A dereliction of duty

[ORAC]

Sunday Telegraph: (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;jsessionid=GWTKLYIEABLZXQFIQMFSFFOAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/opinion/2008/01/13/dl1302.xml) A dereliction of duty

'My son was sent to war without the proper equipment being available." Those are the words of the father of Mark Wright, the corporal who, having behaved with conspicuous and commendable heroism, died of his wounds after a five-hour wait for the arrival of a helicopter capable of evacuating him and three critically injured comrades. When a helicopter finally arrived, it was American: there were no suitable British helicopters available.

News: Army hero left to die by failings at MoD (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=FYKCFNH1J1KXRQFIQMGCFF4AVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2008/01/13/nhero113.xml)

The failure to provide the resources needed to protect our troops is an appalling condemnation of the Military of Defence planners whose incompetence led to the shortage of helicopters that cost Cpl Wright his life. More fundamentally, it should be a profound source of shame to the Government whose refusal to fund the war in Afghanistan adequately has led to the disgraceful situation where wounded men such as Corporal Wright die because of a shortage of equipment.

When ministers order the Army to fight a war, soldiers are entitled to expect that, in return for risking their lives, everything possible will be done to take care of them should they be wounded. That is indeed what ministers promise they will do. It is not, however, what happens - as the official investigation into the death of Cpl Wright in action in Afghanistan, which we report today, demonstrates.

Cpl Wright's death is not an isolated incident. There have been several other cases where soldiers have died because the equipment that would have prevented their deaths was not available.

Accidents are inevitable in war. Deaths due to shortages of equipment, or incompetence in distributing it, are not. Labour ministers were responsible for deciding that, while it was worth sending British soldiers to fight in Afghanistan, it was not worth spending the extra money to provide them all with life-saving equipment. Those ministers have not tried to justify that decision, and no wonder: it has left them with blood on their hands.

[nigegilb]

The only place to effectively take on the MoD and Govt is in the courts.

[Wingswinger]

What sort of bonus do MoD Civil Servants get for coming up with ways of making savings on/reductions to the defence budget?

I think we should know.

[minigundiplomat]

It doesn't say if his son was in Iraq or Afghanistan, but if he was in Afghanistan there would have been a Chinook, with a team of medics including a surgeon on 30 min standby to pick hime up anywhare in the AO.

Weather, servicability and workload are just not a factor. The IRT IS OUR NO 1 PRIORITY.

We have picked injured soldiers from the middle of firefights and other difficult situations. However, if there is just too much 'activity' to preclude us landing, there is nothing we can do.

Interestingly, the US could not extract people in difficulty recently as the area was just too hot. Doesn't matter if you have 100 helicopters then!

Can't speak for Iraq.

[timex]

Found this ...........:mad::mad:


http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=86385.html

[WorkingHard]

Quite properly the politicians bear the ultimate responsibilty for this. There is a case as well for asking the military chiefs what they were doing about such equipment shortages. I appreciate it is is quite silly to suggest the chain of command would send troops in without bullets but where does the lack of equipment stop military actions? Not at bullets of course, but who decides on the risk v. lack of equipment? Not very well phrased but I trust you will see what I am asking. Is it ultimately the Chiefs of Staff who say "yes we are ready to go"? If so who are advising them that all is ready? Should they not be called to account since they are being paid to "manage" should scenarios?

[nigegilb]

minigun, would you care to comment on the following;

A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said: "At the time of the incident, all of the helicopters in theatre would have been fully equipped.

"However, a fault with another system, necessitated all of the winches being returned to the UK, as a matter of urgency, for inspection to ensure their reliability."

[minigundiplomat]

Timex,

I particularly like the bit about giving bonuses to attract retain the right kind of quality people. Doesn't that apply to the guys that pull the trigger then?
Don't get me wrong, I don't want the MOD manned by retards that can't find gainful employment anywhere else (though I suspect this makes up a large section of the Dept).
However, the Forces don't really try to compete with the civil sector and yet top flite people are attracted to a career within the military. Several of my friends have left recently (a sign of the times?) and have gone to very good jobs, including the City. Bonuses would have had no effect.

The MOD needs to get university output with no pre-concieved ideas, offer them a worthwile environment to cut their teeth before moving on to better things after 5-6 years.
Whomever it attracts, they need to be inducted into understanding the over-riding priority is the guy pulling the trigger, or worse still, the guy stood in front of the guy pulling the trigger.

[R 21]

Minigun

I think the incident was during the 3 Para Battle Groups deployment in summer 2006. If you remember it was the minefield incident near Kajaki Dam (I think) when the Chinnie came but couldn't get to them due to no winch being fitted. They had to wait for a winch equiped Blackhawk.

