CTC cadet vs. OAT/Netjets

[saintexupery]

I recently got into both the CTC scheme and the OAT Netjets one. This is a choice between two good things but I wanted to hear your thoughts nonetheless on pros/cons and what you would consider for choosing.

I was impressed by both schools and I do like very much both types of flying (scheduled vs. unscheduled).

Pick your favorite

Thx!

[pt_flyer]

I think Netjets pay is higher compared to the CTC airlines (not sure about it). However, don't forget what a/c you will be flying for both. You prefer flying a A320 or citation bravo?

[redsnail]

What do you want to do?

Both have their pros and cons.

I currently work for Netjets Europe so naturally I am biased. :D
My husband works for easyJet and is envious of the flying I do. :E

[saintexupery]

I do have a favorite one but I would not reveal it yet ;)

CTC seems to have a better financial deal overall for the training (slightly lower course cost, unsecured loan, guaranteed by CTC up to 30k).

NetJets seems also not to be as favorable tax-wise unless you are based in the UK....as a F/O I understand you would be paying up to 36% taxes and contributions, higher than what you would normally pay in that income bracket (pt_flyer do you have better info on that?)

NetJets has a nice basing policy and very nice variety of flying and destinations

I may want to fly big airliners at some point in my career....:D

If I am wrong on anything, or missed anything, go ahead and shoot

thx all for your input

[MikeAlphaTangoTango]

Not knowing the intricacies of the OAT/NJ scheme, at first glance it looks to me like your bet is safer at CTC - if in 12-18 months time if (when?) the much talked about recession hits and NJ don't need as many pilots as they thought (eg Tfly and FTE), will OAT do anything to help you find employment with an alternative airline? And if bizjets are your thing, there's nothing to stop you doing that out of CTC, who's to say they won't have a bizjet partner airline by then? Keep your options open, I reckon just about the only thing you can be sure of in aviation is that it will all be different in 18 months.

[Adios]

In today's economic climate, you should give some thought to which route might be more likely to lead to the intended FO position if recession hits in the next few years. Who is more likely to fly less in hard times, Holiday makers or multi-millionaires?

Perhaps Redsnail can offer a bit of info on whether the NetJets owner is locked in with a long term contract or not and what that means in a downturn.

[saintexupery]

yes, you guys are right the economy is a very relevant variable

my gut feeling on it is that scheduled and charter airlines would be hit the hardest by a downturn

netjets, as i understand it, runs either 2 or 5 year contracts with its clients paid upfront...may be off on this though

let me throw in one more piece of discussion...i just spoke to an airline captain who said I will feel like flying bigger airliners one day if i first went the biz jet route....he had a strong pick for CTC

[Polorutz]

There is an advantage that nobody has mentioned yet, CTC has placed every cadet (that has passed the course) with an airline, however, you do not enter the course sponsored by any airline, in contrast OAT are placing you under Netjets from day one, so provided you pass the course you are guaranteed a job.

I am currently in New Zealand with CTC and I am fairly optimistic about my future but having an airline behind my back from day one would make me feel a bit better (and scared, under pressure, etc...)

[redsnail]

The CTC course is very thorough and the cadets do stand a very good chance of being employed.

During this 6 month line training and experience period you will be paid a subsistence allowance from CTC of about £1000p.m. It will only be on completion of that period, when you have proved to the airline that you are "the right stuff" and that you have reached all the proficiency levels required, that you may be offered full time employme

From the CTC Wings (http://www.ctcwings.co.uk/faq/index.asp).

It is worth thoroughly researching both schemes. If you get a job with eg easyJet you'll certainly do a lot more hours than someone with Netjets. However, a Netjets cadet doesn't have the 6 months on £1000/per month deal and then maybe a contract of employment.

At the moment, the CTC cadets have been employed full time post training which is great for them. However, as other posters have acknowledged, the economy is slowing down a bit and this may affect future hirings.

