Thai/Indo AirAsia & Lion Air

[El Lobo Solo]

Do they hire separately and do either hire expats? Then again, is Lion Air going to hire expats with their hugely planned foreign expansion or will they fill their cockpits with local guys?

[Chrome]

Thai/Indon AirAsia hires separately but I don't know if they hire expats. I don't think so.

I hear Lion Air has opened up for Malaysian pilots so I guess they're open for expats. Pay is USD7000 plus sector allowances, but no roster.

[speedtwoten]

Chrome, how and where to apply??? is it through agencies;)

[kwaiyai]

I would hazard a guess that Thai Air asia are unlikely to hire foreigners at the moment.

[Chrome]

speedtwoten, I don't really know exactly how to apply to Lion Air. I just heard this storiy from pilots in my airline who are thinking of leaving for Lion Air. I didn't ask them how to apply myself. But check Lion Air's website at http://www.lionair.co.id/profile_trainingcenter.htm lists an email address there you could try asking. Good luck.

[blade747]

Epa Lobo solo .. in Thai Air Asia I heard DCA doesn't want to hire expats pilots anymore, about Lion I know the company called some capts but probably because they flew there some years ago, however they refused to go.

[Gooneybird]

To the best of my knowledge Thailand has a policy that no foreigners may fly a Thai registered a/c commercially. Every pilot that does has an individual exemption from the appropriate ministry. That said it seems to be a case of needs must when they can't supply local crew.

[El Lobo Solo]

Good replies. Kind of what I expected to hear. I think Indo has the same restriction on hiring expats as Thailand. I sent a CV to Lion and Batavia a while back but never got any reply. I've heard many local guys are bailing to go to Lion while they're getting -900ERs but I don't know if they pay any better than anyone else.

[knma'91]

Lion Air is not hiring any expats at this time. I have been told keep an eye on the website for updates.

[kwaiyai]

In Thailand if you are non Thai and can work for a Company here then DCAT will give you a Validation based on your Normal Licence (they call it an Alternative Licence).

[ZFT]

To the best of my knowledge Thailand has a policy that no foreigners may fly a Thai registered a/c commercially. Every pilot that does has an individual exemption from the appropriate ministry. That said it seems to be a case of needs must when they can't supply local crew.


Policy - no. BKP, XO, and Kwaiyai's airline all have foreigners in both P1, P2 & P3 positions.

Air Asia were even operating internal services with Malaysan registered aircraft with Malaysian crews!!! Of course this was when Thaksin owned
Thai Air Asia!!!!

[uhtsky]

Everyone can fly here if the airlines need and I beleive that Thai DCA will allow.
But if the airlines can hire local pilots with the same salary or even less then why not?
Too many of my friends are interested but when they know the net income after tax --- no thanks they said.
Beleive me that everyone can fly but not everyone will accept the money if they can get somewhere more.
Cheers,
UHTSKY

[kwaiyai]

El Lobo,
Be careful in Indonesia cos Certain Companies will promise you a job before clearing it with the Authorities concerned. They dont understand employing Foreigners and dont check before wasting your time Lah, I know 1 guy who thankfully didnt get burnt Via Adam Air:*

[thornycactus]

I would hazard a guess that Thai Air asia are unlikely to hire foreigners at the moment.
Epa Lobo solo .. in Thai Air Asia I heard DCA doesn't want to hire expats pilots anymore, about Lion I know the company called some capts but probably because they flew there some years ago, however they refused to go.
Lion Air is not hiring any expats at this time. I have been told keep an eye on the website for updates.
El Lobo Solo, let me summarized in simple wordings, you can't get into these airlines! :hmm:

[mutt]

USD7k, are you sure????

Locals just got a payrise from $1,600 to $3,000 for left seat MD, they also have to sign non diminishing 5 year bond for the 737.

Mutt

[Metro man]

I have heard that you fly six days per week, 1400hrs per year in Indonesia.:ooh:

[El Lobo Solo]

Wow, that's a LOT of hours.

Thorny, thanks for putting it in simple terms.

[kwaiyai]

Metro Man, Be prepared to be Pushed hard and forget about Laws regarding FDP and max hrs. They seem to not exist in some companies:=

[340flyer]

guys just some information for a friend in Etihad, they are coming to the far east including BKK. Go see what they are offering could be good. with what is being said her its worth a try

[kefz]

try bard valley medjool dates.

[PK-KAR]

Pay is USD7000 plus sector allowances, but no roster.
That's the promise, the reality could be very different (except for the no roster, that's VERY true). Left seat guys in Garuda are currently being offered USD5000 total (80hrs) + 75k USD, and favouring goes to those with NG ratings.

PM me my friend, I haven't heard from you for a while and I may have a nice one lined up for your rating. If you wanna stay local, have you called Wings Air?

Chrome, how and where to apply?
For Lion, all the guy who played around last year! They're so desperate to fill the posts for their Indonesian ops it's ridiculous! They're trying to dry the pilot pool twice over! And they've scratched the rear belly of all their 739ERs in service to date! Aussie ops? Call their Aussie "partner" they announced a few weeks back.

