or rotary ?

Good show though HA

[PE4rocks]

It seems to have caused quite a bit of interest over on ARRSE (http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=88149/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=0.html) as well


It caused me to come across and join, in spite of my Brylcreem allergy :).
Bloody well done that pilot.

[Maxeret]

Congratulations HA, first of many me hopes! :D

[SirToppamHat]

some by up to £350.

Not sure where they got that figure from. I know at least one RAF SNCO who received a paypacket entirely devoid of pay (Total Due £0.00), and I am pretty sure he wasn't the only one!

STH

[Spam_UK]

My first pay packet from JPA was the same. £0.00.

The chief clerks face was a picture when I showed it to her. I think that was the point where she realised how much of a problem JPA would be.

I also liked the MOD's advice the month before to keep a months wages in the bank "just in case". Because of course, everyone has a months pay to spare! :rolleyes:

[nav attacking]

Whilst we are slagging off both:

A cannibal was walking through the jungle and came upon a restaurant operated by a fellow cannibal. Feeling somewhat hungry, he sat down and looked over the menu...

+ Tourist: £5
+ Broiled Missionary: £10.00
+ Fried Explorer: £15.00
+ Baked Politician/Air Rank: £100.00

The cannibal called the waiter over and asked,
'Why such a price difference for the politicians and Air Ranks?'

The cook replied, "Have you ever tried to clean one? They're so full of $£!?, it takes all morning.:E:E:E

[Madbob]

Well done HA. What's the betting that JPA's plonkers will "forget" that there are 29 days in Feb this month?

[ZH875]

Well done HA. What's the betting that JPA's plonkers will "forget" that there are 29 days in Feb this month?

Doesn't matter if they do, as you are paid 365¼ days/12 per month, so the same pay every month, and that SHOULD include February.

Doesn't stop them cocking it up though........

[mustpost]

Hi just popping in to say it's running in Scotland this morning as well..

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/other/display.var.2015393.0.RAF_pilots_pay_victory_may_open_floodg ates_for_claims.php

[Jambo Jet]

I too suffered a pay c*ck up when my terms of service changed last year. The hassle and inactivity of the people at JPAC was very frustrating. It is good to see someone has done something about it and hopefully they will get resolution.

Now I am anticipating a pension faff which will no doubt happen shortly when I leave. Glasgow no longer offer pension forecasts as apparently there is an online pension calculator to cater for this. Unfortunately it does not give correct info for PAS personnel who leave before they have completed 5 years. Thanks for your help - Glasgow.

Interesting thread.

[Wader2]

Doesn't matter if they do, as you are paid 365¼ days/12 per month, so the same pay every month, and that SHOULD include February. ........

Pay maybe, but what about allowance?

[Climebear]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZH875
Doesn't matter if they do, as you are paid 365¼ days/12 per month, so the same pay every month, and that SHOULD include February. ........

Pay maybe, but what about allowance?

and also SLA/SFQ charges :{

[ZH875]

Fortunately, the last line of my post was:

Doesn't stop them cocking it up though........

Still, I am one of the lucky one's as it doesn't affect me anymore.

I just hope they don't want any of my JPA reciepts for the last year or so, as the day after I left, I had a wastebin fire at the bottom of my garden, unfortunately, all my GPC reciepts were in the same bin.:O

[BEagle]

Surely there must be one 'leader' at least who can stand up and say:

"Enough of this JPA crap. GET IT FIXED NOW!!!"

If not, why not.

"This RAF is operational as regards its aircraft. But not, I repeat not, as regards its personnel".

[Spotting Bad Guys]

Jambo Jet

Unless it's changed in the past 6 months or so you can get a pension forecast - I had one done in the summer. What you can't get is more than one a year unless you're willing to pay - wait for it - £150! Given that the forecast I got was little more than a print out from the pensions calculator anyway, I'd save your money.....

SBG

[Wader2]

Hi chaps, thanks for the support. The process is still moving forward

And to no great surprise:

"With effect from 1 Feb 08, SPVA JPA Service Complaints will be dealy with by the SPVA Complaints Cell at Kentigern House, Glasgow. They will subsume responsibilities undertaken by the Customer Support Team."

So looks like the CST got the heave ho and some other poor s:mad:s have just got another shed load of work.

[klingonbc]

HA,
Like many other Ppruners I am holding my breath for you. Any news? And if the bailiffs do go in I hope there is going to be appropriate coverage? Well done for having the integrity to take the stand you have. I had to redress my beloved Service over an obvious injustice some time ago and I am glad to say "their airships" found in my favour. If only the responsible management had taken responsibility rather than hiding behind inappropriate regulations? I remember the stress it put me through and how it angered me. What I didn't realise was how it was affecting my work, both in the air and on the ground. It was only a trusted colleague who told me later. I hope your situation is under control - just remember the old mantra - don't let the b'stards get you down.
KBC

[Pontius Navigator]

just remember the old mantra - don't let the b'stards get you down.
KBC

nil carborundum illiegitamus

[Riskman]

"With effect from 1 Feb 08, SPVA JPA Service Complaints will be dealy with by the SPVA Complaints Cell at Kentigern House, Glasgow. They will subsume responsibilities undertaken by the Customer Support Team."

Does this mean that MoD civil servants have taken on the job of dealing with complaints which were originally handled by an MoD contractor? Will there be a financial adjustment to reflect the fact that the MoD is now doing work which it had originally contracted-out?

[HeliAviator]

An update on the current situation, the fight goes on. The report in the Telegraph was I believe, about myself, although approached by the journalist/writer I did not supply the details, as these are in the public domain if you know where to look for them. However
A spokesman for the MoD admitted that money was still owed to the pilot and that it would be paid in the next few days. He added: "The MoD apologises for this isolated incident caused by an administrative error."

No apology has been received and no interest or court fee have been paid as of this post and the administrative error is still extant. :ugh:

I mentioned last week that I would apply for a warrant of execution to claim the outstanding interest and court fee. I decided, due to the quote above to wait out and see if this would happen. It has not and therefore I intend to apply for the warrant of execution tomorrow, this is at a cost of £55 which will be added to the outstanding sum.

I am having a few web site hosting problems at the moment, the details of how to make progresss with your pay issues and take Small Claims Court action should be available soon.

HA

[Epimetheus]

HeliAviator,

Check your 6. Could it be that the web problems are the precursor to the black Omega arriving?:eek:

[HeliAviator]

What you might need to know ............... removed for a few tweeks, back soon!

HA

[SaddamsLoveChild]

well done chap, wonder how long before the DII fun police block access from the MOD Web.

[Wader2]

well done chap, wonder how long before the DII fun police block access from the MOD Web.

Sorry for a bit of serious thread drift but probably more interesting than JPA any way. hhere is one the fun police missed:

http://www.naughtynaughtynorman.co.uk/


If you are not on DII its not worth it.:}

[Len Ganley]

Wader,

Thank for posting that link. Made another boring afternoon bearable.
Hoping I get a visit from Santas' Daughters this year - it'll be better than a pair of socks:ok:

[HeliAviator]

After a recent correspondence received I must inform you that I have been informed, that the small claim court is not the legal method to proceeding when all other paths fail. When I took the initial action I was presented incorrect legal advice, which I naturally took verbatim. A limited transcript of the correspondence is posted at www.heliaviator.co.uk (http://www.heliaviator.co.uk/) and this explains the situation pertaining to the matter.

There was intention to mislead and I apologies to those who may feel this is the case. I merely wished to find a resolution to my issue and to highlight the problems faced by others in similar situations. I have always advised the the full and correct path of resolution be followed before undertaking legal action and then only with the advice of a solicitor.

I have deliberately not taken a swipe at the three services or the admin/HR personnel therein, I have never had an issue in this area and they have tried, albeit unsuccessfully to resolve the issue on my behalf numerous times and I thank them for that. The issue is still unresolved, though as of last week there is a very helpful chap working on it and I have been paid up to date now, though still at the old rate!

So, to those considering the small claims court route, I would council against it as it would appear it is the incorrect legal process and it may well cost you money.

HA

[SirToppamHat]

There was intention to mislead

Eh? Shurely Shome Mishtake Ed?

STH

[Al R]

Heli,

I, and I'm sure that everyone else, accept that you have always acted in good faith and after being exposed to prolonged intolerable treatment, and that no apology is due. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and I am sure too that if JPA has been stung into raising its game to the very bare minimum required of it, then that will be seen as a win in its own right.