Some info on Netjets Europe.
Profits and aircraft order. (http://jets.ru/monitoring/2008/01/16/netjets)

[saintexupery]

wow, it took me a while to get back here w/ the server busy

anyway, thx folks for all the input, it's all very relevant information

my take on CTC is that, while they do not formally have an employment contract at the end, they still provide you with an unsecured loan (OAT does not) and they underwrite a good part of it.....to me that signifies the security w/ CTC is still as high as you can get in the industry

let me give one more spin to CTC vs. OAT. There is a chance i may be interested in moving to the US at some point down the road...would NJ make it for a smoother transition? I mean does it happen that NJ europe pilots go work for NJ USA?

[hollingworthp]

Probably no help as you would still need an FAA license.

[Yahweh]

You have to ask yourself one question. Which would you prefer to drive,
sports car or bus? Simple as.

[TACHO]

Sports car or a bus???:confused:

utter tosh.

[BusinessMan]

IMHO you have a decision here that needs to be made on the basis of what lifestyle will best suit, with possibly some consideration of future needs/plans overlaid.

NJE will see you doing different work to that of a CTC airline (unless of course NJE get into bed with them too :)). I'm not saying either is better or worse - just that you need to be very clear which lifestyle will suit you best, because they are very different. Suggest looking at some of the many NJE threads in the Bizjet section

At the end of the day you are in a very privileged position :ok:, loser like me only had the one offer!;)

[SpamFritters]

I can only say what i have heard from pilots who fly with CTC FOs.
They go on a placemebt with the airline for 6 months where (apparently) they do not receive pay.
At the end of the 6months they do not have a guaranteed job with the airline..

Again only what I heard for a skipper who looked into it for me. :cool:

[poss]

With Netjets I think as long as you do really well and excel at everything you are actually garanteed a job as they are looking to recruit a lot of pilots between now and 2012 (I think is the year). You do have to bare in mind that that is a secured loan whereas CTC isn't.

[Adios]

SaintExupery,

You list your location as US and if that's true, you might not be eligible for either loan, as HSBC usually requires 3 years UK residency. I am not sure if that rule applies with CTC. Before you put financing on the list of pros vs. cons for either FTO, I would suggest seeing if you qualify for both loans.

If you qualify for the CTC loan and can't swing the OAT one, then the decision is already made for you unless you have other financing options. There are other banks that do such loans, so perhaps financing options should not be so critical in the decision process.

Which company did not lay off pilots after 9/11? I would say that's the one least likely to lay any off if there is another recession and for a hint, their airplanes aren't orange.

I think the best quality decision you can make though would be to pick the lifestyle you like the best, as that's what you have to stick with after the loan is done and dusted.

[pt_flyer]

If you don't qualify for the loans you can get your own loan in the US. It is a lot easier to get a loan in the US then in Europe.

Saint - check this
http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/operatorlist.php?reg=Europe
It shows you a pretty good picture of the airlines probable to employ you and NJE.

:ok:

[Yahweh]

"Sports car or a bus???

utter tosh."

Let me guess.... you drive a bus :E

[TACHO]

Let me guess.... you drive a bus :E

Well if by 'a bus' you mean 80,000 kg of aeroplane then yes....but hey look on the bright side. My morning coffee is quite often delivered by a young beautiful laydee.... instead of being poured from a thermos flask which resides next to my squashed ham sandwich. Swings and roundabouts :E.. ...you won't catch me loading the pax bags.

ta ra!

T;)

[Yahweh]

We also won't catch you higher than 40,000ft doing 500kts plus :ok:

[TACHO]

We also won't catch you higher than 40,000ft doing 500kts plus

haha, when I am already flying at six miles up I couldnt really care about another 2000ft or another 20 kts? take it you fly the 'sports cars' then? Good luck to you sir!

In all honesty have never flown a biz jet, but from personal experience thoroughly enjoy flying the 'bus'. Fairly easy working life tbh, plenty of days off (especially with my airline), sby flights to pretty much anywhere in europe and a fair bit of stability too.:D.
To come back to the original posters question the CTC scheme is a pretty sweet deal. Loan is normally unsecured which means you dont have to gamble mummy and daddy's house on passing your training and securing a job. I believe someone has already mentioned that everyone who has passed the course so far has been offered a position with an airline, not bad going that. The thing to bear in mind is that the selection criteria for CTC is exceptionally high and there are people who would sell thier granny to be in your position, provided you pass the training its a pretty good step up onto the ladder. Good luck to you whichever you choose.