Indo Air Asia are hiring by the way, but as locals, dunno if they're looking for expats, or expats willing to work as locals. 3K USD current, the guys there are saying it may go up to 4 - 5K soon as the company don't want guys to move to Lion.

I sent a CV to Lion and Batavia a while back but never got any reply. I've heard many local guys are bailing to go to Lion while they're getting -900ERs but I don't know if they pay any better than anyone else.
Lion's just trying to pull as many 73 rated pilots there are out there! Dishing out 50K USD to Captains who want to move, but seriously, don't kill yourself! NO ROSTERS! And current rates are 3 - 4K take home after tax for left seaters. If you're not type rated, expect them to put you on the M80, and again, no rosters, 6on/stdby + 1 off, and about 2.5K take home after tax.

Batavia is loosing pilots due to their low pay, keep tabs on them, they might open up to whoever soon! But don't expect high pay.

They dont understand employing Foreigners and dont check before wasting your time Lah, I know 1 guy who thankfully didnt get burnt Via Adam Air
Here's one advise for those wanting to try their luck in Indonesia... if you do get their offer, hire an expat handling agency to get your work and residency permits coz the airlines have absolutely no clue on this front... leave the airline to do the DGAC stuff... For the work permit, expect to fork out 2K USD though... for the DGAC stuff... no one knows. As for Adam Air, they're loosing pilots to Lion Air, as bad as Lion is, it's still better than Adam.

Locals just got a payrise from $1,600 to $3,000 for left seat MD, they also have to sign non diminishing 5 year bond for the 737.
New left seaters on the MD are getting $1.6k - 2.2k basic. 3K won't be there for your first 2 years min. For captaincy and rating the bond is at least 25k non diminishing 3-5 years depending on your luck, but I hear newhires are signing up to higher and longer bonds (some guy was willing to sign up for 1K salary as right seat, and 80K bond non diminishing for 20-25yrs to get his pilot schooling, and... Lion still don't know where they're gonna send this guy to!)

The pilot pool is drying up here that Indo Air Asia is now hiring old guard ex Twotters left seaters into the 733 right seat, pairing them with left seaters with <10K jet time (at least they didn't pick the totally bad bunch for the left seaters), and the left seaters are having a very very tense time most of the time. In their own words, "these guys are scary!" Not all, but a lot of them are.

however they refused to go.
That's not a surprise! The guys that left the Lion MD recently have also been called back. They find that as bad as 12Go is, they're not going back to Lion.

E-L-S,
In addition, Eagle Air is starting up, and Transwisata is revamping its ops. There is talk here that they might get expats due to the current sucking of the pool by Lion. But don't expect more than 5 years with these guys, by then, they'd have locals to take whichever seat you take.

I wouldn't put up much hope for Lion at the moment, this company prefers to spend money on headhunting pilots and promising high pay... they do give their transfer fees, but, they're not spending money into sorting out their rosters. OTP? What's that? Doesn't exist in Lion's universe... neither does the fact that wives need to know when their pilot hubbies are gonna be flying or be at home. Wives of senior left seaters actually prefer the no rosters, so their husbands can't plan their infidelity! They actually demanded Lion to do so!

1400hrs per year
Try 1600hrs actual and report 1000hrs ! It could be one of the airlines mentioned above!

These airlines still comply with 1x 24hrs off duty at home base for maximum 6 days consecutive duty days. You can choose to fly, but that's only after 4 legs and only if the end of the 4 legs is Jakarta *LOL*

Be careful on which company you choose here. 1 screw up by someone else in the company can be construed as you (flight crew) endangering passenger's lives... a hard landing as grounds for attempted manslaughter isn't too far fetched nowadays. As an expat, you're the easiest scapegoat!

Some companies are worth their words in gold! But those who are not, best not to even touch them with a bargepole.

Yours realistically,
-KAR

[El Lobo Solo]

Great post KAR. Thanks! :ok: I was wondering if you were still around. I've got to run, but I'll PM tonight. Hope all is well and happy new year!

Cheers.
ELS

[mutt]

some guy was willing to sign up for 1K salary as right seat, and 80K bond non diminishing for 20-25yrs

Is slavery still legal in Indonesia?

Mutt

[El Lobo Solo]

That's about $400 more a year than many people make here. $2 US per day is not uncommon. It's very sad.

[mutt]

Yep its sad...... but it has nothing to do with pilot salaries, if you want professionals, pay them as such, or at least treat them as such.

Is it any wonder that Indonesian Airlines are banned in Europe! (OK I know that they dont fly to Europe, but the ban affects European passengers and their insurance rights.)