Good luck, keep us informed. :D

PS: You might want to proof sentence one, para 2? ;)

[Shackman]

I wonder how much the legal advice cost MoD just to get that letter written (it certainly looks like it was written by a very senior legal personage). Probably more than was outstanding - although maybe not to all those who have been :mad: by JPA.


I'm just glad I got out before this debacle started, although I have the misfortune of watching a good 50% of my military colleagues trying to sort out pay problems almost every month - and seen at first hand how it appears to be the prime reason for people abandoning a service career.

Nevertheless congratulations HA for at least getting something done (and on getting your back pay!).

[Biggus]

If I don't have a contract with the government (which I didn't think I did) how does that effect my rights to terminate my 'non employment', and the governments ability to change my 'terms and conditions' without consultation?? Does this 'official' statement open some doors while closing others?

Sorry if I am drifting off thread!



By the way, in terms of othe avenues to be taken, such as internal redress, I thought I heard that redresses were taking several years to resolve on many occassions, which is great if it is your pay they are getting wrong!!!

[D-IFF_ident]

I am confused: did you get an order from a court or not? If you did then the argument from the MoD must surely be with the judge or magistrates who allegedly made an incorrect and/or illegal judgement. It is one of the many duties of the court to ensure proper procedure.

I am also confused about the reference to a contract; there are specific parts of the Employment Rights Act 1996 that are relevant to members of HM Forces. See http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/ukpga_19960018_en_18#pt13-ch1-pb1-l1g192

It suggest that you DO have a contract, of sorts. Specifically:

For the purposes of the application of provisions of this Act in relation to Crown employment in accordance with subsection (1)—
(a) references to an employee or a worker shall be construed as references to a person in Crown employment,
(b) references to a contract of employment, or a worker’s contract, shall be construed as references to the terms of employment of a person in Crown employment,


Should we all assume that you now have a 1021 to hang on you toilet wall?

I feel a hint of black Omega lurking behind your most recent post.

[Melchett01]

Whether or not the correct legal processes have been followed is largely irrelevant in term of the moral position.

So, the Treasury Solicitor was not served with the papers. And a lengthy redress procedure, which may or may not have found in favour of HA after many months or even years, was not gone through. All this means is that MOD will get off on a technicality. There can be absolutely no doubt here in my mind, that the MOD are morally liable for this state of affairs getting as far as it did. I would possibly even go so far as to say that which ever senior officers signed off on the whole JPA debacle are guilty of negligence - it should have been clear to almost any reasonable person that implimenting this system in the way they did was bound to be a disaster, leading to problems of under/over payment and general administrative failure.

If nothing else, I hope the publicity surrounding this case has embarrassed a few of their airships into looking into just why JPA is so unfit for purpose and doing something about it.

[RobinXe]

Yes, very suspect. One might find little wonder to the manner in which they have clearly been fastidious in doing their homework on the case after the judgement has been entered. If they had been so thorough firstly with the administration of pay, and secondly with their legalities at the time of the court case then they wouldn't have to resort to writing 'naughty, naughty' letters after the fact, and when they are still clearly in the wrong!

Incidentally, it is my understanding that a implicit contract does exist, regardless of the lack of signatures, due to the fact that you continue to show up for work every day in good faith, and they continue to pay you at the end of the month (including flying pay), thus establishing a previous course of conduct.

[dallas]

I don't think the letter says don't take Court proceedings, it says make sure you've pursued all other avenues first, which he had not, and sue the MoD, not JPAC, who are just another office within the former.

As for Shackman commenting on the seniority of the 'legal personage' who replied, I'm not sure many lawyers would volunteer free advice to the plaintiff on how to do it properly next time, unless there was a degree of sympathy somewhere.

[uncle peter]

A cynical person may be inclined to think that this is an attempt to bluff their way out of any responsibility.

By stating that proper procedures have not been followed wrt complaints procedure would, i am sure, make them think that this "isolated incident" is defendable and that they could claim the moral high ground!

Everyone who has applied for a Redress of Complaint knows how much of an inherently toothless and time consuming procedure it is. It is the reliance on this complaint procedure which allows those that can to introduce such follies knowing that any complaint will take months / years to have any impact.

As JPAC is civilianised, what we need is a timely complaint procedure outwith the military chain of command. Ideally, what we need is a judicial review.

Heliaviator- Sir, I take my hat off to you. Irrespective of whether "proper" procedure was followed, it appears that the desired result was acheived which is what counts above all else.

[dallas]

Incidentally, it is my understanding that a implicit contract does exist, regardless of the lack of signatures, due to the fact that you continue to show up for work every day in good faith, and they continue to pay you at the end of the month (including flying pay), thus establishing a previous course of conduct.
I think it's more likely that your attestment/commissioning papers saw you sign-up to military law, which includes stuff like 'following all legal orders' (or words to that effect), such as devolved power to subordinate commanders to issue shift rosters/working hours through section orders.

You don't show-up to work because of a contract; you do so to avoid getting jailed.

p.s. ditto what uncle peter says - lots of people talk the talk...

[Al R]

Back in the 1990's, I was screwed, badly, by the admin system. Simply put, I was away for 6 months and rather than an overissue being taken back properly, it was all taken back in one go (2, actually) and as a result, my family was left with next to no money for 6 weeks. This of course, before the days of mobile phones and interweb. When I found out, I requested that I was reimbursed and that the overissue be taken back at more sympathetic levels. That was denied and my wife ran up some serious bank charges through no fault of her own. To cut a long story mercifully short, I summoned the stn cdr to the local small claims court. A day or two later, I received a phone call from his pa. Would I like to drop in, sometime soon? I had already sent him a memo telling him that with deep regret, I had no other course of action open to me. With trepidation I attended, and received an apology, and a very nice letter (Dear Cpl R, Thank you for the courtesy of giving me advance notice of your legal action against me.. ). I have it still, such politeness :E.

Anyway, it was all very civil. We agreed that I should drop the action if he sorted out the problem, pronto. He asked, with a furrowed brow, why I hadn't followed the chain. I told him that I had no faith in the chain to be impartial (I had a heavily moustached, 2 faced, spineless, stocky, black haired Scottish sqn cdr who wasn't worth the steam off..) and more importantly, its ability to address my concerns in a timely manner.

Either way, I got the result. The point here, is that Heli had no other option but to do what he did. Crown immunity is a right that will very quickly evaporate if we continue to entrust our values to the cocks that we seem to be doing. I despise the current mentality which seems to excuse shedding the philosophy of doing things better than anyone else or to the highest possible standard. Now it seems, we are content to do things as well as everyone else, because thats all we have to do, and after all.. there's safety in numbers. The sooner the RAF starts accepting that admin is a pivotal part of Battle Procedure, Management and Leadership, and the sooner we start sacking Wing Commanders and other middle ranking managers who are happy to allow this situation to continue, the sooner we'll start seeing an end to this disgraceful decline of standards that we are seemingly happy to expose our officers and airmen to, and which is causing a decline in retention.

Good Admin is vital. When will the powers that be wake up to that fact? Is it because FJ pilots within the upper echelon have never had to deal with real world people throughout their careers, and their exposure to them and their real world problems is subsequently minimal, and is it because admin types know they have to keep their aircrew lords and masters sweet, in order to progress??

[Chugalug2]

Good Admin is vital. When will the powers that be wake up to that fact? Is it because FJ pilots within the upper echelon have never had to deal with real world people throughout their careers, and their exposure to them and their real world problems is subsequently minimal, and is it because admin types know they have to keep their aircrew lords and masters sweet, in order to progress??

Way to go Al! Absolutely 100% spot on! Money, Mail, Meals, wasn't just rhetoric but the very basis of how old time subordinate commanders...commanded! Having lost their powers they have become like everyone else in the CoC- jobsworths! Nothing is anyone's fault or responsibility, it always ends up with a proverbial shrug of the shoulders and some Homerism like; "Yeah, well, what can you do?" Give back those powers or the Armed Forces will collapse under the contradictions that JPA etc imply. I was lucky in my time (60s/70s) I had good bosses who could and did make things happen. If the RAF is to survive it must reclaim that capability.
Meanwhile HA well done. As has been said you are in the right and the MOD is in the wrong. That it will not do the decent thing merely proves my point, as does the fact that you are on your own! Where is your boss?