Tacho...out! :ok:

[saintexupery]

Thanks guys,

I do appreciate the fact that I am in a very fortunate position. Still, since it is a choice, I am gathering all the needed info.

One thing I have not been able to figure out is time to command given the current fleet expansion at NJE and at some CTC partner airlines, notably EZY - sorry if there is info on that and I missed it.

I understand as a cadet you are currently looking at 6 to 9 years after start of employment to upgrade at NJE and probably 5 to 7 at EZY, right? If so, will this change with the expanding fleet at both companies? There was a thread for NJE started on this by a military guy but there did not seem to be much of a consensus there on his prospects. So maybe for a cadet it is an easier prediction.

Also, do I understand correctly NJE has no staff travel?

I agree with everyone who said it is a choice about lifestyle and type of flying. But frankly I would like both of them very much, so the peripheral stuff may really be the deal breaker here.

[BusinessMan]

I'm sure RedSnail (or others) can correct me if I'm remembering wrong ... but I think we were told that there is no staff/family travel at NJE as the idea of an owner sharing the cabin with someone else wasn't deemed likely (not very surprisingly...;))

However, we were definitely told that they try to be flexible in that if you wanted to end your duty period at a different 'gateway' to usual, eg so that you could meet your family who've flown in separately to holiday there, then that would be fine. Hence you can benefit, but not in the conventional manner, so to speak :)

Appreciate your point about "...would like them both very much" but I'd still suggest that really digging into the lifestyles would be a good idea as they are very different; are you sure you're not just saying that you'd like both very much, compared to not flying professionally (ie current position)? Or do you really mean that you feel eqally about both compared to each other? Apologies if that sounds a bit patronising - I'm just explaining my own process when comparing the two roles last year:ok:

By the way - I for one will be curious to hear which way you do decide so when you've decided do please post it eh:p Cheers, BM

[saintexupery]

Hi Businessman,

no worries that is actually a good question. What I mean is your second interpretation, ie I like them very much and equally.

To be very precise I prefer the NJ type of flying and the variety of routes, but I would prefer a bigger plane (a bus ;)) over a smaller one.

I will certainly post my decision and how I came to it. Still glad to hear about the t 2 command issue if anyone has comments. It is not totally clear to me whether companies manage to match recruiting and fleet expansion when they occur and the effect on getting a left seat

[BusinessMan]

Hi SE (good name by the way:cool:), no worries.

However I'd still (...respectfully...) suggest taking a brief moment to consider the comparative lifestyles themselves, not just the plane or the flying as those are different things to what I'm driving at. One for you to think about, or not, I'll shut up on that one now :p

I also will be interested to hear about time to command expectations with NJE - during my OAT interview they seemed very surprised when I said that in 5 years I hoped to be in the LH seat. I'd based that on the hours necessary from NJE's own website and some inference from that. Maybe they were so shocked at OAT because one of my interviewers was a BA FO and the thought of anyone moving that fast in BA from starting blocks would be much less likely ;).

Was I way out? What is realistic? Very interested to hear from anyone with NJE... RedSnail can you enlighten us?

Cheers, BM

[redsnail]

I'm on hols at the moment enjoying the awesome powder in Vail. That's a bloody good lifestyle :D

Staff travel. No, none. You do accumulate miles on airlines if that's a goal. You can have temporary gateways. Eg, you have a party in Rome, make that a temporary change so you'll be flown there at the end of your tour and you can start there. You can also change gateways as needs change. We have guys who spend winter in the Swiss Alps and thus use Geneva and Summer in Malaga. People have also used their travel to the US as a launch for holidays too. Occassionally, you can hitch a lift home on a positioning NJE flight. That's very nice. :D

In comparison to easyJet's staff travel. We've found that more often than not, it's easier and cheaper to book through the normal channels given enough notice. It's only short notice flights where it's a benefit.

Time to command. 2,500 hours absolute min, 3,000 hours usually. Plan on 400 hours a year. If you do better, you're laughing. :ok: This is where easyJet has an advantage. (Other airlines on the CTC scheme may not do as many hours)

Lifestyle's important to me. I am not chasing hours. I work approx 30 to 50 days less than my husband in easyJet. Difference in pay? About £6,000 or so. (he earns more).