Mutt

[El Lobo Solo]

I beg to differ. The local economy has a lot to do with pilot salaries. While I agree that pilots should ALL be paid like professionals and should be well compensated for what they do, you're not qualified to sit in the US or Europe, or wherever and comment on the pay locals get in another country. They don't hire expats. We've established that here. So, why then, would a company pay more than the bare minimum they need to fill the seat? They still need to pay within the local economy. You can't have some MD-80 captain making more than the CEO of a company. Most locals workers work 6 days a week, 12 hours a day. Many make about 500,000 rupiah a month. It's the way it is.

Besides, the post said "some guy", not "everyone". Go through this website and see how many shiny jet syndrome youngsters are willing to work for free. It's just the sad state of this industry. Hopefully, these carriers will need to raise their pay rates to recruit and retain crews in the future and the kids will realize that they deserve to be paid like professionals instead of drooling over a "widebody".

Cheers.

[mutt]

you're not qualified to sit in the US or Europe, or wherever and comment on the pay locals get in another country

Why not? Surely you should be fighting to improve your employment packages and not comparing them to non flying personnel?


Mutt

[PK-KAR]

Mutt,
The pay of 1K USD ain't fixed throughout the bond period, not much detail is known. We just know what numbers were thrown out by those spewing the details.

---
They don't hire expats, but sooner or later, it's gonna be cheaper to hire expats!

Lion may have had that silly 1K per month for someone with no license and a huge bond to pay for his education, but on the other hand, they're paying 50 - 75K for rated captains and 4 - 6K USD monthly total after tax under negotiation... but no roster.

I find the no roster as slavery, while the 1K a month on the rightseat for say the 1st 5 yrs isn't, and the bond is slavery again.
---
Mutt,
They are all fighting for improved pay packages. BUT, there is a limit to how much they get paid in comparison with the others. There are "acceptable ratios" in this industry based on the salary of the captains.

If these captains have a huge salaries, we would get captains running the company because they're paid higher. Ground staff would start shoving fingers at the faces of captains etc. If you look at F/A behaviour in this country, the behaviour between different airlines can be explained by these ratios.

On the other hand, you gotta keep tabs on what's the regional rates too, if you fall behind, people will move. It's a tricky balance to get!

If everyone gets paid equal, there'll be lots of airlines without pilots, because they can save a lot more at some countries.

The problem at the moment here is not the salary. Airlines can double it tomorrow and still survive. The sad thing is that ONE carrier prefers to throw out ridiculous transfer fees and tie these guys down with penal bonds!

It's cheaper for me to hire a foreigner for 3 years than to hire a local and pay those silly transfer fees!

Is it any wonder that Indonesian Airlines are banned in Europe!
At least we still got guys flying to Europe with other airlines, and do so safely!

PK-KAR

[mutt]

If these captains have a huge salaries, we would get captains running the company because they're paid higher. Ground staff would start shoving fingers at the faces of captains etc. If you look at F/A behaviour in this country, the behaviour between different airlines can be explained by these ratios.

Around here our management pilots are paid about 3 times the rate that a non-flying manager (same position) is earning. I would even hazzard a guess that the flying Vice Presidents earn more than the CEO! Its all to do with supply and demand. If we were to look at pilots versus FA's, well in some cases the difference in salary is approximately 21 times, yep i did say 21 times! So pilots should only look at the industry standard salary for pilots, nothing else!

I have seen the way that Lion treat their pilots, the lack of a roster is a disaster and not justifiable, how can they have a life?

We have quite a number of Indonesian pilots flying with us. Most came here not only to earn real money, but to gain the respect that their position deserves.

Indonesian aviation needs to wake up!

Selamat malam

Mutt

[PK-KAR]

I have seen the way that Lion treat their pilots, the lack of a roster is a disaster and not justifiable, how can they have a life?
Here's something that needs to be decided quickly by everyone in Lion...
What's more important?
1. Roster so you can have a life?
2. Better pay?
BOTH isn't the answer I'm looking for... everyone wants both, just wondering which one is more important at the moment.

[Chrome]

Isn't it against the law? Pilots must be provided rosters for them to plan their rest, essential and non-essential duties.

[mutt]

From what i understand, they just got about an 80% payrise (MD Captains), so now i reckon they deserve a roster, I cant see how this can be an impossible request for a scheduled airline.

Chrome... they get told today what they are doing tomorrow, but it roundtrip or 4 day pairing. 6 days on, 1 off.

Mutt

[PK-KAR]

Mutt,
Indeed, but the rise in Feb is a measly one... it's only a 30%-ish rise... to about 2.2K but that's for all crew, not just for the MD guys. April's another raise but I haven't heard about the actual numbers.... they're talking about another 30%...

The "roster" doesn't require a lot of investment, even with a dismal fleet reliability, if the bi-weekly roster only lasts for 48hrs, they should realize they're not doing enough on the maintenance and planning!

I wonder when will Lion realize that a roster would bring defuse a lot of the salary demands... then a pay rise of whatever amount will be welcomed instead of being dismissed as "just a sweetener."

Chrome,
Yes, the world of no roster means... you can go on 6 days standby, or be told tomorrow U're gonna fly for 1-4 days and U won't know if at the end of the 1-4 days U're gonna get a day off or another standby.