[Al R]

A flt commander would sink or swim depending on his FS's grasp of admin, end of story. Its all about caring, genuinely caring, for your men and understanding that your success and your life depends on their happiness and ability to focus on doing their jobs. Its not rocket science, there's no need to have such crap as 'understanding strategies for coping with change' or the rest of it on the syllabus and we can forget this media handling boll:mad:cks, this contrived sense of making leadership something that it isn't. Did Patton, Mad Mitch or the rest of them have any of that sh:mad:te?

No.

I’m sitting here, the smell of cowsh:mad:t eminating from my trainers, my body is steaming and I’m sweating like a pg after a short run. I focus on things that make me angry, to keep me going, these days. And what I’ve been thinking about is this entire business. The only thing that Heli did wrong was not call Torpy or Loader as witnesses. I would have done.. I would have stuck their sorry, well tailored ars:mad:s on the stand and asked why they spent so much effort on b:mad:ll**** pr stunts and not on paying their men. I would have asked him how much priority they gave to their men being on ops, thousands of miles from home and asking whether or not their minds weren’t on the job because they were worried about the mortgage being paid in time or not because a couple of incompetent 1 and 2 stars made a big career gambit out of suggesting that a few quid could be saved by employing a few unskilled moneys who'd work for peanuts and deliver accordingly.

How can men concentrate on active service if they have some admin f:mad:ckwits back in the UK who can’t even be arsed to make sure they get paid properly? For the MoD to remotely rely on the defence (as forwarded by Heli) would be like them requesting permission to fall on their swords – they wouldn’t have the balls to do it in this day and age, and climate. The media would ask; what is the point of the g’ment suggesting to the country that we all honour this military covenant, when the damned MoD can’t even be arsed to do it. It is the defence of an organisation devoid of integrity and that knows the price of something, but the value of nothing. Every single sorry ar:mad:ed Air Member who had or who has anything to do with this disgraceful state of affairs shoul;d be court martialled, end of story.

We ask if the RAF will reach 100? Christ, I hope not. If Alzheimer’s has set in this bad at 90, god only knows how pitiful it’ll be at 100. And it’ll only have itself to blame. Lead by twonks who care only for themselves and their careers, its like Blackadder Goes Forth all over again. I'd sack the lot of them, I really would. If we ever needed a board of governers such as the BBC has, its now. One thing is clear, the future of the RAF is currently in unsafe hands and our most cherished and valuable assets, our men and women, are being treated with contempt. I despair, I really really do, when I think of this. I almost seethe with anger at how the cream of our population can be treated with such arrogant and dismissive indifference, and now I'm off for a wind down and a shower.

Please - whoever told the Telegraph about this, can you also tell BBC Watchdog. I long to see Torpy sitting in that chair (on a cushion) infront of the smarmy Nikki C.. 'So, your Air Generalship, how long has it been since you were happy with the level of administrative service your men have been getting, and how many times has YOUR pay been messed up?'.

Shot over.. shot out.

Al.

[TheInquisitor]

So, to those considering the small claims court route, I would council against it as it would appear it is the incorrect legal process and it may well cost you money.

So what route DO we take? I notice that your letter fails to mention this!

Bottom line - you went to court because you were owed money, you got a judgement in your favour, end of story. The MoD is trying to wriggle out of it on a technicality and to scare people into not taking the same route. I don't see how it's possible for anybody to incur costs to themselves, since bringing a small claims court case is a one-off fee, and the judgement cannot possibly go against you as you are owed the money!

Letters like these are, I believe, referred to in legal circles as "Bluff and Bluster". If, as you say, the matter remains unresolved, I'd take them to court again, this time citing MoD as the defendent. It cannot possibly cost you more than the small claims court fee.

All the bollocks about 'proper procedures not being followed' is simply that - bollocks. You were owed money, they didn't pay it to you, you sued and the court agreed. Internal procedures of any body are irrelevant to the court.

It is painfully obvious that you have been leant on quite heavily to post what is effectively a retraction. Tell them to f**k off, pay you properly, and keep fighting until they do. You have both the legal and moral high ground. Ignore that letter - it is only a solicitor's opinion, and the only opinion that counts is the judge's - and you already have that.

[cornish-stormrider]

HA, good work fella, ignore the black Omega parked outside an sue em again. thry don't like it up 'em. What are they going to do send you to the glasshouse?? Let the tabloids get hold of that badger!

AL R Nice words.........

Duck for the incoming shower of something brown and smelly from MOD main building.

[dallas]

Its all about caring, genuinely caring, for your men and understanding that your success and your life depends on their happiness and ability to focus on doing their jobs. Its not rocket science, there's no need to have such crap as 'understanding strategies for coping with change' or the rest of it on the syllabus and we can forget this media handling boll:mad:cks, this contrived sense of making leadership something that it isn't. Did Patton, Mad Mitch or the rest of them have any of that sh:mad:te?
That is the nail hit squarely on the head and, I suggest, the root of many of our other problems. The latest fad is apparently 'pillars of leadership', which I'm sure will see a fresh raft of glossy publications, maybe a newly built 'leadership centre' and lots of middle ranking officers sat in groups, feigning interest and looking erudite while the duty airship delivers the opening address. But sitting around chatting about air power doctrine and battle space management isn't leadership. Making sure your blokes have decent accom is leadership; making sure they eat before you on a sandy det is leadership; knowing cpl B's kids names is leadership; properly backing up people when they make a decision is leadership; empowering them to do the job and excel at it without micro-managing is leadership; asking questions is leadership. I could go on...

If they're going to have a crack at leadership, they also need to tackle selection and stopping the toadying, self-interested to$$ers that have infiltrated the Service from getting any higher! How about good old 2-week selection courses where people can be properly assessed and not slide upwards because of good/bad reports? We've already got much greater waste of time courses than one to properly select our future leaders.

[Chugalug2]

At post #148, I asked HeliAviator:
Where is your boss?
Unfair I know, and I didn't really expect an answer, but the absence of any reference to bosses in this thread, other than Al R's dismissive mention of his, speaks volumes. I have raised this old canard before, but it is so fundamental that I feel compelled to rake over old ground yet again. The basic problem to my mind lies not in JPA, grossly inept though it obviously is, but in the lack of effective man (sorry, I'm old school) management in the modern RAF. If my flying pay had stopped dead, with no satisfaction from Stn Accts etc, I would have been knocking on my boss's door to sort it. He would have done so! Why? Because that was his bloody job! Why is it not a boss's job these days? If he is powerless to do so, then I'm sorry, but he isn't a boss! All this talk of 'contracts' is piffle. The only contract that counted was between you and your boss. You gave him your loyalty and maximum effort. In return he gave you support and protection to his maximum effort. I have been the recipient of such maximum effort, which in turn reinforced my loyalty and effort, and inspired others likewise. Replace that system with someone who merely passes everything up the line so that it disappears into oblivion, and I can't see the difference between the RAF and Tescos, except that one at least can look back to better days. If this all appears provocative, well guilty as charged. The real debate should be about the powers of subordinate commanders. The day that they were arbitrarily reduced was the day that the Armed Forces became uniformed departments of the MOD.

[TheInquisitor]

Some great and poignant stuff here - that nail has been hit on the head so many times on this page it's all the way into the wood now!

The crux of the problem isn't JPA itself - yes it's a user-unfriendly package that isn't anywhere near suited to our needs, but if it was just the software we had to deal with, we could make it work, after a fashion.

No, the REAL problem is one of accountability - in days gone by, the Chf Clk and OC Admin were responsible for ensuring that you were paid. More recently, it was PMA. Now, it seems that NOBODY is responsible - at least, nobody that you can directly reach or complain about - which is why all of that bollocks about going through the proper channels IS bollocks - there ARE no proper channels anymore! If the JPAC want to ignore you or treat your problem with contempt, they can quite easily do so, and there is ****-all you can do about it, apart from the route taken by HA.

Getting back to HA's "Naughty Boy" letter - it worrys me a great deal. For if what is contained therein is true (and I seriously doubt that particular solicitor's opinion is worth the steam off my poo, TBH) then MoD are under NO legal obligation to pay us AT ALL, and that CANNOT be the case.

Keep going HA - all the way to the Lords if you have to.

Alternatively, the sight of many uniformed protestors demonstrating outside the JPAC might focus their attention somewhat....

[larssnowpharter]

I am totally bloody appalled after reading this thread.