There's talk about "big jets". I am not interested in "big jets" as they can't do what I can do in my Hawker. Besides, the avionics suite is more advanced than most "big jets" any way. If I want to go bigger.. there's the Falcon 7X or a G550. Tough choice. :D Personally, I think I'd prefer the Hawker 4000 or maybe the Falcon 2000 EASy. Go and check out the flight decks on those aircraft.

However, I understand that the "big jet" desire is real. We've had a few guys return to NJE after leaving to fly a "big jet". Big as in 744. Others, 737 etc. They got bored and have returned.

The 2 jobs are different.

[BusinessMan]

Thanks Redsnail, I see I was out in my assumption about the number of flying hours pa then. Have a good holiday. Cheers, BM

[saintexupery]

alright, I got a few request to post my choice and as promised here it is (incidentally sorry for the wait, after I made a decision I got caught up in the start of training and various errands)

First of all both programs are very strong, both in terms of the quality of training you get and the professional avenues that they open up for you, so you can't go wrong. In my choice I considered primarily two factors that mattered the most to me, one being the type of financing scheme and the other one being time to command with the prospective employers. Based on that I chose CTC.

As of now CTC provides a fully unsecured loan, while OAT requires about 50k pounds in secured loans. That was a knock out in favor of CTC. Re: t2c with NJE you are looking at a minimum of 8 years to the left seat (400h/y to build 3000h), while with the so far largest partner of CTC (Easyjet) you are looking at possibly 6/7 years, so on that one CTC also won (though slightly, and other CTC partner airlines have much longer t2c t).

There was another factor that I kept in some consideration (mentioned by several of you), which was how robust the prospective employers were in terms of their business. To that regard I believe NJE has an advantage, as it seems to have a market both when the economy goes bad - companies sell their corporate jets and send their managers to fly with NJE - and of course when the economy looks bright - more millionaires to be flown around.

There were several other issues that were mentioned and that I believe one should consider (big vs. small jets, lifestyle, etc.), but to me they all played out equally in terms of my choice. So in the end I decided based on the things that really made a difference between the two schools, and those are the three (mainly the first two) factors mentioned above.

Hope this will help others make a good decision if needed.

Happy flying,

;)

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

Maybe you should think about who is a better bet in a struggling and uncertain market. Both CTC and OATS don't guarantee jobs at the end.....so think employment. Most of the CTC partner airlines are struggling right now and as far as NJE goes, who knows what will happen. Plenty of theses schemes have dumped cadets when the going's got tough. BA, Mytravel, Air Lingus, Thomsonfly etc. Pick what you think is the safest bet.

[Bambe]

Both CTC and OATS don't guarantee jobs at the end....

Go back on OAA website... you're simply wrong. Each Netjet cadet who complete the course to the Netjet standards will be offered a position on a type rating course....

Both of this scheme are brilliant. CTC has just launched a Cityjet wing cadet scheme :
CityJet Wings (http://www.ctcwings.co.uk/cityjetwings/index.asp)

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

Well Bambie, in that case I stand corrected and take you at your word. If I was starting again, no question about it, I'd take the NJE scheme. CityJet? A crap paying airline operating out of bases with the highest living costs around and a long time to command. They are not at the level of other airlines CTC are hooked up with. It would take a long time to pay back the money you owe to the bank on CityJet pay. Of course, this all assumes you're good enough to have the option of which scheme to do. Beggars can't be choosers.

[Morgo]

with regards to NJE captaincy, at the Flyer show in April I was able to ask the question to NJE about the time to the left seat for OAA cadets - the lady from NJE said they are considering lowering the requirement to 2000 hrs specifically for NJE cadets, hence making it possible to get to the left seat in between 3-4 years for those on the scheme

[Potential]

Go back on OAA website... you're simply wrong. Each Netjet cadet who complete the course to the Netjet standards will be offered a position on a type rating course....

I'm a NetJets cadet and I can tell you that this is not quite correct. Though we are almost guaranteed a job, there is a small clause in the contract that allows them to drop us, even if we meet all the training requirements.