[glad rag]

A quotation from AARSE (if this is not acceptable would the mods delete it please)

"Is anyone suprised, although i think that we need to remember that the civil serpents who are getting these incredible bonuses will not be what i suppose you can call the 'front-line' guys, by that i mean the people that we in units work with regularly. They are paid just as ****e, if not worse than us and its not fair to pin any of this on them.

On the other hand, the fat cat civil serpents in main building need shooting, why should they get performance related bonuses when the MoD is in the sorry state its in. I dont want to go into the normal moans here but i feel i have to, how many sets of osprey body armour could one of those bonuses pay for, how many repairs to shoddy quarters and barrack blocks could it pay for, i could go on......"

[minigundiplomat]

R21

Yep remember it well, as does the handling pilot, a good mate of mine. That could be an equipment shortfall, though not in the way you think. There is an an issue, and I don't think Sea King or Merlin would have made a difference(don't really want to go into more detail).
Unless we purchase pave hawks for exactly this reason (gets my vote- but can't see it) then the guy is right. Not that helicopters aren't available, but because a specific capabilty isn't available.

[mustpost]

I am sorry, I am aware that I am not technically entitled to post on this thread, but the title interested me and I thoroughly agree with the sentiments here. However this should demonstrate what you're up against - from today's Mail on Sunday
'Fury as minister brands army kit shortage complaints 'absolute bollocks' in obscene Commons outburst'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=507941&in_page_id=1770

[Faithless]

A quotation from AARSE (if this is not acceptable would the mods delete it please)

Why would a mod delete it ? It's very true.. then i surpose the truth hurts does'nt it.

Story here also,
http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=7227717

[nigegilb]

minigun, I am sure it will come out in open court, but I simply do not understand why a decision on the servicability or otherwise of the chinner winch system can only be made in the UK.

Any thoughts?

[minigundiplomat]

nige

I know where your coming from but winch fitted to a chinny would have made no difference to the outcome, though may have had impact on the aircraft.
You want to be winched out of a minefield, you don't want the worlds biggest wind and vibration generator overhead... anymore than you would want a chinny turn up to winch you off a cliff which you have a very light grip on. We'll just finish the job, no matter how well meaning.

[KNG2007]

Mini

So what set off the mines that critically injured Mark Wright?

[blogger]

If you don't have the tools to do the job then don't do it.

Why Why Why do service personnel still put themselves at risk?

If someone said to me you have to hand over your bullet proof vest then I would also hand over my gun and sit down awaiting a replacement vest then pick my gun up again.

A police man on duty in London say would not go out on patrol with out an anti stab vest on, the union would be up in arm's. Take that guy last week told off for taking a risk saving that girl on the cliff face. He got told off for not using the right kit and putting himself at risk.

About time those in charge made it so that if you don't have 100% of the kit to do the job then its bumps on seats till the kit arrives........ but they have no balls do they.

Thats one of the reasons I PVR'd. No one looks after you so make sure you look after yourself No kit then say no to doing the job.

What are the bosses going to dso charge you :ok: Love to see it in court the Mod would loose big time.

[nigegilb]

The three soldiers who lost legs in the minefield are suing the MoD for £5 million for negligence.

I wonder how much it would have cost for a few batteries?????

I wish them well when they have their day in Court. In the case of Sgt Roberts, the cowards in the MoD settled out of Court. I sincerely hope, the whole sorry tale is told in public, as a lesson for the bean counters and politicians who decide what equipment our troops are given to go to war with.

[timex]

The three soldiers who lost legs in the minefield are suing the MoD for £5 million for negligence.

I hope it's £5 Million each...

[Tigs2]

The MOD will not allow the case to go through the courts, they will go to any means to get a settlement out of court, otherwise precedence will be set and the flood gates will be opened for other claims. The only way it will go all the way is if the 3 soldiers refuse any out of court offers and press on to the end with their claim. Sadley in the short term they would be faced with huge bills for legal services. A common trait of the MOD is to have its lawers 'string' things out with claimants in the hope that they (the claimant) run out of money and have to give up the case. Now if the 3 soldiers could get a good 'no win no fee' lawer then it would be game on.

The very best of luck to them. I dearly hope that they recieve the amount they are after.

[nigegilb]

Tigs, when the problems with legal aid costs with the Herc families became knowledge, the response was staggering. Some highly esteemed barristers came forward and offered their services free of charge. The real problem was the cost of the work done by the solicitor.

I am with you on this, I sincerely hope this is not settled out of court. We all need to know, what exactly a duty of care means and to what extent it exists on the battlefield. I fully expect the MoD to settle this one out of court, sadly it normally involves some kind of gagging order.

These paras have already shown how extraordinarily brave they are, could it be that this is the one?

This is what Ingram stated in a letter to HCDC on 30 Mar 06, in response to my own concerns expressed to HCDC earlier.