I left the RAF some 12 years ago after 24 yrs and rarely make comment on the military fora, however……

Way back when I was doing IOT I recall an incident during our classroom Leadership Training. This involved the old Management By Objectives (MBO) stuff. There was a break and a Warrant Officer came into the class and said something along the lines of:

‘Load of feckin’ bullsh1t all this stuff. All you gotta remember about bein’ a leader is to:

1. Tell the guys clearly what is required
2. Listen to yer NCO
3. Make sure they are paid on time
4. Make sure they are fed
5. Make sure they have a roof over their heads

You do that an’ they’ll think yer Lord bloody Nelson.’

Advice that stood me in pretty good stead.

Looks like some old wisdom has been lost.

[L J R]

Will you guys pay a little to help the lad?, and assist in helping him with his un-refunded legal fees, costs and future outlays.

[1.3VStall]

Chug 2,

You are entirely right to focus on the word "boss".

When I emerged from training all those years ago and reached my first squadron we had a cracking boss who had all the leadership qualities that seem to be so sadly lacking in today's budget holders and managers. He knew everyone from the most junior LAC to his flight commanders, their names, their family situations and their problems. He set a fine example and he would fight anyone's corner if he believed it was right. In return, his squadron would jump through hoops for him.

That was well over 30 years ago, yet when I occasionally see him at a reunion I still call him "boss". Why? because any other form of address would seem inappropriate. He will always be the boss.

What ever happened to men like that?

[Pontius Navigator]

We had one like that, and he wasn't even my boss.

Dining In night, Mrs PN needed me home asap. The SDO hadn't got the gumption to pass a note through the Mess Manager. When the dinner broke up the barman took a call and tried to find me.

The 'boss' said I know where he is and came and broke the news. My own boss? His eyes were too focused and it was very dark where he was.

[ExGrunt]

A limited transcript of the correspondence is posted at www.heliaviator.co.uk (http://www.heliaviator.co.uk/) and this explains the situation pertaining to the matter.

A very interesting letter - clearly intended to head off further claims. So anyone else considering legal action must learn from HA's experience -viz:

Defendant: Secretary of State for Defence
Defendant's address:
C/O The Treasury Solicitor's Department
One Kemble Street
London
WC2B 4TS

Just because one cannot sue under contract does not mean there is NO cause of action. The great thing about the law is there is always more than one way to skin a cat. An obvious alternative is 'Unjust enrichment'. ie they are enriched by keeping money that is rightfully yours. A side benefit of that route is that compound rather than simple interest is available to claimants.

Anyone considering legal action should have a read of the Civil Procedure Rules CPR and County Court Rules CCR http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/menus/rules.htm
These are the court system's manuals. As with everything in life RTFM applies, in particular:

CPR 27 'The Small Claims Track' (For claims upto £5,000)

and

CPR 66 'Crown Proceedings'

As always anyone considering legal action should consult a solicitor - making sure that they have some experience of dealing with the military, so are aware of the unusual features of being a member of the armed forces.

I bet that someone in the MoD is absolutely wetting themselves at the moment. If the threat-o-gram to HA doesn't work I expect the next claimant will find they are up against a heavyweight legal team. But remember on the small claims track you are not liable for the other sides costs if you lose - unless you behave unreasonably as defined in CPR part 27.

HTH

EG

[nigegilb]

Strikes me that the phrase, "opened up the floodgates" has spooked the MoD. It costs fifty quid to try it, I say, crack on and let's get a 2nd case in court.

HA, as ever, hats off to you sir, if I can help in any way, don't hesitate.

[Chugalug2]

In Praise of Bosses


First tour Changi 63/66 (it was hell, but someone had to do it!). Boss not only i/c aircrew (6 man crews) but groundcrew also (1st line servicing). Chiefies complain no NAAFI wagon for nightshift. NAAFI manager confirms as not profitable. Boss says then he’ll go elsewhere, manager reminds him of NAAFI monopoly on MOD property, boss reminds him that operational efficiency of Sqn depends on groundcrew, and they depended on NAAFI wagon! Boss gets Stn Cdrs support, negotiates with local contractor, agrees rates for bacon butties, chocolate milk, etc, etc, all public costs (water, heat, rent etc), sub to Sqn Fund, remainder his. NAAFI manager apoplectic, seeks backing from Whitehall Uberfuhrer who sends out emissaries. Boss and Stn Cdr stand firm. Local contractor remains with Sqn for approx 3 years until it is stood down prior to base closure.
Import wife from far off land, place her in MQ in rural Wiltshire and fly off on various gruelling trainers (they were hell, but someone had to fly them!). While inbound on one and staging Lajes receive signal; “ Regret to inform you Father in Law dead, wife en-route xxxx, will meet you on return, regards Boss”. He is first on board on arr LYN; “Did you get my signal?”, ‘Yes Boss’, “and is it OK?”, as he feared I would resent wife being re-exported to said far off land! He had received call at OChundred from duty snowdrop at our dormitory station serving LYN. “Very upset wife of your Flt Lt Chug here Sir, she has received a telegram from her brother saying that their father has died. She wants to fly to MIA to meet her brother and fly on to xxxx. Boss speaks to wife, calms her down, confirms her tale, tells her to get packed and he is on his way. Phones BN and arranges compo on Washington VC10, drives mini to our place, bundles wife and bag into car, proceeds at alarming speed to BN streaming yellow a/f flag, rushes her thru check in up stairs into moon-rocket, last aboard doors close behind her, boss waves bye bye! Rushes back to sqn (who are wondering where he has got to), sends signal to BDLS requesting Mrs Chug be met and taken to other Washington a/p (name escapes me) to fly on pre booked (by brother) flight to MIA to meet him. Subsequently confirms that all this is so. Signals me and then worries about my reaction!
Grateful response some months later was to PVR (as positively told that all my flying was now behind me). Formal Official wings its way past boss and Stn Cdr and ever upwards. Wait with trepidation, eventually told to report to P2 MOD London. Thoughts of Spanish Inquisition on way there, only to find it is yet another boss (now Gp Capt). He sees my letter and, though his remit is Wg Cdrs and above says” That’s one of my guys, I want to find out from him what this is about”. I explain situation, he says fair enough, that he wanted to make sure that I wasn’t going out under some black or other. PVR goes through.
Three stories (I could tell others but enough I hear you say), three good bosses. My point is that, as 1.3VStall and Pontius Navigator show above, this was not that unusual. Of course there were crap bosses, but they were shown up for what they were by the likes of those above. My question; is it the same today?

[Biggus]

NO!!!




Ok, if you want the long answer, generally no, very, very occasionally yes!! Many a 'boss' these days is an out and out career animal, and won't stick his neck out for his troops in case it has an adverse impact on his promotion prospects!!

[TheInquisitor]

CPR 27 'The Small Claims Track' (For claims upto £5,000)

and

CPR 66 'Crown Proceedings'

Have now had a chance to read and inwardly digest the above.

Gist of it is, there are certain Civil Proceedings Rules that do not apply if the Crown is a defendant or applicant in a civil case - in particular, rules regarding enforcement orders. It would appear that you cannot send bailiffs round to MoD to enforce a judgement, nor can you have them commited fo non-compliance.

It DOESN'T say explicitly that you CANNOT have an enforcement order made against the crown - unless I have misread. Quite how an order could be enforced without bailiffs is unclear, though.

It also DOESN'T say that you cannot take the crown to the Small Claims Court. HA, I would like to know exactly which part of the law was quoted to convince you that "the small claim court is not the legal method to proceeding when all other paths fail", and who on earth thinks this.

Also, since you cannot be made liable for the other side's costs (unless you commit 'unreasonable behaviour'), it CANNOT involve 'significant costs' for you. If MoD want to hire legal heavy-hitters to contest an order, it may well incur significant costs to THEM - and the last time I looked, it was MoD policy not to contest claims and the like where the legal costs would outweigh any benefit of not paying up.

So, HA, it seems that your friendly letter-writing MoD solicitor WAS talking utter bollox. To you, and others, I'd say ignore that erroneous (in part) letter and KEEP FIGHTING!

[Al R]

I wonder if The Telegraph has seen the MoD's position and has had it evaluated by its own counsel. Lets add corporate intimidation to the mix eh? I know its easy for us to say, but chin up and keep going Heli. Ultimately, the MoD shinyarse, paperclip counting, potplant appreciating, back watching desk johnies who aren't even capable of getting a payroll right aren't worth the collective steam off a crew's poo after 2 weeks on compo. You have right on your side - the right to be paid what they told you that you'd be paid.