[Bambe]

Apologise so! I haven't read the contract but as specified on OAA web site it looked like the position was guaranted upon completion of the training.
Is this clause about a holding pool?

Sorry Fair weather flyer:oh::bored::)

Bambe

[Colomiers]

Let me guess.... you drive a bus

I guess you must drive a sports car, which I assume means a Tornado, or maybe a Typhoon. Lucky you!!

Unless of course you mean a bizjet, which would be more accurately described as a 'minibus', or maybe a 'blackcab'. ;)

Seriously though, netjets does sound like an interesting option, particularly the gateways bit. Anyone know what conventional airlines think of light bizjet (citation bravo, etc.) experience? I believe BA for example require hours on an aircraft with an MTOW of 10000kg or more. Do many airlines have similar requirements and if so, do many of the netjet fleets meet those requirements? obviously only relevant if that's something that may interest you down the line.

[hollingworthp]

There is no hold pool as a NJE cadet - simply an employment contract which is conditional on satisfactory completion of the training course which is a fairly open clause enabling NJE to not take someone on if they are struggling with exams / check rides / general application etc.

[Adios]

The cadets will get about 225 hours at OAA and I bet a few of them have previous flight hours.

Probably one for Redsnail, but as for time to command, do NetJets care what the time is in?

[gkyip]

I thought I would add my 2 cents worth to this thread. Its a pretty tough decision you have. I have gone through the CTC selection and am glad to say will be heading out to NZ in september. Beforehand though I also applied for Netjets but decided to go for CTC as ultimately I would like to be flying large jets and CTC offers a nice route in. Selection was fun (especially the sim!) for CTC and providing you get through I think you will be impressed with CTC. As far as Netjets/OAA selection, I'm not sure as I didn't go through with it but it sounds very similar other than instead of a sim check, you get a nice trip to Lisbon (all expenses paid) for an equally intense interview. (I've always wondered whether you get flown there on one of their bizjets?:confused:)

You've many factors to take into account, start with the training. CTC are geared towards getting you an airline job therefore all training is airline focussed from their selection process to the way they schedule aircraft for training. The airlines that you will most likely be flying for are very similar and CTC specialise in training for that type of flying. OAA aren't as focussed to airline operations and you will receive a 'generic' training programme, i.e. a programme that is designed to fit all sorts of airlines from BA to small charter airlines. So ask yourself what you would like to do ultimately. Also take into account where you would prefer to train. I know it is a short term view but remember you will be spending a minimum of 14 months out in either Phoenix or Hamilton.

Secondly, the job for Netjets is a lot more interesting and fun. You will be flying state of the art business jets into both large european hubs and small challenging airports. You will be carrying the elite businessmen of europe rather than a rowdy bunch of package holiday makers!:} Once again, it is your preference as to what you would like to be doing.

As for job security, no FTO can 'guarantee' you a job but whichever one of the two you go for, your job security will be pretty high (touch wood) as Netjets will have preselected you and CTC have placed every student with a partner airline. Also, the airlines you will be working for if you choose CTC are probably going to be easyJet or BA and along with Netjets have all placed large orders for aircraft and are stable businesses that will stand an extremely high chance of riding out a recession.

Obviously I'm biased as I chose CTC in the end. Good luck in your decision whatever it is and I may see you out in NZ!:cool:

Gary

[hollingworthp]

Unfortunately, you have to make do with TAP rather than a Hawker when you go to Lisbon ;)

Also - as a minor point - you only spend 5 months in Phoenix with OAA (fortunately as it is over 42 degrees most days here) and the rest in not-so-sunny Kidlington. In that respect, FTE and CTC beat OAA for location ;)

[gkyip]

Ah ok thanks for the info hollingworthp. I take it your in the middle of the Phoenix bit? How was the selection and what's your training like? I reckon it would be better if Netjets did a similar selection process to CTC's simulator in that they should take you in one of their Hawkers and you each get to do a bit of general handling on your way to Lisbon!:p I'd be interested to know what percent of people who apply for Netjets get a place. For CTC it's around 4% I believe.

Oh and one further thing to add is that another influence for me was the fact that it looked like most of my university coursemates were applying for CTC and indeed have succeeded in selection so I will be around familiar faces throughout.