"...CSAR;

He is concerned about our CSAR capability for forthcoming operations in Afghanistan and alleges that the Afghanistan task "has all the hallmarks of a rushed deployment". There are rescue plans, but for reasons of operational security, and to protect our troops, I cannot provide details of them; I do not want to compromise the safety of our troops should a situation arise. In terms of our planning for the next stage of tasking in Afghanistan, you will have gathered from the evidence I provided on 7 Mar this year that our deployment of more troops to Afghanistan is long-planned and part of a coherent international plan...."

[Green Bottle 2]

Minigundiplomat Wrote:

It doesn't say if his son was in Iraq or Afghanistan, but if he was in Afghanistan there would have been a Chinook, with a team of medics including a surgeon on 30 min standby to pick hime up anywhare in the AO.

Weather, servicability and workload are just not a factor. The IRT IS OUR NO 1 PRIORITY.

Can't speak for Iraq.

For the record the same goes for the IRT in Iraq - it is our number 1 priority and Merlins carry a team of doctors, nurses and medics. It goes without saying we pull out all of the stops to get injured soldiers to hospital in the shortest possible time.

I am sure the Chinook crew did all that they could to try and recover Cpl Mark Wright and his colleagues - if there had been a way I'm sure they would have found it and made it happen.

GB2

[Pontius Navigator]

What sort of bonus do MoD Civil Servants get for coming up with ways of making savings on/reductions to the defence budget?

I think we should know.

Actually it is probably none.

The bonus system was imposed by the Treasury and heartily disliked as a pointless and divisive exercise.

The key to a bonus is meeting one's annual objectives that have been agreed with one's line manager. The harder the objectives the higher the bonus in one of only 4 layers - approximately these are £0 - £700 - £1200 - £1600. Peanuts really at the workers' grades.

A bonus can be awarded even is some objectives have not been met. Equally no bonus might be awarded even if all objectives are met.

Objectives are set and agreed in May (last year). When I get mine I will let you know how difficult they were.

PS, sorry I forgot, my Line Manager said he would not be setting objectives this year but would discuss our performance in the mid-year review in November.

PPS, sorry forgot again. He said he would not be doing a mid-year review as he did not believe in them, unless we wanted one. Man after my own heart.

[Duckandcover]

You've saved me the trouble Pontius......

[Riskman]

Originally Posted by Wingswinger http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3833956#post3833956)
What sort of bonus do MoD Civil Servants get for coming up with ways of making savings on/reductions to the defence budget?

You make it sound as though this was the sole remit of MoD civil servants.

WRT to the winch situation I would like to offer some conjecture.

The person i/c winches is dealing with winches not aircraft, and may not have had the benefit of a military officer in the decision chain who could point out the operational impact of withdrawing all winches from service simultaneously. Why the SEngOs concerned were ignored/didn't protest (delete as applicable) is also a mystery.

This is why it is so important for IPTs to have a military presence.

And for those dyed in the wool despisers of civil servants there are a lot of ex-military in the MoD; some of whom completely p**s off their colleagues because they focus on the front line not the bottom line.

[FormerFlake]

I was out on Saudi in 2003 with the F3s who were enforcing the southern no fly zone. One day all flying was cancelled as due to a few broken A10s there FOB commander decided there was not adequate CSAR cover. Another A10 was immediately flown in from Germany and flight resumed as soon as it was ready.

So the US Military wont put the people under their command into harms way without effective CSAR so why do the UK Military? When proper CSAR assets are not available the USAF pulled out all the stop to get aircraft into theatre at commendable speed. The RAF can't, they don't have the aircraft or the resources.

[flash8]

Glad the BOI set out the facts... straight.

However, this Government is absolutely shameless. Expect the white paint (always on tap with them) to be liberally applied.

Lads - my respects. Is their any sort of fund we can contribute to assist their legal battle?

[blogger]

A real shame. I had not seen the full story of what happened that sad day.

I just think to be there for 5 hours bleeding your life ebbing away, waiting ...and waiting.

You choose to serve but when things go wrong you just get cr@ped on. So glad my kids do not want to join the services.

[mr fish]

my son goes out to the "stan" in the very near future, but as i live in nottingham i should have no problem making sure he has the right kit- pistols, ak47s etc:}:}

[Chugalug2]

So glad my kids do not want to join the services.

blogger, You say what others like myself have dared not to, and to which I have to add; thank God for the kids of other parents who do! If ever there were a reason for the likes of us then, who come what may will be spared the anguish of Cpl Wright's parents and loved ones, to strive to ensure the quantity and quality of the kit with which his like are sent out to fight on our behalf, then this is it. In both regards there are woeful deficiencies. No-one in Whitehall should sleep at night until they are put right. Neither should we.

[RileyDove]

The report is quite damming - I cannot imagine what it was like for the guy dying there on the ground.

[nigegilb]

Thought I would post an extract of Sean's article on the tragedy written in June of last year.