Somone needs to tell CAS that loyalty is a two way street. Shame on him for allowing this sort of thing to happen on his watch and doing nothing about it. The interweb has cast a completely different light on what is required of leadership - what used to be obscured by the fog of poor comms and an inability to see the bigger picture is now beautiful in all its clarity. We need leaders who can respond to that. Leadership is a crock of sh*t if all it is is someone in an office ticking boxes. The true test of leadership is how a leader is perceived and whether the troops have faith in it.

These people don't live in the real world - they just briefly open the windows to sniff the air en route to the rarified atmosphere of their lofty offices. One of the performance indicators at Witt used to be Admin Wing churning out stats concerning the amount of people getting charged. This, it was believed, related to morale and performance. Hell - the best performing, most professional.. most bouyant sqn I ever served on, always used to have 2 or 3 gnrs locked up at any one time.

If the Oz g'ment can publically address the issue and subsequently apologise to the abos..

[Epimetheus]

Dallas,

Hear-hear to your 153 post. Recalling your post 22 on ACOS Manning in Crisis thread - another nail squarely on the head.

[Chugalug2]

Thank you Biggus for your succinct reply to my question, ie NO!!! You at least concede that there are some good bosses still, albeit very few, but no-one further sees fit to commend theirs in the way that I did mine. I know I am yet another BOF boring away about the good old days and best thus ignored, but I would remind you all that the system as I described was a two way deal, ie you gave the boss maximum support and he did the same for you. Could it be that any boss who tries to fulfil his part of the deal is reneged on by a bunch of self centred ingrates, and thus sees it as not worth the candle? Almost certainly all three bosses in my story would have been required to justify their actions to some degree or another. They did what they did because it was their responsibility to do so in their minds, the aftermath would have to be sorted out later. When I came out of the RAF into the civilian world the culture shock was profound as I was now truly on my own. Today I imagine that adjustment is scarcely noticeable as you move from one me world to another. That may reflect the modern world, which I am in but not a part of, but does not reflect the British military ethos which is far older than the RAF. We mess with it at our peril. My advice? Support your bosses to the hilt and go to them with every financial, career, family, accommodation worry that you cannot resolve, but they might. Resume the age old compact. Those that respond will be encouraged by your faith in them, those that don't will be seen by their inaction to be unfit to command. They repeat the effort on the staish, same outcomes. Slowly the broken CoC can be repaired. No power to do anything? Neither had my Changi boss or the staish, that didn't stop them and they prevailed, all it needs is "caring, genuine caring" as Al R rightly says. Its time that the caring resumed!

[Wader2]

My advice? Support your bosses to the hilt and go to them with every financial, career, family, accommodation worry that you cannot resolve, but they might. Resume the age old compact. Those that respond will be encouraged by your faith in them, those that don't will be seen by their inaction to be unfit to command.

Good theory but take time to fix, time that too many in command now do not have.

Staff are leaned, OOA, or PVRd and the load is simply pushed sideways.

"WTF are you bothering me about now?"

"Why haven't you answered my email?" ~ "Sorry for not answering your email boss but I was on leave as in the email I sent detailing all my leave for the next 12 months as you requested - pillock! - Sir."

[Chugalug2]

Thanks for the reply Wader, and the kind commendation. Not sure I follow the lack of time scenario though. What extra duties does a Sqn boss now have that prevents him attending to Personnel issues, which other than Operational ones should be his top priority anyway? If it's routine admin, stats, etc surely it can be parceled out to others (My secondary duty at Changi was Sqn Dep Adj, hence the insight into what the boss was dealing with). If it's dealing with the lack of admin support at Station level (ie no Accts/Admin accountability as stated by TheInquisitor above) then that deficit is having a direct effect on the operational capability of the RAF and should be made good as a matter of urgency. I have no doubt that the final solution to JPA, Quarters, Messing, Schooling etc problems is money, but the pressure to make the urgent reforms needed must come from below so that the dead wood Air Staff that sit on this mess are squeezed from both directions and hopefully get out of the way for someone who can do what needs doing. That the MOD is rubbish is worrying, but that the stations and squadrons are fast joining the same pungent heap is utterly alarming. Everyone serving or retired must have common cause to sort this before the RAF in particular becomes unfit for purpose!

[cornish-stormrider]

:EWell I'll be buggered!!!

What we here is some effective cheap and workable solutions to most of our woes.

IMHO these should be nailed to the face of every zob from a light fluey :E upwards. Their snec's should be made to enforce this stuff as a priority, as to keeping up with the b*llsh*t admin.......

do what they did in the old days LIE

if you all lie together they will never catch you out.

[Al R]

Making mistakes is part of being a future effective leader, we seem to have forgotten that now. I suppose someone at the top now is there because he has built up a record of either not making mistakes, or not having those mistakes detected. A young FO would have the old FS to guide him, there would be time and he would have the space to grow. That seems to have been lost, certainly when I have involvement with the military at work, locally (or more often, socially). Nowadays, and I might be wrong, but the climate doesn't allow scope for learning - its all about running at personal levels near to max capacity, learning on the job (which is fine to a degree) and not having the space and time to consolidate learning and the learning experience. There's nothing proactive about moulding our military leaders anymore, and this is due almost entirely to low manning levels, a Corporate mentality instead of a Forces mentality and workloads that are unsustainable. Outlook, philosophy and ability are being forged in far from ideal conditions, and this leads to far from ideal performance.

I accept that there are some fantastic leaders in uniform. I was watching a Flying Officer at a motorway service centre recently. The convoy was parked up and he f#cked the troops off while he looked after the wagons. A little too trendy you might think? Maybe. But he spent his time chatting with an even younger lad who was having what looked like serious difficulties with something. His deportment, his manner and his attitude shone out. He might have been an absolute c#ck in real life, but I doubt it. My bullsh#t radar is quite well tuned these days. I was never one for measuring my success by my rank (which was just as well). My current trap reading is Jeremy Paxman 'The Political Animal'. The comparisons he draws between for instance, Enoch Powell and Jeffrey Archer are interesting. One of them was compelled to lead through a clear cut certainty that something was wrong and needed to be put right, and the other simply needed something to hide behind and which made people think he was something he wasn't.

[RETDPI]

Being a simple soul I always remember the three interlocking rings for "Functional leadership"

1. Task needs
2. Team needs
3. Individual needs.

Play the balance on these according to the prevailing situation.

Was it so wrong?

[Pontius Navigator]

You need to take an holistic approach to new WoW*.









*Ways of Working

[RETDPI]

Of course! I must have missed the point!
Good job I left and went on to work for myself eh!
Saved the true Air Force leaders no end of further embarrassment.

[D-IFF_ident]

Mike, I think the most appropriate part of your quote is:

at the lowest appropriate level.

Low level? I think we've hit rock bottom!

[dallas]

Mike

Perhaps because it's written in bolleaux it's not just verbal garbage - it's practical garbage. 'We' don't mind innovation and imagination if it saves a few quid, but certainly don't nurture or encourage people to do so. As for decision-making, after much consideration I would have to say my primary reason for leaving is the manner in which decisions are made and the frustration I suffer watching us waste valuable resources inventing Wheel Mk. XVIII.

I actually quite enjoy my job, but the way we operate has forced me to leave, as opposed to having flt cdr no. 36 experiment on me with his man management skills - or increasing lack of.

[Al R]

In order to deliver the Royal Air Force Vision we must develop our speed and accuracy in analysing and delivering effects, underpinned by innovative and imaginative solutions resulting in reliable and effective decision-making at the lowest appropriate level.

I can imagine the scene on JROC at The Depot.

'Ok, Flying Officer Jones, pin your ears back and listen in son. This is whats happening. Your Flight is taking sustained fire from key terrain up there, your signaller is down, nos 3 and 4 sections need help pronto and your FS is away filling out some Health and Safety paperwork. This is your mission. You are to (with all due dilligence to the consequences of tardiness and the principles of expeditious benefit) make a cost benefit analysis and deliver an over arching solution in an lean, imaginative, passionate and innovative manner, which offers long lasting underpinning results. You are to consider the need at all time for financial prudence and thriftiness; ask yourself - at the assault, do I really need to select 'automatic'? When you've done that, you've got 4 hours to compose a powerpoint presentation highlighting the plan's key features and present the sqn cdr with a proposed budget for execution of the appreciation. You do have a budget holder qualification, don't you..?'