[hollingworthp]

Yep - it is 1520 and 40 degrees (it will get hotter yet today!). Did 2 duals and a backseat earlier (Holds & Approaches). Due back to Oxford in 6 weeks or so.

If I recall correctly, 5% of the applicants were successful on the scheme.

We do get several 'field trips' during our training (London City Airport and Flight Safety) and it is possible to arrange to fly in the back of a company jet if one is doing a suitable ferry flight (once you are on the course that is). A real benefit in my eyes is the close contact we have with NJE throughout - with the programme manager visiting the cadets once a week. We are definitely made to feel 'part of the NJE family' which is nice as the other schemes at OAA don't seem to get that (I may be wrong though).

There are quite a few University coursemates on our scheme - Loughborough graduates seem to be popular but I don't recall the other Uni's.

Do you get weather problems over in NZ? This is obviously supposed to be a fair-weather base but wind (and temperature) are quite problematic for the solos and we stop flying at 46 degrees (was 43 up until last week but the limit was raised .... probably by someone who did not have to sit in a warrior at that temperature ;)

[gkyip]

I don't start until September so I don't know about the weather but I've heard that Hamilton gets a lot of dense fog sometimes which can be interesting.

I'm from Leeds university and have a degree in Aviation technology which is pretty good if you want to be a pilot.

Gary

[flightless_bird]

Just recently the weather in Hamilton has been pretty bad and there has been much less flying going on (or so I hear). But apparently part of the reason for doing the training out there is to improve cadets' decision making skills (with regards to diverting - or even whether to go in the first place).

[marcuzzofly]

Hi gkyip,

I've seen you got through ctc...well first of all well done mate!!!!

Then i've got just a quick question for you.....whot it is like the interview?

I'll have phase 2 shortly and as you know if I'll pass the pilapt I'll have the interview....I don't know what to expect, a very technique interview or what!!!! Unfortunately I don't have any flying experience which might help me...
I was gonna buy a book a guy told me here on pprune but by the time they deliver it to me it will be too late for phase 3....

Any clue?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers mate

[Bambe]

Hi marcuzzofly,

The interview, when I took it was a mix of tchnical question and some about your past experience.

Regarding the technical question, expect something like "Tell us how to stop an aircraft after landing?, What are the flaps used for?, Thomas Cook fleet?, Why does an aircraft fly?... It's not that hard as you're not supposed to have any flying experience, it's simply to know if you've made some research that show your interest for the job.

But the biggest part will be about YOU...

You will probably be interviewed by both a Captain and someone from HR. This one will ask you some question such as "Tell us about a time you've led a team, Tell us about a time you disagreed with someone and what was the outcome?, Why do you want to be a pilot?, What is a pilot's typical day?...
Don't forget that they don't want to hear about what you would have done in that situation but they need to hear an example from your past (job, college, hobbies...).

Good luck, think about your real motivations, be enthousiastic, try to relax. They will do everything to make you feel at your ease.
I personnaly was very stressed and finally enjoyed the entire interview.

[marcuzzofly]

Hi Bambe,

Thanks for it.
I started to do some research about it and to be honest I feel more confident if I'll get there....:)
So now is just a matter of time...

Let me ask you something...are you training with CTC now or already done it thus flying with one of their partners?

Cheers

Ciao

[The African Dude]

More about the wx in Hamilton - a lot of the time we get cloud about 2-3000' upwards, so given the high terrain to the south can make for some good decision-making practice. Also, in the later stages of the course we are operating near the legal VFR minima so in respect of routing and hazard avoidance techniques it's good fun. Equally enjoyable are the days of blue skies and smooth Controlled VFR up in Christchurch airspace at 6500'! It's a good mixed bag, but the exposure to rainy, foggy, cloudy conditions has been great. The fog is worst in winter but there is the occasional summer morning where we all get canned...

Wind is not normally such a problem one you've done your crosswind circuits - Hamilton's runway is orientated North/South with a prevailing Westerly wind!

Ultimately, even though we all hope to be flying IFR in the main, dealing with a lot of weather in the VFR stages has been very useful.

Hope it helps...
Cheers
AD