Wounded British troops are being evacuated from the battlefield more slowly than the Americans managed in Vietnam 40 years ago, one of the Army's most senior surgeons has revealed.



Lt Col Paul Parker says hospitals could run out of blood, oxygen and drugs if more than two seriously wounded troops arrived at the same time

In a withering attack on defence medical policy, Lt Col Paul Parker condemned the treatment of injured troops in Iraq and Afghanistan as being "excessively slow". He blamed the delays on "too much middle management".

Several soldiers have died in Afghanistan following delays in deploying a helicopter and medical crew, The Sunday Telegraph has learnt.

Col Parker, an orthopaedic surgeon who has served on operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Balkans and Sierra Leone, said a fundamental failing of British defence policy was that the military still lacked a "dedicated all-weather medical helicopter fleet", specifically designed to rescue battlefield casualties.

He also said that British hospitals in Iraq and Afghanistan could not cope with mass casualty emergencies and could run out of blood, oxygen and drugs if more than two seriously wounded troops arrived at the same time.

Col Parker, 45, who is parachute-trained and has served on numerous special forces operations, is the first British officer publicly to voice his concerns over the treatment of casualties.

Writing in the Royal Army Medical Corps Journal, he said: "In Vietnam, wounded soldiers arrived in hospital within 25 minutes of injury. In Iraq in 2005, that figure is 110 minutes, on Operation Herrick IV, (Afghanistan 2006 ) the average pre-hospital time was seven hours. A casevac [casualty evacuation] request has to go through too many layers of command. There seems little point in providing high-technology in-hospital care when our patients still take several hours to travel a few miles to us.

"We use support or anti-tank helicopters that are re-roled on an ad hoc basis for the critical care and transport of our sickest patients. We still do not have a dedicated all-weather military helicopter evacuation fleet. Should we not be asking why? We have gone backwards in terms of our evacuation time-lines."

Col Parker said that the limitations of the medical facilities available in Afghanistan were such that just two seriously injured casualties could "exhaust" the available blood, drugs and oxygen kept at the main medical centre in Camp Bastion in only "17 hours".



Tony Blair promised that commanders in Afghanistan could have whatever equipment they needed to achieve their mission

He described the British ambulances as "antediluvian" and revealed that the laboratory at Camp Bastion, which is used to match blood and test samples, had to close between 11.30am and 3.30pm because the air-conditioning system could not keep the temperature below 97F (36C).

He also revealed that there had been no CT scanner, which is used in the diagnosis of brain injury, in the field hospital in Afghanistan for more than a year. A unit finally arrived in Helmand province this month.

Last year, Tony Blair promised that commanders in Afghanistan could have whatever equipment they needed to achieve their mission. He said in a radio interview: "Whatever package they want, we will do."

A senior colleague of Col Parker said that his report had the support of every member of the defence medical services and that it was regarded by the Ministry of Defence as an "inconvenient truth".

Last year, Cpl Mark Wright and six other soldiers spent six hours in a minefield in Afghanistan because no suitable helicopter was available to rescue them. Cpl Wright died of his injuries and three survivors had legs amputated.

[High_lander]

I know I won't be seeing a f****ng bonus. :*:*:*

As mentioned before, I had most delight in seeing Military and ex-Military Civil servents slugging it out with 'finance depts' and industry, focusing more on troops in slightly warm and dusty places rather then say, corporate logos or other frivalous items. Many civil servents do get mightly annoyed with the process and hoops needed to jump through to do their job.

I went to F'bough in 2006, Finmecanicca (and by default- AWhl) had a very nice looking CSAR cabin mockup of a AW101. The rear mounted 7.62/.50 cal folded down from the roof if I recall.

Infact, I remember standing there, waiting for something loud and fast to take off, and a Merlin crept up on everyone around us, no one heard it coming towards us, until someone pointed it when it was landing.

[Bootneck]

This is how certain MP's see the troops complaints. Perhaps this low-life should go and trot around a minefield. :mad:
The suffering of the troops caught in the minefield and the utter frustration of watching their colleague bleed to death is unimaginable.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=507941&in_page_id=1770

[South Bound]

Crikey, ballsy move to issue a UTI to remove all the winches from theatre at that time, I bet people kicked and screamed against that...

[StopStart]

Interesting point made by the col medic a few posts up; why don't we have dedicated casevac helos? Not knocking the good work done by the current helos in theatre but surely it would work better for everyone if we had a couple of medivac cabs on 24hr stby, fully kitted out and ready to go? That would free up the heavy lift to concentrate on the ops stuff.

I suppose such a request/idea would go in the same MoD tray as the requests for a battalion of sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads. Much further down the list than the MoD request for £1000 office chairs blah blah blah..... :sad:

Just a thought.

[BEagle]

You mean to say you still haven't received those sharks yet, Stoppers?