[Maple 01]

In order to deliver....etc

I assume in 'old money' it's "drop bombs on HM's enemies?"

or if you want a slightly more sophisticated and thought-out version

"drop lots of big f-off bombs on HM's enemies until they are all dead"

[ZOFO]

Maple 01, Ah but the signaller is down, or perhaps he was too busy trying to get through to the SPOC to get his kit up and running again:p and as I was always taught: No comms no bombs:), Ah well I suppose I could of always got my trusty Morse CCT up and running;)

[larssnowpharter]

Being a simple soul I always remember the three interlocking rings for "Functional leadership"

1. Task needs
2. Team needs
3. Individual needs.

Play the balance on these according to the prevailing situation.

Was it so wrong?

Absolutely not. John Adair who was an instructor at Sandhurst played a part in introducing the concept th the British military. He has recently published a book 'How to Grow Leaders' which takes things back to basics and includes the 3 needs describes above.

Get your boss a copy for Christmas this year.

[Top Right]

It's rather challenging to expect "imaginative and innovative" solutions with no £££ in the budget, except £££ already marked for those large projects in train that soak up all cash and prevent room for either imagination or innovation.

Unless imaginative and innovative is supposed to mean - do it as best you can at zero cost, which is what we military types manage to do in getting the job done on ops sometimes anyway.

Here's an imaginative and innovative idea - put high specification video teleconference facilities into all RAF (or Defence) installations. The Norwegians did it to good effect (large country, extremes of weather, difficult to convene meetings cheaply). Imagine the savings in travelling time and costs, including less time away from your unit/desk - your main area of production. Just one problem - needs cash. Do we still spend-to-save? Or would it be just too difficult to do the sums for a cost benefit analysis in the first place - despite the idea having just a little bit of merit worthy of consideration.

[22/7 Master]

Congratulations to the Lt Cdr who was awarded an MBE in the New Year's list for his smooth introduction of JPA into the RN.

[Chugalug2]

put high specification video teleconference facilities into all RAF (or Defence) installations

With respect Top Right, that is not what this is about. If subordinate commanders did their job as they should (IMHO) then all it needs is face to face dealing with their guys and girls who need their help. They then pile on the pressure through channels, in this case to get JPAC to do what they are meant to do, which is to ensure that Pay and Allowances are paid correctly on time every time. If every unit that has pay problems (100%?) complained through channels the pressure would be enormous and recorded. The upper echelons (er... that's you isn't it CAS?) would have to take decisive action to correct this big morale morass. It is a scandal that an individual serving officer is left to tackle the MOD on his own to recover what they owe him. For shame every boss in the food chain above him!

[Top Right]

Chugalug2,

Apols for the tangent, I was merely reacting to the management speak earlier in the thread of "imaginative and innovative" creeping into the RAF Vision, Strategy and Objectives, in a system that actually stifles such things unless created by yes-men. In no way would I wish to belittle the sterling efforts of HeliAviator and the "challenges" of JPA.

[nigegilb]

Getting back to thread, I am not surprised by the intimidation on offer from the MoD. There is absolutely nothing that the Ministry can do to stop people taking their cases to the small claims court. Remember, if you choose to go down this road, you attend at your local court and the MoD is obliged to send it's legal team/lawyer to present evidence wherever you choose to have your case heard. The thought of a mass action must be causing considerable anxiety in whitehall. Firstly because of the logistical problem of sending lawyers all over the country and secondly the cost.

Also worth remembering, that the level of evidence to secure a judgement in favour is not as great as a normal court of law.

I encourage anyone who has not been paid correctly and is not happy with the complaints process to press to test and fire that small claim into court.

Happy days.:ok:

[Chugalug2]

Chugalug2, Apols for the tangent

Top Right, no need to apologise to me, for it seems that I am just as guilty of thread drift! I admit that the thread is about the JPA problem, per se, and the answer seems to be 'sue the brassards'! Well fair enough, but it seems to me to be worth asking how did it ever get to this? The answer as with so many things on this forum is the MOD, of course. Inept, arrogant, dysfunctional, and more! That is a problem of course, and an administration that is itself less inept, arrogant, dysfunctional, and more than the present government will one day have to tackle its root and branch reform. In the meantime the real concern is the adverse effect that the MOD and its apparatchiks are having on the armed forces. The fact that the first line of defence against maladministration, the subordinate commanders who tackled P2, Accounts, Station Admin, whoever to nip problems in the bud, no longer seems to be the case is worrying and puzzling. I have asked why and am really none the wiser. The RAF, and for that matter its sister services, are not commercial companies but unique organisations even amongst other public services whereby you may be called upon to risk, and even lose, your life on behalf of your country. In return the compact is that your welfare, and in many ways your family's, are the responsibility of the RAF as expressed through the personal involvement of your subordinate commander. If that is no longer the case that is a much much greater scandal than the inept incompetence of a bunch of disinterested jobsworths in JPAC. They can, and should, be replaced by an organisation capable of doing the job. The RAF's subordinate commanders cannot. They must function or the whole shebang goes down the tube. If that is indeed where it is going then urgent attention to the powers and performance of commanders at unit, wing and station level is vital.

[AdanaKebab]

May I add an aside ....
Would anyone else agree that the new style payslips are difficult to understand.
My Nov slip showed a NET Public Debt to the tune of 900quid (owed since Jun), none of which was taken that mth. 450 was taken in December, but they have not taken the other 450 in January. Nowhere does the slip tell me when this money will be taken .... Crazy!]

Don't worry CAS we're all busy saving a years worth of salary so JPA doesn't catch us out!:ok::ugh::{

[Scribbly]

I agree. Apparently there was a vote to see whether we wanted one year's pay divided by 12 or each month paid according to how many days were in it. The annual one won, but no-one asked me.

We're all supposed to chk our pay is correct, but how will we ever know? You'd have to find your daily rate from somewhere else, multiply by 364 1/4 (or whatever it is, someone will tell me, no doubt), then do some calculations to put an extra 2% (for example) on April to Decembers, then a bit more if you've been promoted, then another bit if you've got an increment, perhaps take some off if you're on maternity pay, then divide that by how many days are left in the year and split that into the number of equal months that are left.... I have no idea any more.

I much preferred multiplying your daily rate (which was printed on the payslip) by 28/30/31 days. Easy.

I had an NPD taken off in November, quite incorrectly and still haven't got it back. Having been inspired by Heliaviator (and been to JPAC/HR etc etc) I feel a letter to my MP coming on.:*

[It's Not Working]

I feel a letter to my MP coming on

Worked a treat for me. I had a major bitch with the system (not JPA), my Station Commander was unable to help. An email to my MP and within a month a resounding success. The only grief at station level was a young SNCO had to jump through hoops collating the necessary data for a ministerial reply - box of chocolates for her and smiles all round.

[minigundiplomat]

Would anyone else agree that the new style payslips are difficult to understand.


The new payslips are very difficult to understand. Changes and variaitions to an individuals daily rate are very easily missed. Trust me!

[Chugalug2]

Worked a treat for me. I had a major bitch with the system (not JPA), my Station Commander was unable to help. An email to my MP and within a month a resounding success.

Well, I'm afraid it doesn't work a treat for me, INW. It seems to be the accepted norm now that bosses, be they Flight, Squadron, Wing, Station, whatever, Commanders are quite incapable of being helpful, let alone effective, in any recognised pastoral sense whatsoever. Now I know I come from a far off time of which most know little, and even more don't care, but am I alone in being appalled at this state of affairs? I realise that the services have changed out of all recognition since my day, what with contraction, civilianisation, centralisation, lean (I thought I'd put that in as everyone else does in such a list!) etc etc, but it seems to me that what made being a part of the RAF so special in my day has gone. It is no longer special, it is just a job. Clock on, do the biz, go home. I was wrong to say that it is not Tescos but with guns and planes, it seems that is exactly what it is! Or is it? :confused:

[MightyGem]

What you might need to know ............... removed for a few tweeks, back soon!

HA



After a recent correspondence received I must inform you that I have been informed, that the small claim court is not the legal method to proceeding when all other paths fail.......

.......So, to those considering the small claims court route, I would council against it as it would appear it is the incorrect legal process and it may well cost you money.


Hmmm...is it just me, or does nobody else think that HA's been "got at"? :ooh:

[VinRouge]

Either that, or he has been given legal counsel not to post on here whilst the case is ongoing... I hope for all of us that this is the case, its about time that head blunty who is responsible for this gets a grip.

:ugh:

[PlasticCabDriver]

Chug, while I would not disagree with you in an awful lot of cases about this:

It seems to be the accepted norm now that bosses, be they Flight, Squadron, Wing, Station, whatever, Commanders are quite incapable of being helpful

it is now, depressingly, in an increasing number of cases becoming:

"Flight, Squadron, Wing, Station, whatever, Commanders are quite unable to help."

I can bang away all day at Sqn admin, Stn admin, OC PMS, the Stn Cdr, the bloke that cleans the toilets etc etc, but when the problem is JPA, there is often genuinely little they can do. JPA will not speak to me, as I am not the individual concerned, when the individual does get through, even with me sat next to them, either "we will look at it and get back to you within 10 days, here is your reference number" or "contact your unit HR".

The ability of those commanders you mention above to actually do something about a problem has been removed. A call to OC Admin or the Chief Clerk on behalf of one of your chaps used to work wonders, but their hands are tied just as effectively.

I have just realised that I am defending the blunties. Now it's got this bad, it's time for me to join the rats.

[TMJ]

In the meantime the real concern is the adverse effect that the MOD and its apparatchiks are having on the armed forces. The fact that the first line of defence against maladministration, the subordinate commanders who tackled P2, Accounts, Station Admin, whoever to nip problems in the bud, no longer seems to be the case is worrying and puzzling.

That's not quite true; I think, as ever, this forum will hear the horror stories and not about the times when people get it right. Having commanded a large flt when JPA was being introduced I know that many people were tided over at unit level by unit advances of pay when JPA screwed up until such time as the system righted itself - OCs Accts and PSF was as helpful as they could be doing so, particularly in the instance when we only fouind out one of my lads had had his pay level and band unaccountably dropped on det to the Falklands. I know that the other flt cdrs in my (Eng) sqn were polling their subordinates through their SNCOs to find out if people were being paid properly and in chasing up the systemic problems (eg no-one had worked out exactly how to notify JPA personnel had acheived Q-OPS and should be paid as such) as well as looking after the individuals affected as best they could. And I wouldn't expect to see this shouted from the rooftops, because it is simply part of the job of a flt cdr. The amount that is acheiveable by the front line you described has been limited and the timescales to deal with underlying issues lengthened, buti t is still possible to ensure your troops aren't immediatley disadvantaged.

[nigegilb]

The MoD cannot stop anyone taking their issues to the small claims court.

Ignore them and crack on!

[TMJ]

I
We're all supposed to chk our pay is correct, but how will we ever know? You'd have to find your daily rate from somewhere else, multiply by 364 1/4 (or whatever it is, someone will tell me, no doubt), then do some calculations to put an extra 2% (for example) on April to Decembers, then a bit more if you've been promoted, then another bit if you've got an increment, perhaps take some off if you're on maternity pay, then divide that by how many days are left in the year and split that into the number of equal months that are left.... I have no idea any more.


Eh? You know what pay level you're on surely: 1 + however many annual increments you've had in rank. Look at the pay that is in force for that pay level, which is published as an annual not daily rate, and divide by 12. There's no need to calculate the post April pay; the annual salary's published and all you have to do is make sure you're looking at the right year's list. In the month in which an increment is due it's a little more complicated, but not exactly rocket science.

[Chugalug2]

PlasticCabDriver and TMJ, thank you both for explaining the situation to me, blindingly obvious to you guys, less so to us BOFs outside. It is however as I suspected, subordinate commanders no longer have the powers to carry out their necessary pastoral duties. That is very dangerous IMHO for if they can't look after you why should you bust a gut on their behalf? I'm not saying you don't, but the genii is out of the bottle methinks. Solution, squeeze it back in! Restore all the historic discipline and welfare powers to subordinate commanders. How could they ever control the likes of JPA, you ask? They couldn't, it doesn't work anyway, scrap it and make its successor part of the RAF's CoC (likewise with the other services). But it will cost more! Yes, so does having separate services, but until you all become UKDFs and wear purple uniforms (God forbid) essential services like Pay must be subordinate to Service Commanders. TMJ, your inspiring tale of Station Commanders having their people pull out all the stops to ameliorate the JPA factor merely shows the desire to do their job, ie to command. They MUST be able to do so, and as a matter of routine. Restore their powers!
I am clear in my mind that the above is the strategy to follow if the RAF is to survive, meanwhile the tactics of dealing with JPA? Sue the brassards! As NigeGilb says crack on!

[It's Not Working]

Chug

PCD answered more succinctly (and far quicker) than I could. I certainly was not defending the system simply offering a word of encouragement to Scribbly that when all else fails your MP can help (just make sure you are in the right). I defer completely to PCD's answer with the exception it is not just JPA that is broken (was it ever thus?) but many things that we both knew and loved, in decades long past, no longer work or even exist. There is still fun to be had but it's just a lot harder to find.

[Chugalug2]

INW, absolutely and point taken. I am very aware of two things above all else: it is a different RAF manned by different people in different times, and this RAF is engaged in a bloody war or two. So if people tell the likes of me to wind our necks in, I for one probably will. However I also feel that the changes that have happened since my time have been gradual and insidious. It is only those, like me, who left so long ago that are able to see the glaring contrast with the scene today. Where that change has been seemingly detrimental to the RAF, witness JPA in particular and the loss of powers of subordinate commanders in general, I feel compelled like the little boy gazing on a naked emperor to at least point it out. Many problems are down to sheer scale, too much being tasked of too little, but the theme of this thread points up dysfunctional systems that should be reversed engineered back to what worked because they don't. I don't give a damn about the MOD or its hideous offspring like JPA. I do care passionately about the RAF. I'm damned if it is to be broken while I'm around by a bunch of inept meddlers, be they uniformed or civvies!

[Al R]

It'd be easy to suggest that things always get worse as we get older, but don't stories like that only reinforce the feeling of ever declining standards, and not only recently declining standards? Lets face it. If you start off with something that is only as good as you know (for instance, in 1976), and things get worse, it doesn't automatically imply that things in 1976 were brilliant. You just didn't know any different, and that was your defining benchmark.

I agree about your points though.

[Chugalug2]

TOFO, your Cornish experience is one that we have all shared in our time in one form or another. That is why I can now see myself as the BOF that your old FS Air Eng was to you c1976. But I am not haranguing you about the state of the RAF today in general, of course it is different, something would be wrong if it wasn't! My concern is the subject of this thread, JPA, and its effect on morale and efficiency. In addition the realisation gained from this thread that the very people who should pick up on JPA's shortcomings to find solutions, ie subordinate commanders, are now powerless to do so is frankly alarming. I have not simply damned the present, I have tried to make constructive suggestions to correct what I see as a fundamental contradiction in the modern RAF CoC. You may disagree, you may edge surreptitiously towards your escape route, I may be talking depressing bilge, or just maybe the depressing bilge is:

a bunch of inept meddlers, be they uniformed or civvies!

[Disgrunt1ed]

HA,

Is there a reason why we can't PM or email you anymore. I would be very interested in the pack you are putting together.

[Wader2]

Just a comment about 'how things could be worse, he cheered up and sure enough, things got worse.'

Long before 1976, on a day that can easily be googled, I met a retired sqn ldr (36) who gave me a word of advice - resign.

A year later, on my first day on my first operational station a copilot on another sqn gave me the same advice.

This is the same advice still being trundled out here but we still have lots of people clamouring to join. The system, or what they hope is the system, is clearly still attractive to new recruits although increasingly less so looking at current manning figures.

[Sempre 206]

Folks

Looking for a little info.
Could anyone who has retired since the intro of JPA please PM me with an idea of how long after your retirement date the Pension Lump Sum reached your bank account.

Thanks
S206

[OCDave]

Having just joined the forum I thought I would give my two cents on JPA. I recently joined the UAS and the 4 or 5 paychecks from JPA I have recieved have been without problems. I am aware of all the problems about JPa but it has worked fine for me, even travel expenses. This is in no way down to me, I thank the admin girls in the sqn that have to deal with it day by day!:}
Dave

[Pontius Navigator]

I thank the admin girls in the sqn that have to deal with it day by day!:}

I think that is the answer. I got my password and log on the other day. Great, all I need now is a computer to log on. And no, I am not pushing.

[OCDave]

I wasn't implying that the admin girls at the squadron run JPA, was merely commenting that it has not gone wrong for myself or anyone else on the squadron. Apologies if I have pissed you off mate! I will try and widen the blinkers. Oh, and the pay doesn't go to the student union bar, it goes to the bar on the sqn!:p

[moggi]

The RAF owes me £11,400 (before tax) - and I've been waiting 5 months. What's the record out there? Who is owed most and how long have you been waiting?

Mine stems from my signing a PC back at the end of 2005, at which point I should have gone from Middle to Top Rate flying pay. Needless to say that the RAF didn't pick up on it. I only realized that my pay should have gone up on reading through the Regs for something else.

It's been said before, JPA is not fit for service, it's a disgrace and will be one of the reasons I will be leaving at my Immediate Pension Point. No civilian organization would ever owe you that kind of money and then be so indifferent about paying it back.

So come on - am I the holder of this sad and sorry record?


Ps. Our friend HA has most definitely been "got at". Disgraceful hush-up.

[Lurking123]

Folks

Looking for a little info.
Could anyone who has retired since the intro of JPA please PM me with an idea of how long after your retirement date the Pension Lump Sum reached your bank account.

Thanks
S206

I would also like an answer to that question. My mortgage lender doesn't quite understand JPA!

[L J R]

HD, if you are still able to look at this thread, get another e-mail address and re-register at PPrune under a different name, and 'carefully' explain some things. We would like to know.

[woodring]

I like to think I can accept that change will always happen be it for better or worse. During my service there were always those who moaned that the RAF was going to the dogs etc. But I cannot recall anyone ever complaining that their pay and allowances had not been paid on time ,or was incorrect.
That you should receive these on time and in full is a basic right that any employee in any industry should expect. The fact that under JPA you seem to be unable to obtain this right or at least to rectify mistakes swiftly is a damning endorsment of todays Air Officers. If you cannot at least ensure that your personnel are paid correctly you cannot be up to the job.

[ATCO Fred]

Reply for Lurking123

Point 1 - although I had cleared 5 months earlier the relevant dept/desk at PMA had not actioned my 'termination' so when i enquired about lack of lump some the reply was 'but you are still in!'

Quick phone call to relevant PMA dept and I was terminated on the spot - lump sum arrived 2 weeks later!

Point 2 - Pension payments timely. You only get statements when the payments change.

Positive:

Resettlement claim was easy to make and monies arrived (circa 2.5 grand) within 3 days. Plus, due to point 3 below - was never audited!

Negative aspects:

1 No P45 received and JPAC refuse to send another as they are not obliged to - apparently.

2 A succession of letters without postage - when collected (paying the postage and £1 for the privilege) they are pay statements (yes after I have left) for exactly £0. I've now stopped collecting them.

3 Not being able to 'load' a non service address into JPA for correspondence after termination. It either comes through your old work place or some department in the Southampton post code area that don't put farking stamps on them! See note 2 above!

4 Unfortunately my retirement coincided with (within 3 months ) JPA roll-out and I fell through so many nets it was unbelievable. Friends who left sometime afterwards were much better catered for.

Over a year later - grass is a different shade of green that is so much softer to walk on! And rather worryingly, after 20 years service not a single (no not one) twinge of regret or remorse.

[Pontius Navigator]

I like to think I can accept that change will always happen be it for better or worse. During my service there were always those who moaned that the RAF was going to the dogs etc. But I cannot recall anyone ever complaining that their pay and allowances had not been paid on time ,or was incorrect.

Ah, but remember in the good old days you got a small pay packet in February that had to see you through March. In April the nex tax rates kicked in so you probably got short pay in April or, if lucky, a small increase. Then about May the pay rise was announced. In July you might get it with 4 months back pay. Only in August did you get a month's pay that was anywhere near normal.

Shortchanged no, but a regular amount, hardly. :)

[Lurking123]

AF, thanks. Up our way again soon? If so, drop me a line.

[MOSTAFA]

I am no longer serving and have read the posts on JPA with only passing interest, mainly because Mrs M just happens to be one of those there auditors for the system.

She thinks it sucks :bored: Surely it cannot really be that bad

Today my son showed me his latest "JPA Assignment Order" (Posting Order to us oldies) and guess what - He is posted, sorry assigned, to a unit that ceased to exist 12 months ago. I guess she is right.

[klubman]

Sempre 206

Hopefully this will give you some reassurance. My last official day in the mob was 14 Dec 07. I had been told that the lump sum would arrive 10 days later. Christmas Eve? I think not! However, on New Years Eve the full amount turned in my account, no worries. And, as promised, my pension pitches in on the 10th of each month.

I must be one of the few that didn't get f:mad:d about by JPA!

klubman

[LFFC]

Here's an interesting article in the Times business section:

IT forces change on Whitehall (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article3558593.ece)

Ministers have often used new technology - courtesy of EDS - as a none-too-subtle blind for deeper changes: new policy, for example, or a shake-up of the civil service.


He cites the joint personnel administration scheme, which unifies the pay offices of the army, navy and air force, in some cases breaking service traditions that have built up over centuries. It is a mammoth IT task, Thomas said, but one that had much broader goals.

“It happens to be the world’s largest Oracle human-resources system, and producing it is quite tricky in IT terms. But when you get up close, you see that it’s all about enabling the MoD to harmonise personnel management and pay between the three forces.

“It will save about £100m a year, and that can buy a lot of frontline kit. But breaking into the shared values in the army, navy and air force is a very emotional thing to do.”

“In really good government programmes, there is [a clear link] between the design of the policy and the implementation of it. On bad projects, people will come with a plan with no thought to implementation.”

:ugh:

[klubman]

Personally (and fortunately) I had no personal issues with JPA. I guess I was lucky.
However, in my previous life at 'Sleaford Tech' the trainee NCA under my command had a whole host of problems, and JPA was the bane of my life as I attempted to get them paid properly (or just paid, in some cases). The staff in SHQ were very helpful but had no access rights to the system to correct errors, etc. I eventually resorted to writing personally to AMP, and hand delivered the letter at the CASWO conference. :ugh:
Only then was the main error identified. It transpired that when the youngsters were 'plugged in' to JPA someone had ommitted to tick the box marked 'Trainee Aircrew'. Once corrected things improved slightly, but there were still enormous problems getting back pay sorted, etc.

I really hope they get their ducks in a row, 'cos it was causing major morale issues for the NCA trainees. P:mad:ing off new recruits is not a great retention or recruiting tool! :rolleyes:

[SirToppamHat]

My goodness things have changed:

Ping off new recruits is not a great retention or recruiting tool!

I don't know about recruiting or retention, but I thought it was a fundamental part of initial training!? ;)

STH

[HEDP]

I have just been hit with a problem that has simply got nothing to do with JPA and is a HR input error.

The issue I have is with the new JPA pay statements that make it particularly difficult to understand your pay and in this case inadvertantly concealed thecore issue.

Why can they not be easily understandable? How can you have a plus and a minus debit and a plus and a minus credit all in the same columns!

FFS make it understandable

HEDP

[neilmac]

Working shifts and work loads of weekends but cant get any work done on JPA since it tends to be unavailable!! Working Easter and of course it is unavailable/offline all over the holiday period!! GRRRRR

NM

[unclenelli]

I'm guessing you're working the entire Easter grant?

I've got bad news for you if you're wanting to do any JPA work.

Assuming your section allows your 4 days off after your shift cycle, by the time you come back to work next weekend - JPA will be down for just over a FORTNIGHT!!!!

Apparently it'll take that long to carry over everyone's leave, and increase our pay.

Strange thing is, it never used to take 2 weeks when we had a system that actually worked!!!!

Will the system ever catch up??
As of 1 Apr, you can claim back food money for periods over 24hrs including weekends (formerly 48, but not weekends), but any you want to claim for 1-14th April will have to be done on paper as the system cannot back date anything!!! (I'm still waiting on a refund of accomodation overcharges from Jan-May 07!!!)

[LFFC]

Last night the Treasury cited a defence ministry saving of £45m a year simply by creating a single personnel management system for all three services - nearly 50 years after the army, navy and air force were ostensibly brought under one roof.

Oh what a giveaway!!

Treasury aims for more savings in new public sector costs review (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/may/12/alistairdarling.taxandspending)

The Guardian 12 May 08 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/may/12/alistairdarling.taxandspending)

[Winch-control]

Interesting, so most of the savings are probably from the interest saved from non payments to entitled personnell. ! :confused:
On another (pay front) having left last year the paymaster payment has just arrived and shows 13GBP (no not huge) less than the month before. On requesting why, was informed it was due to the change in the 10p Tax! How rude is that;:ugh: you do your time and the Labor governmet still screw you when you leave! Aah well, pool 24deg can't complain......:D